Episode 159: Liz Allan and Tracy Kearns - Driving Wales’s Net Zero Future

Episode 159: Liz Allan and Tracy Kearns -  Driving Wales's Net Zero Future. 

Liz Allan speaks to Tracy Kearns, the Head of EV Charging Infrastructure for the Welsh Government. They discuss Tracy's diverse career journey, her current role in promoting electric vehicle infrastructure, and the importance of community engagement and innovation in the EV sector. Tracy shares insights from her involvement with the EV Rally Cymru, from gap-filling on strategic routes to community moments with school pupils discovering EVs for the first time, and why events like these help demystify electric mobility for the public and decision-makers alike.

Tracy Kearns Bio:
Tracy Kearns brings a wealth of experience from across various sectors, having worked in finance, HR, consultancy, and major transport projects before stepping into the EV world. Her varied career has given her a unique perspective on how to connect policy with practical delivery and how to bring different stakeholders together to make change happen. Passionate about inclusion and innovation, she champions projects that not only accelerate the transition to electric mobility but also ensure communities are actively involved and benefit along the way.   Recognised as part of the GREENFLEET 100, Tracy is known for her collaborative style and genuine enthusiasm for shaping a fairer, cleaner transport future. 

Quote of the Episode:
“My main job is turning policy into delivery, working with Transport for Wales and councils so the right charging gets built, and it's accessible for everyone.” 

Tracy Kearns Links:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracyjkearns

Transcript

Liz Allan [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Electric Evolution with Liz Allan. This podcast explores the transition to Net zero and the systems driving real change in how we move live and power our world. Every week I sit down with the people leading that change, those offering insight, innovation and impact in many ways people don't fully see until they hear their stories. If you're ready for real conversations that inspire action and drive change, please like this video, subscribe to the channel and join us on this journey. Let's cut through the noise and build a better future together. 

So, on today's episode, I have with me Tracy Kearns. She is the Head of EV Charging Infrastructure for the Welsh Government. And we have been chatting so much on and off for the past few months, haven't we, Tracy? Thank you for joining me.

Tracy Kearns [00:00:48]:
Thanks for having me on, and thank you for rolling out that red carpet at the beginning. That made my day.

Liz Allan [00:00:54]:
Yes. For those of you who know the platform that we use, that's kind of what it says when you. When you log in. It says rolling out the red carpet. And we did it specifically for Tracy today. Well, no, it does it for everybody.

Liz Allan [00:01:09]:
So, I just want to provide a little context for how we. How we met. And it was. It was one of those things, wasn't it? We are both originally from up north. And I kind of. I connected with you probably back in February, didn't I? And we were just messaging each other on LinkedIn, and you asked me where. Where I was from and we'd not spoken then, had we? Because I was talking. I asked you if you wanted to come on the podcast then.

Liz Allan [00:01:38]:
And then I found out you were northern as well. So it was kind of like, oh, because I can't remember what you said. There was something that you said, my pronunciation, it was nice to hear it, and it just. It just tickled me, as my mother would have said.

Tracy Kearns [00:01:50]:
Yeah, I can't remember what it was, but I remember listening to the first podcast and going, Oh, my God, she said northern.

Liz Allan [00:01:58]:
But that's hilarious because I've lived down south for longer than I've lived up north now, which. But, yeah, you never. You just don't lose your accent. So you are originally from Sheffield, aren't you?

Tracy Kearns [00:02:07]:
Correct. Yep.

Liz Allan [00:02:08]:
And you've lived in Wales for how long now?

Tracy Kearns [00:02:12]:
Oh, 27 and a half years. And I do speak. I do speak a bit of Welsh. And when my daughter was little, she said, Oh, you're so clever, Mummy. You speak four languages. And I was like, do I? And she said, Yeah, you speak English, because that's what all small children call English. And you speak Welsh, French, and Yorkshire.

Tracy Kearns [00:02:37]:
So she definitely thought it was a separate language.

Liz Allan [00:02:40]:
Well, exactly. I mean, you know, that's the difference. When I came. When I moved down here, mine was 1995. So you moved down two years before me. And having my son from, you know, I had him in 2005, but when he was old enough to send to kind of work out, that I said bath rather than Bath, or laugh rather than laugh, you know, or. And then there's the whole thing. And if you.

Liz Allan [00:03:03]:
If you're from up north. Sorry, if you're listening, you'll get this. But if you're from down south, you'd be like, what? The whole thing between dinner and tea and lunch and dinner, that's just a whole different conversation. When you've got small children, it really is.

Tracy Kearns [00:03:17]:
Bread, cakes, buns, cobs, rolls, that's.

Liz Allan [00:03:20]:
And barm cakes. I mean, what's all that about, you know? So, anyway, for all of you watching and listening, it's going to be an interesting conversation because we've talked so much on and off since then. Since we first started talking anyway, haven't we? And it's just. It's brilliant. I want to start off by looking at. And you giving us a little bit of your background, because it's been very varied, hasn't it? Hasn't it? And, you know, I've done quite a lot of stuff, but so have you. So talk a little bit about what you've done and how you got to be Head of EV Charging for Welsh government when you're from Yorkshire.

Tracy Kearns [00:03:59]:
Okay. So I started off doing an accounting and finance degree, and I got a placement at Boots, which I was really excited about. And I actually managed to convince them it'd be a good idea to sponsor me to go back in my final year. They've not done that before, but it meant that I ended up not having a massive overdraft, so that was cool. So I worked there. Then I went to an engineer. Oh, actually, when I was at Boots, I nearly took a job in marketing. I was offered a job in marketing because I've always found that really interesting.

Tracy Kearns [00:04:35]:
But I was so close to qualifying as an accountant, I thought it was a really stupid thing to do. Not, not, you know, not. Not very sensible. So I did the sensible thing, not the interesting thing. Then I worked for an engineering firm, and then I was in the kind of mad position that people probably wouldn't believe nowadays, but I had seven interviews in two days. Oh my God. Oh no. It was amazing.

Tracy Kearns [00:05:01]:
It was like there was an insurance firm, there was a. I think one was Revlon, one was Mars, and one was an insurance company that no longer exists. I can't remember who the others were with. And Hitachi and I took the job with Hitachi, and I loved it because it was a sales organisation. I was working with sales and marketing guys and really sort of in the middle of things, and it was so long ago that just before I went on maternity leave, my. One of my divisions was a sort of busy system, so it was computers and stuff. And the guy went, and it wasn't the one that was that interesting. And the guy went Oh, look at this.

Tracy Kearns [00:05:39]:
We've got this wonderful new thing on my laptop, look at it. It's called Windows, and it's going to change the world.

Liz Allan [00:05:45]:
Well, it kind of did.

Tracy Kearnss [00:05:47]:
I was working in Windows and then took a brief career break when I had children. I worked for the family business and then, subsequently, moved down to Wales before having my youngest daughter. But then I was, I moved to Cardiff and did an MBA, which was quite entertaining because I was getting divorced, I had three small children, and there was one famous night when I finished a piece of coursework at 7 am and went in at 9 am and turned it in. So it was quite hard work. But yeah, so I did my MBA, came out, you know, I was qualified, qualified really early. Came out thinking this is it, you know, everybody's going to want me. And I was told I could get a job as an accounts assistant. So I was like No, I don't think so. I'm a qualified management accountant.

Tracy Kearns [00:06:48]:
And so I took a job at a solicitor's practice because the family business was a solicitor's practice. Trying to think what I was as a practice manager. So I did pick up quite a bit of hr, looked after the staff, did you know, everything from organising IT people and marketing people. So the whole kit and kaboodle. And then I went for a job because it was quite away from home, and the kids were little, and you get that phone call saying so and so has been knocked over in the playground, and you've got a four-minute drive, and it feels like a three-hour one. So I got a job close to home at a hotel, went for a finance job, but got an HR job because I picked that there and then serendipitously was sitting down at a wedding reception talking to somebody who said What do you do? And I said oh, I You know, worked with Karen, she got the finance job, I got the HR one. And he said, Oh, we need somebody to do hr. And so before I could even time, I was a brilliant manager and accountant.

Tracy Kearns [00:07:51]:
I went, okay, let's talk. So that led to nine incredibly fun years in a cost and project management consultancy doing all sorts of HR client audits for big construction contracts. I was the worst ISO9001 internal auditor, which meant I could go and visit every little officer. So, yeah, so my. So, you know, lots and lots of random stuff in my background and then when I didn't think I could really do much more there, I joined a startup which stopped fairly shortly after. And again, just by pure luck, one of my former colleagues was chatting to somebody, and they said, Oh, I didn't know Tracey wasn't working at present. So I was interviewed by the Welsh government because this person said, You just what we need. Not the Welsh government, Transport for Wales.

Tracy Kearns [00:08:53]:
I'm lying about where I went. And that was. Yeah, that was kind of weird. So again, it was, you know, it was 2016 and they've now got thousands and thousands and thousands of staff. And when I went there, I was staff member number three.

Liz Allan [00:09:11]:
Wow. Gosh.

Tracy Kearns [00:09:13]:
We'd got a lot of people on to comment from the Welsh government, we'd got a few consultants, and we were procuring the next rail contract, which has been running since 2018. So transport for Wales is really interesting because I've seen it grow from the point where, you know, you would open the door and let people in in the morning, etc, etc, to just like a massive, massive organisation. And interestingly, when I went in, the first thing I was doing was finance before the finance team was set up. So that was quite ironic when people told me I couldn't do that anymore. So that was really cool. And then last year, there were a number of opportunities that came up for us to do comments with the Welsh government, and one of those was in EV charging, and it just sounded really interesting. So I knew the guy who was heading that up, a guy called Robin Beckman, who's since retired, and I really respected him. And just when I was offered the opportunity, I was just so excited.

Tracy Kearns [00:10:19]:
So it's been, I've been there 13 months now, got 11 left because it's two years at common and I've just, yeah, just absolutely love it, I was going to say.

Liz Allan [00:10:31]:
So it sounds like from when you started working for Transport for Wales that, you know, kind of you, you've been working in different infrastructure projects, haven't you? Like you said about the whale, you know, sorry, not whale. The rail. The rail project. And also, you know, kind of moving into EV charging. How. How familiar did that feel from kind of like an infrastructure point of view?

Tracy Kearns [00:11:00]:
Oh, that's an interesting question. So I, because I was doing finance and helping out with anything else that needed doing as well to begin with, I wasn't working on the infrastructure projects, but. But obviously, seeing all of the paperwork that comes through when it was just me looking at it for finance, you sort of got a really good feel for what the guys were doing. Then I, I sort of moved into business partner finance role briefly and then had an opportunity to move into the bus team because they got a very specific project. So, you know, it's. I think it's just interesting because it's changed. So I haven't. I can't actually say I'd worked on big infrastructure projects there, just different business support projects, really.

Liz Allan [00:11:50]:
Right, yeah, yeah. Okay. So what does your job look like? What it. What is kind of like a day? A day in the life of, you know, the head of EV infrastructure in.

Tracy Cairns [00:12:04]:
Wales looks like it's probably less glamorous than you would think. So it's everything. I mean, my main, I suppose, the main part of my job is making sure that we're translating policy into delivery. So I'm a sponsor for Transport for Wales. I've got a brilliant colleague over there, Tony Clayton, who's just awesome, who heads that team up. They, for the last few years, have assessed grant applications on our behalf. They work with local authorities and try to advise them. So acting as a centre of excellence, they also offer training.

Tracy Kearns [00:12:46]:
They work with the likes of CENEX. So we've actually run the same CENEX training that they ran in England, but we've welshified it a bit and offered that to all 22 local authorities. So that was something really useful this year. So, yeah, act response to them, deal with everybody from members of the public, writing with correspondence for ministers, to speaking to ChargePoint operators, attending events, which is obviously where I get to meet lots of useful people like EVA or Charge uk or just people from other parts of the UK who've had different experiences of working with charge point operators or trying to get stuff in the ground and finding out what's worked, what hasn't worked and trying to disseminate that knowledge through Wales, really. So, yeah, it's. I mean it's pretty varied. Don't get two days the same, which is good.

Liz Allan [00:13:48]:
I was going to say, actually, Transport for Wales took ChargeSafe training fairly soon, didn't they? So I know, Tony, kind of must have recognised that that was really important. So Kate Tyrrell, who runs, who runs Charge Safe and kind of all of the, all of the things that she does and it felt like, you know, he, that was being taken really seriously early on, wasn't it?

Tracy Kearns [00:14:18]:
Yeah. So earlier this year, they did their Charge Safe re-accreditation training with Kate, and I joined them for that day. And that was really interesting. But Tony's been instrumental in the advisory stuff around the first PAS 1899 issue, and they're going through a sort of revision now. So he's involved with that as well. So that's something that's really, really important to him. And when the Welsh government launched a charging infrastructure framework last year, PAS 1899 was absolutely at the centre of that. And that.

Liz Allan [00:14:57]:
And that makes sense, really, doesn't it? You know, because actually, why would you not build it around that kind of inclusion and accessibility piece anyway? So that's really, really, really important.

Tracy Kearns [00:15:09]:
Yeah. And I, I find it really interesting when you speak to either a charge point operator who's been working with designers to come up with some really cool designs for how that's going to work with their charging infrastructure. But I was also looking at some photographs from Newport City Council, and they'd got a multi-story car park where they had allocated four ordinary parking bays and turned it into a fully accessible parking bay. So it means that you can access it from the rear, the sides, park it forwards, park it backwards, do whatever you want. And that was one of the things. I can't remember exactly what the number is, but Tony said that there are about 23 different variations of how you can park a car and get in and out of it from a PAS 1899 perspective. So it's really interesting to see when people come up with those creative ideas. It's really cool.

Liz Allan [00:16:10]:
I've seen a lot of innovation happening through this sector, and it's been really, really good to see and really interesting. And I was just thinking about our conversation before we started recording because. So you got involved with the Greenfleet EV Rally last year, didn't you, over in Wales. And this year they're coming, and you're going to be involved again. But we, we would. So we could talk about the rally and how you got involved. But the thing that I was thinking of was about, you know, where people have this way of thinking about EVs, and they're gonna, you know, once it's going to take people's jobs and all this kind of stuff. But.

Liz Allan [00:16:51]:
And the whole point of the rally is to kind of recognise that EVs are a good thing and, you know, it's about reducing pollution, but it. But also looking at the other side of the jobs that it's actually going to create across multiple areas, isn't it?

Tracy Kearns [00:17:10]:
Yeah. The first week of my new job coincided with the UK EV rally passing through Hay on Wye, which is why I was there.

Liz Allan [00:17:20]:
I just didn't see you.

Tracy Kearns [00:17:22]:
Didn't see you there. So I pitched up and met Ursula and spoke to Sam Clarke on his bike. And I went. And I went, oh, on an electric motorbike. And he went, yeah, they've been around for 20 years. So I was like, oh, God, I've got a lot to learn. And I said, well, you know, are they what they like compared to a big, powerful motorbike? Because it looks like one.

Tracy Kearns [00:17:46]:
I mean, I must. He must have thought I was a right thicko. And he went, yeah, it'll do nought to 60 in about two seconds. Like, oh, my God. And then so he. He poodled off on the rally. And then Ursula from Greenfleet introduced me to Lorna McAtear, who, you know, let's face it, is everybody's EV industry girl crush. She's amazing.

Liz Allan [00:18:07]:
She is fantastic, the woman.

Tracy Kearns [00:18:09]:
Yeah. And just so. She was just so generous with her time. It was amazing. So they were charging up something that looked like an old Land Rover. Yeah, yeah, I think so, yeah.

Liz Allan [00:18:26]:
Oh, my God. I actually went in that, and my mind's just gone blank about what it is. And they'll probably be. Lorna will be listening, or someone will be going. I was actually in it, but I didn't drive it. So. Yes.

Tracy Kearns [00:18:37]:
So I was saying, oh, gosh, you.

Liz Allan [00:18:38]:
It's called the Spartan. Thank God. It came back to me.

Tracy Kearns [00:18:45]:
Thank you. Well done. And I was. And I was just going, oh, God, they're horrible to drive. And I used to drive it to a motel, and I needed a chiropractor. Get me shoulders reset, and you still have a drive in it. And I said, 'Are you serious?' And she went, yes. Literally drove it around the car park, quite a big car park.

Tracy Kearns [00:19:04]:
And honestly, the grin on my face was just mad. And I was driving back on this beautiful sunny day through Wales, just through the hills and everything, just going, this is my new job. I can't actually believe it. It was such good fun. And then. Yeah, and then, you know, cut to November. We had the first EV rally. Coincided with Climate Action Wales Week in Wales.

Tracy Kearns [00:19:30]:
So that's the more consumer side of it. And the purpose of the Greenfleet EV rally was to initially prove what EVs can do and to prove that they can get around Wales. And one of the things that Transport for Wales has done on behalf of the Welsh government is plug the gaps in the strategic road network. So there were commercial spots here, there and everywhere. And then we just looked and said, well, you know, what bits are missing? So they did that. And one of them, we stopped at the rally last year, which is held at Craig y Nos Country Park. So it's. It's one of Kevin Booker's babies.

Tracy Kearns [00:20:09]:
It's phenomenal. It's absolutely awesome. It's just a fantastic site. So, yeah, so we, you know, we. We poodled off. I was in a team with Kevin and his. His boss, Simone, and I had two Konas, and we went on a wiggly route from Cardiff up through Powis Castle and across to Bangor Carnarvon, actually. And we didn't have to charge at once.

Liz Allan [00:20:37]:
If you're in with Kevin, actually. Yeah, Kevin's the most efficient driver I've ever known in my life. But that's what he got, his Guinness. Guinness World Record.

Tracy Kearns [00:20:46]:
We only. We only came third in last year's Green Fleet Rally, so I think he was putting. Possibly a bit miffed, but I think that was because the cone is just too efficient. So you can't. You. It's really difficult to go over and above something that's amazing. Anyway, so, yeah, it was, it was, you know, it's quite. It was a really good learning experience because I had.

Tracy Kearns [00:21:09]:
The second day. I was in the car with Kev all day and just asking him anything and everything and. And, you know, you just get to learn so lot. And we. We had to stop in a little town in North Wales called Bethesda, and there's a really awesome community organisation called Partneriaeth Ogwen. They had just taken delivery of a car club car from Tridani, and the Welsh government is also sponsoring to see if we can roll out car clubs effectively in rural Wales. And when we got there, it was. It was mad.

Tracy Kearns [00:21:48]:
The local school, we'd arranged to be there, and it was just full of. I think there must have been some girls there, but basically, teenage boys in front of this Megan, in the back of a Megan, about six of them sitting in the boat with a Megan. But they. They had a brilliant morning because they got to hear initially from Chris and Julie Ramsey about their pole-to-pole expedition, and then they got to hear from Kevin Booker about his world records. So, yeah, in, in the course of half an hour they got to meet three people who between them have got about six Guinness World Records. It was quite amazing. And that was, that was really nice. And Chris and Julie said it was one of their highlights as well.

Tracy Kearns [00:22:29]:
But it, you know, you, it's so difficult to plan things for the event because everybody's going at their own pace. So to get some kind of public engagement was. It was just brilliant. It was amazing. And then we stopped at the National Library, and everybody was chatting and looking at the cars there as well. So, yeah, it was, it was really cool. And this year it's in October, and instead of the Welsh government sponsoring it this year, Transport for Wales is actually the headline sponsor. So we're busy working with Green Fleet and planning another exciting route that'll hopefully showcase a bit of Wales, and get some kind of engagement on the route as well.

Tracy Kearns [00:23:10]:
So, yeah, really looking forward to that.

Liz Allan [00:23:12]:
Oh, and I mean, Wales was just going for the, you know, talking to the bit, talking about the bit that you were saying with regards to coming through Hay on Wye. The Welsh countryside we went through just on that final day of the rally last year was just amazing, you know, and I'll just quickly digress, Michelle Breffit and I were from Women Drive Electric. We were both in the car then, and there was a little diversion. We had to take over this humpty back bridge with kind of like wooden slats on it. And we were in a Tesla Model Y. And it was just. I was like, oh, my God, you couldn't write this, you know, it was so tiny. And then you had to pay a pound on the other side.

Liz Allan [00:24:00]:
It was a tiny, tiny bridge, but you had to pay a pound at the other side. And I kept trying, I can't get it, I can't get it. And then we thought we'd got everything, and then we had. Then it goes, Do you want a receipt? Oh, my God, no, I don't want a receipt. But I had to press the button and lean out. It was just hilarious. Beautiful, beautiful journey.

Tracy Kearns [00:24:18]:
Oh, it was the day one, we had it. There was a section of road that was closed, and, you know, there's that phrase, if in doubt, read the instructions. Anybody who put their sat nav on ended up on the block road. And so the first checkpoint was a bit of a pain in the neck, so we had to. Yeah, that, that caused a few Diversions, but it's just good fun. And we were so lucky last year because I was expecting it to be, you know, cold, dark and miserable, and we just had blue skies and sunshine, and it was. Oh, you. You couldn't have asked for better conditions.

Tracy Kearns [00:24:56]:
It was amazing.

Liz Allan [00:24:57]:
And that. And that makes such a massive, massive difference. But what I was going to do. What I was going to do was go. Go back to our. What. What we just kind of slipped in a little bit earlier, which was this whole moving to EVs is going to cost people jobs. Because I think that that in itself is a.

Liz Allan [00:25:15]:
Is a com. That is a conversation in itself, isn't it? You and I've talked about this before anyway, and if we kind of segue slightly to what you've done, you know, in your, in your background. And also, actually, do you know what? Because I've done a load of moves. Moves and, you know, done various different things. Actually, the skills side of things is really important because there are transferable skills in this sector and coming from various other sectors, aren't there?

Tracy Kearns [00:25:43]:
Yeah, well, one of the, one of the things that's really struck me when I've been listening to your podcast is the kind of backgrounds that people have come from to land an EV. Because if you think about it, 20 years ago, people weren't working in EV. You know, I joked earlier about Windows not existing. But yeah, you know you'd, if you'd said to me 20 years ago, you'll be looking at putting boxes in the ground that all fuel cars from an electricity supply, they're going, all right, okay, yeah, great. Smashing. A bit like Windows. So, you know, just a few that you've had on recently. You had Mark Potter on, who's from an aviation background.

Tracy Kearns [00:26:29]:
You've had Dev Channer, whose energy background, which is linked anyway, Suki Tug has got that air quality background. And then when I look at just the local authorities, when Transport for Wales, or, I mean, they deal with them on a more regular basis than I do, but we've got people in energy teams or climate change teams or roads teams, highways teams or transport teams, you know, it's not always the transport team. And if you think about the main driver for that switch to electrification, that main driver is climate change. So it's not actually a transport problem, but transport is the solution because in Wales we've got. I think it's 70%. I know. I don't think 72% of road transport emissions come from cars, light goods vehicles, and trucks.

Liz Allan [00:27:33]:
Good God.

Tracy Kearns [00:27:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I Transport was the third biggest emitter, now that we've worked so hard to get power stations not running off fossil fuels. It's probably the second biggest emitter of carbon dioxide. So it's got a massive, massive role to play. And if you look at things like the Climate Change Commission's report, they're saying, you know, what can consumers do? What, what is the biggest thing we can do? And it's moving to electric vehicles, and it's looking at alternative ways to heat our homes, like heat pumps or solar panels. You know, it's, it's all those kind of things. So they're, they are things that people will be doing as a matter of course over the next few years.

Tracy Kearns [00:28:20]:
And it's, it's a massive change. But it was a massive change when people had to start wearing seat belts, and some of them didn't like it, or when a drink driving law was introduced, and some people didn't like it. Or, you know, petrol cars have been running for goodness knows how long and all of a sudden there was diesel to contend with. And. Well, what, what's that about then? So, you know, there's a, there's a natural evolution of things anyway, and this is just part of that evolution.

Liz Allan [00:28:51]:
And if you think about it, going right back to old Henry Ford's days in the 19th century, in fact, before this, I suppose, kind of, because my improvement background we're, you know, we look at. Henry Ford was kind of like the first individual to put together a proper production line for cars. Because before it used to, or it was, it was horse and cart, darling. Or, you know, kind of it was. If you were, if there were cars being produced, they were, they were sort of just produced like one at a time. As in, you know, it would be a, it was a cottage industry, and it would become very, it was very small. But then look at what happened. And that was change, wasn't it? That was a massive change going, you know, but even if you.

Tracy Kearns [00:29:37]:
You know, we're both from up north, if you think about before we were born, the north and other parts, you know, the Midlands, all that industrial heartland of Britain, it was just smog city. And we've got rid of that smog, and we've sandblasted buildings, and they look gorgeous again, but flipping out, you know, progress is progress. You, you can hold on in nostalgic fashion as much as you want, but do you really want to live in some slum house and have horse and carts outside where there's so much Horse poo in the road, it's nobody's business, and horses just die and they just leave them there to rot, you know. No, you don't want to go back to that.

Liz Allan [00:30:18]:
So progress it is progress and innovation. And actually my, my mum, bless her, when she was around, we. I moved down, like I said, in '95, and mum and dad came down around '97, one time, and I remember my mum saying, There aren't many chimneys around here, are there? That's a good thing, Mum, you know what I mean? Because it wasn't, you know, I started. My first job was actually working as a, as a clerk or a clerk or whatever you wanted to call them in, in a, in a factory because it was kind of woolen. We were in the woollen industry, you know, in Halifax was kind of part of the woollen industry and a lot of that, as you know. In fact, I'd say probably all of it's gone now. In fact, where I. My first ever job is now at Tesco's in Halifax.

Liz Allan [00:31:10]:
So, you know, things, things change, things move on and jobs change. You know, I said to you earlier, didn't I? Can you imagine? You know, like we said, you said 20 years ago, 20 years ago, would you have actually thought about there being social media managers and things like that? It's just kind of what social, what. You know, so things, things do move on. So it's kind of looking at how these transferable skills, how you can take those, these transferable skills into, into from other sectors, into all of the sectors that are involved in EVs or renewables or decarbonization. I mean, what do you kind of think about sort of the. If we. I'm going to hone in for a second because we, you and I, talked about this before, and there's something that Belinda Guy from Fuuse has just shared this morning, hasn't there, about the kind of women in automotive specifically? And I thought that that was quite, quite interesting, wasn't it?

Tracy Kearns [00:32:14]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:32:14]:
We probably need to give a bit of context, though. Do you want to? Do you want to give a little bit, or shall I give a little bit of context?

Tracy Kearns [00:32:20]:
No, it was Belinda saying that, you know, somebody had made a comment that women don't go into automotive because they don't want to get their hands dirty, which is hilarious. Yeah, I mean, some women like getting their hands really dirty, but others don't. And some men don't either. You know, my dad,a  complete sales rep, pen pusher, never got his hands dirty in his Life and quite liked it that way. So, you know, it's just a ridiculous generalisation, isn't it? It's insane. But I remember when I was at school a long time ago because I did maths, physics, chemistry, A-level, and I fancy doing accountancy. Somebody sort of said, Oh well, you could go into science and engineering. And I was like, Oh, thank you.

Tracy Kearns [00:33:10]:
Did they explain what it was? No, they didn't. If I were looking, you know, if I could hop back then to being 18, I think I'd have rather done civil engineering or quantity surveying than I did accountancy. But you know, you just didn't know what they were. And I think there is a real, there's a real need for people to, especially young people to understand what an absolutely massive range of careers are out there. And when I say careers, they can be jobs; they don't have to be careers. You can do something for five years, 10 years and then switch. You know, the number of people who have multiple career changes nowadays is far higher than the number of people, probably doctors, dentists or lawyers, who do the same thing all their lives. So you know, people have to adapt.

Tracy Kearns [00:34:01]:
I've got a friend whose partner used to be a coal miner back in the day, and the coal mine shut, and then he became an airline pilot. Well, that's.

Liz Allan [00:34:13]:
I know, oh my God, that's a bit different.

Tracy Kearns [00:34:17]:
I know, it's a real chalk and cheese tale. But you know, people do, they just, they just adapt, or you just get tired of doing what they're doing. And it's, and it's everything, it's, it's really practical, hands-on skills that.

Tracy Kearns [00:34:34]:
Years ago, it would have been apprenticeships, then apprenticeships fell out of fashion, then apprenticeships came back. But there are really practical things about doing the installs of the charging infrastructure or maintaining the vehicles. And that's for girls or boys. That's not quite as greasy as it used to be with a fossil-fueled car, is it? You know, you're not getting the same.

Liz Allan [00:35:07]:
You know, they're still, they still have brake fluid and stuff like that. But it's really not kind of that, that kind of in sector anymore, is it? And also thinking about the job for life, you know, kind of inverted commas, like you just said. It's not really from my dad's day, you know, it was like, oh, you've got, you stay in the same job for however many years and actually, you know, people don't do that anymore. They go and move around because you want to get those different experiences, don't you?

Tracy Kearns. [00:35:39]:
Yeah, yeah. And you know, if you think about Donkey's Year, since there'd be some, you know, usually a bloke at the bottom of the drive covered in oil, tinkering with his car, well, you don't do that anymore because your engine's just a sealed unit. You know, even on an ice car, people just don't do that unless they've got some fantastic, beautiful vintage car that they're looking after. But yeah, you know, things, things change, and people, people do do things differently. But, but it's, but it's everything, isn't it? It's from design through to manufacture, through to maintenance. Literally just on the practical level, for whether it's vehicles or back-end tech or charging infrastructure, tyres, batteries, you know, the whole kit caboodle, there's so much there. But then there's, then there's the, the more traditional jobs like the local authority jobs. You've still got people in procurement, legal, planning, or highways who are looking at it.

Tracy Kearns [00:36:43]:
And then on a sort of slightly more macro level, you've got the economists looking at what it means. You're going to have people doing carbon accounting. There's a whole range of jobs connected to the EV industry that you probably don't look at unless you sort of sit down there and do a bit of a mind map about it.

Liz Allan [00:37:05]:
And if you think about kind of like the fact that, you know, all the councils that have, all local authorities that have declared a climate emergency, like you said about the carbon accounting, you know, it's not just that, it's kind of, it's, it's ESG. It's kind of, you know, that's another phrase, you know, environmental, social and social and governance people didn't know about because we, you know, you heard however many years ago, I mean, I've been with my husband now for, you know, over 20 years and he's been working in climate change since, you know, climate science since then. And, but, and I knew certain words, but actually these things, now people are actually starting to understand it and the knock on effect about, oh, what, what do we. Because of what's being said, you know, about the client climate and us having to decarbonise. That means these things and all of these things that kind of come off from it are all different parts of the same set, you know, different sectors. But. Right, okay, we need to look at that, we need to look at this. Don't.

Liz Allan [00:38:06]:
Aren't they.

Tracy Kearns [00:38:07]:
Yeah, and even, you know, even the basic stuff that you didn't do 20 years ago, like sorting out your plastics and your cardboard and your glass jars and chucking them in different bins, you know, it's just, it's just commonplace nowadays, isn't it? But just behaviour change takes a little while, and people grumble about it, and then they'll crack on with it.

Liz Allan [00:38:31]:
Get used to it and actually go, oh, do you know what? It's not as bad as I thought it was. Yeah.

Tracy Kearns [00:38:35]:
Or don't. Or don't even think about it. You know, that's. That's the other thing. They sometimes just don't even think about.

Liz Allan [00:38:41]:
It because it's just, it's natural. You just get used to it. It goes from change and people folding their arms and going, I don't like this right through to kind of like going, oh, why do we, you know, we just do this now? Like, I remember when, you know, when they started paying for plastic bags, you know, you had to pay like you started paying 10p for your plastic bags at the supermarket or whatever. But I remember my husband had been taking plus, you know, carrier bags to put shopping in for ages, and I was like, oh, this is a bit weird. And now it's just like, yeah, I've got my jute bag with my Marks and Spencer's, and I've got my plus, you know, and I never take enough to the supermarket. But that's another thing. I always end up buying far, far too many things that he probably goes, Why'd you buy that? But anyway, that's. But, you know, these are the things that we do, aren't they?

Liz Allan [00:39:32]:
These are things that would change over time. But I was, I was going to say we're kind of going back to the, the sort of. The women in the sector. When we recorded this, the lionesses had just won the women's Euro final, didn't they? You know, and I was thinking about what. And I put this as a comment on Belinda's.

Liz Allan [00:40:00]:
Belinda's post is actually about. Because she was talking about, you know, women and being sort of involved in the automotive sector. And I just thought if we take a leaf out of the lionesses' book, and even my husband was watching it, I mean, I'm not a footy fan, so I wasn't. I can't say that I was particularly. I was interested in the result, you know, but actually, if you think about it, however many years ago, you know, like 10 years ago, yes, there was probably women's football out there, but there's. They've just had this massive following. The following is kind of. It increased.

Liz Allan [00:40:35]:
But what is it that we need to do to kind of. I'm not just talking about women, full stop, but it's about getting people to see things differently. Like, see automotive differently. But you know, how did they? If you think about it, how did they do it? Was it just about women with more women talking about it, or was it about men and women talking about it? You know, how do you bring these skills into being, and the acceptance of them? Of course. Of that, versus because if it happens naturally, it could be years and years. But this, it feels like.

Liz Allan [00:41:10]:
And I put this as well in the post. We used to have a thing on social media called a Thunderclap. Before, before you could kind of post to lots of places, you could kind of get people involved in something that was really interesting. And I was kind of like, so this is probably about 10 years ago. I was doing a lot of allergy awareness stuff.

Tracy Kearns [00:41:32]:
Okay.

Liz Allan [00:41:33]:
Because I've moved around and done different stuff as well. But actually, this, this social media thing called the Thunderclap, which was a thing you literally got lots of people involved, and you kind of posted. It was just like the idea was a bit supposing in a way, a bit like how Green Fleet does. Everybody's posting about it. But then it was called this thunderclap, which was literally loads of people coming together and sharing information. It feels like we need to kind of push things forward in that way to me.

Tracy Kearns [00:42:04]:
Yeah. So we've got. Well, I mean, there's. There are sort of two sides to it. There's the General Automotive EV field, and then there's the sort of female angle for it. And I was listening to last Friday's EV Cafe, and they were saying that there was a women in transport report that said that there were fewer women in transport, which is disappointing because all the ones, you know, they. There's quite a decent version of the female contingent in TFW, or at least on the sort of side that I was working in, which is more the bus side rather than the rail side. And I know women in transport try to do a lot of work for lobbying.

Tracy Kearns [00:42:45]:
And circling back to your question about the lionesses, you know, what's the difference? I guess it's just public exposure to role models, and when you think about it, you know, we. We are very, very lucky in the EV world. And one of the things I absolutely flipping love about it is how giving people are. So I mentioned Lorna when I first met her. There are obvious reasons why she's Green Fleet's number one influencer. I mean, she is just so giving. You've got people like Sarah Sloman, who does a brilliant job. She joined us on the rally last year, and it was great to have her there.

Tracy Kearns [00:43:26]:
You've got Gill Nowell doing what she's doing. We mentioned earlier Kate Tyrell and the Charge Safe, as well as the lobbying issue. And then if you look at it, you know, we've got a head of EVA England, who's female, and they do a heck of a lot of lobbying around Parliament. Charge UK has a female head. We've got in Scotland a female transport minister. Transport minister. England's female minister. Future Roads is female.

Tracy Kearns [00:43:59]:
So there is. There is a change, but it is. It is slow. But the bigger question, you know, whether they're females or not, irrespective of how somebody identifies, how do we get them to just think that automotive or EV is fun or interesting or. I just want to say sexy, because it is quite a lot of the time.

Liz Allan [00:44:28]:
Yeah. And it's not just men that like cars, either, is it? You know. You know, I'm. I was never a massive. Right, Okay. I would say I was a petrol head, as in, if you call a petrol head somebody who likes cars. Because of my older brothers, you know, I love cars, just love them. My husband's just not interested in the slightest, you know, but to me, I.

Liz Allan [00:44:55]:
I really love it. And also used to see my dad tinkering under the car, like you said, you know, about doing all his oil changes and all this malarkey. So, you know, it's. That's always been a thing in our family, but. So it's not. It's not just men. It's about changing the narrative, isn't it, so that we kind of attract people. But maybe we do need that kind of thunder clap from everybody, because you've just listed lots of brilliant women, you know, I mean, me and you.

Liz Allan [00:45:25]:
Yeah, yeah, you and I were in that. In that. In. In a WhatsApp group, aren't we? And there are loads of fantastic women in there.

Tracy Kearns [00:45:32]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:45:33]:
You know, but maybe it's got to be us introducing all of this to them. To people and being a bit more kind of out there. On socials or. You know, I did quite a lot on socials, but you know what I mean.

Tracy Kearns [00:45:44]:
But just, but just looking at younger people and what they're looking at for careers, you know, there is very much a push to get them to do things that are perceived as high-earning things. So, you know, everybody wants to be a doctor, everybody wants to be a dentist, everybody wants to be a lawyer, depending on what school you go to. And there are so many other things out there. There's a real range of things. And not everybody's academic. Some people are a lot more practical. And, you know, there's just that massive range of different things that people can do, whether it's something design-related, something economics-related, something practical that they're doing with their hands, but it's just, I think, you know, just getting them enthused about it. And I, I suppose years ago, you know, if you lived near Birmingham, you probably went to work for British Leyland, or if you lived near Dagenham, you went to work at Ford, in the way that if you lived in Mansfield, you went down a pit.

Tracy Kearns [00:46:51]:
And there isn't, there isn't that natural path where people go anymore. So I think it's. Yeah, I think it is quite. It is a challenge for sure to just get people thinking about different careers. They don't all have to be a wag or an influencer. They can actually do something practical with their lives.

Liz Allan [00:47:14]:
Exactly. And you know, I could, I couldn't.

Tracy Kearns [00:47:17]:
Sorry.

Liz Allan [00:47:18]:
No, no, no, no. I was gonna say I could talk to you for blooming ages about this stuff. And, we probably need to get you back on another time, because I think. Did you say sorry then? Stop saying I did.

Tracy Kearns [00:47:31]:
No, I just. Yeah, no, I did because I probably just get. I am just really passionate about it, as you know. So, yeah, it just. You have to shut me up.

Liz Allan [00:47:40]:
Listen. And actually, for everybody watching and listening, find this woman on LinkedIn, because she's on there and she's brilliant, and we have met face to face and we even had a hug, didn't we? And you supported me in the audience when I was speaking first. My first panel session at MOVE. So thank you for doing that. You and Theresa Swift were both there to support me, which was fantastic. But look, I am going to say let's, let's, we're going to come back to this, right? But my final, my final question is going to be what keeps you going in all of this, all of the different things that you've done? What keeps you going? Especially now.

Tracy Kearns [00:48:26]:
I think it's just being in roles or working with organisations where there are people that inspire you, where there is change, where there's innovation, where there's creativity. And it's not, you know, it's not every day somebody's coming up with a brilliant idea, but just people who are working towards making things better. And when I say making things better, that could be back at Boots when it was at the tablet factory and they wanted to make that more efficient or they were trying to develop some hypertensive drug or, or whatever it was through to Transport for Wales, where they are trying to come up with a bus network which reaches more people across Wales so that we've got more efficient services that link together with other modes of transport as well. So it's just. Just people who would. Who would train the best? It's always the people.

Liz Allan [00:49:30]:
Well, right, okay, so on that note, I think this is. This is a great place to stop. We've chatted so much, and like I said to you, we are going to. You and I are going to keep chatting anyway, aren't we? We've got lots to talk about, just being Northern, you know. So, Tracy, I just want to say thank you. You're just such a wonderful person, and I. And, you know, lots of people who come on here are brilliant. You are.

Liz Allan [00:49:58]:
You are kind of one of those really outstanding people that I've not known very, very long, but we've just hit it off so, so much, you know, and just. And you've got a heart of gold. So thank you. Thank you for joining me.

Tracy Kearns [00:50:11]:
That's a hell of an accolade. Thank you so much. And I'm. I'm chuffed to be here. I've never been invited to a podcast before, so I was, believe it or not, a little nervous. I probably spoke too quickly and was too giddy, but yeah, thank you for being so generous. Really appreciate it.

Liz Allan [00:50:29]:
And listen, as I say to everybody, just check her out on LinkedIn. Look at all the wonderful work that, you know, the Welsh government and Transport for Wales and everybody, you know, everywhere. And I will share your links in the show notes anyway, and as I always say, every week, please just, like, subscribe and share, you know, the videos, or if you're listening on audio, please just, you know, share it with friends, family, you know, everybody. And on that note, I'm just going to say thanks to Tracey and thank you for watching and listening, and I'll see you next time. 

Thank you for listening to Electric Evolution with Liz Allan. If you've enjoyed this episode, please follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you're a Charge Point operator, local authority, or stakeholder in EV Charging, I'd love to talk to you about our Charge Point Evolution framework. It's designed to help you create a seamless EV driver journey, boost utilisation, and maximise your return on investment.

Liz Allan [00:51:26]:
Alternatively, if you know someone who'd be a great podcast guest who might be interested in sponsoring an episode, you can email me at liz@fullcircleci.co.uk. Thanks again for listening.