Episode 154: Liz Allan and Ben Nelmes - How EV Sales Are Surging and What It Means for the UK’s Net Zero Journey

Episode 154: Liz Allan and Ben Nelmes - How EV Sales Are Surging and What It Means for the UK’s Net Zero Journey.

Liz Allan speaks to Ben Nelmes, Executive Director and co-founder of New Automotive. They explore the rapid growth of electric vehicle adoption in the UK and what it means for our path to net zero.

Ben shares the journey that led him from shaping climate and energy policy in Parliament to establishing New Automotive in 2020, an independent think tank dedicated to accelerating the shift to zero-emission vehicles through data-driven insight. They discuss the numbers behind June’s landmark moment when one in four new cars sold in the UK was electric, highlighting the conditions that made it possible and the lessons it offers for other markets.

Liz and Ben also dive into the Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) mandate, consumer mindset shifts, the affordability debate, and the findings of the Cost of Driving Electric report. Ben explains how New Automotive uses data not just to track EV adoption, but to cut through misinformation, influence policy, and support a fair, inclusive transition.

Ben Nelmes Bio:
Ben Nelmes has spent his career at the intersection of climate policy and transport, helping shape how the UK responds to the challenge of decarbonisation. Before co-founding New Automotive in 2020, he advised the chair of the House of Commons Environment Committee and worked across a range of energy and environmental policy roles. Known for turning complex data into clear, actionable insights, Ben has become a respected voice in the EV sector, championing transparency, consumer awareness, and evidence-based policy to accelerate the shift to cleaner transport.

Quote of the Episode:
“The UK is emerging as a real case study of success; one in four new cars sold is now electric, and that should give us hope and confidence about what’s possible.” — Ben Nelmes, Executive Director, New Automotive 

Ben Nelmes Links:
Website:  https://newautomotive.org
New Automotive July BEV Sales Report: https://newautomotive.org/ecc
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bennelmes?

Transcript

Liz Allan  [00:00:02]:
Okay, so today I have with me Ben Nelms and he is the Executive Director of New Automotive. Thanks for joining me, Ben. It's absolutely. It's lovely to have you on here. We've been trying to do this for a little while, haven't we?

Ben Nelmes [00:00:14]:
We have, yes. Good to finally join you.

Liz Allan  [00:00:18]:
So, Executive Director of New Automotive, which you co-founded back in 2020, but before that, you worked in public policy, didn't you? In. I was, I was absolutely, really intrigued with your LinkedIn profile because I always, I always kind of do a little bit of a troll when I, when I'm talking to somebody. Do you want to just talk about what you did before starting New Automotive, and actually, what was it that gave you the impetus to start it.

Ben Nelmes [00:00:47]:
Yeah, sure, absolutely, I'm happy to. So, yeah, you're right. My background is in public policy.

Ben Nelmes [00:00:55]:
I guess specifically in working in climate and energy policy. So I did a variety of roles, but one of which was quite sort of crucial to forming New Automotive was I worked for the chair of the House of Commons Environment Committee and I helped her in her role steering through all of these different parliamentary inquiries into different environmental issues. And because of that job that she had, we would get lobbied all the time by environmental NGOs and by other groups to look at specific issues. And I was always struck by how little, how few organisations were urging us really to think about the UK's transition to electric vehicles, or indeed the transition overall, the impact for road users or for the automotive industry, and how indeed it was going to happen. And we would have these progress reports from the Committee on Climate Change that they produce every year and hand back to Parliament. And that's part of the UK's kind of climate change governance arrangements, is that the Parliament gets these annual reports and we would get them on our desk and I'd look at them and think, well, look, you know, another year of great progress in the, in the, in the electricity generating sector where you have emissions coming down very rapidly, but still oil demand and emissions from road transport, just another year of stagnation and flatlining and sitting at this huge level and not really anything starting to eat away at it. And when you compare that to the relatively fast timescales that sit behind the UK's climate change targets, it struck me that there was increasingly some need for government to do something about this and to have a bit more of a plan. But sometimes, in order for that to happen, I think it takes civil society and NGOs to be playing a really active role in highlighting that there are things that the government can do and that there is a need for the government to act.

Ben Nelmes [00:02:54]:
And that was really the impetus for me behind setting up New Automotive, along with my co-founders. And I was expressing these frustrations to somebody who worked in a philanthropic foundation once over lunch and they came back to me and said, well, look, if you're able to get something together, we might be interested in funding it, if you can get a proposal together. So really the rest kind of went from there, as they say. So, yeah, that was the genesis of New Automotive. And I think the other thing was really in terms of the work that we actually do, I was always very impressed with organisations that were able to use data to tell stories to back up their campaign. So it wasn't just that there's this particular issue or this thing is all really bad or this thing's not working. It was, you know, here's some actual insight and evidence to support some of the solutions that are being proposed or highlight the success that sometimes gets forgotten about. So data has always been a really crucial part of what we do at New Automotive.

Ben Nelmes [00:03:59]:
And really, you could sum up everything we do as telling stories with data.

Liz Allan  [00:04:05]:
And actually, you kind of provide a monthly recap of kind of information on EVs, don't you? And I was just going to say, from my point of view, my background is in business improvement, continuous improvement, and data is key to all of this because, actually, otherwise it's just gut feel, isn't it? And trying to get people to, to do something about it, when you've just got a gut feel, it doesn't work like that. So this is brilliant. But this month. Well, sorry, no, last month, now, because we're now in July. I've got confused about which month I'm in for June. Your latest publication, or your report, was talking about the fact that the sales were 1 in 4 EVs. That just blew my mind, to be honest.

Ben Nelmes [00:04:59]:
Yeah, it's crazy to think, isn't it? You know, I think back in the, back in the days of 2020, you know, we would look at the makeup of the new car market in the UK and it just seemed unimaginable that we'd ever get to a situation where one in four would be, would be fully electric in normal times as well, outside of the pandemic. So yeah, it's, it's amazing progress. And it shows as well what can be done and what can be achieved when the conditions are right. And I think it should give you, you know, it should, it should give ministers a great deal of heart to see that the UK is able to do this. And also I think there's a great lesson in this for other similar automotive markets, other similar countries out there that are looking at their progress towards electrification and perhaps looking for ways to speed it up. And actually, I think the UK is emerging as a real case study of success, which is fantastic.

Liz Allan  [00:06:03]:
So if we just go to the 1 in 4 point, then I want to go through all the other stuff that you do, but this just blew me away. Like I say, it blew me away. What made up the numbers of that, that one in four, what was, was there, were there any signs that it would, I mean, because it's not, is it? I don't know which, I don't know where an automotive is, whether it's kind of classified as half-year or whether the year, you know, year-end is kind of end of March. So I, I don't know that bit. But actually, what stats did you see running up to that, and what was this warning for?

Ben Nelmes [00:06:42]:
Yeah, exactly. I mean, look, it was really groundbreaking. It was significantly up on the, if you compare it to June 2024, where battery electric cars, I think, were around 19% of new sales, and now they're 25%. They're growing, you know, growing significantly. It's over a 40% growth rate. I mean, very little in the UK economy grows at a rate of 40% in a year. So it's really, really strong growth, and I think it's, you know, it's a really significant shift. It's one of the, certainly it's the strongest month for electric car sales in the year so far.

Ben Nelmes [00:07:28]:
There have been months where we've had higher EV sales, but it's not really fair to compare June with a December or you know, because the car market has a, has a great deal of seasonality I think is the term. Each month is quite unique because there are, there are targets that people are meeting at the end of each quarter, the end of each half. There are also the months where the number plate changes over, where we tend to see car sales going up, car registrations going significantly higher. So yeah, it was in terms of what was driving it. I mean, I think two things, broadly speaking, were responsible for the really impressive stat. One was the fact that Tesla, which has always been the UK's market-leading brand for electric cars, had quite a strong month and saw growth of over 10% in their sales in June last year after quite a difficult period for the company. And that was. I think there's a variety of reasons why we've seen their sales grow in June, but one of which is certainly part of it is that they released their updated Model Y, which has proven to be quite popular.

Ben Nelmes [00:08:43]:
So that's good. But I think the bigger thing driving the growth is also the fact that we're now seeing a bunch of brands that are not traditionally. Have not been traditionally leaders in electrification, but now they're getting very, very active in this space, and they're growing their sales. So one of the biggest. The biggest EV sales growth is, is being seen by Ford. So Ford has not been a leader in this area, but they are. Their sales in 2025 overall are up over 300% of what they were.

Liz Allan  [00:09:19]:
My gosh, 2024.

Ben Nelmes [00:09:20]:
So it's okay, huge growth. Yeah. By the end of June last year, they'd sold something like 2,000, a little over 2,000 electric cars. That's now over 10,000 this year. So it's. They're going gangbusters with their EV models.

Liz Allan  [00:09:41]:
They've added to their number of EVs that are going, you know, out there. Sorry, I interrupted you.

Ben Nelmes [00:09:46]:
Yeah, yeah, indeed, yeah. They've got a range of new models and they're selling really well. And that's successful, is fantastic. And then there are a bunch of other brands as well that are seeing significant growth. And of course, we've seen the entry into the UK of a few new brands like BYD, which is the second fastest growing in terms of their EV sales so far this year. And almost 1 in 20 new electric cars in 2025 was a B BYD. So they are a significant part of the market. But equally, you know, Peugeot, Skoda, these names have been with us for a very long time.

Ben Nelmes [00:10:28]:
They are all seeing very, very rapid growth. And I think that reflects the fact that all car manufacturers now understand that this is the future for this market, but also the fact that the UK they see as a particularly high, high priority for sending their electric vehicles. So, that's because we have an ambitious set of policies here in the UK.

Liz Allan  [00:10:52]:
So would you. Would you also say that there's a shift with regard to general mindset changes? Because I've talked about this a lot on the podcast about the levels of negativity that have been out there for a long time. There seems to be a bit of a shift in most media sources. There may be an odd one or two that is still Kind of back in the, back in the, the arcade, you know, in the, in the past. But do you feel that there's kind of more, more mindset changes?

Ben Nelmes [00:11:26]:
Yeah, definitely. I think, I think your minds are changing across the country, in various different corners where it's key as well. I mean, consumers ' attitudes towards EVs are definitely shifting. I mean, there's a lot of research out there to show that consumer demand is growing quite strongly in the UK at the moment. I think that's driven partly by the fact that we have something like 1.6 million electric cars on the roads of the UK now. It's. A lot of the cars are around, so people are getting exposed to them. You know, they're getting friends who have them, they might get a lift from a friend in their electric car, and they'll ask them about how it's going.

Ben Nelmes [00:12:11]:
So their experience of an EV is no longer what they read in the newspaper; it's more firsthand. And that is, that's really good. It means that people can have a much more realistic idea of what they are buying when they go and consider their next car. I think also in the in the media, things are changing. You know, we've seen a lot of, frankly, quite silly media coverage of EVs as we see silly media coverage of a lot of issues. You know, it's not a surprise at all. And that is now starting to change, I think, now as well. I think, as when you go back just a few years, EVs represented a real unknown quality to people.

Ben Nelmes [00:12:57]:
And so, therefore, media scare stories or media sort of hyperbole generated interest. People thought, Oh my goodness, are we actually going down the route of this technology when there are all these claimed problems about it? And now those stories are starting to meet with people's real experiences of the technology, and therefore they're having less traction, and I expect that trend only to continue. So the media is changing as well. And then I think, you know, government, government has various different attitudes towards this technology at any one time. You know, it's not, it doesn't think with one mind, but I think that there is also quite a strongly favourable view of this technology and government, on balance. So, yeah, I think we are, we are really seeing minds start to change.

Liz Allan  [00:13:45]:
Yeah, and I was going to say it feels like at some point soon, soon we're going to get to it. Like you just said, you know, you'll know somebody who's got an EV, etc. Etc. Feels like we're Going to get to a tipping point, you know, where, where kind of like there'll be a changing under change in understanding that you'll know more people who've got an EV and who've had good, you know, who have good experiences with it. So therefore those people can counter all that, you know, don't. Dave down the pub says this, you know that, that kind of comment.

Ben Nelmes [00:14:20]:
Yeah, indeed, yeah. I mean, you know, I think it's so powerful because it's. Now Dave in the pub says this, but Mark in the pub says actually it's not that bad and I'll get the next round in because I'm saving so much money on my, you know, obviously that, you know, might not be realistic because you might not might prefer to keep those savings. But, but yeah, I mean, people will learn that, that actually this technology has a huge number of benefits, and that's a really good thing. And it's the most powerful communications tool you can have is the power of somebody's genuine lived experience. So yeah, it's really good.

Liz Allan  [00:15:01]:
So you've also got, on your website, you've got a ZEV mandate tracker, and I taught you before we kind of got talking around the time that I had Colin Walker on the podcast talking specifically about ZEV. And I suppose because there are a number of data tools that you've got on your website, we could talk about some of this anyway. But the ZEV mandate tracker seems, it's really interesting but it would be good to kind of understand your thoughts on ZEV now that it's been embedded for a few months and just your, your kind of. I suppose from a.. And I talked to Colin about this before, from a lobbying point of view. There were lots of OEMs, lots of money vehicle manufacturers that were lobbying for some kind of leniency or flexibility in, you know, kind of the zero emission vehicle mandate, you know, weren't there, and the flexibilities have been put in there. What are your thoughts on what those are doing? Are they doing anything or is everybody just going ahead and kind of going well, we knew what we were doing anyhow, so, you know, well.

Ben Nelmes [00:16:19]:
Look, I mean, I suppose one thing is that we might not. One thing to get clear on, to begin with, is that we might not see the impact of the changes that have been announced right away. The car market can react quite quickly to things, but most of the time decisions about the supply of vehicles are taken months ahead of time and then take, you know, it's not an industry that can really turn on a sixpence like that. And then the other thing to remember is that in April, we had this announcement of some changes to the zero-emission vehicle mandate. But we have not seen the legislation because this is a policy that exists in law and is set out in law. That law has to change. And we haven't seen how those changes are exactly going to be introduced. And I know that different companies will take different approaches.

Ben Nelmes [00:17:14]:
Some will start to change their plans when the government announce some changes. Others will want to see legislation actually passed and approved and the letter of that and to take a view before they take a view before they start to act. So we might not see the changes right away. But then, I suppose, if we go on to what my reflections are on what the changes themselves actually mean? Well, the UK the, before the announced changes, the UK had one of the most ambitious set of targets for EV uptake in the world. They were more ambitious than our European peers, they were more ambitious than North America, and I believe that they were more ambitious, actually, than China's targets for EV uptake as well. So we had a really ambitious set of targets. The changes I think will mean that we will keep most of that ambition. So that's good.

Ben Nelmes [00:18:15]:
But we will lose some of the clarity about how the market will change between now and the end point, which is 2020, sorry, 2035, when we'll have a car market that comprises only zero-emission vehicles. So we had targets that were set out that were very hard. They were very, you know, there weren't other ways to meet them. You had to meet them through selling zero-emission cars and zero-emission vans for most of the years between now and 2035. Those targets are now a little bit fuzzier, you might say, in that there are other ways to meet them that mean that the zero emission vehicle sales can be below the target headline target and yet the company is still complying. So it's harder to see the precise nature of that car market and how it's going to evolve over the coming few years. And I think it's in that period, you know, for the remainder of this decade, where we are most likely to see the impacts of the changes that were announced. But there is significant uncertainty, and that has been introduced by the changes that the government announced.

Liz Allan  [00:19:20]:
I was going to say because that, that sort of, that 2029 date with regards to the sort of like some flexibilities being kind of integrated into what Zev looks like now and like you say, it's not physically written just yet, but that, that kind Of I. Because it's. Can you just explain that. Colin talked about this before, but can you just explain a little bit about, about the run up to 2029 and what, and what that difference is, is in those flexibilities?

Ben Nelmes [00:19:55]:
Yes, certainly. So the targets as they stand. So, for those who aren't familiar with the details of the policy, who are listening, the way the targets work is that each year has a target. So for this year, the target is 28%, and that target goes up each year until 2035. And the target for 2030 is 80%. So in 2030, a carmaker has to make sure that 80% of its new car sales are zero-emission. Now, there's no real other way to meet that target in 2030. I mean, a carmaker can, if they beat some targets in previous years, then they can sell slightly short of that 80% and use some of that to help.

Ben Nelmes [00:20:44]:
But for that 80% target is pretty hard. The target in the previous year, from memory. So I'm actually just going to double-check what that target is, but from memory, I think it's 66%.

Liz Allan  [00:21:05]:
Because it's quite a big jump now, isn't it?

Ben Nelmes [00:21:08]:
So 66%, this is the target in 2029. So it's already, already a substantial jump from 66% to 80%. But actually, there are flexibilities in 2029 that won't exist in 2030, which means a car maker could sell significantly less than 66%. In fact, it might be something in the region of 55% of their car sales. So to go from 55% to 80%, that's a very big jump. And a jump like that carries a cost for a car maker. You know, that will require quite a lot of investment. It's achievable, you know, it's doable.

Ben Nelmes [00:21:53]:
So we shouldn't think we've set ourselves an impossible target here. But it's achievable only under certain conditions. And one of those conditions is that the car makers know for certain that that target will never change, because that way they will build plans and invest capital around that target. You know what we're doing, what we're talking about here, we talk about car sales changing, but there's a huge industry that sits behind all of these different, all of these different car sales. It's battery manufacturing and vehicle assembly, or its internal combustion engine manufacturing, and all of the connected parts of that supply chain. And actuall,y what we need is for the car companies to start investing much more in battery manufacturing. And to start making plans for what they're going to do with their internal combustion engine manufacturing production lines. And that is a big, big change, and it affects a lot of people's lives.

Ben Nelmes [00:22:45]:
You know, this is a really serious transition that we're talking about here. And so, therefore, you need absolute certainty that that policy is not going to change. But by introducing a change back in April, nobody is ever going to be quite as certain as they were that that target won't move. So there has been some harm done there. So the government really needs to start creating a lot of assurance that those future targets aren't going to change anymore. And that way we'll be able to do that, we'll be able to make that jump. But I think the government really needs to acknowledge that's a big task that they need to take on.

Liz Allan  [00:23:27]:
It's put a bit of a wobble in it, hasn't it, really? You know, to me, if, like you've kind of said, the car manufacturers that are already doing well, and I said this to Colin, I asked this question of Colin earlier on in the year, you know, the ones that are doing well, are they really going to stop, you know, and look and kind of go, oh, well, we're just going to adjust it, you know, because a lot of them have, they've had. Because they take such a long time for this kind of manufacturing, you know, too. And like you said, the supply chain all has to go in it, put in place. Really. Is there any point? Can they, you know, in some ways it just feels like they just carry on as if it was how it was previously, then the ones that are doing well are going to keep doing well because why would you take your foot off the accelerator, as it were? Because this, this has been put in place. Because if you still sell, you know, if you still keep on the old targets, then actually, if your aim. Aim is to actually to meet those targets, then surely that's, that's the best thing, isn't it?

Ben Nelmes [00:24:33]:
Yes. So I think, I think, I agree that car makers who have already invested and who are producing a lot of electric cars, they will continue to do so. I don't think there's a situation in which we'll see established battery car production closing down. What, however, is likely, which is a risk for the UK, is that those cars will go elsewhere. There are lots of countries in the world that have electricity. For whom increased electric car sales are just a benefit. Countries that have no vehicle manufacturing presence in any real, you know, in any Significant degree. But also companies that don't have any oil production.

Ben Nelmes [00:25:21]:
These, these net importers of oil are going to see only the upside of this draw transition because they'll have no jobs transition to deal with themselves. They'll have a balance of payments deficit where their energy imports are concerned. And so electric vehicles will help solve that problem, and they will quite happily take those vehicles. The UK I think, has to remember that the economic benefit of getting the transition to electric vehicles right is not in whether or not we have 2, 3, 4 gigafactories here employing so many thousands of people. It's not in whether or not we have car plants here. It's whether or not we have electric vehicles in the hands of households and businesses who currently use and spend money on fuel, who are going to start benefiting from the running cost savings. That's where we'll get the productivity benefits, and that's where we'll get the balance of payments benefits. And that is a huge boost to any country that is a major economy in Europe, which can move faster than its peers in this transition, will see a big boost as a result of that to the performance of its economy.

Ben Nelmes [00:26:38]:
So it's a real chance to get ahead. So, yeah, there are huge upsides here.

Liz Allan  [00:26:45]:
Yeah, let's, let's just, like I say, let's just hope that kind of everybody keeps pushing forward. There still needs to be in my mind, mindset changes with certain, because I've had experience of this myself, dealerships actually wanting to push electric vehicles and having champions in there to kind of, to manage and, and, and be enthusiastic about this, you know, and I know that that's part of the scenario, isn't it, really? But we need to, we've got to be pushing, they've got to be, there's got to be that mindset change there as well as everywhere else.

Ben Nelmes [00:27:27]:
Yeah, indeed, indeed. And I think, you know, I think there are a few more minds to change, I'm sure. But, you know, my hope is that parts of the automotive retail sector will start to realise that if they don't get ahead of this, this trend is inevitable, and these trends can come faster than you think. And if they don't get ahead of it, then they'll find themselves falling behind and missing out on a slice of the future car market. So it's really imperative that dealerships that anybody who's in the business of selling a car is, you know, on the lookout for how they're, and they're thinking through how they're going to adapt to the car market of the future and getting ahead of that trend.

Liz Allan  [00:28:18]:
I mean, people, you know, in general, there's kind of a known fact that people don't like change. And I remember listening to. I can't remember. I think it was radio or talk. I can't remember one of the talk radios or something like that, just over a year ago now. And the people, you know, going back to the, the what people thought about evs, and I know that there's still people thinking about this in some ways, but there was a, there was a chap on this radio show and he, he was, it was somebody who, who phoned in and said, we're being forced to do this. We've not, you know, had any kind of referendum or anything like that. But actually, you know, yes, it probably does feel like that to some people, especially if they're petrol heads and they've, you know, been driving a.

Liz Allan  [00:29:07]:
Driving a petrol or diesel car for a long time. But actually, I just say get them in a car, get them in a car, and, you know, and, and see what they think. Just see, see the change, you know, and, and yes, it's evolving technology, but it's blooming good. You know, you've just got to give it a chance, really.

Ben Nelmes [00:29:29]:
Yeah, yeah, indeed, indeed. And I think the people will be surprised. You know, most people who haven't experienced this technology, when you give it a go, people are generally surprised. On the upside, as it were, you know, they have a positive surprise rather than a negative surprise. So, yeah, I do encourage everybody to take whatever opportunity you can to drive one. I mean, I, you know, one of the things you can do these days, there are a lot of car rental options where you can get an electric car. So if you're going on a road trip, why not, you know, give it a go that way?

Liz Allan  [00:30:05]:
I've got, actually, I've got a friend this week who's actually, who's never test driven an EV before, and she's always driven petrol, and she's literally taking a few out for a test drive. And I, you know, and I said, look, do you want me to give you some steer in the right direction of what maybe you could try? So I've given her a number of different cars just to try them out, just, you know, different brands, different levels, and just to give her that understanding. But I've also, I've also, and this is what doesn't always happen, I've also given her some background on Regen and batteries and charging and things like that. Because I think that, that, that bit is really important as well, isn't it?

Ben Nelmes [00:30:48]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there are so many ways to buy any kind of car. There are so many ways to get caught out as a consumer on that. And if you don't, you know, if you don't know what to look for, if you don't know, you know, if you, if you're, you know, if you're unfamiliar to this. And so everybody is now with an electric car, everybody is to some extent going back to what it was like when they bought their first car, you know, and you don't know what's practical or what's going to work. And so the need for clear consumer information is really, you know, it's really, really important. So, yeah, it's those sorts of tips that you're, you're dispensing are probably, you know, it's probably a bigger market for them.

Ben Nelmes [00:31:32]:
So.

Liz Allan  [00:31:33]:
But actually, I'm going to move now on to your 2025 cost of driving electric report, because. Because that segues perfectly into it, doesn't it, Ben? And, actually, you know, the information that you've got in there, you are countering the, you know, kind of misinformation about EVs not being affordable. Can you just give me a little bit of background about the actual report? I know it was with Electric Vehicles UK and Jolt, wasn't it, but just give us some context for what that report actually entails.

Ben Nelmes [00:32:12]:
Yeah, sure, absolutely. So, yeah, as you say, we should say, this was a report we wrote for Electric Vehicles UK, and we produced it with them, and if you want to find it, it's on their website. And we aim to really produce as comprehensive an analysis as possible of the cost of owning and running an electric car versus a petrol equivalent. And so the key thing there is the equivalent. So there are lots of attempts to do this kind of analysis where people look at cars that are not really comparable. We thought, you know, when you're a consumer and you're going to buy a car, you're thinking about, do I need to fit my dog in the back? Have I got kids that I'm doing the school run, am I doing a weekly shop? You know, all of these things, these practical considerations. And so we built a set of comparisons. We found models of cars that people might realistically choose between, given different consumer profiles.

Ben Nelmes [00:33:18]:
And I think we, we looked at 4 to 500 different sets of comparisons in the New and used market and being purchased through salary sacrifice arrangements as well in the new market or being bought on finance in the used market. And the findings were really positive. We actually found that when you're looking at these sorts of comparisons, by and large, price parity has either been reached or is much, much closer than you might think. The only part of the market where price parity has yet to be reached is in the new market, when not getting a car on a salary sacrifice arrangement. Therefore, we don't get the tax benefit. But in the used market, price parity has been comfortably reached. The only real area where you're going to face a cost that you wouldn't otherwise have with a petrol car is when you're buying a home charger to put on your house. Yeah, but in almost every other area, they are cheaper; they're cheaper to buy, cheaper to run.

Ben Nelmes [00:34:27]:
And that's really good news, you know, and, and actually, I think I was really pleased with the result in the used market because to my mind one of the big benefits that this transition will bring is that it will really help people with their fuel costs. We talk about fuel bills and fuel poverty in the UK, but we never consider one of the biggest expenses on fuel that people have, which is transport fuel, such as petrol. So the fact that this technology is going to become more widely available in the used market, where most people buy their cars, I think, is really positive news. And to anybody who's looking at selling more EVs in the UK market, you know, it's a good, the costs are now looking really good for the technology and that's why we're seeing such strong uptake.

Liz Allan  [00:35:17]:
And it's funny, I was talking to a chap last Friday, I went to an event in Reading, just a little event, and he was looking at buying a used Polestar 2. And, actually, he was, he was gobsmacked. And you know, like I say, nobody, nobody's not everybody's got a drive, I get that. But he, you know, but he did, and he was gobsmacked when I told him how much it costs us to charge our car. We've got a smaller battery than a Polter Polestar 2. But because I've, I've had a Polestar chip 2 for a few weeks last year, I knew that it would be, you know, just a few pounds to, to kind of do that. And it does make a difference, like you say, it does make a difference to actually recognise, you know, that like when I was driving my VW Golf. We were spending like 75 pounds on petrol, you know, kind of change, changing it to an EV.

Liz Allan  [00:36:10]:
And yes, we've got less miles, but actually, you know, charging from home is. It is just. It's so the costs are just so much cheaper, aren't they?

Ben Nelmes [00:36:21]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. I mean, and convenient as well. I think people often wonder, think that charging is going to be this massive inconvenience, but actually, if you're able to charge at home, it's quite easy. And that is a benefit that you see reported back from EV owners, that they like the fact they can just plug in and leave it, rather than having to go to the petrol station. Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:36:47]:
And even when you're public charging. Yes. It's still, you know, kind of bedding in. And we need to make sure the experience, customer experience improves in certain situations. But actually, you know, when you're charging an EV, you can build it into your travel time, you know, and actually, you know, we've. Our son goes. I've talked about this before. Our son goes to Exeter University, and that's 145 miles for us.

Liz Allan  [00:37:16]:
And, you know, we build our charging into that because it's three hours in the car if we're going down the A303 from Reading, that is. But, you know, it's. It's things like that. You can, you can build it in because you want to have a little bit of a break. And actually, and the. And I've talked about this on social media as well. We need to, you know, we need to kind of fill these. We're all running so fast, aren't we, to do everything.

Liz Allan  [00:37:41]:
We just. We're all going at 100 miles an hour all the time. It's kind of forcing us to do it in some ways, but it doesn't take a lot of time. You know, you can go and use the com, you know, have a comfort break, pick up a cup of tea and come back, and it's charged. That's it, isn't it?

Ben Nelmes [00:37:57]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right, yeah. I mean, there are many aspects of this that are much more convenient and much more pleasant, which I think people are increasingly finding. Come to, coming to appreciate. So, yeah, it's really positive.

Liz Allan  [00:38:13]:
So, can we now talk a little bit about? There is a bit of an elephant in the room, and we were talking about this before we started recording. I know that this change probably happened after the report came out, and it's about the car tax Increase? Yes, because, because that, that's like I say, sorry, I just think it feels a bit like a bag of spanners to me because it's not really. It. I don't know what we were talking about, you know, whether the government is moving in the right direction. And to me, that is just a bit, it's not, it's a bit of an anomaly. What, what do you reckon?

Ben Nelmes [00:38:57]:
Well, so the changes to road tax, I mean, look at it, it's. There were some quite hefty increases to road tax that came into effect in April. I think partly this just reflects the fact that we live in straitened times. You know, the government is keen to raise tax revenue where it can, and taxes like road tax are the kind of places that a Chancellor might look, which is, you know, painful and difficult. But equally, that's the, that's kind of the situation we're in. I suppose that's the context for it. One of my takes on what changed in April was that the taxes on more polluting cars went up really significantly. So there was quite a, there's an, quite a big difference, you know, much bigger difference than they used to be.

Ben Nelmes [00:39:55]:
If you're, if you're looking at cars, if you're looking at, you know, say petrol cars that pollute much more versus petrol cars that are a bit cleaner and a bit more efficient, there's a bigger difference there, there's an even bigger difference between petrol cars that pollute a bit less and zero emissions cars, battery electric cars. The thing that I think is a little bit of a shame was the change that put up road tax on people who already own an electric car, that they're now paying the standard rate, which is the same as owners of a petrol or diesel or hybrid car. And you know, I totally understand that electric cars ought to pay for using the roads. And it is right that in the long term, electric car owners do pay. What makes it a bit of a shame is the fact that we have this system of road tax that changed back in the 2010s, and there was a change that was introduced around 2017, which was handled quite poorly and has created an anomaly. So if you have a car that dates to before 2017, it sits on a totally different tax regime to one that was registered after 2017.

Liz Allan  [00:41:16]:
Okay.

Ben Nelmes [00:41:17]:
And so if you're looking in the used market and say you're considering buying a 2016 VW Polo diesel car, or you're considering buying a 2017 Renault Zoe electric, you know, two quite similar three door hatchbacks then you're going to pay very, very different rates of tax and the electricity car will pay the standard rate of road tax, which I think is, what, £190, £195, something like that. That VW Polo diesel is going to pay £20 a year in road tax. And the reason is that there was a change that was due, which was introduced back then, and they decided not to adjust the old. The rates of tax paid by the old cars. This makes no sense to me, and I think it's not a sensible way to structure a tax system. I think there are many more sensible ways to structure road tax, where you could actually have a tax rate that depends on the overall energy efficiency of the vehicle, regardless of whether it's petrol, diesel or electric, so that the most efficient electric cars would pay less than the least efficient electric car. And that's a really desirable outcome for us to have as a country, actually. And we don't have any way of discriminating between the efficiencies of electric cars in the tax system at the moment.

Ben Nelmes [00:42:39]:
And it's important because the least efficient electric cars consume twice as much energy per mile as the most efficient. And when you're thinking about the need for charging infrastructure, for new electricity generation capacity, new grid upgrades, all of these things can be minimised. These are all costs. They can all be minimised by having the most efficient electric cars on the road as possible. So there's a bit of a missed opportunity there, I think, a few years ago, to reform that tax system, to make it work in a way that's more sensible. And actually, we have a report that's on our website that looked at this, I think we published it last year, which suggested a way of reforming that system that would have been cost neutral for the Treasury. They could have increased revenue as much as it would have cost to offset the reductions elsewhere. So, yeah, I think it's a system that sadly hasn't been thought through quite as well as it could have done.

Ben Nelmes [00:43:30]:
But ultimately, I think the changes that came into effect in April they're not going to derail this transition; they're just going to create a few frictions here and there.

Liz Allan  [00:43:43]:
It does feel like that, what you've just said, and I didn't even. Somebody was talking about this the other day, and I was thinking, Oh, I need to look into that. But you've just clarified it about the payment for tax before, say, 2017. To me, that is just not encouraging. People with older vehicles that are more polluting to to kind of to move over to. To electric, but then on the other side, there's no incentive. There's no, there's no incentive either place is that there's no incentive for them to move, but there's no incentive payment to actually help them with that. Because usually, I'm saying usually, and I don't mean that to be a general, general statement, but a lot of the time, people who go for cars before that age, probably, I've had it second, third, fourth hand down, haven't they? They bought it used because that's what they can afford.

Liz Allan  [00:44:39]:
So really, we need to include people in this. Needs to. This transition has got to be inclusive, hasn't it?

Ben Nelmes [00:44:46]:
Indeed, yeah. And I mean, it's worth remembering that you will still, you know, even if you went for that Renault Zoe, you'd still benefit financially, you'd still actually see a saving. The problem is that it requires you, requires the consumer to have really good knowledge about what the costs are going to be. And if it's your first electric car, you're not going to have that knowledge, and you're going to see the higher road tax. And that's, that's easy to understand, you know, one 95 pounds a year versus whatever it is the on the 2016 diesel, you know, that's easy to understand, it's written on paper. Whereas the running cost savings of the. Zoe, you know, you're not going to see that so easily, so. But as I say, it creates a little friction, and it's not helpful.

Ben Nelmes [00:45:31]:
But ultimatel,y I still, you know, it's not going to derail this either, so. So it would be helpful if the treasury did something about it, certainly, and it would make the car makers lives easier as well if they did. But we need to, we need to always keep these problems in perspective as well, I think.

Liz Allan  [00:45:50]:
I agree, I agree. And do you know what? This. There's so much, so much I could talk to you about that you've got on your website. So to everybody watching and listening, please look at the new automotive website, because you have done so much, Ben, and I've kind of said to you before we started, you know, we started talking. You're so well respected across the sector, and it's absolutely brilliant. I want to finish with one, one final, one final question. So. So recently you've mentioned celebrating the winds, and I want to ask you what one positive shift you've seen recently that gives you hope that we're going in, that we are all moving in the right direction.

Ben Nelmes [00:46:34]:
Yeah. Okay. Well, I think, I think really the thing that has given me hope recently that we are moving in the right direction is just how quickly we're seeing electric car sales growing. Amongst those car makers who have been around a long time, those well-established brands just signal to me that they can see which way the wind is blowing and that they are now trying to get ahead of this. You know, when I look back over the times, the last five years, I think in 2020, there was something of a hype around electric vehicles and, and everybody got very excited and then that sort of faded away and it, you know, it took companies, took car companies longer than they had planned to bring their models to market to develop them. But now we are seeing the kind of fruit of all of that hard work coming through now, and I think that is really positive. And the fact that the UK is a leading market for this, and we really are. You know, I mean, if you look at the top 10 car markets by size, the UK is second only to China in the rate of uptake of electric cars.

Ben Nelmes [00:47:44]:
So we are a world leader on this and we should remember that. And that's going to benefit us and it's going to give us a huge advantage over our international competitors and that's to be celebrated. So I do feel very hopeful about this transition. I think there are lots of. I've said, sorry, you asked me for one thing that gives me hope and I've got three. That's because there are lots of, of reasons to be hopeful.

Liz Allan  [00:48:06]:
It's fine. It's fine. Absolutely. If you want to add another one, you can add another one. You know, I'm, I'm open to eight additionals, but like I say, that was my, that's my last question to you. So, yeah, if there's anything else that's popped into your head, let me know.

Ben Nelmes [00:48:20]:
I think we're all good. Liz?

Liz Allan  [00:48:22]:
No, thank you. But listen, it's just been, it's been really, really interesting to talk to you, and you're doing some fantastic work, you know, delving into all the layers. You are like an onion, except you didn't make me cry. You know, but in fact that there are so many layers to what you do as an organisation, and it's just. So we need to keep an eye on this. So, you know, like I say to everybody watching and listening, you can sign up for the updates from New Automotive. Anyway, I will share all of your details in the show notes and just make sure that people know how to find you. But on that point, I just want to say thank you, Ben.

Liz Allan  [00:49:07]:
It's been really, really interesting. Yeah, so much to talk about.

Ben Nelmes [00:49:14]:
Yeah, so much to talk about. I feel like we could have gone on much longer, but it's probably for everybody's benefit that we don't. So yeah. Thank you, Liz. It's been, it's been a real pleasure.

Liz Allan  [00:49:23]:
So, to everybody watching and listening, if you found this episode interesting, which I really hope you have, please share it. We'll be posting on LinkedIn and across all the socials, and you know, sign up, log in, do all the bits and pieces, subscribe and just yeah get the word out there about what new automotive is doing, and on that point, I will say thank you for watching and listening. Thanks to Ben, and I'll see you next time. Bye.