Episode 155: Liz Allan and Euan Macleod - The Future of Destination Charging: Simplicity, Trust and Growth

Episode 155: Liz Allan and Euan Macleod - The Future of Destination Charging: Simplicity, Trust and Growth.

Liz Allan speaks to Euan Macleod, Head of Commercial at VOQA, about how effortless EV charging can reshape the driver experience. 

Euan explains why simplicity in payment and usability is key to building trust with drivers and businesses alike, and why VOQA is focusing on destination charging as a critical part of the EV transition. They explore his mystery shopper experiences testing public chargers, the importance of contactless payments, and how businesses like hotels and workplaces can use charging as a value-added service.

Quote of the episode:
"If I can walk into a coffee shop and buy a cup of coffee with a credit card, why can’t I simply turn up at an EV charging station, tap my card, plug in, and get on with my day?" — Euan Macleod.

Euan Macleod Bio
Euan Macleod is a commercial leader with a track record of building customer-focused solutions in high-growth industries. Now Head of Commercial at VOQA, he is helping to develop a new generation of destination EV chargers designed with simplicity and reliability at their core. With decades of experience in telecoms and several years in EV charging, Euan brings a unique blend of technical knowledge, business acumen, and passion for sustainability. Outside of his role, he is a strong advocate for inclusive, user-friendly charging that supports the shift to net zero.

Euan Macleod Links:
Website: https://www.voqa.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/euanmacleod?

Transcript

Liz Allan  [00:00:01]:

So, on today's episode, I have with me Euan McLeod and he's the head of commercial at a company called Vodka. So, Euan, thank you ever so much for talking to me and we've tried to have this session for a little while and I wasn't very well last time, was I? So thank you ever so much, Liz.

Euan Macleod [00:00:18]:

Better late than ever and delighted to be with you today.

Liz Allan  [00:00:22]:

So let's, let's start off a little bit about your journey and what led you into the EV space and working in a company like Voca.

Euan Macleod [00:00:36]:

Anyone who looks at my LinkedIn profile doesn't see sustainability or EV charging. In fact, what you see is 25, if not broadly, 30 years of telecommunications expertise. I guess, like most people who came out the back university, it was a fairly well worn path. Find a graduate scheme to get into and join a big corporate and then, you know, have 20 different jobs over 20 different years, which I did and, you know, had a great time doing it. Telecoms is a great industry to be in. I've worked for some very large companies and exposure to all sorts of different things. But I guess I got to a point, two things happened really. You know, about five years ago, I kind of got a bit fed up with the corporate culture.

Euan Macleod [00:01:19]:

Nothing wrong with it, but I'd just been through, you know, the washing machine too many times and I felt that I needed to think about doing something different. I've also got two boys, both teenagers. In fact, they were just becoming teenagers five years ago, and they would ask me what I did and it became very difficult to explain what I did. It was a bit esoterical. You know, I did some marketing work, I did some sales work, I did some engineering work. But telecoms as a concept, you know, beyond the fact that, you know, what a mobile phone is, was a bit difficult for them. So I decided to look for a smaller business to work for and I definitely wanted to do something that was a bit more purpose driven. So, you know, the buzzwords at the time, in fact it still is, is sustainability.

Euan Macleod [00:02:02]:

So, you know, partly by planning and then partly by a big dose of luck. And my network of people that I've met over the years, I find myself looking at EV charging and joined ChargePoint four years ago now there, thereabouts and, you know, you know, wasn't quite sure what I was joining, you know, an EV charger. I mean, surely that's just a bit of electrical technology you stick in a wall. But actually, very quickly you understand how pivotal EV charging is in the transition that we're going to make to EVs. And it's a high growth market, you know, broadly EV, every EV needs to have be charged somewhere, be it at home or be it on route or be it at a destination. And so the growth rates in this industry are remarkable. But it was also quite a new industry. I know ChargePoint's been around since, you know, probably the best part of 20 years now, but actually it's kind of a must or a market was just getting going, it was relatively new.

Euan Macleod [00:03:02]:

And then nine months ago I had the opportunity to join a startup in the same industry, VOCA. I think ChargePoint wasn't big, but maybe bigger than I wanted it to be. So I joined a team of what was probably about 20 in total who are working on building a destination AC charger that will launch, you know, shortly is the plan. So I'm very happy, kind of, I guess towards the tail end of my career. But you know, I caught myself saying the other day, I wish I'd found Startup World 10 years ago because actually it's a huge amount of fun. You work with people with a huge amount of passion. Yes, you've introduced me as head of commercial, but frankly I also look at going to market. I also do all the customer facing activities.

Euan Macleod [00:03:43]:

You know, I'm also deeply involved in the service proposition. You know, small groups of people have just got to do lots of different things and actually with 30 odd years of work experience, you know, I've got a lot of things I hope I can bring to the table. So yeah, having a great time.

Liz Allan  [00:03:57]:

So VOCA though, the background to VOCA is yes, it's a startup. Yeah, but it's not quite, it's not a startup in the way that I would. I, you know that my business was a startup. Do you want to just explain a little bit about the players who are kind of behind?

Euan Macleod [00:04:16]:

Yeah, we run it with a startup mentality I think is the thing to say. But VOCA is actually part of a stable of investments that are focused on payment transactions in the public sector or public transportation environment. So CubaPay and Vix are probably the two largest in the stable. There's also LittlePay, which is a payment service provider and they've got a depth of expertise in managing payments. We've moved a huge distance from the days where you'd put your 50 pence in the machine and you'd get a paper ticket to do a journey and then to do the next leg of a journey, you'd have to do the same and the same and the same. I guess a lot of people will be familiar with Oyster. I mean, that's not associated with Kuberviks. But for example, in Manchester, the B network, all the kind of tap on, tap off the buses is all done and the trams are all done by Vixen Kuber.

Euan Macleod [00:05:14]:

So we come from a world where complex open payment systems is a thing that they're expert in. And I know you can ask me the question, but how do you get from managing payments into building an EV charger? If you're an EV driver, you probably care about three things. Once you've got the car, can I find a charger, can I start a charger and then can I pay for it when it's done? And Aaron Ross, who's the CEO of all the business groups, is a long term EV driver and his view is that EV charging just needs to be simpler. So it was born of frustration, really. And so on the basis that managing payments is a critical component of a driver experience, let's build an EV charger around what we're really good at. So our intellectual property is the payment and then we've built on that. You know, we've picked our segment of the EV charging market, destination charging, and that's what we're building. So yes, we have a startup mentality, but we have some parents who are helping us with intellectual property.

Euan Macleod [00:06:21]:

And so we work quite cross functionally across Voca, which is an even smaller team than 20. It's just four of us into the wider organization where or designing and building our building the charger.

Liz Allan  [00:06:35]:

So, so you talk about, so it's destination, destination charging. What speeds specifically are you keeping to 7 kilowatts or 7 and 22 or what's kind of, what are you looking at?

Euan Macleod [00:06:48]:

We're going to build a dual charger that can deliver up to 22 kilowatts. You know, clearly, and you'll know this and others listening to this podcast will know, you know, the amount of capacity, the amount of charge you can deliver at a charger is very dependent on the available electrical supply, which is, you know, was never given in any project, but you know, and what you would choose is very dependent on the use case. I mean, we're focused on destinations, so places people want to be rather than places they have to go to to get a charge. So be it a hotel, be it a leisure facility, be it a long stay car park, be it workplaces, which I think is a good, really critical component of the transition to E.V. you know, you pick your speed based on, you know what the use case looks like. So if you're a hotel, frankly you just need low speed charging. The car's going to park typically for 8 to 10, if not 12 hours overnight and actually probably doesn't need a full recharge, just needs to top up. But if you're, if it's a shorter dwell time location, maybe a leisure facility where you're just going to spend a couple hours then, you know, 22 or 11 kilowatts because most cars on AC charge at 11.

Euan Macleod [00:07:54]:

I know Renault have made some statements about moving to 22 across our platform but you know, that's more. And I think we need to change our mindset. You know, I've driven a diesel and petrol vehicle for my entire life until actually quite recently and you do just get to the point where you let it drip to zero and then you go and have a one off visit to a petrol station, you fill it up and you go off on your day's journey. That's kind of the reality when you. Most of us are used to it. And we are asking. People will have to change their understanding of how to fuel a vehicle. Yes, you could go to, you know, run your battery down and then go to a big charging hub and wait to get it refueled.

Euan Macleod [00:08:35]:

It will probably, I know speeds are getting faster, battery technology is improving or you could just top it up as you go. You know, my mobile phone's sitting here, in fact there is a charging cable and I'll plug it in. It doesn't need a charge, I'll just plug it in. And that's the same kind of philosophy for destination charging. You'll drive somewhere, you plug it in, you'll get some range added to your battery, you'll go off. So you're kind of perpetually just topping up your battery. So that top up mentality is a thing that will become prevalent. But that's the change essentially people are going to have to make and how they think about how they fuel a vehicle.

Liz Allan  [00:09:11]:

So you, like you just said you kind of moved to electric fairly recently, didn't you? Do you want to just? And we'll come back to the product in a little while. But do you want to just give a bit of an ex. A kind of a brain dump of. Of what your experience has been. You know, kind of. Why did you? I know which car you've got.

Euan Macleod [00:09:32]:

Oh.

Liz Allan  [00:09:33]:

And I know what you. I know you've moved, I know what you've moved to. What were you thinking, what was your thought process before you moved to electric?

Euan Macleod [00:09:42]:

So maybe just a brief step back. So think about Today in the UK, there's about 33 million vehicles on the road. I think roughly just passenger transportation. Ignore your HGVs and maybe to some extent, like commercial vehicles. 33 million vehicles, of which 1 1/2 million are EV. So actually, despite the fact it feels like we've been talking about EVs forever, we're still right at the very beginning, but for cars. And so to move to an EV now means you're still an early adopter. And actually we've got some time before we get into the mass market and maybe we'll talk about the challenges of the mass market as we move forward in the podcast.

Euan Macleod [00:10:19]:

So I was always of the view that my next car would be an EV. I didn't feel the need to go and change it, because, as I said, I worked at ChargePoint, you know, I'm not embarrassed to say that all the time I was at ChargePoint, I drove a diesel Mercedes. It was a perfectly good car.

Liz Allan  [00:10:36]:

Make me chuckle. I'm sorry, I get you, I get you. And I don't think you're the only one who's working for a CPO kind of drive.

Euan Macleod [00:10:45]:

You know, from my perspective, it wasn't a case of resistance to change. Actually, I did want to change, but I had a perfectly good car that I paid for. Why, why would I change it? And so I didn't. What swung out for me was coming to vodka, you know, I know I now have. I can charge at home. I should declare that I do drive a Tesla. So two things that, you know, bring some advantages to making that transition to ev. But I needed a car.

Euan Macleod [00:11:10]:

I suddenly saw the economic case for moving. You know, I'm now driving 15,000 miles a year. You don't need to be a super whiz kid at an Excel spreadsheet. Start figuring out that there's quite some significant savings on going electric, particularly if you can charge from home. And so I made the switch. And frankly, the premium the vehicle costs me is more than offset by the savings I make on fuel I make on, well, servicing. There is no servicing. Actually.

Euan Macleod [00:11:42]:

I thoroughly enjoyed the experience. I think I wrote a post on LinkedIn a few weeks back where I said I'd pulled up behind a really souped up Mercedes, as it happens, big tailpipes out the back going vroom, vroom. And I was kind of waiting for that moment of envy and jealousy to kick in. Thinking, I wish I had that car. Well, I just didn't. As far as I was concerned, I was in the base of the car. I was happy with my choice. So I'm one of the 95% who say they'll never go back.

Euan Macleod [00:12:11]:

And it was surprising to me how quickly I failed that. It was also surprising. I did have. The first time I drove from where I lived to Bristol, which is 100 miles, I did have range anxiety. Even though the car said I had 300 miles on the clock, I did have that instant of range anxiety. And by the way, I work in the charging industry, so I know more than a lot of people. It's a human instinct and I don't blame anyone for having that. But I'd driven the car for about a week and all of a sudden I just forgot, you know, it's just driving a car.

Euan Macleod [00:12:40]:

So it's been a good experience for me. I'm one. I'm not disappointed. It took me longer to make it, but I made it at the right time and it was right for me. And that's kind of if people are thinking about ev, you know, do it at the right time for you. No one's forcing anyone to switch, certainly not least of all me. So there you go. So, yeah, totally.

Euan Macleod [00:13:04]:

Good example.

Liz Allan  [00:13:05]:

No, I was going to say, I mean, yeah, no, no one's. No one's forcing them yet. And I'm not saying I don't like the word forcing. And actually, when it comes down to it, we need to reduce, you know, emissions. Not just. Not just carbon emissions, but, you know, kind of air pollution. And we need to reduce that, don't we? So, that's it. That's really it.

Liz Allan  [00:13:24]:

That's really important. And look at what you're doing, and look at what I'm doing and not try to go into smug mode, you know, but that's kind of important.

Euan Macleod [00:13:33]:

Far from it. I think I saw something you posted a few weeks back about, or reposted about the number of deaths that are associated with air pollution. You know, sustainability and, you know, new transportation options aside, actually, you know, I've got young kids, I've also got elderly parents. You know, the thought of improving their lives by reducing pollution's got to be a big driver. And a lot of people's thoughts. I'm sure a lot of that's kind of hidden from view, but, you know, pollution is a silent killer.

Liz Allan  [00:14:03]:

Exactly, exactly. And people don't actually realize that when they're little kids who are in reception year one, year two, Whatever. They're only little and they're walking behind all the cars parked up outside of school that have got their engines running. What are they all breathing in? But the little ones are all at tailpipe height, aren't they? Which just, if you think about it, that's pretty, pretty grim. It's, you know, so we do need to, we need to do something about it. But look, I'm not going to harp on about that. Let's go back. Let's go back to what you've just been saying.

Liz Allan  [00:14:33]:

So actually, do you know what? I want to go. I want to talk about something that you said to me about what the. Your CEO looked at EV charging and thought this could be easier and better. And your goal at Vodka is to make EV charging effortless. Just let me know. Tell me about what that looks like in practice. What do you see that looking like?

Euan Macleod [00:15:00]:

I, actually the person who runs the team here, Becky Leilani, we often have the conversation that people say, well, hasn't all this been sorted? And actually EV charging there and it's really easy to use. And you know, yes and no. Everyone will have read somewhere about concerns about reliability of EV charging infrastructure. I think reliability is an issue. And as we've talked about before, later on this year we're going to get the first set of mandatory reporting from CPOs about the reliability status. I think that's in November, so it's going to be interesting to see what comes from that.

Liz Allan  [00:15:39]:

And we'll take as they have to say, self report, which is like marking your own homework. But hey, that's another conversation.

Euan Macleod [00:15:47]:

We'Ll see, I think. And as I've already said, I drive a Tesla. So actually a different charging experience for many. And actually bear in mind I charge mostly at home. If I drive beyond the range of a battery, I'm charging a Tesla station. So I very rarely have to find a station that's not Tesla. So I think when we first came across one another, I posted some observations about my experience. So I purposefully went to the local area where I live to find stations that were advertised as contactless with contactless payment to find out what the non Tesla driver experience or the EV driver experience look like.

Euan Macleod [00:16:26]:

And let's just say it wasn't as easy as it should be. You know, cables are not cables is your preference. I don't have a particular issue personally about getting my own cable out, but there'll be certain parts of the population where that is a challenge. What surprised me was the quality of the contactless payment. Either it didn't work, wouldn't start a charge, would accept one brand of card but not the other, and vice versa was advertised as accepting contactless, but from a driver who was next to me would only accept an RFID card. So it was quite variable. And while it was never positioned as kind of a we're going to do a statistical survey on how many, you know, the performance of chargers. It was there as a. Well, if we are pushing effortless charging, has this problem been solved? And in a couple of sessions over, you know, five or six hours just driving around randomly trying to find chargers, we found actually it was quite poor.

Euan Macleod [00:17:23]:

And so actually I'm still encouraged by that. Well, I'm discouraged that there's a bad experience out there because when someone has a bad experience, it changes their behavior. But I'm encouraged that our mission around, our vision around effortless charging is still valid. Clearly we're going into the ground now. We have some test units, we'll be running a pilot and, you know, time will tell whether we've got it right or not. But I think about it, I come back to only a small proportion of drivers changing to EV in the grand scheme of things. And so there's a whole population of people who will have anxiety, have some concerns, just not have sufficient knowledge about what that means for them. But if I can walk into a coffee shop and buy a cup of coffee with a credit card, why can't I simply turn up at an EV charging station and use a credit card? Now, I know the regulations from last year have mandated that certainly in the world of AC U22 kilowatt chargers, or sorry above, 8kW needs to have contactless payment.

Euan Macleod [00:18:25]:

Good news, execution needs to be better, which would be my finding. I still think there's a place for not excluding below 8 kilowatts. You know, if you think hotels, I mean, frankly, they shouldn't be installing, I mean, I would say 7kW is an ideal range for them to be charging overnight. If not three and a half kilowatts. Why, why can't they have a contactless credit card? So I think there's more work to be done. Good news is, you know, we're on a mission to make it easy. Cables, contactless credit card, no apps, no memberships, no signups. You just simply arrive, you type your card, you plug it in and off you go and do whatever you're going to do on the day.

Liz Allan  [00:19:04]:

And you went to an event recently, didn't you? She's an electric. We were talking about this before we started recording and you were talking about people's thoughts on charging. What, what were the main things or even just like having, you know, an EV and the charging, the whole situation. What, what were your thoughts on that one? What came out most.

Euan Macleod [00:19:27]:

So why did I go, you know, 50 drivers, give or take a few percentage points for women. And so if, frankly, if we're claiming to be providing effortless charging experience, we want to make sure we're taking a broad set of views about what effortless charging really looks like. And so I turned up, I kind of knew I was going to be in the minority, but actually I was the only male in the room. So I just dug in, listened hard, and I was made to feel welcome. It was a great day in a beautiful location, I would say lots of. And maybe to some extent the audience was self selecting. It was advertised as, you know, an EV day. So you know, but nevertheless a lot of passion and enthusiasm making the transition to ev.

Euan Macleod [00:20:11]:

I think from an EV car perspective, things I picked up where it can feel like quite a technical sale sometimes, particularly if you're buying a new car. And I know you and I have talked about actually, you know, or is there even an effective means for dealerships to be selling EVs in the first place? I know it's quite a broad experience, the fact that, you know, I remember this and I hate this too, but you know, you're trying to negotiate a price and the salesman scampers off to a back office to have a chat about a better price. You know, you're left not quite feeling whether you've got a good deal or not. You generally find that you've not so transparent. Pricing was a big thing. Volvo was there for the day. They've obviously made big strides to make pricing transparent. On the EV charging front, it wasn't a male female split issue particularly, but it was a call out from the floor about someone's grandparents who had the desire and the wherewithal to move to an EV.

Euan Macleod [00:21:09]:

But frankly the apps were just killing them. That was the big barrier to them.

Liz Allan  [00:21:16]:

The charging apps rather than the.

Euan Macleod [00:21:17]:

Yeah, yeah, rather than. Well, I mean, who knows, maybe the in car apps could equally be as challenging. But certainly the charging apps were the stated reason for not wanting to move. And I think this just gets back to, you know, diffusion of innovation. We're the innovators early adopter stage. That means there's a whole bunch of people, all your grandmothers and actually the more Broadly technology unconfident people who might see that as a barrier and all that does is it just slows down transition. So I think, you know, we're not, I'm not sitting here saying the world will go contactless. There's clearly a space for apps and contactless in, in the right space.

Euan Macleod [00:21:56]:

But you know, when we say what effortlessness looks like? You know, can I find, can I start a charge, can I pay for a charge and just get on with my day? You know, the act of charging an EV shouldn't become an event in itself. It should always be transparent to your day. Just turn up your plug in, you go off and do something and that's kind of what we're aiming for.

Liz Allan  [00:22:20]:

Well that's good. It's funny because we were talking about this beforehand, weren't we? And I was saying, you know, my mother in law is in her late 70s now and she's got a phone with, you know, apps on it and she uses WhatsApp and she, she started, you know, kind of using them during lockdown. So we get calls on WhatsApp. Although I would sometimes see from her nose upwards like a chad, you know, but, actually you're right, it's. You can't, you can't kind of ex. We're talking about this being an inclusive journey, aren't we? So it's got to be, it's got to be the. We've got to make it simple like you say it's never going to be like just going to a petrol station. I wouldn't really want that anyway because they're really smelly and I've said that before on here but you know, but actually in a petrol station you can't just leave it and walk off and go and have a bite to eat or whatever.

Liz Allan  [00:23:13]:

Whereas you can with the charge. Well, you know, sometimes, sometimes there's problems but we need to get over those problems, don't we? That's the main thing.

Euan Macleod [00:23:22]:

Yeah, a lot. Look, I would always say, people ask me in my private circles, my friend circles about what's it like to drive an ev, should I think about one for the next one. And I'd always say at least consider an EV. I think EVs are particularly good if you can charge at home and then access a supercharging type network if you're driving beyond the range of your battery. I think the public charging network is kind of optimized for that use case. However, if we're really to make the transition happen, we've got to deal with people who can't charge at home, you know, because, yes, the Levi's scheme will go some way to providing on street charging. It won't be ubiquitous, it can never be. It's part of the puzzle.

Euan Macleod [00:24:12]:

The workplace, I think, needs to stand up. I think people, people who have got access to a workplace, you know, when a car, a car's idle for 95% of its time, you know, when you go to work, you park it and you leave all day, you know, that's clearly a place where car charging can happen. And then in between, there's your kind of destinations. We've listed them before, so this kind of. It works today, 95%, 93% of people who own an EV chart can charge at home. That basically means we haven't really touched people who can't and they are struggling. So how do we unlock that? And there's no one silver bullet to any of this. We are focused on one segment, destination charging, because we think that's part of the puzzle and we just want to make it as effortless as we humanly can.

Euan Macleod [00:24:54]:

So people. And actually it's great for businesses because if you've got a great charging experience, people come back, you know, yeah, that's good for their business model. They sell another hotel room, they get another guest for the day at their leisure facility, you know, whatever it may be.

Liz Allan  [00:25:08]:

And we've not had that opportunity before, have we, to kind of integrate charging or integrate something in, in addition to that kind of that consumer experience, really. And I suppose, you know, being able to provide charging at a hotel, like you say, will bring more people in if you use that experience. I mean, my husband and I went to Eastbourne in January and we went to one charger and had a major problem. And we, we parked up, we just said, right, we've got enough range, we don't really need much, it's fine. And we walked past a massive hotel on the front that had some AC chargers in there, but they were not on any map systems. They were, they weren't on. On Google. They were on Map, you know, kind of on.

Liz Allan  [00:25:59]:

They were. So they weren't on Octopus, Electroverse or ZMAP or anything like that. And my husband actually popped around there and they said, no, sorry, they're just for residents only.

Euan Macleod [00:26:10]:

But think about that for a minute. If you're booking a hotel, do you go to booking.com or do you go to Zap? You go to. You go to booking.com or one of the other ones, you don't you, don't you know, for a hotel stay, you know, unlikely you're going to stop at a hotel for onroute charging. Probably better, better ways of charging your vehicle. But if I can tell you booking.com now has a button where you click it so you have a charger. And I've spoken to any number of hotels and actually kind of, you know, country pubs, stroke hotels and they've all asked, you know, can I find a good answer. That's where people go to look for this booking dot com. So I get it.

Euan Macleod [00:26:52]:

The hotel wants to offer this as a value add service for their clients. So generally not public facing. And where was it going to go with that? Yeah, so, and so it doesn't surprise me that you don't find them on ZapMap because that's not where you go looking for a hotel. I think 80% of people, 80% of EV drivers will search for a hotel on the basis of your driving. I'm one of them. And then they'll make a decision. I think 40 to 50% will then make a decision on the basis of whether it's an EV charger. So it's a massive uptick, it's a value add for them.

Euan Macleod [00:27:23]:

I think 6% of hotels have an EV charger in the UK. So again right at the very start. So for the hotel it's competitive advantage now where frankly in picking a time frame, 5, 10 years time, if you don't have an EV charger, people are going elsewhere. Potentially depends on the quality of your rooms and your food and the rest of it. I know it's kind of a complex service proposition but EV charging is definitely a thing for hotels.

Liz Allan  [00:27:48]:

But what I would say with that one, and I'm not gonna argue because I do, I do get it, but they weren't advertising it anywhere so a guest would have rocked up and just seen the charges in the car park. All the time we were there, we kept walking past because we were going to various places, they were just empty. They were empty. So I get, I get your point but actually have it on your, have it on the website, you know, advertise it and, and you know what, in some ways you are increasing your own SEO for your business if you are having it in multiple places. So yeah, get what you're saying about ZAP map and stuff like that, but actually you can put it on that map ZapMap or a lecture vertical and have it so that it's showing, but just showing so that it's kind of like Restrictions apply, you know, for sure.

Euan Macleod [00:28:39]:

And you know, given what research I've seen, I would encourage hotels to at least through the search sites notify that they've got an EV charger available if for another reason it's just going to drive more traffic to their business. Why we knew we are still relatively in the early days, you know, these things will get ironed out in time.

Liz Allan  [00:28:59]:

Yeah, no, I agree. I think it's, it's gonna, it's gonna take time. But like, but like you said, it just, it is just about making it visible, making it simple, you know, and, and like you said, that's kind of what you're, what you're looking at. You said you talked about the pilots very briefly, didn't you just talk a little bit about when you look at launching and kind of, you know, what your what, what your experience has been so far.

Euan Macleod [00:29:28]:

So you know, to be clear, we're manufacturing a unit, we're going to build some back office software and clearly we've integrated our parents company's payment capability. We have a number of units in the ground now. Right now I think we've got a bunch in the uk. I think I know we've got a bunch in the UK and we've all also got some in France where our technical expertise resides. We'll be launching with a small number of customers, pilot customers as we get into autumn to do the final checks on what will look like the final manufactured specification. You know, clearly tooling up for a production run. You want to make sure it actually does what it says in the tin. You know, it's not only testing the electronics software but actually all kinds of hooks together that will inform us.

Euan Macleod [00:30:21]:

So we're not, you know, that's, that's not just a couple of weeks that we'll be doing. We'll be working with these customers for a few months and we'll get a lot of learning out the back of that and then that will inform the final specification that we'll send to the manufacturer. And you know, I'm not going to put a timeline on that today but you know, we're not a million miles away from where we want to be. So that's what we're doing with the pilot.

Liz Allan  [00:30:41]:

I was going to say and it's, and it's quite nice to hear it from a, so a company that's, that's, that's predominantly a payment company because that's what your, your background is who are manufacturing a chart, you know, A charger. So you know your payment is going to be effective. You know that because, you know, the, the have. There are situations where payment failure is one of the things. Sometimes it's communications as well, but payment failure comes up quite regularly with regards to that side of things. Do you know what I mean? Doesn't it?

Euan Macleod [00:31:18]:

Well, we have to get it right. I mean, the parent companies have to get it right. I mean, if you turn up on a bus and try to tap onto a bus, it doesn't work. What are you going to do? They're not going to refuse you. So, you know, all payment, all places, of course, want to build the most reliable hardware and processes and systems. You know, the acid test is when it's put in front of a customer that frankly has to go from A to B. So you know, reliability clearly is a really important measure for us. You know, I'll go back and say it, fine, start a charge and pay for a session.

Euan Macleod [00:31:48]:

If you get all those things right, customers will come back.

Liz Allan  [00:31:52]:

So with regards to kind of the. Will they be manufactured in the UK or will it be manufactured kind of in. In sort of like in Europe? Because I know that that's obvious, I think. Am I right? Remind me where, where VIX and Cuba. Well, Cuba Group is.

Euan Macleod [00:32:09]:

Well, they're global. I mean, they're not just UK businesses. I mean between them, they work across Europe, Australia, South Africa, North America, all in public transportation. Transportation area. So, you know, we have a complex supply chain when it comes to manufacturing. The difference, you know, they're called validators, the things that you see when you walk under a bus. But of course that integrates all the pavement technology. The manufacturer of the unit is, you know, we're very conscious of people's sustainability requirements when it comes to manufacturing kit and you know, certain locations are certainly falling out of favor and shipping stuff halfway around the world is not something we're going to do.

Euan Macleod [00:32:52]:

So, you know, all things considered, it's likely that we'll build close to home. But we've not selected a final manufacturing base yet.

Liz Allan  [00:32:59]:

Okay. And so will you be. So because your destination is charging or looking at that, will you also be looking at a kind of optimizing kind of fleet? Fleet charging as a. Well.

Euan Macleod [00:33:14]:

So bear in mind our expertise is around payment. Fleets generally don't require payment. So for the time being, at least in this iteration or this, this generation of a technology fleet's probably difficult for us to enter, not impossible because clearly there are some mixed use cases. You know, you think about the workplace. It is probably the easiest one where you've got people, employees, visitors, etc and potentially FL charging. Clearly a use case that we want to address. But for the time being, the market segment we're focused on are those destinations where the business or the location wants to set a charge for charging. Now, we give them full control of the price. You know, we're not setting the price in our traditional CPU model.

Euan Macleod [00:33:59]:

We sell them the hardware and the back end and the payment process, they set the price, we take all the payment processing, return proceeds to clients, et cetera, et cetera. So that's where we're at at the moment. Not to say that as we move beyond that first deployment in the uk, we don't start to think about how we can build out different use cases.

Liz Allan  [00:34:19]:

So, what would your benchmark for success kind of look like currently, do you think?

Euan Macleod [00:34:27]:

I can answer that in two ways. So, one, from an EV charging perspective, you know, if you were to put yourself five or 10 years out as an EV driver, you can drive to somewhere you want to be and you'll find there's an EV charger. Now that's an industry thing rather than a vocal specific thing. But I think we have to get there because not everyone can charge at.

Liz Allan  [00:34:45]:

Home.

Euan Macleod [00:34:47]:

Where it's convenient and often the cheapest way to charge your vehicle. So I think more businesses who think about how they can attract customers to their location by having an EV charger, they're doing a couple of things. One is increased footfall into their business and they will know how to monetize that, you know, be it a hotel room or be someone shopping, whatever it may be. And they're also enabling the transition. So I think that's really important. I think for those people who are thinking about the transition, I think about it hard. There's a lot of stuff in the media that if you don't, if you're not anywhere close to the industry, you're read and taken at face value. There's a lot of FUD out there, unfortunately.

Euan Macleod [00:35:27]:

There's some great people doing some great things. This podcast undoubtedly is one of them. But there are lots of different places where you can get proper information. I was serious. Think about whether EV is right for you. It might not be the answer. But the further we get into this transition, particularly with the evolution of the charging network, which clearly is running ahead, I think of where we need to be, the open opportunity to make the switch. So, you know, it's not a personal plea, but I guess it's hard when you're changing your car next.

Euan Macleod [00:35:54]:

So two things for me, really.

Liz Allan  [00:35:57]:

Yeah, I was, I was gonna say, and just, I just want to step back a second because when we first, when we first met and you brought this up earlier was your mystery. Was your mystery shopper experience and ran relating to benchmarking and what you saw for your mystery shopper. I like the way you called it that. Actually, that was quite good. What, what would you say that, what would you say was missing most out of those mystery shopper experiences then?

Euan Macleod [00:36:30]:

Oh, payment was the big, by far the biggest issue either, just plainly not working. I randomly selected locations. The one thing I would say, they were all AC charging locations. I didn't pick any. You know, we're trying to build a proposition for the market. So let's look at what it looks like today in the segments and propositions we're offering. So we went out looking for AC chargers. We look, you know, call out to Melanie.

Euan Macleod [00:36:58]:

We used ZAPMAP to find locations and we just plotted a route and just went charger to charger to charger to see what the experience was. I had no idea what I was going to get into. It was regrettably frustrating, maybe I was just unlucky. But we did it in two days and we did it twice. We did it once towards where I live in Berkshire and we did it once in Bristol just to kind of completely separate it. And on both occasions, actually the promise of being able to pay in an ability to make a payment using a credit or debit card or some other contact tireless option just wasn't there. So that was surprising to me because as I've said, I drive a Tesla, I charge at home. If I need to charge on route, I go to the Tesla Supercharger network.

Euan Macleod [00:37:40]:

I've been told by many that I'm not a real EV driver because of that. That's what it is. So, you know, that was to confirm because, you know, some people around Identity would just say, well, surely that problem's problem's been solved. Why are you, why are you trying to resolve the problem? At least in my limited view, the problem's not solved. Now, some of that could be due to the change in, you know, rules, regulations that went in last November. You know, all of a sudden people are starting to build 22 kilowatt terminals with payment and actually they're not, they've not got it integrated properly or it doesn't work. Some did bark, by the way, not all or, you know, it just wasn't as good as it should be. So that gave me confidence that effortless charging and what we were doing was at least directionally correct and there would be an appetite for that in the market.

Liz Allan  [00:38:30]:

Okay, I'm just going back, I'm going to, I'm going to step back to what you just said then about not being an EV driver driving a Tesla. What I would say is that if you're working for a charging company, driving a Tesla doesn't stop you from using the REST regular network. And actually that makes it beneficial like you did with the mystery shopper too, to be using it because otherwise you've not got a frame of reference for what anybody else is going through.

Euan Macleod [00:38:58]:

And this was it. Otherwise we were just sitting on our own fishbowl trying to figure out what the world is a problem. So I regularly stop in and make visits to different places now even if I don't have to because you know, generally, you know, I just do it and.

Liz Allan  [00:39:15]:

It's just my, yeah, like I say, it's just my opinion. So I'm glad, I'm glad you do because it's, it's really, it's really, it's really about kind of like understanding, you know, from, from your, from your point of view as an EV driver from, from other people's point of view. You kind of know that the Tesla supercharger experience just works. I'm not saying it, the locations are always perfect but you know that it just works. I've, I've used it. I was driving a Tesla last year during the EV rally, so, so you know, I know, I know it works but it is about just understanding what other people are experiencing. Because you know, when we move to that mass adoption we're going to be talking about people who can't afford a Tesla. Although Teslas are getting cheaper, aren't they when they are used?

Liz Allan  [00:40:06]:

But you know, to me, you know, that's the main thing.

Euan Macleod [00:40:11]:

I don't keep a running tally on the price of EVs but I think the number of EVs below 30,000 now these days is growing very quickly. And let's not forget, you know, Quentin Wilson I think said yesterday or this morning, yesterday I think it was, you know, EVs on the second hand market are now cheaper than their petrol. You know, maybe that's a temporary thing until people kind of figure out actually it's a really good deal because I can save, potentially save money through fueling and servicing but you know, price is becoming less and less of an issue. Yeah, clearly if you want to go to top end luxury brands, you're paying a lot of money but you're also paying a lot of money if you want to buy a top end Mercedes. I know. So I think it's becoming more possible and I think there are certainly some advantages in the secondhand market. And bear in mind 50% of your vehicles in Europe, it's probably roughly the same in the UK. 50% of vehicles end up in the corporate fleet.

Euan Macleod [00:41:03]:

So 50% of vehicles are making it into the more consumer market. And actually a lot of people don't buy brand new cars, they buy second hand cars. So actually some of the barriers are going.

Liz Allan  [00:41:14]:

Did you, was yours a new one then? Did you get it?

Euan Macleod [00:41:17]:

I mean, it's a personal thing. I mean I bought my first car for 500 quid when I was young.

Liz Allan  [00:41:23]:

Oh, mine was 300. I'm beating you.

Euan Macleod [00:41:25]:

It was a Vauxhall Nova. I can even remember the, the, the registration number and I can't remember any of the others, but I can remember that one. And then I just kind of went through a series of. I owned cars. That's what I felt was the thing that you needed to do. Then I eventually kind of got into, you know, higher purchase or, or some other form of borrowing money and that, that became the thing to do and I just eventually worked out that you're always paying for a car. And so actually now I just lease because I've taken the view, rightly or wrongly, that, you know, the act of owning a car means you just expose yourself to depreciation. And so, you know, as soon as I got over that mental hurdle, leasing a car for three or four years, where you've got no, yes, you've got no option to buy the car outright but frankly you're probably going to change your car anyway at that point.

Euan Macleod [00:42:15]:

I'm fortunate that I've been able to make those decisions. I know not everyone can but, you know, leasing is the way I went.

Liz Allan  [00:42:22]:

I was going to say, really, it's a bit like upgrading your phone, isn't it? You know, you kind of, you end up taking a contract out on your mobile phone and then you get a new phone and then, you know, you get that. So like I have got a SIM only contract with one company and then I have the phone through Apple and I, I just have them contact me when I can upgrade if I want to.

Euan Macleod [00:42:43]:

I always start with the ambition of buying a phone and keeping it for 10 years. But the reality is generally within the first two years I drop it and break it, so.

Liz Allan  [00:42:50]:

Oh, God. Oh. That's why you need a hard case and one of those things on the front.

Euan Macleod [00:42:55]:

Yeah, even with the hard case I find the way of breaking things.

Liz Allan  [00:42:57]:

So I thought that was just me. But yeah, I learned from my experience of smashing the screen on my iPhone, so I now have one of those rocks, rugged ice fronts. But. And I was also going to say my very first car was a really disgusting kind of yellowy brownie Talbot Sunbeam, but I can't remember what the registration was, but yeah, it cost me 300 quid from my next door neighbor.

Euan Macleod [00:43:21]:

A353GSA was a registration number. So that probably dates me about an A rage car. But it got me to and from Scotland. I think I did about 20,000 miles on that until finally got towed onto the back of a scrap lorry and I sold it for 50 quid. Yeah, but it did be.

Liz Allan  [00:43:38]:

Well, you just reminded me, actually, I think the first time I ever went on a motorway was with my friend and I had problems. There was a problem with the car and I couldn't even take it on the motorway, so it wasn't particularly the most efficient or, you know, lovely car. But anyway, just to start off with. So listen, final, let's ask. Final question. Question then. So if every driver in the UK were going to use a VA charger.

Euan Macleod [00:44:04]:

Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:44:05]:

What would that be? I know, I know we've talked about this, but what would that kind of experience feel like on a daily basis?

Euan Macleod [00:44:16]:

So I hate to say it, but I'd almost hope it was transparent to them. You know, you, you arrive at somewhere that you want to be, you pull a cable out of the unit, you plug it in, you tap your card, you walk away and do what you're going to do. You're not trying to download an app, you're not trying to find an app, you're not trying to register an app, you know, you're not trying to find the cable in your front. It's simply as you turn up your park, you plug, you tap, you go. And so to some extent, you know, when that person got home at night. I don't want the EV charging experience to be the topic of sensation around the table. I want them to talk about the day that they've just had it, whatever they were doing. And so that might sound a bit odd, but actually that means they had a very positive experience about the destination they were at.

Euan Macleod [00:44:59]:

Because frankly, if they have a really, if they need or in some way required to charge at that destination. They have a really shocking destination that colors everything. You know, that's the first thing they get home and moan about. You know, I couldn't charge my car and I had to stop off at two different places to top up. So that's kind of how I think about it so very much thinking through the lens of the host who will have these EV chargers. They are providing a great experience to their drivers and it's not the EV charging facility that's driving the experience of the drivers. So back to what I said, almost like we're transparent. So people want to return to the location they've just visited and then you're.

Liz Allan  [00:45:38]:

Looking at the charging is just a Brucey bonus.

Euan Macleod [00:45:41]:

It isn't it is you know it's just there, you know my view. So I stayed at a hotel in Bristol. There are some days when I'm the only EV car in a car park that can hold 1212 cars. There are other days I go in and there's more than half filled with EVs. Now maybe it's particularly corporate, corporate people in their corporate cars. But you know the conversation, the conversation with the team at the hotel is look, this is happening in front of your eyes. You know, people are probably trying, I say where do your drivers come from? Well they come from London, it's 100 miles, guess what, they either charge with you overnight or they have to stop on the way home. It depends on the car etc.

Euan Macleod [00:46:22]:

Etc. You know, people are searching for accommodation or hotels with EV charges. So you need to put yourself on the map. Of course, you know, they put the tools in the water, they try a couple of bays, see what happens, you know. But in five or ten years time they'll be like table stakes. It's a bit like you remember the days when you had, when you went to a hotel and either there was no WI fi or you had to pay for WI fi.

Liz Allan  [00:46:47]:

Oh yeah, there are some of them still like that I'm afraid.

Euan Macleod [00:46:49]:

Yeah, maybe the really tight fisted hoteliers of the world but that's not the case now. I can't remember going to a hotel recently where WI fi is not being free. I mean not, not saying the quality of the WI fi has been brilliant but you've got at least some WI fi, you know. Can you remember the days, you and I both probably where you only got a mobile phone in a job if you absolutely needed a mobile phone otherwise you weren't getting a mobile phone well, these days either you're getting given a mobile phone or you're given an allowance to go and buy a mobile phone. It's just part of the package now. It's certainly in the corporate world, it's just part of the package where we are with EV charging, we're just at the front of that. We'll go back to the days when we had to pay for Wi-Fi. Well, you know, in time it will become, yes, you can have EV charging.

Euan Macleod [00:47:29]:

We've got it in the car park.

Liz Allan  [00:47:32]:

And if they, and if, if we're talking about hotels and I'll finish in a second, but if we talk about hotels who've got AMPR cameras and they haven't got charging in there, it'd be interesting to find out if they could kind of run a survey on the, through the AMPR cameras about how many EV drivers are actually come to their, or come to their hotel when they've not got EV charging. Do you know what I mean?

Euan Macleod [00:47:55]:

Yeah, I don't know. I mean there's no, there's no perfect solution, you know. So, you know, if a hotel's got unlimited car parking and have electrified a few bays, they can reasonably say, well only park here if you're an EV and you want to charge. Most hotels aren't in that position, they have limited charging and you know, the hotels I stay in, it's part of the paid for service. I think it'll be 20 quid a night to charge a car to park a car overnight in Bristol. It's quite expensive and clearly if they're not going to hold the bay free, if someone's willing to come and do it. So I think there's a bit of give and take. There's no perfect model yet, you know, and as we go through this transition where only some people want to charge and not everyone has an EV but you know, skip ahead and every bay probably or most of the bays will be electrified.

Euan Macleod [00:48:35]:

So this problem is a transitionary problem managing supply and demand. And we can have a whole conversation with customers or potential businesses about, you know, how to prepare for the future. It's not all about what you need today, it's about what you might need in the next three or four years to be made on infrastructure, ordering extra, extra power, you know, putting civils and ducts in ahead of time so you're not, you know, you can be more efficient with your, with your costs when you're making that initial installation. So yeah, you know, I'm very positive about the future change that is required. Some people will be absolutely happy with the change and run straight at it. Others will need some encouragement. I think it's the responsibility of the EV charging industry of OEMs, of other people to remove some of the barriers that would stop people making the transition. Volcker's mission is to make EV charging effortless and we're going to work really hard to deliver that.

Liz Allan  [00:49:31]:

Good for you. Right, Well, I look forward to that. So listen, on that note, I'm going to say thank you. And it's been, it's been really interesting and, and I look forward to kind of seeing, seeing, you know, talking to you at an event in future and, and having a conversation about, about it, how it's, how it's all going. So I will share your, your webs, the vocal website on in the show notes and yeah, just, and, and your LinkedIn Prof. Profile as well. So probably best thing, get everybody to check you out on, on LinkedIn and have, have a nosy and, and just see what, see what you're offering because it's, it's quite, it's a, it's a different user friendly, payment friendly and supportive kind of charging experience that you're, that you're looking to launch anyway. So, so on that note, Euan, thank you ever so much for your time.

Liz Allan  [00:50:18]:

It's been lovely to talk to you, to be here. Thank you, Liz, and sorry it's tough. So long. So to everybody else watching and listening, please subscribe and share all of the, you know, all of this podcast and have a catch up with what we've already got out there. We've got a LinkedIn page so please, you know, have a look at the electric evolution at the LinkedIn page and all of that lovely stuff. And on that note, I will say thank you, Euan, and thanks to everyone for watching and listening. See you later. Bye.