Episode 157: Liz Allan and Jade Edwards - Zapmap Insights, Hubs & Simple Charging

Episode 157: Liz Allan and Jade Edwards - Zapmap Insights, Hubs & Simple Charging.

Liz Allan speaks to Jade Edwards, Head of Insights at Zapmap, about how data and customer feedback are shaping the future of public EV charging in the UK. Jade explains how Zapmap’s insights reveal clear growth in charging hubs and ultra-rapid chargers, as well as the acceleration of on-street provision beyond London. She discusses the role of utilisation and reliability data in guiding investment decisions for charge point operators and local authorities, and why driver simplicity, contactless and roaming payments without unnecessary steps, is key to confidence at the plug. The conversation also highlights Zapmap’s recent industry reports, including “Are We Nearly There Yet?”, which helps councils to identify gaps in EV charging provision. Jade also shares her perspective on signage, visibility, and future trends that will influence EV driver behaviour and industry strategy.

Quote of the Episode:
“Ask the right questions, then find the data that will help you answer those questions.” — Jade Edwards.

Jade Edwards Bio:
Jade Edwards is the Head of Insights at Zapmap, where she leads the delivery of data and analysis that support charge point operators, local authorities, and government in building reliable EV charging networks. With a background in data analytics, Jade focuses on turning complex information into actionable insights that improve utilisation, reliability, and the overall driver experience. 

Jade Edwards Links:
Website: https://www.zap-map.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jade-edwards-0a16b51

Transcript

Liz Allan  [00:00:02]:
So today I have with me Jade Edwards, and she is the head of insights@zapmap. Jade, thank you for joining me on this. It's. It's absolutely lovely to finally properly get to meet you, rather than just dashing in and out and saying hi at events.

Jade Edwards [00:00:18]:
Hi, Eliza, nice to meet you too, properly. We've done many hugs, but just very quickly. Hi. Hi. Hug. Hi.

Liz Allan  [00:00:26]:
It's just. It's mad, isn't it? You know, and. And there is. There is a joke that goes on about Michele, who works with me, and Niall Riddle, and I kept forgetting if they'd met, and they just take the pee out of me now because they pretend that they've not met, but they have loads of times, and I just kept forgetting. So. So anyway, lovely to see you on here. Thank you again. Let's talk a little bit about you and ZapMap and what you kind of did before you came to ZapMap, because your background was quite specific in order, you know, and it.

Liz Allan  [00:01:00]:
And it works quite. It works really nicely with what you're doing now, doesn't it?

Jade Edwards [00:01:06]:
Yeah, definitely. So I joined ZapMap in April 2022. I was coming back from maternity leave after having my second daughter, and I was looking for a new challenge. And I'd been working at a data and insights agency for about 12 years before that, but it was on the insurance side of the world, so general insurance, home insurance, car insurance. And it was basically looking at all the data in the industry on the pricing of insurance and then packaging that up and selling that back out into the industry. So that's what I'd been doing. And I'd seen it from every angle, really, over those 12 years. I'd done the sales.

Jade Edwards [00:01:50]:
I'd started in the operational piece of all the data collection and the quality processes, and then creating all the reports. I'd then done the sales piece. I'd done some of the marketing, specifically the marketing and product side of things. So I'd seen all these different bits and I really wanted something that was going to bring it together, but in a business that had more kind of purpose about it. So I really wanted to move into something that I felt was really making a difference in the world. So I'd been looking, looking, looking at loads of different kinds of things. And then I got the call about ZapMa,p and I didn't know anything about electric vehicles. So an agency spoke to me and I said, I don't know anything about electric vehicles.

Jade Edwards [00:02:35]:
I just know they're the future. I just know instinctively that's the way things are going to go. And I think it's the right, the right way. It's just, I don't, you know, I didn't know anything about them at that stage, and they said, well, trust me, if you knew anything about electric vehicles, you'd know Zapman, they're market leader and what they do, you know, etc. Etc. And I thought, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, you give me the cell now. And then I met Mel and I met Ben, who was a co-founder with Mel, and had some conversations. I thought this sounded like a fantastic opportunity.

Jade Edwards [00:03:08]:
It's exactly hitting the sweet spot of all the things I wanted to do, really keen. But I still didn't understand the impact that ZAPMAP had. And then when I joined and then started getting into it, I was like, wow, they were not, the agency was not making this up. Like, they really do have such a huge impact. And then I felt so privileged to be able to be part of that and be part of the journey going forward.

Liz Allan  [00:03:36]:
And you were saying to me, weren't you, before, before we started recording that, that Melanie Samael needed, she realised that Insights were needed, and she was kind of doing all of this herself. And you know, I was saying to you that running us, running a small business, you end up, you do end up doing lots of stuff, as I, I can tell you, you know, and, and actually getting her recognizing and being able to bring you in kind of spurred on so many other, so many things from there, didn't it?

Jade Edwards [00:04:09]:
Yeah, yeah. So she'd recognized from the start of ZapMap, really that as well as providing the data to EV drivers and that being hugely important, it was also hugely important to provide the data and the insight into the industry and be able to do that thought leadership and support the growth of the industry overall, that it was kind of two sides of the same coin. You've got to support the EV drivers, but you've got to support the CPOs and all the companies that work around them to help make it happen and make that transition happen. So, yeah, recognising that was just amazing in my view and really forward thinking. So. So yeah, it was really, it was great for me to come in and go, right, okay, we've got a springboard here, we've got some stuff already started and now I can make it my own and help grow the business.

Liz Allan  [00:05:01]:
So tell me, tell me a little bit about what you and the Insights team are providing, you know, because you're involved in a lot of different things, aren't you? But kind of. So, I mean, there might be people who don't really know much like you did, you know, don't really know much about ZapMap. Do you want to just kind of go back a second and just give a little bit of an explanation about, you know, kind of what, what ZapMap actually were set up to do and then what bit you do?

Jade Edwards [00:05:31]:
Yeah, yeah, certainly, yeah. So ZapMap is the UK's leading EV charging platform. So it's set up as an app to help EV drivers charge with confidence when they're out and about. So essentially, we bring in data from every CPO that we possibly can. So whether that's a really large charge point operator like Tesla or whether it's, you know, tiny, someone who's got a few garden centres, we try to bring that data in from absolutely everyone we can. So the EV drivers have got the full spectrum within ZapMap of all the different charging options. So we serve that up to EV drivers. The app really helps people when they're out and about.

Jade Edwards [00:06:22]:
But then, equally, the other side of the business is taking the data and saying, Well, what can you do with that? That's more of a B2B context, or how can you help the industry with that data? And that's my side of the business where we're looking at, okay, how can we package it all up and how can we provide that back to ChargePoint operators so they can understand their position within the market and how their competitors are doing, how they're doing and what opportunities they could be looking for? How could they better serve their customers? We also package that up for the government and for local authorities, sub-national transport bodies, people like that, so that they can understand what the sort of industry looks like overall and how it is growing and developing over time. And then we also work with, say, the media. So we're always trying to get the facts out into the media, try and counter misinformation and put out the really positive stories about actually how things are growing and shaping and what that means for EV drivers now and for the EV drivers of the future.

Liz Allan  [00:07:28]:
Because it was interesting, wasn't it, when you know, kind of the, the information that you provide with regards to kind of like the number of, the number of charges. So when you, I think when you put your last report out, we've got, I'm just looking at it now. So you had eight, was it eight? 82,369 charges over 40,479 locations, which is huge. But that's not the end of it, is it? Because, you know, it isn't until we look at all of the, the kind of, the other air, you know, the other areas with regards to home charging and everywhere like that, that actually the whole picture. And I know that that's what Charge UK have kind of been looking at as well, isn't it? The overall number of. Of workplace charging and everything else to counter that level of misinformation that's out there when people kind of go, there aren't any chargers, there's no infrastructure. Just because it looks a little bit different doesn't mean it's not there. It's kind of that, isn't it?

Jade Edwards [00:08:32]:
Yeah, it's absolutely that. And as we focus, you know, really focus on the public charging network, but yeah, you need to take into account that is a piece of the puzzle. That is the beauty of charging an electric car, that for a lot of people, you can do that at home, you can do that work as well as go somewhere that is dedicated to actually charging it publicly. So, yeah, yeah, it's, it's that whole picture and that's what we're constantly trying to help to get that out there. And we've worked with, you know, some really great journalists on various different projects to be able to share that sort of information. And it's just to us, it's really, really important that we keep fighting the good fight, keep getting the data out there and, and start to see these more positive stories of which, you know, we've had some great ones in, in just the last week around the additional funding and measures that are being put in by the government. So it's good to see some of those kinds of mainstream media stories breaking through as well as not just industry stories, which is really good.

Liz Allan  [00:09:38]:
Yeah. And giving consumers that ability to actually, you know, I know it's not perfect, but to be able to put, you know, have a grant to go towards an EV. I know it's, I know it's not necessarily used EVs, but, you know, there will be people who will use, utilise that grant, and you know, and the OEM.

Jade Edwards [00:10:02]:
It starts with a new vehicle, doesn't it? That's got to come in, you know, as the first point, and then it can become the used vehicles and develop those sales as well. So I think it's. Anything that can help to stimulate that and stimulate that demand has got to be a good thing, really. And then we need to work on, okay, what's the next step? So what do we need to do about used vehicles? And certainly that's anything like that we're constantly getting involved with to go, okay, if we can help in any way in any of these campaigns, we absolutely, absolutely will do.

Liz Allan  [00:10:37]:
And that's brilliant because I was going to say, you know, the used market doesn't just grow overnight. It's not like waving a magic wand or anything. Like you've just said, it comes in new and then it goes down through you know, various kinds of used channels, doesn't it, after that? And, and a lot of people who are driving around in cars these days, you know, they're, they're not driving new cars.  I was saying to somebody else today, we didn't buy a new EV, but we, you know, and we were kind of, because ours is a couple of years old now, it just takes time. We were really lucky that we did get what we got because the ones that we were looking at were just going, just going like hot hotcakes as it were. So yeah, it's, it's kind of. But it's growing, isn't it? As you go through that three-year buying cycle, especially with the kind of cars being bought free through businesses and stuff like that. I think it's about three or five, isn't it? You know, then the, then the used market starts growing.

Liz Allan  [00:11:38]:
But like you say, you know, the number of the charge, the charging network is growing so massively, and your insight, your insights team are probably, I'm assuming you're able to see lots of kind of trends and, and things like that in, in charging anyway.

Jade Edwards [00:11:59]:
Yeah, certainly. And so one of the, you know, the big sort of trends that you see at the moment in terms of the pace of rollout is that the hubs, so we define them as six or more rapid or ultra rapid devices in one location. So 50kW plus the hubs, they're growing at one of the kind of fastest rates out of everything that we see. So we've had 130, 36 new hubs so far this year. We also see then specifically those ultra-rapid 150-kilowatt-plus devices are the segment that is growing the fastest out of everything. So, we have about 1,600 of those in so far this year, and they know that the total number of ultra-rapid devices outnumbers rapid devices. So that's the first time that's taken over in the last couple of months, and it's definitely, you know, for that en-route charging. And that's the other great thing about charging.

Jade Edwards [00:13:01]:
There are different use cases for different. Depending on what you're doing. But for that en-route charging, that's certainly what the EV drivers are looking for, and the CPOs are absolutely responding to that and getting ahead of that in a lot of cases to make sure that that's the provision that's going in for people that need to charge en route. So that's a kind of big trend that we've seen developing over the last couple of years.

Liz Allan  [00:13:29]:
So, were there any, was there anything that was unexpected that you know, like a trend that you kind of started going, oh, that's. We were expecting that to happen. Were there any kind of. Or behaviours, even kinds of trends or behaviours that were. That, you know, has taken you by surprise? I'm not saying that you wouldn't be expecting it, but sometimes you kind of, you can see from your, you know, data is king, as I always say, you know, actually from that data that. That kind of blew you away.

Jade Edwards [00:14:01]:
Yeah, I suppose when you look at on-street charging, you know, London, as you can imagine, has the vast majority of the on-street devices that there are at the moment in the country. However, when you actually go and look at the growth rate, you really do see that it's outside of London. Really, it's a lot of the time where the growth rate is highest because you have got all those different local authorities around the country that are really starting to try and put in more on-street provision. So yes, certainly over the last year, whenever we look at that split regionally we go, yep, London has still got huge numbers of on street, but all the others are, you know, or not all the others, but a lot of other areas are really starting to pick that up and starting to try and develop that provision as well. So I think that will now be a kind of continuing trend, and I expect as well. And we did a brilliant piece of work, actually, with Cenex, Field Dynamics, Experian, and various other partners, called Are We Nearly There Yet? So I don't know if you've had a look at that, but it's this brilliant analysis looking at every local authority and what its current provision is versus what the likely need of that local authority is and how far ahead or behind demand it is. So it's a really good sort of granular analysis across the country, and that's the sort of thing that we love getting our data into because our data is one piece of the puzzle. We can talk about the numbers, and we can talk about the utilisation of the charges, but what's really great is when you build that data up with other elements, and we try to do that in partnership as much as we can.

Jade Edwards [00:15:49]:
And our clients do that. You know, they will get our data in and mix it with their own data and other data they've got from other sources to try to build a much richer picture.

Liz Allan  [00:15:58]:
And that's what you need, isn't it, in order to kind of move, move forwards and be able to make decisions, to like you say, pull it, pull it in from different places and different types of data to kind of do this. I mean, not everybody's a data geek, are they? I mean, I do like a good old spreadsheet. As Michele, who works with me, it'd probably go, oh, God, yeah, she does. But, you know, I like it. I'm not, I'm not kind of into, into kind of pivot tables and all that law, but I want to be able to see data. I was talking to my son recently, and I was saying that data needs to be meaningful, doesn't it? Because there's no point in, in kind of creating reports and running data, you know, data reports, if it's not meaningful to people. Because otherwise that's. I've worked, I don't know whether you've had this, but I've worked at places where there's, they've just run reports for reporting sake.

Liz Allan  [00:16:52]:
And it's kind of like, is anybody actually reading that? So that's why it's really important, isn't it?

Jade Edwards [00:16:58]:
Yeah, I think it's asking the right questions, isn't it? So it's saying, what do we really need to understand about this? What are the decisions we need to make, and therefore what data do we need to help demonstrate if that's going to be the right decision or not? If we're going to think about this as our rollout plan, this is where we're going to be putting charges. What data do we need to help us inform that decision and make sure we're making the best decision we can? So, yeah, it's all about building those data layers, but it's the questioning that's really, really important.

Liz Allan  [00:17:29]:
Yeah, exactly. And I was going to ask you, so what data do you feel at the moment? It might be one of the ones you've already talked about. What do you feel is proving most valuable at the moment in shaping how EV charging is moving?

Jade Edwards [00:17:48]:
Yes, I think the two things at the moment that are really helping it are a, that where are all the chargers and actually what, what's the makeup of those, you know, what the power ratings of them, how many are together, who's operating them, all that kind of information about the chargers themselves and where they're cited. Because you've got, you know, a whole industry looking at how do we develop this network that's going to best serve EV drivers for the future. So you need to understand what the trends are that are running through what people are doing and how that's being deployed. So I think that's really key. The other aspect that's really key is understanding how well those chargers are currently being utilised and what that looks like, historically. So how has that been building and how does that change depending on more, more charger deployment within an area, more deployment on a site, seasonality, how long a charger has been in the ground, and what's that ramp-up period? So I think all of that data is really, really important. Looking at not only a rollout but then the next phase, from as you're rolling charges out, is well, how are we actually going to maintain this and actually start getting some return on investment from it? Because you know this is not a charity out there, the public network.

Jade Edwards [00:19:23]:
These are charge point operators. They, you know, they got to do a really good job for EV drivers, but they've got to be able to fly fund that and they've got to be able to fund that ongoing into the future. So we can't just, you know, have it as it doesn't matter whether they're used or not. It's really important. It's no good for a charge point operator. They don't want their stuff sitting there not being used. So that's really important, I think, all that side of it. And then the kind of third area is about as well as that, really kind of definitive data.

Jade Edwards [00:19:55]:
You know, these are, these are the number of sessions that are happening. This is exactly where the charges are. There's also that softer data around the actual EV driver sentiment. What do the EV drivers of today want and experience, and what do they expect? What are they looking for? And then thinking about what the next wave of EV drivers is going to want in an experience. So I think those things together sort of build quite nicely into the key stuff that's kind of most important at the moment in terms of the data out there for the network as it develops.

Liz Allan  [00:20:34]:
It's funny, I was just literally scribbling down while you before you said what you just said, about consumer experience, because, you know, that's kind of something that I'm very, I'm very, very interested in, you know, and the kind of the, the sentiment. What, what are your thoughts about future EV drivers? Because, Because I, I have my own thoughts about kind of what we, what we've had previously. Because I still think, you know, you've got the really, really early adopters. I still think I am. You know, we are kind of like early adopters now. But what are your thoughts about, what do you think, or what are your predictions? I'm not asking you to do a Mystic Meg, you know, get your crystal ball out. But, but from what you're seeing, what do you think the future EV drivers would be expecting from their, their own experience, you know, of charging?

Jade Edwards [00:21:31]:
They just want it to be simple. I think, I think it's people you're get, you're getting into the realms of people that aren't that interested in cars. They just want the next nice car, and they might be really interested in the environment, and really, they're doing it because they're, you know, they're thinking, this is really good for the environment. I'm really happy with my choices here about being more sustainable and helping to provide, you know, a greener future. So I think you'll have people that are really interested in that, but a lot of them will be. I just use my car to get from A to B. I don't really, really have to think about it much outside of that. And so they just want a simple, straightforward experience.

Jade Edwards [00:22:13]:
So I think that's the challenge as you go forward, because they're not as interested in the intricacies in understanding all these differences and being there to sort of push the boundary. They just want to get on with things. So, yeah, that's definitely the challenge, I think, is how we can not consolidate but bring the experience together so that people are, in the vast majority of cases, getting quite a simple experience that they don't have to really think about.

Liz Allan  [00:22:44]:
And that's it, isn't it? That. That is it what you've just hit the nail on the head. It is about making it so that you don't even have to. Have to think about. You don't have to think about it. Sorry, I don't like to talk about wet fuel, although I do, but, you know, we don't think about it. When you just go to a wet fuel station and you whack a nozzle.

Jade Edwards [00:23:04]:
People are just so used to it now. That they just know that, you know.

Liz Allan  [00:23:08]:
Yeah.

Jade Edwards [00:23:08]:
They got a couple of different options when they get there. Am I going to use petrol or diesel, am I going to pay a pump or pay a kiosk? I mean, that's about it in terms of the considerations.

Liz Allan  [00:23:21]:
Yeah, yeah.

Jade Edwards [00:23:22]:
And they still get that wrong. Not forget.

Liz Allan  [00:23:24]:
Oh, well. Oh, there are. There is that.

Jade Edwards [00:23:27]:
There's still a lot of that that, you know, people get wrong. So, yeah, it's just about that simplicity and about things like giving people that confidence to switch things like the legislation. All the announcements have just been made about signage actually being able to signpost EV charging, major A roads and motorways without it having to be attached to a fuel forecourt. You know, it sounds so obvious, and people outside the industry probably assume that you could and why there just aren't any charges there. That's why nobody's signposted them.

Liz Allan  [00:24:07]:
Yeah, yeah.

Jade Edwards [00:24:08]:
So I think that sort of thing is just, you know, it's that great visibility and just gives people that confidence if they're suddenly driving around. And, you know, if you look at the map, wherever you are, you look at that map, you'll pretty much see chargers. So, actually, being able to just see people driving around, oh, there's another EV charging. Oh, there's another EV charging side. You know, that's going to be transformational, I think.

Liz Allan  [00:24:34]:
I agree. And actually, I'll go back to us. What we were talking about before we started recording, which was you went to BV's Charging Away assistant, you in. In Manchester and I hadn't properly looked at the photos and you've got one in the background with you and a Sifka 4 with a BEV totem. And I was just like, oh, my God. You can actually see it's a charging hub. It's got a totem on it.

Liz Allan  [00:25:01]:
But I know there are lots of laws and things like that that were getting in the way and tripping people up before, weren't there, that said if you've got a totem and it's got no room, you can't. You know, there was. There were all sorts of different things that you could or couldn't do to minimise it. But like you're saying, if you know that they're kind of even just making it, giving people the ability to signpost EV charging and keeping it standardised, so you know, you know what it looks like and then. Then people will start going, Oh, yeah, look at that over there. Oh, it is. Oh, so they have. There is charging then, you know that, won't it?

Jade Edwards [00:25:37]:
Yeah, yeah. It's just a conversation piece, isn't it? It will. People are in the car saying to each other, Oh, yeah, look at that. Because it's when you know about charging and you see things and you point it out to people that you're with and they're like, Oh, I didn't realise that was there. Or I didn't know that.

Liz Allan  [00:25:53]:
You know, I didn't know what that was. Yeah.

Jade Edwards [00:25:58]:
So, yeah, I think that that sort of thing is. It's a kind of transformation, and that's what we need for the next set of EV drivers, because it will just give so much more confidence.

Liz Allan  [00:26:07]:
And it's funny when you were saying about the fact that, you know, a lot of future drivers could be. Could potentially be people who are in. Not particularly interested in cars. Sorry, I'll tell you why I'm chuckling in a second. But not interested in cars, but actually would be interested in the environment. My husband and I've had the EV for two years. I'm the one who drives it the most. And he can't give a monkey's about cars.

Liz Allan  [00:26:33]:
It's just not him. He's, you know, I'm. I'm kind of more of the. I love. I do love my cars, you know. My brother, I had two. Two brothers, and they were so much older. Older than me, so when they used to turn up, and my brother, I remember one of my brothers, he had an MGB GT, a bright yellow one.

Liz Allan  [00:26:52]:
We called it the Little Yellow Chicken, you know, and stuff like that, that was what I grew up with. And they'd come around and see my dad and. And we'd all go out for a ride in their new car. So that was. That was my side of things. Whereas Rich, my husband, just could not give a monkey's. As long as it goes, like you're saying, from A to B, and it's, you know, it's not giving off any emissions. He's a professor of climate science, so, you know, he doesn't want to be doing that anyway.

Liz Allan  [00:27:18]:
But what I was also going to say is that one good thing about EVs is that you can't put the wrong fuel type in them, can you? You know, you can't. It's not a petrol or a diesel choice. It's not like highly, you know, like four plus, plus electricity or anything like that. You know, it's got a little gold, gold leaf in it. There's none of that. So that's got to be a Brucey bonus. As well, hasn't it really? Yeah, but can you imagine there'll be so many fewer cars that actually, because I don't know what the percentage is. I'm sure the AA will be able to tell us.

Jade Edwards [00:27:56]:
But it's really, really small, isn't it? And it's been reducing consistently in terms of the number of breakdowns that are due to running out of charge. It's really small.

Liz Allan  [00:28:07]:
Yeah, but like I say, you're gonna also have that data on the people who are putting diesel in the petrol car or vice versa. You know, even though the nozzles. The nozzles are supposed to actually stop you from doing that, but they really don't, do they?

Jade Edwards [00:28:23]:
I remember listening to one of the podcasts. I think it's Kirsty from the AA, and she was saying that there's still a cert. They still run the service of people having to go and swap the fuel over and sort that out. That's still a service they're happy they're having to run at the moment. So, you know, it's been. And it's. That's never going away until there are no.

Liz Allan  [00:28:47]:
No more wet fuel because there will always be things out there that do it. But like I say, you move to electric, you're not going to put the wrong fuel type. You might not work out what a 7 or 11, a 22, or a 50 or 150 kilowatt charger might look like to start off with. But at least, at least you might get that a little bit kind of confused. But other than that, you know, it should be, it should be okay, really, shouldn't it?

Jade Edwards [00:29:16]:
Yeah, I think that's the importance of education, and that's the piece that we try to help with. We've got all the guides as well as, you know, everything that we're supporting in the media with. But it's about that education and helping people to understand, actually, what these different use cases are. How does the all come together? What are your choices? What are you looking for? Yeah, so it's all kind of intertwined, I think.

Liz Allan  [00:29:43]:
Yeah. Like you said about kind of on the utilisation piece, the charging networks do need to know, don't they, about their, you know, so what, what they've obviously built their KPIs on, on, you know, what their expected utilisation is. But I suppose what you can give is the right. This is what was expected. But we're kind of here or they're. They're compared to these guys and plus or minus, because there could be over, you know, higher utilisation or lower. But they, they need to know all this stuff, don't they, really?

Jade Edwards [00:30:20]:
Yeah, yeah. It's becoming increasingly important as the networks expand, resulting in more assets that need to be managed and understood. This includes identifying which assets are performing well and which aren't, and determining what can be done to improve their performance. So it's that constant tracking and understanding what's going on, and how that influences future investment. So, you know, for example, Gridserve down in Exeter went from 12 devices to 36 because they had, they could see from the data how that utilisation was tracking and when it was actually reaching a point that made it, that made that next decision to actually we need to increase and put another 12 in and then another 12. And it's kind of that, that forward planning, but then executing as, as your growth goes along. So yeah, so we're trying to help people as they build all that out and, and really sort of work, work on those models for how they expand their own networks and where they choose to do that and then think about that wider pitch because they've got all their own data. But it's that wider picture of actually what else could we be doing, and what are other people doing, and what does the market look like overall, and how do we perform against that?

Liz Allan  [00:31:42]:
No, that's right. That's really good. And just being able to, for us, provide enough insights to organisations like Gridserve so that they can look at those. You know, you've got a couple of things, haven't you here? You've got the, the number of assets that you need to put in the ground, like you say, to kind of keep up with the, the footfall, but you don't want to be putting them in too early, you know, but you also don't want queues as well because you don't want anybody going, oh, look at those, look at exit services. It's, look at the queues there and, and all that. Because again, that's just the misinformation and like jungle drums getting out there. So, you know, it's, it's providing that level of, of information to people, isn't it?

Jade Edwards [00:32:32]:
Yeah. And that's what's such a hard balance for the CPOs now: how do they manage that between peak and off-peak times? And what can they do to drive more utilisation at times when it's quieter versus when there are busier times? How do they then manage that? So, yeah, there's an Awful lot going on there, and it's only going to get more complex, I think, and the stakes kind of get higher on that as well.

Liz Allan  [00:33:02]:
So what would you like to see improve? What would you like to see improving in how the industry is using insights and data compared to what's been, you know, because I'm sure you're getting asked to bring, you know, provide all sorts of information for people. But what, what would you like to see, you know, kind of change or organisations start asking for?

Jade Edwards [00:33:29]:
I think it's because it's quiet, it's, you know, a new industry. So I think it's starting, and the kind of open data piece is starting to help fuel that, but starting to understand more about competitive positioning and how competitive data can be used to help develop a better service all around. So I think that's quite important, and I think further forward as well. At the moment, CPOs are very, very focused on their own reliability and thinking purely about their own reliability, I think, understanding actually how you sit in a marketplace on that and actually where are people doing it particularly well? What can you learn from that? What have you done really well that you can then roll out and push forward with? So I think there's that piece as well. And then I think further into the future, there's also going to be some really interesting stuff around pricing when all the prices start to get more flexible and people are tweaking their prices to try and help drive utilisation at different times of day to different locations and with different offers. So there's a little bit that goes on now, but I think in the future that will bring be a more interesting kind of marketplace on that, and it'll be really interesting to see how that impacts EV drivers when, you know, they're not making a decision, they've gone from making a decision on. Well, that's probably my only option of where I could go and charge to.

Jade Edwards [00:35:09]:
Actually. I've got several options. What am I going to choose, and what am I basing that decision on? And obviously, pricing will impact that. Reliability will impact the availability of whether there's enough capacity at different sites. The overall brand experience and people's trust in certain brands lead them to prefer them over others. All those things together will really kind of come to play. But I think that's a little bit further down the line. We're kind of on that journey, I think so.

Liz Allan  [00:35:42]:
And I know you've got a, you've got a head head in a few minutes, I'm Going to ask you two more questions. First one is if you could offer one piece of advice when it comes to insight-led decision making, what would that be?

Jade Edwards [00:36:00]:
Ask the right questions, I think, really think through what questions you need to ask of the data to help you make a better decision? And then find the data that will help you answer those questions.

Liz Allan  [00:36:15]:
And final, final little question. This is about your own driving experiences. So what if you could sum up what your own driving experiences as an EV driver were, you know, what your overall experience has been and whether you've had any favourite places that you've charged at or good experiences or little pet peeves. What would that be in a little short sound bite?

Jade Edwards [00:36:45]:
I think the main thing is you, when you do get to a charger, being able to pay easily. I think that's so important. So whether that's being able to use contactless or being able to access through roaming, I think those two things are kind of, you know, that's what you need. You don't. You want to reduce the number of apps. You might have apps for some favourites, but you want to reduce those, really. So you just want to be able to either get your card out, either your contactless card or whether it's a zap map card, charge card, or whether it's using the app to pay, but you just want to be able to do either a rope payment via roaming or contactless and not be faffing about.

Liz Allan  [00:37:32]:
I like that. I was gonna say.

Jade Edwards [00:37:36]:
Yeah, I can't be faffing about. I know I'm always on the clock.

Liz Allan  [00:37:42]:
Well, you've got two small children, hence the reason why we've got to finish now, because you've got two small children to go and get. So Jade, look, on that note, I'm gonna say it's been really, you know, we're gonna say, don't you. It's been really insightful. I couldn't, I couldn't not. I'm so sorry. It has, it's been, it's been really, really interesting, and I could probably sit and talk to you more about this. So much more, especially around customer experience and stuff like that. But I'm gonna say thank you because I'll bring you back another time.

Liz Allan  [00:38:19]:
We can carry on chatting about that when we actually get time to.

Jade Edwards [00:38:24]:
Talk to each other at an event next time rather than just waving and running past.

Liz Allan  [00:38:28]:
Exactly.  I'm hoping we will be able to because that'd be fantastic. But listen, you know, just thank you ever so much for your time. Two little children to go and get. So, so thank you. And to everybody, I'm just gonna say I will share, you know, kind of Jade's details in the show, notes and everything, and just thank you for, for everything that you've said today, Jade. It's been brilliant. Everybody else, please, like, subscribe, share all of the wonderful stuff.

Liz Allan  [00:38:59]:
Check out our podcast page on LinkedIn and just share it with people. And to finalise it, just want to say thanks for washing. Washing. Well, if you've been washing, then that'd be even better. But thank you for watching and listening. See, we don't cut any of this, but thank you for watching and listening. And I'll see you next time. Thanks, Jade.

Liz Allan  [00:39:19]:
Bye. Bye.