Episode 150: Liz Allan and Dev Chana - Learning, Listening and Leading the Next Era of EV Charging

Episode 150: Liz Allan and Dev Chana -  Learning, Listening and Leading the Next Era of EV Charging.

A massive thank you to E.ON Drive Infrastructure (Edri) for sponsoring this landmark 150th episode, and for making history with us as the very first face-to-face recording of the Electric Evolution Podcast.

Liz Allan speaks to Dev Chana, Managing Director of Edri to explore how the company is applying lessons from the sector to create a smarter, more customer-focused EV charging network. From ultra-rapid charging and site selection to megawatt-ready hardware, they discuss what it truly means to build infrastructure for tomorrow.

Dev Chana Bio:
Dev Chana is the Managing Director of E.ON Drive Infrastructure in the UK. With a career spanning energy trading, large-scale engineering, and clean tech startups, Dev brings a rare depth of experience to the EV infrastructure sector. His leadership at Edri is defined by a strong belief in learning from what hasn’t worked, embracing transparency, and delivering meaningful, long-term solutions for drivers. He is passionate about creating an EV charging experience that is as seamless, affordable, and accessible as possible.

Quote of the episode:
“We ask ourselves every time: are we building the network for today, or the network for tomorrow?”
Dev Chana, Managing Director, E.ON Drive Infrastructure.

Dev Chana Links:
Website: https://www.edri.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dev-chana-1228b94?
Edri LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/eon-drive-infrastructure

Transcript

Liz Allan  [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Electric Evolution with Liz Allan. Today marks our 150th episode, and we're celebrating with a landmark face-to-face conversation, sponsored by E.ON Drive Infrastructure, also known as Edri. They're leading the development of a sustainable EV charging network for E.ON. Backed by decades of energy expertise, Edri is putting E.ON's vision for a cleaner future into practice. The team's goal is to make public charging available for everyone, everywhere. This episode dives into how that vision becomes a reality and the questions that push the industry forward. And if you enjoy this episode, please don't forget to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Liz Allan  [00:00:38]:
Hi everyone, and thank you so much for joining me on this, which is the 150th episode of Electric Evolution. I really appreciate you joining us, and E.ON Drive Infrastructure does not just sponsor it. I have the wonderful Dev Chana joining me, Managing Director. So this is. We're actually having a face-to-face podcast, which has never happened before, so thank you. It's brilliant. We've met a couple of times before, haven't we? But today this is a bit of a milestone, so I'm quite excited.

Dev Chana [00:01:17]:
A big number. 150. Liz, congratulations to you, and I'm excited as well. Thanks for doing this.

Liz Allan  [00:01:22]:
So let's do my normal starter for 10 by talking about you and what your background was. What has life, working life, been like for Dev Chana so far?

Dev Chana [00:01:36]:
Yeah, yeah, I guess, I guess most people see me as an EV guy, but actually, fundamentally, that's not really how I describe myself from a working perspective. I'm generally more of an energy guy. I started life, I guess, fundamentally as a bit more of an oil broker many, many years ago when I fell out of university, traversed into the power and gas markets at that point, a bit of sort of futures trading and that sort of stuff. Did that for five years or so. That was fun. And then moved on to, I guess, another brokerage at that time, a slightly more sophisticated format of buying and purchasing power and gas. And then from there I ended up at another major utility. That was quite exciting because, for a couple of years, I was involved in large-scale mechanical and electrical engineering projects, specifically electrical resets of major airports here or large energy centres as well.

Dev Chana [00:02:24]:
And then within that, Liz, I then fell into the management team of a renewable power station. And I think for me at that point it was starting to gain a great appreciation between there's energy and this clean energy. And I think from that point my moral compass began to kick in as well. I was like, well, I've got to earn a living. I've fallen out of university, I'm starting to earn a living. There's a bit of a career formulating and bubbling here in energy, but actually I want it to be clean, I guess. And at that point, that was quite fun. It was an interesting power station because it had the largest cluster, cluster of data centers outside North America.

Dev Chana [00:03:01]:
Okay, there are several reasons for that, which I won't bore you with right now. But the point was I learned a lot about how you run a generation asset, and then from there I kind of thought, right, what do I want to go into next? But I want to stay clean. And for me, one thing was to go into potentially some sort of flexibility around energy assets, which is a huge topic right now. And it's something from a E.ON perspective that is really exciting for us as well. But I fundamentally moved into what we would see as a business, as an energy tech startup. And it's a business that was there to kind of optimise energy assets and support balancing, grid balancing services. And that was very exciting. It got me learning a little bit more about battery storage and various forms of clean generation.

Dev Chana [00:03:43]:
So still on theme in terms of clean tech. And then from there, I did fall into the EV space and enjoyed a business. I was there for probably four or five years or so, and I guess I started off there fundamentally selling electricity, EV charging equipment, hardware to other CPOs. And that was quite exciting because it got me interested in and learning more about the customer experience in terms of what they're doing, then the good work that CPO's are doing. And at that point, I then helped. I was on the startup team for that business's CPO offering there, and they're doing some wonderful work right now. I was always excited to watch what they do. And then that brought me across to E. here as well. So it's the business I run E on drive infrastructure.

Dev Chana [00:04:25]:
We are a UK CPO, a UK ChargePoint operator, but that's not really the true story. We're fundamentally a European wide chargepoint operator, but as a career history, Liz, in as few words as possible, I've been more of an energy guy. At some point I started to recognize if I'm going to earn a living, I want it to be clean, clean tech or sustainable, somehow sustainable. And that's how I've ended up where I am today.

Liz Allan  [00:04:47]:
Isn't it funny? A lot of people end up getting into their business of kind of renewables and sustainability and things like that through their own journey and recognizing it or even being challenged by their kids about that kind of thing. Why are you, you know, why. What are you doing, Daddy? What are you doing? I mean, you know, that kind of thing so makes a difference.

Dev Chana [00:05:09]:
No, I think you're, you're absolutely spot on. And I am a family guy. I've got, I've got three children at home, all under 10. And I think it's really interesting that certainly when I was in the schooling system, you were certainly told to pick up your litter and put it in the bin. Right. There was lots of sayings that went on at that time. The schooling of the education system is really quite exciting when it comes to really teaching our little people about being more sustainable and making active, conscious choices around that as well. So from my children's perspective, it's really good when they ask these questions in that space and they genuinely are excited about the sort of work I do.

Dev Chana [00:05:43]:
And actually for me that is really important because as a business leader here, we're hugely reliant on enthusiastic talent coming through. And that does start right down at base level with little people, I guess. Same sort of little people that are wandering around my house right now is that you've got to make them excited. And you're asking about my career history. This, for me, is the first time. I guess what I'm doing isn't a paper-based exercise. It's not just a. It exists. You can go out there, you can touch and feel it.

Dev Chana [00:06:13]:
You know, I can take my little people to say, This is how it works and look what it's doing to the car right now. I think there's an element of, 'Hey, I want it to become.' I wanted to focus more on clean technology and sustainability. But it is in the home, you want the little, you want to inspire people. Certainly from my perspective with my children, it's a case of actually this is a good thing to be doing.

Liz Allan  [00:06:32]:
Yeah, it's funny. I was with a friend recently who's got an EV, and her three-year-old was with us. She said, Oh, tell, tell, you know, tell Liz what you think about petrol cars. And she went. They're very smelly. So it just changes people's aspect. And the, you know, children growing up now are going to be the adults that are driving EVs, aren't they? And that's all they'll know.

Dev Chana [00:06:59]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:06:59]:
We talked about this. Before we started recording.

Dev Chana [00:07:01]:
No, you're spot on. Right, but I actually think that exists already. We've got a driver base out there that's never been in anything different. A petrol or diesel car. So actually their journey is like, well, isn't this how it's always been? No, it's not. This is not how it's always been. In fact, if anything, in our industry, from a CPO perspective, we're trying to make sure that customer experience is as good as it possibly can be. But you're right, the future is.

Dev Chana [00:07:25]:
People are never going to have experienced petrol or diesel vehicles in that space. They're only going to know electrification. And I don't even think it's coming in the future. I think it's happening right now. I absolutely know people whose first, their first vehicle, the first form of mobility in that sense, is an EV. I think it's really exciting because it's happening right now is.

Liz Allan  [00:07:44]:
And it's. It's that. That it's in. We're in a kind of funny time at the moment, aren't we? Where we've. We've a lot of people, and things are happening. You know, there are quite a lot of people who are already driving EVs. But then we're going to get to that tipping point where those negative views that have come through.

Liz Allan  [00:08:02]:
For some time that have honestly, been wrong or, you know, misinformation's been very rife. That seems to be changing, and we are getting a very different vibe now. So for what you're saying and the children that are growing up and people who are driving cars. That's their first one. I think that it is. It's a. It's a massive statement, really, to see where we are.

Dev Chana [00:08:27]:
Yeah. And I think, yeah, you're making two points then. I totally agree. I mean, to borrow your words, the funny point we're at is actually if we roll back 20, 30 years ago and we all think back, and I guess I'm making myself a bit of a dinosaur here.

Liz Allan  [00:08:43]:
No, not as old as me, love.

Dev Chana [00:08:45]:
I can tell you that you're a lady Liz. We will all remember the fact that you went to a. A forecourt and there was a diesel pump, but it was in the corner for your trucks, of your vans. Right. Every dispenser was selling you fuel, petrol. And actually there was a choice between probably leaded or unleaded.

Liz Allan  [00:09:03]:
Yeah.

Dev Chana [00:09:03]:
And then actually, as the mission went on or the journey went on for drivers out there, for all of us as drivers, I guess diesel started to fall into favour. And there were various tax benefits on company car schemes, benefit in kind or whatever. The point is, you shouldn't be driving that; you should be driving a diesel. So actually what we saw was the rise of the 2-litre 4-cylinder TDI engine, and there's a classic vehicle that sells reps up and down the country when bombing up and down the M1. Right. But the point is, from an infrastructure perspective, in that funny period there, you had a shift from seeing the diesel pump just in the corner. Actually, it's now on every one of those of us that may still be going to a petrol station or four core; you're there, and every single dispenser out there. So actually already our customer base has been through a bit of a funny period, to borrow that word again, which is actually they've shifted from maybe leaded or unleaded or unleaded to unleaded, then they've shift from petrol to diesel and actually now there's a market shift to the mass market customer traversing across to electrification as well. So it's not like it's foreign to us.

Dev Chana [00:10:05]:
We've definitely been there before. Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:10:09]:
And actually, we do talk about the fact that people don't like change, but like you've just kind of said, we've been through those levels of change before now anyway, haven't we? It's just people haven't. It seems different because you're not putting wet fuel in a car, whereas as you are plugging a car in and you don't have to necessarily go to a forecourt, you can go to lots of different places, you can go to a gym or you can go to a restaurant or you can go to, you know, kind of a service station if you want to.

Dev Chana [00:10:36]:
You know, as I commented on my view of the market, the consumer out there has already been through that sort of change as well, traversing from one type of fuel to another. But I think you're making a good point, which is that we're shifting from a wet fuel to something that fundamentally isn't a wet fuel. Do we call it a dry fuel? Maybe we do. But I totally recognise that for drivers out there, a vehicle, for a particular subsection of drivers out there, a car is a very emotive subject. Right. So this is where, in my opinion, we are getting some challenges or animosity in the sector, and I totally, totally get that, you know, something that I'm not afraid of admitting. I'm part of a car club. So I'm thrown into these conversations all the time when you go on track days and stuff like that. I say EVs are there, but I don't like them.

Dev Chana [00:11:17]:
And actually it's a case of when I'm listening to them, it's like, right, actually you're, you're anxious and nervous about change, and that's a normal human behaviour, right?

Liz Allan  [00:11:28]:
Yeah.

Dev Chana [00:11:28]:
So that's number one. And actually, what's driving that? Well, apart from the fact that vehicles are a very emotive subject for people, you know, and as Brits, we like our cars. Right, I get that. I think there's also an element where we have been throwing it at people slightly in the wrong way. You know, in the case of. There's a ban on petrol and diesel vehicles. I know it's really good to see that be reset back to 2030.

Dev Chana [00:11:51]:
But for your anxious or nervous driver out there, it's like, hang on a second, that's not what I want. Hang on, you're changing the rules of the game here slightly as well. And then you've got their preferred vehicle manufacturers. Increasingly, they're electrifying their drivetrains. So I'm saying, well, actually, these are the vehicles I used to buy, but I'm going into the dealer now, or I'm looking at the configurator online. I was like, I can't spec the engine spec I want anymore, actually. So instantly, like, hang on, my animosity is growing here slightly. And then you go to your company car schemes, which are saying, hey, actually, you can't buy it.

Dev Chana [00:12:23]:
You can't have that vehicle on your salary sacrifice scheme or whatever it is; it's an EV vehicle at the same time. Now, yes, as the leader of a Charge Point operator, music to my ears. But actually, remove yourself from that a second and think about your consumer base out there. Your consumer, a subsection of that community base, is saying, hold on a second, I'm nervous and anxious about that change. So I do, I totally get that. I really do. And I think that our journey is not to create division or animosity. It's actually to show these drivers to say, it's okay, it's absolutely fine.

Dev Chana [00:12:56]:
And actually, I do think, yes, of course there is a tone in certain sections of the media that isn't helpful. I totally get that. But I also think there's an increasing level of positive commentary coming out at the same time. And we've got some good personalities out there as well, waving the EV flag in the right way. For me, it is not to shove it down people's throats. It's actually just to give a consumer choice. If we roll back to the conversation we're having, people had a consumer choice to flip between petrol and diesel, right? You go make that decision. At the same time, it's the same thing.

Dev Chana [00:13:29]:
You have a consumer choice. Do you want to sit in a petrol or diesel vehicle, or do you want to sit in an EV? The question, I guess I'm asked every now and again, is, well, how'd you get more people in EVs? I'm like, is that the right question? But the way I think about it is just hand them a set of keys to an electric vehicle, get them in an EV. There's some genuinely fantastic vehicles out there, and actually, there's way more manufacturers coming across, not just into the UK, but Europe as a whole. So your consumer choice is starting to broaden out at the same time as well. Hand them the keys, let them enjoy that experience. I really think they will enjoy that experience. We're picking on little people early on, right? Little people. If I take my little boy as an example right now, all he's interested in is how fast it can go, right? And.

Liz Allan  [00:14:18]:
Oh, I bet, yeah.

Dev Chana [00:14:19]:
And if I.

Liz Allan  [00:14:20]:
How fast can it go, Daddy?

Dev Chana [00:14:22]:
And this is. This is it. This isn't. These. These are plain numbers.

Liz Allan  [00:14:24]:
No, I mean, how fast can it go?

Dev Chana [00:14:26]:
Yeah, Right. But there's the. There's the reality of it. When you think about your traditional petrol and diesel driver, who may have had an obsession with 0- 60 times, reasonably sprinty speeds are available at an arguably affordable price point versus an Italian supercar. Right. So it's actually quite accessible. So if I think back to those type of drivers out there that are just obsessed with going super fast, that 0 to 60 sprint, then you should probably come and try an EV really, really fast, because actually, that race is won by the EV. There's a bunch of other stuff that I think electric vehicles have some challenges on to get right from that consumer's perspective.

Dev Chana [00:15:10]:
But the good news, as I said, there's so much technology sprinting in that sector is catching up really, really fast. So I think there are ways of helping people traverse across, and I do think it's helping. I do think it's happening.

Liz Allan  [00:15:22]:
I think what I would say with regards to what you just said about cars themselves, to me, is also a. The fact that you're Joe Public. Sorry, I mean, you know, Joe and Joanne, who have never taken out an EV for a test drive. They want to understand the difference between a hybrid, a plug-in hybrid, an electric car, you know, because. So I was at an event near to both of us. We live quite closely together, don't we? Ironically. But I was at an event in Berkshire last weekend, there was a couple there, they just recently retired and they had a specific requirement of being able to fit a wheelchair in the back of their.

Dev Chana [00:16:12]:
Yeah, yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:16:13]:
They didn't know the difference between a plug-in hybrid and an electric, but they hadn't even managed to get the dealerships.

Dev Chana [00:16:21]:
Yeah, yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:16:21]:
To office. I can't believe the dealerships that they've been speaking to wouldn't get them on a test drive. So they'd been falling at the first hurdle.

Dev Chana [00:16:30]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:16:31]:
So. So actually I spent a bit of time with them and just said, right. And I was stood with a couple of other EV friends and we were just talking in general about regenerative braking, about kind of, you know, the charging experience and a variety of other things. And actually, I got an email from this guy yesterday saying thank you ever so much for your support.

Dev Chana [00:16:55]:
Super.

Liz Allan  [00:16:56]:
We've now decided not to go for a plug-in hybrid. We're going to go for an electric. And I said, if you want to take me on a test drive with you, I'll be happy to take you through that, you know. And they said yes. So, you know, this is what we need. We've got those people who don't want to change at the moment.

Dev Chana [00:17:14]:
It's okay.

Liz Allan  [00:17:15]:
Absolutely. And like you said about going, jumping in the car and having a test drive, please do it.

Dev Chana [00:17:20]:
So. So I think the key marker there is, is actually the buying process at the dealership has, has had improvement. Right. So actually the criticism a year or two ago was I'm going to buy a vehicle at a dealership and the sales individual doesn't really have the information I need. Okay. And actually if I think about the human element of the employee at the dealership, they've got a bunch of different technologies right in front of them. Okay. And the one they really understand is the one they've sold for decades and decades and decades, and the new one, it's just taking people time to understand the technical detail in and around that.

Dev Chana [00:17:58]:
Also, I understand the human element here is that when you're rocking up to a dealership to buy a vehicle, we've got so much information available at our fingertips in the digital age that we live in that your customers are probably likely turning up quite informed, often more informed at the same time as well. So I think from a dealer buying perspective, they've been going on a journey to retool. Re. Re. Educate the people kicking around there as well. So I understand the journey that your friends have had there. It's like I can't get the information I need. But look, I do think that everyone's getting better.

Dev Chana [00:18:30]:
So this is not me at all. slating in the dealer buying process. I think there's now a significant improvement when I go visit a dealership to understand how they're scripting these things. And the reality is, when you look at the month-on-month data, EV registrations are going up month on month. So I think from a strategy perspective, if you're a vehicle OEM selling vehicles, you're like, oh, I better educate my people and around that as well. If we think about your friends here, actually, they've been to an event there, they've got to sample a bunch of EV vehicles. That's really exciting. But they had a particular buying criteria, right? They had a buying criteria that was quite unique and quite special to them in the sense they needed to get a wheelchair into the back of the vehicle there.

Dev Chana [00:19:08]:
So I totally get. Actually, you want to go touch and feel that vehicle because it's a practical challenge that you might. It must be overcome. But from a mass market perspective, actually, and particularly the digital age we live in, do we have a consumer who actually wants to do that test drive at the moment? And this, I'm talking about an incoming consumer, is a vehicle now increasingly a bit more of a transactional choice? Maybe. I'm not entirely sure, but I think it's something we need to be conscious of, actually. You've got your traditional emotive-driven driver that may want the V8 with the noise and the gear blips and all of that; they're going to want that test drive. I get it. Right.

Dev Chana [00:19:46]:
They're going to want to read EVO magazine or whatever it is to say that's what that review came out. Right. I get that. I totally get that. But I do honestly believe we've got a significant proportion of drivers out there that it's actually a case of. I like conceptually how that vehicle looks. Actually, I think I can look at some pictures. I get it.

Dev Chana [00:20:04]:
The configurator gets me in the colour I need to get it on. It's probably likely on some sort of salary sacrifice tooling system at the same time. But most importantly for me, that's more affordable. There's a price point for me there versus what I've traditionally done, and that is the common denominator for all of us. It takes a huge level of emotion out of it right now. It's affordability. Right. So, actually, we've recently had an announcement today that the government said they're going to throw a little bit of money at EVs.

Dev Chana [00:20:31]:
There's a bit of money being thrown at local authorities, which is always super, and you know, as much as we always want a bit more. But that's okay. At least there's something there. And actually there's going to be a subsidy applied to EVs at the same time. There's a marker on that £37,000 and under. That's fine. But the reality is anything that we as a wider stakeholder engagement community can. What can be done to make it more affordable for drivers?.

Dev Chana [00:20:54]:
Is really important because that's the common playing field. It's wouldn't have escaped any of us that when you leave your house it's quite expensive out there, right? It is. There's everything is generally a little bit more costly than it was only a couple of years ago. And that is the one thing from an EV perspective. It's cheaper. Yeah. Right now versus everything else right now. So that is probably the area that I often talk about with your typical emotive driver.

Dev Chana [00:21:21]:
Who's driving the V8. And I do get it. Absolutely, I do. Is actually. Well, on your Monday to Friday 9 to 5 commute or you're sitting in traffic, go drive that EV. I promise you it's a significantly improved experience on your sunny Sunday. Totally get it. Totally get it.

Dev Chana [00:21:40]:
Right. Go have that experience. No one's taking that away from you. But there's some value on this side as well.

Liz Allan  [00:21:46]:
So, we're in Coventry recording this at the moment, and we, like I said, don't live very far away from one another. And normally because I've got a small battery in our Ioniq, I don't get loads and you know, I kind of get around in the summer I kind of get around 190 miles ish a day. It was about 210. So I even messaged my husband to go. Have you. I've got all these miles but this.

Liz Allan  [00:22:16]:
So, you know. So actually, as we go through these experiences as well, I'm still learning. I've been. I've been driving an EV now for over two years. I am still learning. It's. And. But I love the experience, and I AM one of those per cent, you know, is it 90% of people that never go back on 95%.

Dev Chana [00:22:34]:
It's a big number. Yeah, I would never say.

Liz Allan  [00:22:36]:
Yeah, I would never go back.

Dev Chana [00:22:37]:
You know, I think, I think this is another way of looking at this as well. And staying with that is our industry from a public charging perspective. We're in 2025. It's actually existed since probably about 2010, roughly speaking. I know for a number of us, we think, oh, it's just rocked up in the last 24 months or so. It really, really hasn't. What we've got is an increasing level of mass market customers turning up, and that's important to us. But the most glamorous vehicle available in 2010 was your G-Wiz.

Dev Chana [00:23:08]:
Okay.

Liz Allan  [00:23:08]:
Oh, my goodness.

Dev Chana [00:23:09]:
Yeah. If anyone remembers that. And then, then we definitely know who the dinosaurs in the room are. And I'm definitely in that camp. But the reality was that was the most glamorous vehicle available at that time, roughly speaking. Totally different world right now, right? Totally different world right now. I mean, you can buy Rolls-Royce on an electric drivetrain. So this isn't in a massive, it's not a huge timeline.

Dev Chana [00:23:30]:
And actually, then if you think about the fact, and I get excited, and you're calling the fellow at home, say it's broken through the 200. Yeah. Actually, most EVs that are out there are clear of 200 by a spare margin.

Liz Allan  [00:23:42]:
Absolutely.

Dev Chana [00:23:43]:
You know, and depending on how deep your pockets are, you're at 400 miles, really, for some of the more pricier stuff. But things are getting more affordable, actually. They are. And clearly we have the government subsidy today as well. At the same time, the mention of that supports that. So we all celebrate that. But the reality is the fact that you're calling someone enthusiastically is wonderful. But actually, what our industry is trying to get to is like that call never needs to happen.

Dev Chana [00:24:10]:
I know, I'm just so fun. 

Liz Allan

Because I'm a geek, you know, 

Dev Chana

Me too. I totally get that. And I'll get in my vehicle, and it will be a certain measure on what the temperature is today. I know what we're going to pull out of it. The draw the roads I prefer to take to eke out the efficiency. I do get it.

Dev Chana [00:24:26]:
But technology is moving really, really fast. And it is not just from a vehicle drivetrain perspective. Look, there are vans that the Far East and China they're developing that can charge at 500 kilowatts, right. I don't have any chargers in my current network that can get close to that; we will have next year. But the reality is there's a lot of exciting drivetrains coming in, not just from a range perspective but their ability to get juiced up super, super, super fast, so that there's some great work going on. But the reality is that we actually want to get to the point. It's not a conversation because range, range anxiety or charger anxiety isn't a thing.

Liz Allan  [00:25:06]:
Yeah. So perfect timing to talk to you about. So, you're on Zap Map and I was looking at the network. It's growing. You've not been around for a very long time. No, we're brand new, but you're growing it.

Liz Allan  [00:25:23]:
It looks like they're mostly ultra rapids.

Dev Chana [00:25:27]:
Yeah. So we've been going at some level of strength for probably around 24 months or so. Not a long time at all I think. I think for the average charge point operator, from the day they start to get the first charge on the ground, it takes about 18 months or so. So the fact that we've got 164 bays electrified in about 24 24-month period is something we do celebrate, actually. It shows that actually with the right people in the team and the right partners, you can get on the mission really, really quickly. If I break those numbers down a bit more, I suppose I want to know the ultra-rapid makeup of that. 138. So, 138 ultra-rapid bays are generally all connected to 300kW chargers as well.

Dev Chana [00:26:08]:
From our perspective, it is very much an ultra-rapid charging network for today. We will clear the 200 mark this year, no problem at all. Probably closer to 250 or so as well. So what we're trying to get to is be a meaningful network, actually. We want to get to the point that it doesn't matter where you are across the UK, and this clearly includes Northern Ireland as well. But across the UK, you're no more than somewhere in the region of about 50km to 75km from one of our ultra rapid chargers. So that's really the mission we're trying to get to. But you're right, 24 months or so at some level of strength.

Dev Chana [00:26:42]:
So we are brand new, but most of it's ultra rapid. We've clearly got some AC in the ground and we've got some rapid 50kW stuff on the ground. We're also doing that as well. So I'm not talking. It's not just an isolated ultra-rapid Network; the moniker that Edri has across Europe is charging for everyone everywhere.

Liz Allan  [00:27:02]:
Yes.

Dev Chana [00:27:03]:
And that's an inclusive comment in the sense that it needs to be on street AC as well as on the big hubs on major trunk roads as well. And equally, it's in your home as well, actually. From a E.ON Next perspective, bolting that charger to your house and making sure it's affordable from when you plug in at home at the same time.

Liz Allan  [00:27:19]:
I was going to say. So you've got, you've kind of. We'll come to your customers customer base in a minute but you've got. Because E.ON is a massive company, isn't it? Really massive, European and worldwide, and you're quite a small part of that. But being part of such a big organisation must give you so much confidence in what you're providing, you know.

Dev Chana [00:27:45]:
So yeah, it's worth noting that E.ON is a big German utility, actually, and we operate in a significant proportion of most European countries in some facet or another. From an Edri perspective, we operate in 11 countries across Europe, actually, and our mission is fundamentally that you'll be able to charge not just in the UK but across Europe. And the customer experience for us is really important. So harmonious. If you plug into kit here, you plug into kit in Italy, it's, it should feel the same, it should sound the same and actually they're doing pretty good at that. You're doing pretty good at that. So that's kind of the first, the first thing we're taking off in that sense. Within the UK, we have some huge privileges. E.ON is a brand that is making significant strides and effort to make the experience for the end consumer as affordable as possible.

Dev Chana [00:28:38]:
However, we're well connected to everybody else. What we're trying to do here is be on a common mission, which fundamentally is to help the UK become a low-carbon economy. And we're really doing that across every facet of what we do here at E.ON. But at the same time, not forgetting the consumer and that. Remember the conversation we had about 10 minutes ago, which is that it has to be affordable. It's got to be affordable. We've got some examples of that within the Edri business. From a general pricing perspective, we're about middle; actually, we're about average. We don't want to be too expensive, and we're working on ways to buy sensibly the power we buy into to drive to get that from middle to the lower end. And that will forever be the mission we're trying to achieve.

Dev Chana [00:29:19]:
But actually there's some other work going on. So when we open a site, we have a site opening offer that runs for a couple of months, and that's 39 pence per kilowatt hour. And what on an ultra-rapid. On an ultra-rapid blind. So if you go to. Yeah, and actually for me it's a case of well, it's good for the consumer, but actually what we're looking for is people to visit the site and critique it, tell us what we're doing right and tell us most importantly what we're doing wrong. Because kicking around for 24 months or so, we've had some huge privileges by copying with pride the other excellent work the other CPOs have done. Do not resent them, we celebrate their work and we want to copy with pride because I'm still an EV driver, I still use everyone else's care, and actually, so I celebrate everything there.

Dev Chana [00:30:02]:
But actually we want people to visit the sites to tell us what's working and what isn't working. Right now we're also experimenting with actually when that site offer moves across the standard pricing, what do we do to make sure anyone visiting those sites isn't kind of climbing back up a cliff, actually. So, so yeah, and I get it, right, I get it because most of my charging is done at home. I have the, I'm in that privilege percentage, I have the ability to, to home charge. But actually, when I'm out there, what we're looking at is some off-peak pricing at the same time as well. So maybe some dual pricing across the network there to drive greater value back into the consumer's pocket. Because I understand, actually, the biggest complaint we've when you read the headlines in the newspapers is that it's too expensive to charge on these ultra-rapid chargers; it'd be cheaper for me to be in a diesel. Not sure that's the correct argument, but the optics are there.

Dev Chana [00:30:52]:
So we're making huge strides to try and work find the efficiencies in our business to drive that value back into the customers pockets. And it's happening, it's happening right now.

Liz Allan  [00:31:01]:
So, so we've talked about the EV drivers who are your ultimate end customer. But if you talk about where, who you're, where your partnerships are and who you're predominantly working with.

Dev Chana [00:31:14]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:31:14]:
At the moment. Who would that be?

Dev Chana [00:31:16]:
You know so, so let's go back to the fact that when I made the comment a few seconds ago to Get a CPO started. To get your first charger bolt into the ground takes about 18 months. Now in reality, I get it. Everyone just says the optics are. That's where I'd put a charger point at a hole in the ground and expect for the charger to rock up.

Liz Allan  [00:31:36]:
It'd be boring around because that's how easy it is, isn't it?

Dev Chana [00:31:39]:
Apparently so. Right. It really isn't. And actually there's a lot of stakeholders to manage. We've all heard the conversation around grid. Do we have the right grid? Is it available? The power doesn't come and everyone's heard that before and that challenge hasn't gone away. In fact, it's getting worse because we're looking to put in more powerful equipment. So we're looking for bigger grid connections, but that's one thing.

Dev Chana [00:32:03]:
Then you've got some planning hurdles and the government's done some recent work which we celebrate to do a little bit more on a permitted development. Really good to see that. We celebrate that. But there's still some hurdles in a row around that as well. But ultimately, the biggest challenge we've got from all charge point operators is that we think we're in the business, or we think we need to bring electrical expertise to this. Now of course we do. We are. E.ON, we bring electrical expertise.

Dev Chana [00:32:27]:
But the reality of the slowdown for businesses like ours is we're really doing real estate deals. So when we find a plot of land and say that's where we want to put them in and we can talk about the metrics of what we think is a good or bad site later on. But the reality is you then got to go through some really painful legal process with real estate property people, and they've been doing this for decades and decades and decades so, they understand how to do it. So suddenly we've got to reverse our attitude, which is high voltage electrification right across into how do we do a lease deal on the property deal.

Liz Allan  [00:32:58]:
Oh, yes.

Dev Chana [00:32:58]:
So this is where, going back to your question, the right partners are so, so important, actually, because we've had to learn really fast around how you navigate the real estate industry. Actually, how you navigate that is picking the right people to partner with. So we have a handful of people out there that support us in finding the right sites. Really important to us. A good example of that is our friends over at the EV network. Actually, they've really helped get our network started. So we've learned an incredible amount from them. At the same time, they've learned an incredible amount from us to say we don't want to do it the way that CPO did it or how you did it for that CPO.

Dev Chana [00:33:33]:
We want to do it this way because we believe that's right for the customer experience. So that partnership, Liz, it's really important to two way conversation at the same time. But you've got to trust everyone and that's the thing. So who are the partners? There's loads of partners out there. We've slimmed that right down because we've had admittedly some painful lessons. Right, that's okay.

Liz Allan  [00:33:51]:
Yeah.

Dev Chana [00:33:52]:
There's nothing wrong with experimenting. And because we've got to learn from our failures and say, yeah, we're not a good fit for each other, that's okay. But we've got a small pool of people that we work with are like, yep, they know what we're looking for when it comes from the site dynamics. And equally we know actually how they will help us drive value and help us to go as fast as we possibly can.

Liz Allan  [00:34:13]:
But it's, but it's good that now we're so far forward that you're able to take those lessons learned not just from your kind of experiences but from what you've seen previously across the other networks and kind of actually be able to recognise what a best practice looks like, what you want the customer experience to look like and also what you want your own partnership to look like with other organisations in your supply chain.

Dev Chana [00:34:40]:
You know, you're right. And I think if when we first started the mission in the uk there was a challenge laid to us to say the UK from a charge point operator perspective, it's too competitive, it's too aggressive, it's too expensive and certainly from my team and there's not many of us kicking around the E on drive infrastructure uk, we had to have a bunch of passionate voices that say, no, they're all wrong. We totally believe in this. Let's go do it. Let's go do it. I actually think there's still room for other CPOs to kickstart here because, actually, if you look at the strategy data, certainly from 2030 onwards, it says everyone's going to be having a good time, utilisation is going to be fantastic. Just quite a bit of a delta to go from here to there. That, that, that time point as well.

Dev Chana [00:35:26]:
You know, when we first kick started this business, which as it was not long ago, it was a case of gosh, we better scramble and go find some sites. Right. Because you can't do anything with just finding some Sites. And I have to admit we probably weren't as critical of the sites as we are now. And what I mean by that is a case of, well, we've got a site, let's just get on the mission and think about electrifying it. But what we've got, we've become very passionate about ensuring is that the right place to put a charger from a customer experience perspective. I've worked in the industry probably seven, eight years or so now, and actually I've been an EV driver for at least that time as well. We've got an element where there are chargers that have been bunged in the back of leisure centre car parks.

Dev Chana [00:36:10]:
Right. And pubs and things or whatever. I get it. They probably had the same attitude we did when we kick started this 24 months ago. It's a case of it just needs a charger, if that's what the landlord's saying, to put it in the corner over there where there's no lighting. When it rains, there's puddles or ponds created. We maybe didn't quite have that attitude when we first kick started, but right now we believe we have a very sophisticated process. So, the lessons learned have been sites that we initially identified as good, not too long ago, 18 to 24 months ago, when we said, 'Yeah, that's a good site.'

Dev Chana [00:36:41]:
We don't have anything there because we're just getting started, there's nothing anywhere. Let's go do it. We're now saying, or we're getting braver saying, you know what, that's just not the right site for the network of tomorrow. And I think this is the question that we ask ourselves as a team all the time is are we building the network for today? Are we building the network for tomorrow? And I think if you're building it for today, you're going to take some shortcuts because it justifies and you get to a meaningful network really fast. But if you're building the network for tomorrow, you're highly more. You're significantly more critical of your efforts. And that in our sense has turned up what we believe is the site quality.

Liz Allan  [00:37:18]:
I think future proofing your sites is a really, really good point because you're guiding; you're guiding the business to make sure that it is future proofing full stop, aren't you?

Dev Chana [00:37:34]:
Yeah. And I think future proofing has, has so many layers to it, I guess. And I think first of all is actually where do we think the traffic's going to be? It's a pretty obvious one. Right. So there's always that metric around traffic flow and actually ensuring that that pathway has a sensible level of vehicles to visit the site. But it's not. You don't just end there when you're looking at that vehicle or that traffic flow. It's case of what type of vehicles are moving around.

Dev Chana [00:38:02]:
Is it some type of fleet? Is it a van, for example, or is it a truck? And we can talk about those sort of customer types in a second as well. So you're critiquing not just the number of traffic flow, but what type of vehicles. And what I mean by that is increasingly. And I love the conversation around pass compliance. Right, I love it. But, but actually when we started the mission, what we, what we said was, okay, well we should try and make the bays as wide as we possibly can. Right. And be compliant.

Dev Chana [00:38:27]:
But what we noticed was an increasing level of electric vans turning up to the site. So they don't quite need the width, they need the length because the vehicles are long.

Liz Allan  [00:38:36]:
Is that true?

Dev Chana [00:38:37]:
Right. And you don't want them to jut out the bays and create some sort of hazard in your car park. So for us as well, it was a case of, oh, hold on, we weren't expecting this type of customer base here, but they are here. Fantastic. How do we serve them better? So once you're looking at the traffic flow and you're cutting that data out, you're starting to think about this isn't just about passenger vehicles. It's actually the other type of fleets kicking around at the same time. And then when you're thinking about future proofing, well, right now we're wedded to 300kW charges. Next year we may make the decision to go up to 400 kilowatts.

Dev Chana [00:39:12]:
I would like us to get to the point quite quickly. And that's the mission we're on. To be deploying thousand kilowatt equipment that has the ability to charge up to that. Because that is for us, future proofing the network or the hubs. The fact that actually if we have a vehicle turns up and it's isolated on its site on its own, it can take the full power of that. So there's a huge reliance on future proofing that happens within E on within a laboratory that we have. It's based over in Essen in Germany. It's literally called the E.ON lab.

Dev Chana [00:39:43]:
It's a 3meg connected facility. So it's big. If I were to suggest to anyone that gets an opportunity to visit it, particularly if you're some sort of energy or EV geek, like I am. Like we are, yeah, we. I absolutely would love to take people there because it's a facility, as I said, the largest in Europe and we've got every type of energy assets sitting in it. So, first of all, it's not just chargers, it's solar batteries, heat pumps, inverters, the words. You know, you can get plenty of trucks into the facility as well. But why are we doing that? So that is there, and every single charger is there.

Dev Chana [00:40:17]:
It's our way of not just taking the manufacturer's testing around how they've deployed, how they've developed and engineered that equipment. It's our way of saying we're not going to let it out into the public space until we've tested it. Now, the guys and girls in the lab, incredibly smart people and I think they take a, maybe a sense of enjoyment in giving a piece of kit a really hard time. Climate change, the way it's trying to break it. But the reassurance we've got is once it's been through the lab testing, actually when we deploy it out in our field, it should be fit for purpose for what we need to do today, but most importantly tomorrow. So right now we have an Alpatron 8000 kilowatt charger in the lab at the moment. Really exciting. A lot of us from across Edri are keeping an eye on the testing of the equipment.

Dev Chana [00:40:59]:
And that for me is a case of from future proofing, do we skip the 400kW charge and just slip straight away to deploying big power dispenser units that can go right up to that? And that is, if we look at where the drivetrains that are incoming from the Far east, we see all the headlines in the papers, BYD thousand kilowatt charging. That's great. I think there's a bit of a mission to go on to get that normalised and deployed here. But the reality is it's reminding us we're building the network for tomorrow. And I think we've got to be sensitive to that. At the same time, I saw.

Liz Allan  [00:41:33]:
Because we were talking about this before, weren't we? I saw about that. You actually had that. It was an Alpatronic, wasn't it, on LinkedIn?

Dev Chana [00:41:40]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:41:41]:
So I was, I was thinking about the fact that these megawatt chargers could provide power to a massive truck. And I know Amy Carter, who, who works as operations manager at DAF, and she's got, they've got some amazing products. But to think that we've gone from, you know, for that period of, you know, all those years of what we, we've had kind of drip feed charges, I'd call it, right up to this megawatt, it just is mind blowing.

Dev Chana [00:42:12]:
It is. It's a big, big number. It really is. And actually from a truck electrification perspective, that's something IDRI right across Europe is taking seriously. That's an absolutely a part of the space we, we are already participating in. If you go to Denmark, Sweden, Czechia and Germany, we have sites that are dedicated to e truck within the uk we've begun the mission and actually we've got a bunch of man depots that we'll electrify over the coming couple of months as well. And we're going to go bigger than that. We absolutely do.

Dev Chana [00:42:43]:
So we totally believe in truck electrification. There is from a drivetrain perspective, they're engineered to be able to take some big power. Right, I get it. And that's why future proofing a site with the ability to go up to big power if you've got the space for a truck to maneuver is super important. But also we have to be conscious of the fact that grid availability across the UK can get constrained and there is the privilege of these dynamic chargers that actually say, oh look, if you're an isolated truck in this example and you've turned up in the middle of the night and there's no one there that's going to give you the 4,000 kilowatts, right, no issue at all. But actually if it's peak usage during the daytime, what, what the chart, these, these charges are able to do is dynamically load manage the charge, the, the, the power output across what the vehic for. So as we all know, if the vehicle's turning up with an 80% state of charge, it's only going to need X amount of power being thrown at it, whereas if it's turning up at 20%, the charger is able to load manage dynamically. So you're going to get all of it.

Dev Chana [00:43:45]:
So I think there's an element of absolutely chasing after some big power if that's the type of vehicle turning up. But there's also, probably more importantly for us here in the UK is managing that power in a more intelligent way. And that's what this type of kit, these type of chargers allow us to do is be a little bit more sensible and efficient with providing the right power that the vehicle's asking for. Because look, we've got, you know, I've certainly got instances in an EV that I've driven to one of our sides where actually it's achieving a really high state of charge or a charging curve. And I've disappeared in to get a coffee. By the time I've got the coffee and I've sat down and I'm loading up the car app, I'm like, that's more electricity than I was planning on putting in, actually. So I think there's also period that we're going to hit, and I think maybe we're hitting it already where there's some really smart drivetrains out there and some really good kit and when you marry them together, you. You.

Dev Chana [00:44:42]:
You've actually not got enough time to what you stereotypically would have previously thought. I'm. I've got enough time to get that flat white in me. And it replied to a couple of emails. So I also, I think we need to be careful equally around chasing after big power at the same time. So what that comes down to is what is the right type of charging hardware or kit for the environment and the customer experience there as well. So I get it. There's been an obsession from CPOs for a few years, but chasing after some of the big numbers, and I love celebrating that and I love seeing some of the big numbers come down.

Dev Chana [00:45:15]:
And I think a lot of the consumers out there draws the headlines, but we've got consumers equally savvy now to say, actually, is it just about those big numbers or what's my charging customer experience at that site? I mean, I might be getting 400 kilowatts, but actually I've been bunged around the back here and it's not particularly fine and I don't feel safe.

Liz Allan  [00:45:33]:
Yeah, yeah, it's that because I was just thinking you've got. You're already testing this Alpatronic megawatt charger, and then you. But. So that'll go to one specific site maybe, and then. But then you've got other sites, haven't you, Like Tim Hortons. You've got quite a few Tim Hortons up in Scotland. So their requirements are going to be different. And it isn't just a one size fits all because, you know, so it looks like you're kind of making sure that you are following that.

Dev Chana [00:46:03]:
Yeah, yeah. So I think, I think for us, first of all is we've got five sites up in Scotland. No, sorry, seven sites up in Scotland, five of them across the uk. We're on a Tim Hortons site. Right. So. But actually for us, it's a case of we're a UK network, so that, remember, that includes England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as well. And we recently opened our first Northern Ireland charging facility as well.

Dev Chana [00:46:27]:
So this is genuinely for us, we are covering that entire geography. Tim Hortons is a fantastic relationship for us because first of all, much thanks to our partner EVM for introducing us to that setup. But what it does mean for us is that customer experience is, we believe, quite strong at that type of environment. So first of all, when the E-Tron goes in, we're going to be very cognisant of the fact that these bays should be engineered, designed and installed in a way where they're PAS compliant or certainly as close as we can to be. So they're improved accessibility. That's mission one. But also, don't forget, you know, in reality, despite how fast the charges are, 300kW units, in reality, you're still hanging around for a little while. And actually that customer experience in a Tim Hortons or any of our sites, there's always something to do.

Dev Chana [00:47:18]:
There's always something to do. Get a good coffee, get a bite to eat. My user habit changes depending on the type of EV I'm in and the people flicking around. If it's just, if it's just me, I know I'm going to need a coffee and I want a table to get the laptop out so I can clear off some emails. I really enjoy the charging experience because I think a lot of us out there get email anxiety. I can hear my phone digging away, so I'm like, right, I need to stop and park the car and charge up for a while, but I'm going to need some caffeine at the same time. However, if I've got my three kids in tow and a dog actually at the same time, no, they are not the right size for me. I need somewhere that's a bit more open.

Dev Chana [00:47:56]:
I can let the kids run around. We have those charging sites as well. So it's us being cognisant of the fact that we've got a bunch of different users out there and that charging experience for them is different, but it needs to be positive for everyone. And that for us isn't just an obsession. That's why we've got the Tim Hortons relationship and we've got a bunch of other sides at the same time. It's not just them in isolation, where we've always got something to do. And the simple thing is you don't need A hygiene break, that's one thing we increasingly now, as we're looking and critiquing our sides is fine. It's good to have a coffee, it's good to get a sandwich, it's good to be able to get the laptop out, it's good to give the dog a run, it's good to get the kids out, stretch their legs.

Dev Chana [00:48:37]:
But actually the hygiene break for us is sense to always be at the top of the mix at the same time as well.

Liz Allan  [00:48:42]:
I always talk about the range of my bladder.

Dev Chana [00:48:44]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:48:45]:
You know, it's the thing, isn't it?

Dev Chana [00:48:47]:
The human fails now before, before the car does. That's the point that we've got with the technology here.

Liz Allan  [00:48:53]:
But what I love now is that the fact, the fact that we've got so many opportunities to do things differently, to have different experiences. Like you just said, you're in the car, you're with your kids, you're in the car on your own, you are in the car with colleagues or whatever. So actually the fact that you don't have to be ruled by a petrol station, that literally, yes, you've got to go in and, and you know, it's, it's at the moment, it's a quicker experience, but it's not particularly nice. Whereas you can rock up at a country park, for example, and take your dog for a walk and have the kids running around and there's still conveniences there. Or you can go to the gym, or you can go to a theatre, and there will be somewhere you can't put a petrol station in, you know, in the middle of a gym.

Dev Chana [00:49:43]:
Yeah. You know, but I, I get, I. Absolutely. I think there's some. Really, first of all, I understand why we've got a bunch of charge point operators out there and equally some of the oil majors as well that have electrified their forecourts.

Liz Allan  [00:49:56]:
Yeah, and that makes sense.

Dev Chana [00:49:57]:
Totally does. And I, I do get it because actually, first of all, you've got, you're already on the road of a reasonably solid customer experience. I don't think the best one. But you, you're on the mission there. Right.

Liz Allan  [00:50:08]:
And you know, people are going to turn up.

Dev Chana [00:50:09]:
Absolutely.

Liz Allan  [00:50:10]:
Because that's what their use case was, wasn't it?

Dev Chana [00:50:13]:
There you go. So that consumer habit, particularly if you've got the incoming mass market adoption going on, you've got people first time in an EV, what they're used to is going to a forecourt. Right. And at the forecourt, they know they're going to be able to get a packet of crisps. They'll be able to get some sort of coffee out the automated Costa machine. No judgment on how good or bad that caffeine is. It's fine. And likely there'll be a toilet there at the same time.

Dev Chana [00:50:33]:
Yeah, but also, I get it, they're lit up, there's a canopy over it as well. Maybe if you need some assistance, you can. You can ask for some assistance from one of the staff members. So there is a huge degree of positivity in the traditional space. But do we believe that is the EV4 core of the future? No, I don't. Because crossing them is taking away some of the benefits that if you have a bespoke EV hub, you're significantly ahead because you've built and designed and engineered that site for the EV driver. And the reality is it's probably better. The petrol diesel fueling experience is faster because as you said, they're not the best environments to be hanging around in anyway.

Dev Chana [00:51:14]:
They're not pleasant. You're not going to let your kids and dog run around in that space, right?

Liz Allan  [00:51:18]:
Do that, couldn't you?

Dev Chana [00:51:19]:
Exactly.

Liz Allan  [00:51:20]:
It's too dangerous.

Dev Chana [00:51:21]:
But they also, there's limitations from an engineering perspective that to build that site bigger is really hard. I know a bunch of us have electrified some traditional petrol station forecourts and a bunch of us generally try to avoid them because there's risks underneath the ground. So once you've electrified a forecourt with the. The three, four bays in the corner, whatever it is, it's kind of. It. It's really hard to tackle those sites. So having bespoke purpose built sites is better, not just for the consumer, but actually better for the CPO at the same time as well. Because you get to do it the right way.

Liz Allan  [00:51:56]:
Yeah, yeah. And you're leading from the off, so. Looking ahead, what would you say are the biggest opportunities for growth or disruption for Edri in the future?

Dev Chana [00:52:09]:
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think there was a. We kind of picked on this earlier on, actually. It was a case of when we first started evaluating the sites and building the network, what we're really thinking of people just like us driving around passenger vehicles and we've had to get critique ourselves a little bit more to say, well, if we look at the current type of people rocking up to the sides, fine. The passenger experiences, we believe we're on the right path. We believe we're. We're getting a lot of it. Right.

Dev Chana [00:52:36]:
Not all of it, but we believe we're getting a lot of it. Right. And if you go on the ZapMap ratings or even just in Google, we're generally four stars plus fundamentally. So it's good. So we know from the passenger experience, the network that we've got currently in place and we're building, definitely something is going proper. We're getting that right. But actually, where's the opportunity lie? So one thing we didn't quite appreciate was the level of electric vans or those type of fleets that would turn up to same time. And that's really exciting.

Dev Chana [00:53:06]:
I think, not just for us, but any CPO out there is actually major fleets are electrifying in that space. So for us it's a case of we're working and we're doing some work right now to develop a fleet proposition because we think actually we, we clearly want them to use the charging infrastructure at the same time. In reality these, these type of logistics businesses are really the backbone of how we get stuff delivered to us right across the uk. So anything we can do to electrification and improve the EV experience for them is just as important. So that for us, they're under the magnifying glass for us right now. So that is where we believe we need to put a bit more work into and we're working on that right now to put some infrastructure into the site that's going to help those guys and girls make that journey to electrify their fleet much easier. E.ON's a good example. Right.

Dev Chana [00:53:54]:
We've got 33% of our van fleet is electrified right now. We will get to 100% really, really fast. That's happening as it stands because we're enjoying that journey. At the same time, if you go to the customer car set up here, I think like 98% of our vehicles are electric as well. So we're already on that mission in fleet perspective. Huge learning going on. So Liz, in answer to your question, where's the future lies? I think we've got to understand that fleet, fleet buying, fleet process a little bit better.

Liz Allan  [00:54:23]:
And I saw out on your car park you've got lots of electric vans. I am currently charging on one of your chargers, which is fantastic. And that was great to come here and know that, you know that I'd be able to have a fully charged car when I was, when I was heading back.

Dev Chana [00:54:36]:
Yeah. So I think that's the key thing that we need to always remind ourselves actually the privilege with an EV is it's giving you the flexibility to know the car's going to have a full range over the period coming few minutes or so. But actually you can go occupy yourself with doing something else more useful or more interesting. I use my example earlier that if it's just me doing some sort of run up, up and down the country, I've got the opportunity to clear off some emails actually, while the 15th, 20 minutes or so the vehicle's getting juiced up. And in your case, we're here right now, we're having a lovely conversation. But you know, by the time you leave, your battery's going to be full, it's spinning and it is pretty. But that is also trying to remind ourselves that actually it doesn't matter if it's going to take more than 30 seconds to fuel up the vehicle, you can actually do something more productive with that time.

Dev Chana [00:55:24]:
And I think that for us is trying to remind people or getting people on the journey of this is a different user experience and the faster people understand that and actually accept. Look, we're not going to get that type of fueling experience right now from how we were in the petrol and diesel world. It's different. Actually, that's okay because it's just showing them a world of, well, look at it. What else can be going on right now? And let's not forget, look, the reality is 38% of drivers at the moment do not have access to Chrome charging. That is something that needs addressing and there's some good work going on there to try and find ways to address that. But that means a significant chunk of people actually do have the ability to home charge. As we mentioned earlier, there's some really sensible tariffs out there to drive that affordability mechanism back into people's pockets.

Dev Chana [00:56:14]:
But actually, you can wake up. We are waking up every morning with a full tank if that's what we choose to do.

Liz Allan  [00:56:19]:
I did this morning.

Dev Chana [00:56:20]:
Yeah, exactly. And actually, that's financially better for us because it's cheaper to charge at home. Our mission at Edri is to find ways to take your home tariff and deploy it on our network. That is work that's going on right now. We are a big utility company. It's well within our remit to find a path through that, but it's all driven by that. Key thing from a consumer perspective within E on is affordability. Affordability, affordability.

Liz Allan  [00:56:48]:
I'm going to follow on with that, but with a question for you.

Dev Chana [00:56:52]:
Okay.

Liz Allan  [00:56:53]:
Personal question for you.

Dev Chana [00:56:54]:
Oh, no, all right.

Liz Allan  [00:56:55]:
No, no, don't worry, don't worry. What? Because you are quite a driven person in a really good way. What inspires you to push your own boundaries?

Dev Chana [00:57:07]:
Oh, that's so easy every day. Yeah. So actually, when I made the comment earlier, it was when we first started. The CPO business for Edri here in the UK. And as I mentioned earlier, the. The critique's comment was that it's too expensive, too late, too aggressive, and so on.

Dev Chana [00:57:23]:
Right. And actually, certainly from a personal perspective, I was like, no, I don't think so. I think we're up for the fight. What really pushes me is actually the tea. There aren't many of us kicking around eagerly. There are only 11 of us. So I think that baffles most other CPO business leaders out there that we're actually building this network with quite a lean team. But it's relevant to the fact that you need some really sensible partners to help you support that journey.

Dev Chana [00:57:44]:
But for me personally, it's the enthusiasm and passion that I get from the people that I'm working with. Genuinely, people have a viewpoint that it's our business. It's not an E.ON business. Of course it is an E.ON business, but the enthusiasm, passion within the team is a case of, I think we need to do it this way. Dev or. I don't think that's quite right. Dev or Dev. Can we nudge that this way? Absolutely, of course we can, because I guess I jokingly made that comment earlier.

Dev Chana [00:58:05]:
Am I the dinosaur in the room? Actually, I don't want to go extinct, so listening to the people around me is super, super important. So, Liz, conceptually, what drove me is that I want to challenge the status quo, so I think we can do this. But actually, what refreshes and resets that for me daily is the people kicking around. In a small team, you've got say. I think we can do it better. I think you're right. Let's go do that.

Liz Allan  [00:58:27]:
Right, so next question. If, and I know you, I think you're probably doing a lot of this anyway. If you had the opportunity to go back in time, well, even now or even in future, to build the ultimate charging hub.

Dev Chana [00:58:44]:
Okay.

Liz Allan  [00:58:44]:
For the best customer experience, the best design, the best, you know.

Dev Chana [00:58:50]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:58:50]:
Everything. What would that be? What would that look like?

Dev Chana [00:58:53]:
You know what I think? I think we're already on the mission of starting to achieve that. What do I mean, first of all, really, the work that we've done, and we are proud of the work we've done, but what we've fundamentally done is someone's gifted us or Said fundamentally, here you go, Euge, you can have a corner of that car park, go put your charges in. And we've done our very best to ensure that we've got some past compliant bays going on and the right charges are kitted in and the look and feel is roughly right. But the reality is we're in the corner of that car park, not isolated the back, it's still well lit, there's no pools of water or puddles or whatever. When it rains, it's still a high-quality fit and finish. But we're over in the corner, and if you look at the totem pole, we might be on it, but we're down at the bottom. So I think first of all, there's already a mission there to say for us, right, what we want to be doing is no longer want to be taking the corner, we want to take the whole thing and we want to dictate where they go. They don't dictate it to us because actually what you've got at that point is then as the driver, the EV driver enters the site, you're already talking to them with signage, pricing information and say, this is where you need to go for this type of charging.

Dev Chana [01:00:01]:
This is where you need to go for that type of charging. So I think that's already on there. So for me, the end complete mission is where we've got E.ON at the top of the totem pole, not at the bottom, actually. And that is also dictating the type of retailers we've got at the site as well, because we are picking up so much information and data on, on, on our current sites right now, you mentioned it earlier, we've got some quality coffee establishments like Tim hortons, there's some McDonald's, there's a Marks and Spencer's Food hall, there's some supermarkets, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So also what we're learning is what people like, what people don't like, what's working for us and what isn't working for us. So on that site of the future, which really isn't too far away, is a case of, well, you're not the right retailer for us because that's not what our customer is asking for, this is what they're asking for. So that's you're welcome on our sites at the same time. And Liz, I'm not kidding, you know, there are some opportunities that are well progressed where we're going to take on larger pieces of land, where we're going to have eight truck bays in the corner, 30 passenger bays in one side as well, and then a couple of retailers.

Dev Chana [01:01:04]:
But we will dictate site design at the same time. And part of that is also a future kind of technical area where we might put some battery or solar or something like that. We are E.ON the capability exists here to be able to do that innovative stuff. Look, we look really excitedly at some of the stuff the other CPOs have done within this space. Genuinely, we love that work. And it's a bit of a saying copy with pride in the sense of they've done some good work, that's good for the customer experience. Well, we should do that. But what can we do as a layer over that? So, Liz, what does the charging site of the future look like? As I said, but I don't want the future to be decades from now.

Dev Chana [01:01:43]:
I promise you that's being worked on right now.

Liz Allan  [01:01:46]:
And that's. And that's what we need. That's what we want to kind of move forwards to anyway, don't we, you know, which is brilliant. Now I've got another question for you. I'm almost there, coming to the end now, but this question is: if EV drivers were to write reviews of their charging experiences with you, in the same way they do, you know, kind of. And people are doing this anyway, but in the same way that they would do as a restaurant or a hotel.

Dev Chana [01:02:14]:
Okay, yeah.

Liz Allan  [01:02:15]:
What would your, what would the, what would the line? What would you want yours to say? You know, your reviews. And I, I did. This popped into my head last night, which was the old Carlsberg advert we like, "probably the best lager in the world. You know, we're not condoning alcohol here, but if we think about this being the "probably best EV charging hubs in the world".

Dev Chana [01:02:39]:
Yeah, yeah.

Liz Allan  [01:02:40]:
What would you want your review to say? You know, like kind of. You get that one-liner, don't you, on Trustpilot, where it says give a description.

Dev Chana [01:02:49]:
So you're hunting for the one-liner.

Liz Allan  [01:02:51]:
Of course I am.

Dev Chana [01:02:51]:
Yeah, I'll give you that. But there's a bit of a preface to that. You know, first of all, as I said, 160 core bays in the ground will burn. We'll get through 2 well clearer 200 by the end of this year, which isn't too far away. There are some reviews already on these sites. If you go on ZapMap, if you go on Google generally. Four stars plus, actually. So there is some fantastic customer Commentary out there already.

Dev Chana [01:03:17]:
So, you know, implore anyone to go out there, check out our sites and go review us. I genuinely think you're going to enjoy that charge and experience. Experience already, you know, you know what I do say. I will get to the one liner, Liz. If we look back in many ways, I don't want anyone to say anything. The reason is, if you really think about it, this is supposed to be dull, and it really is. And bear with me for a second. Do you ever have, and I don't know, maybe your social circle is totally EV, but go with me for a second.

Liz Allan  [01:03:47]:
No.

Dev Chana [01:03:48]:
So then absolutely you will have people in your social circle, they will fill up their car with petrol and they will not come to you and say, that was a really good petrol fueling experience. You'd look at them and say, they're bonkers, they're nuts. But it's totally normal for us right now to say, I went to plug into that EV charge point. It was a really good customer experience because of X, Y, Z. So there's still a novelty factor around our space. It's really exciting, really exciting. I love that. But in 10 years' time, this has got to be normal; it's got to be dull.

Dev Chana [01:04:22]:
The fact that we're still talking about it suggests we're still in that novel period. But I want to look back and say it's just, it's not a conversation point. So your one-liner for me is "It just works". Yeah, that's it.

Liz Allan  [01:04:34]:
Yeah.

Dev Chana [01:04:35]:
It's nothing more glamorous than that. And I think sometimes we add more glamour than we need to. Reality is, drivers out there just want it to work, so it just works.

Liz Allan  [01:04:45]:
I like that. I like that because, yeah, that's as a driver, as an EV driver, I saw, I want.

Dev Chana [01:04:51]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan  [01:04:51]:
And I'm sure that's what everybody watching and listening all want as well. So, one final point here.

Dev Chana [01:04:59]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan  [01:05:01]:
What message? If there was one thing that you wanted to kind of share again, you know, whether it's repeating it or whether you want to come out with something amazingly profound.

Dev Chana [01:05:11]:
No. Good.

Liz Allan  [01:05:11]:
What message do you want to leave everybody with?

Dev Chana [01:05:14]:
With? Yeah. Look, you know what? For us, it's really simple. I think everyone looks at us and says E.ON. And I'm glad they do. Right. Because the way we're able to mobilise is hugely on the strength of the brand and a lot of the smart people, not just kicking around in Edri, but the wider E.ON ecosystem at the same time. But fundamentally, we are a new network 24 months at some level of strength, which is not a long time. And as I said, we're a really lean team.

Dev Chana [01:05:42]:
You are not dealing with a hundred plus people here. It's 10, 11 of us kicking around. So we soak up opinions, commentary, feedback really, really fast. So actually what I want evil people to leave with is come try out our charging sites and tell us what you think because I'm not far off the detail at all, at all. I want to know if it's not right, it's not working for you, I want to know about it. We want to know about it because we've got the ability right now to change that because we are nowhere near mach complete. I said it earlier on, we'll be clear, 200 this year. That's nothing compared to where we want to get to.

Dev Chana [01:06:17]:
So still loads and loads of time for us to get it right. So for me there's no major profound message to say, just come give us a go, give us that feedback because I promise you, we are listening.

Liz Allan  [01:06:27]:
And you're agile enough at the moment to, you know, not just at the moment, you're agile enough. And the way that you think is very forward. It's very forward thinking anyway, isn't it? To be able to, to manage that if there are critiques or positive and just integrate it into what you're doing.

Dev Chana [01:06:44]:
We the feedback. So we've got almost two types of customers, right? We've got our clients out there that are fundamentally the landlords or the developers, and then we've got the end consumers, right? Both are actually really important to us. But in the mode that we've been in, it's actually the engagement and the conversation we're having with our property partners and the developers. And that Agile comment is really relevant. Sometimes people will knock on our door and say, Oh gosh, big utility. This is going to be slow, painful and horrible. No, that's not the feedback we're getting.

Dev Chana [01:07:15]:
We're really easy to contract with. We can move really fast, and decision-making does not take weeks at all. Does not take weeks at all. You're getting to me really, really fast. So, for us, that agile comment is absolutely relevant, and we will absolutely always stay like that. There's no mission here from anyone in EDRI to build an empire of people. That's not what we're about. Totally focused on that customer experience, be it the client developer or the end consumer that's plugging in.

Dev Chana [01:07:42]:
At the same time, we should always look like this. And we plan on always looking like this. And the final comment I would say is not that I have any resentment to where your funding or private equity finance comes from. In our opinion, the charger should always read E.ON on it in some description or another. There's no issue around branding or private equity funding kicking in. I get it. It's helping support the electrification and the UK become a low-carbon economy. But with us, we're really proud of the brand, so it should always have E.ON on it.

Dev Chana [01:08:09]:
And because it's our money funding that, this is how much we believe in the mission. Everything we do is funded from E.ON Germany. From a central perspective, we absolutely believe in this journey. We're not shaking in on any further form, so we're really proud of the work we're doing.

Liz Allan  [01:08:22]:
And you're doing a good job so far, honestly.

Dev Chana [01:08:27]:
Thank you.

Liz Allan  [01:08:27]:
It's been amazing to talk to you like this in this wonderful building, with this wonderful backdrop, and actually being the first Face-to-Face podcast for the 150th episode. I don't know why I keep saying 150th.

Dev Chana [01:08:44]:
It's a big number.

Liz Allan  [01:08:45]:
This is just huge. Oh, my God. Thank you.

Dev Chana [01:08:50]:
Look, no, Liz, an absolute pleasure. And I think this, for us, is a bit of a moment because we're now. We're going to come out of the shadows a bit more, and this probably marks that a little bit more. We're now starting to get engaged with the consumer because we've got the bones of a network done great. So we want to be out there talking, and we want to be approachable. So, yeah, thanks.

Liz Allan  [01:09:14]:
And you are a really approachable person. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you. Actually, you know, for this, for doing this and for sponsoring the episode.

Dev Chana [01:09:27]:
There is no one within Edri UK that is not customer facing. Nobody. Everybody in our business is just the same. So I appreciate the feedback. I think it's duplicated right across the small team we've worked with.

Liz Allan  [01:09:39]:
So as a final, final wrap-up from me, just to say thank you to Dev and for sponsoring this episode, the 150th episode, just amazing. I want to say, if you've been watching and listening since episode one in December 2022, I want to say thank you. It's been so brilliant on this journey. If you've only just joined and started watching recently, then thank you too. And please check out the previous episodes, as there are a lot of nuggets to catch up on. And please don't forget to do all the wonderful things, such as subscribing, sharing, and checking out our podcast page on LinkedIn. But as a final point, again, thank you to Dev. I also want to say thank you to Sarah McArthur because if it wasn't for Sarah, I wouldn't have met this man.

Dev Chana [01:10:48]:
No big thanks to Sarah.

Liz Allan  [01:10:50]:
And I want to say thank you to the man behind the camera, Tom Stanhope, who's driven from Devon. Oh my God. And we hadn't seen each other for three years, which is mad because we've worked together for ages, but we hadn't seen each other. So thank you to Tom, to Michelle Liddle, who is my number two, and she's amazing. She does all our digital stuff. And also finally to my son James, who does a lot of our analytics and usually tells me about something. But look again, just thank you to everybody for watching and listening to our 150th episode.

Liz Allan  [01:11:28]:
And I shall say see you next time. Bye bye.

Dev Chana [01:11:35]:
See ya.

Liz Allan  [01:11:37]:
Thanks for listening to Electric Evolution with Liz Allan. This special 150th episode was proudly sponsored by E.ON Drive Infrastructure, championing sustainable partnerships and building the EV charging network of the future. If you enjoyed the episode, please follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you know someone who'd make a great guest or who would like to sponsor a future episode, just drop me a line at lizullcircleci.co.uk. Thanks again for tuning in, and here's to shaping a smarter, cleaner future together.