Episode 161: Liz Allan and Asif Ghafoor - Building Community, Not Just Chargers

Episode 161: Liz Allan and Asif Ghafoor - Building Community, Not Just Chargers

Liz Allan speaks to Asif Ghafoor, CEO and Co-Founder of Be.EV, about his mission to build an EV charging network that does more than just deliver power, it creates community.

From his early career in banking and infrastructure to co-founding Be.EV during lockdown, Asif shares how lived experience and big-picture thinking shaped his vision for a customer-first, community-led network. They discuss Asif's philosophy behind Be.EV’s landmark Charging Oasis in Manchester, a site designed to be as welcoming and accessible as it is functional.

Asif also explains why partnerships, empowerment, and culture matter just as much as kilowatts and uptime, and why being the “CPO of choice” is about creating that warm glow for drivers. 

Asif Ghafoor Bio

Asif Ghafoor is the CEO of Be.EV, where he leads with a clear focus on community, culture, and customer experience. Drawing on years in infrastructure and investment, he has built a reputation for challenging industry norms and putting people at the heart of EV charging. Known as the “roving CEO,” Asif is often on the road, meeting drivers, visiting testing sites, and sharing candid insights on social media. Under his leadership, Be.EV has become recognised for bold design choices, strong partnerships, and a mission to make public charging welcoming, reliable, and accessible for everyone. 

Quote of the Episode

“Who wants 50,000 chargers if the experience is terrible? The real prize is building a network people actually want to use.” Asif Ghafoor

Asif Ghafoor Links:

Website: https://be-ev.co.uk

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/asif-ghafoor-095486

Transcript

Liz Allan [00:00:01]:
Okay, so on today's episode, I have with me Asif Ghafoor from Be.EV and he's the CEO. I've been trying to get you on for a little while now, Asif and I know you are so busy with your work and everything that you're doing, but thank you ever so much for joining me.

Asif Ghafoor [00:00:20]:
It's great to be invited, and I'm looking forward to the conversation as well.

Liz Allan [00:00:26]:
So let's start off, and everybody who's been watching and listening for a little while knows where I always start, and this is about you and your background. Could you give us a little background about what you did before Be.EV, even if you want to go back to that? Because we had a little conversation before we started recording about your university days, and also where you're originally from, because I didn't realise where you were originally from.

Asif Ghafoor [00:00:52]:
Yeah.

Asif Ghafoor [00:00:54]:
I was born, I was born in Liverpool and grew up in Liverpool as well and so spent, did all my schooling there and actually lived in inner city Liverpool. So I think what people would say a little bit rough these days but at the time when you're in that world you don't notice what's around you. To be honest, you think that's pretty normal as well. But it kind of helped shape me and some of the decisions which I've made for my future career. As you mentioned, I went to Bradford University, did a business studies degree and was super keen, super enthusiastic. Left uni at that time, during a period of high recession, and managed to get a few job offers, which was great. And it went into banking, and it's interesting because of the background you come from, you don't have experience in careers, so why not go into banking? Because the university ran a program over a holiday period, which gave you exposure to what a graduate would be doing over two years, over an eight-week period, and that was it, therefore, I decided to let's do banking, give that a go. Did aircraft finance work for BAE Systems, then worked for Amy, which is where I did 14 years on the infrastructure side.

Asif Ghafoor [00:02:15]:
I was the managing director of investments at Amey, and for the last five years, I had a very supportive CEO. Because one of my roles was to look at new businesses, new sectors, new markets, and he put a lot of support around. Why don't you go and look at where infrastructure is going forward and what Amey could do at that time around that Space? Unfortunately, Amey got put up for sale, so I left. But the last contract, which I tendered and won, was with Greater Manchester to run their EV charging network. And so in lockdown, Amey was like, it's not really core. We're selling the business. Would you like to buy the company? So, we bought the company, contacted my friend, who is now also a co-founder, Adrian Fielden-Grey, and the two of us acquired the company. We then brought in a few people from Amey, and that's how Be started.EV, really.

Liz Allan [00:03:14]:
Wow. And actually, I was going to say your roving CEO post on LinkedIn, really interesting. So, I saw you, you had a video, or there was a video. I don't know whether you were behind the camera or somebody else was behind the camera, but you were talking. Adrian was discussing various topics, but you really need to think about social media and the information you're sharing with people. So, you know, that was, that's. It's really interesting to see all of the posts that you're, you're putting on because you've got quite a lot of opinions as well, haven't you, about various things, which is good.

Asif Ghafoor [00:03:54]:
I always say to people there's no crime in having opinions as long as you're respectful of your opinions and you're open to listening to the counter of that as well. But you know, as a business, my chairman actually grabbed hold of me very early on and said, We need to make better use of social media. You're quite interesting. I'm not sure what he meant by that, and you should be more active. And then I said, What do I do? And he was like, just go off, you'll work it out. And I kind of spent, and I still do spend a huge amount of time actually on the road, going to sites, meeting customers, looking at the infrastructure, going to competitor sites and so on. So the roving CEO kind of was born from that and it's kind of stuck. Nearly 99% of my material is actually organic, so I produce it myself.

Asif Ghafoor [00:04:50]:
And some of my friends are like, Oh, we know you produce it because it's so you. The way you did it. I'm like, I'm not sure what that means, but see that in the way I film things and photograph things, and I try and just be real on that as well. You know, a bit of humour. I'm a Scouser. We're all funny and try to be funny and try to be me and try to be the way I talk to people. Day in, day out as well. So some of my closer friends are in business.

Asif Ghafoor [00:05:17]:
Oh my God, you're so annoying. I wake up in the morning, and the first face I see is yours, not my wife's. Because I said, well, don't look at your phone then. Look at the other side of the bed.

Liz Allan [00:05:30]:
It's very true, that's very true. However, it just shows that people are seeing you as a brand. So, how, when, and how long has it been since you actually founded Be.EV?

Asif Ghafoor [00:05:43]:
It's not been a long journey, to be honest. You know, we kind of. When we started discussing acquiring the business, we were in the. We were in lockdown. So Adrian.

Liz Allan [00:05:52]:
Yeah, yeah, sorry, you said that. Yeah, yeah.

Asif Ghafoor [00:05:54]:
Adrian was in my bubble at home, came and left his family, and came and moved in because we needed to spend time building the business plans. And we set the business up, really get going. In April 2021, we acquired our first contract and began developing the plans. It takes roughly 18 months, two years to get the infrastructure in the ground. So, you know, the real push on the network started in 23. And then we've been going at a reasonably good pace, and actually gave us a slight advantage because we were able to learn from the mistakes some of the earlier networks were making. And we tried to be very observant and like a sponge, trying to just understand and listen. And we tried to do something very different, which is that at the start, we found everyone was like, Oh my God, I've got a thousand, I've got twelve hundred, I'm going to get to eight hundred.

Asif Ghafoor [00:06:51]:
And all of this. I was like, that's so macho, male-dominated language. Whereas actually the answer to this question is how do you build a network which your customers actually want to go to, and when there is a choice? Today, people still find that there's not enough at times in certain geographies. But when we get into choice, how do you attract customers to your network? And we obsessed about that very, very early on. And that's kind of the obsession we've got now as well.

Liz Allan [00:07:23]:
But that's brilliant because you are very community-focused, aren't you? Which, to me, goes hand in hand with the whole customer experience side of things. So, when, at what point, did you decide that this is what you wanted to actually be? You wanted to be a community-focused organisation?

Asif Ghafoor [00:07:48]:
I think of two things. You're going to laugh at this, but two things kind of shape that. One is 1976.

Liz Allan [00:07:57]:
Okay.

Asif Ghafoor [00:07:58]:
The other is 2016. So the sixes in there, at least as a commonality. But for me, the element around the community is all about shaping some of the experiences Adrian and I have had in our lives. And then as we've built the team out, the team have had and you are. There's a danger that we do things, especially in this quite geeky, climate-focused world, where we become our own bubble and talk to everyone else within our bubble, and we think everyone gets it. And why don't you get it? Well, actually, the mass market doesn't get it. And in 1976 when we moved to Kensington in Liverpool, it was. That's mass market.

Asif Ghafoor [00:08:43]:
That's basically, you know, the Labour Party loves using the phrase ordinary working class. That is a working-class area of Liverpool, and if you can capture that community on this journey, that was important to me in 2016 because that was Brexit, the Brexit vote. And if the one thing we learned, no matter what side of the fence you sat on, on in or out, was actually if you don't take the nation with you, the communities you're operating in, the people you work with, the people you're going to affect, you're going to have quite a backlash. And this isn't about how do I become green yet. The Superkinis are excited by that mass market, more worried about the cost of living, how am I going to keep my job, how do I get my kids to school, school, how do I get from A to B, how do I have a good time and have a few holidays and opportunities around that? And then how do you create that community-based network which places its charges in the community, thinks about regeneration, but in a way which engages the community as part of that process and looks at building a network which has got the customer at the heart of it, but it's not just an elitist customer, it's everybody in that space. And how do you get the early adopters, but also how do you think about building in the future, future drivers and build that network associated with that. That was kind of the core, and it's always been one of the things a team will always try. What do we mean by community? And I give them numerous examples of, you know, we did, we did a bus pull yesterday for the mayor's charity in Manchester, that's being part of the community as well as working with Manchester University or with Bradford University or actually putting charges in the right locations, offering good value for off-peak drivers and so on.

Asif Ghafoor [00:10:35]:
And so there are multiple ways I've actually been able to deliver that community piece.

Liz Allan [00:10:40]:
You just beat me to it. Because that's exactly what I was going to say, was going to ask you, because, you know, engaging with your community is so important. And that's really, really interesting what you said about, about kind of 1976 and 2016, those, those milestones for you in your life that's had that impact on your working life and your career and what you're trying to build as an organisation, is that, is that something that you've. You've carried on sort of moving forwards with that same ethos, then?

Asif Ghafoor [00:11:10]:
Yes, we have. And, you know, one of the big things for me with the team is we've tried to build a team which is not just technically competent but culturally bought into the journey. And everyone in the business every month goes out and goes to charges and talks to customers, goes to competitors, charges, talks to customers, shares their own experiences. And that data, those data points, are captured as part of our customer analysis. But it's not. Finance does that, HR does that, and so does the core customer team as well. That kind of culture. Being out talking to people and not just listening to your own voices or your own mini groups is important because, going back to that 2016 example, the danger was that everyone was just listening to themselves.

Asif Ghafoor [00:12:02]:
And as the world becomes more polarised, we're finding that people aren't listening to opinions and listening to different voices, and they're just tuning into their own. And this is an important piece in the business as much as it was in the foundations of what we set up.

Liz Allan [00:12:18]:
I was going to say to me now, from what you're saying, it also feels like you've got that real community element within the business itself because of what your own ethos is and what it's been. That's a really, really good idea to get people to go out and try out the different charges, you know, like you say, competitors and everything like that. But just like, you know, talking to people and engaging and understanding what they want and what bothers them and what they're happy or sad about or angry about and all of that kind of stuff, it's really simple, isn't it? But it just takes that little bit of time. Yeah.

Asif Ghafoor [00:12:57]:
And you look at this space, you know, what are we, what are we doing? Ultimately, we're selling electrons in an experience which nobody falls out of bed to say, oh, I hope today's charging experience is going to be absolutely amazing. People just want this to be a frictionless, effortless activity which fits in with what the exciting things are, whether it's going to a traffic centre or going bowling or actually flipping around on your phone and doing something else. And that element of understanding. And it was interesting because the first wave of doing this with the team, I'm always learning. So the roving CEO is actually roving for A reason, because I'm learning. And we filmed some of the team members who had never charged before, and we watched what they were doing; immediately, the penny dropped. Our instructions on our charges, A, were too small, so anyone who didn't wear glasses couldn't read them, and B, they were wrong.

Asif Ghafoor [00:13:53]:
They were in the wrong steps. You had a lot of confusion. But you kind of sit in an office and you design it, and it sort of makes lots of sense. You go out and apply it to people who've never done it before in the community, and you suddenly begin to see that that customer experience is already lost at step one. And that's been. That's been such a big part of the work we're doing, which involves examining these kinds of steps, signage, lighting, safety, space bays, and all this kind of stuff as part. As well as your digital experience experience and so on.

Asif Ghafoor [00:14:28]:
And. And those people who know me know I get extremely. I kind of. I'm forever climbing a hill, get to the top of the hill, and I kind of forget to say, yeah, we're at the top of the hill, because I see another hill.

Liz Allan [00:14:40]:
Oh, God, yeah, I know that one. Yeah, yeah, that. I've got to say, that's the way my brain works. As if, honestly. But yeah, yes, you don't. It's. You need to remember to celebrate those milestones rather than, like you say, seeing that Helen goes right, next hill, carry on. You know, it's like doing the three peaks 25 times, isn't it? You know, just keep going.

Liz Allan [00:15:03]:
But I was going to say the other thing that you just made me think about then, when you were talking about those instructions. It's that simplicity, isn't it? Making it simple. Because it's. To me, it's a bit like making a cake. If you make a cake and miss an ingredient, you don't come out with a cake, do you? Yeah, you sound like cakes. But if you know. But actually, if you get the ingredients in the right order, in the right measurements, and you make it simple for people, then that's what it is. That's what comes out the other end, isn't it? It's a really good seamless charging experience.

Liz Allan [00:15:39]:
Not a cake, obviously. I mean, a cake extra would be good.

Asif Ghafoor [00:15:42]:
But you know, Andy, and you become quite obsessive about this because you're continually refining, and it's interesting when we observe the early adopters, their need for instruction and information and data is very different from what we're observing with mass market and then different age groups and sexes and so on. We're beginning to observe. And how do you then go about blending stuff like that into the mix? And one of the opportunities we've had is because we've just built this quite amazing site in central Manchester called our Charging Oasis Road. We've actually used that as a test bed for some of the future developments. And look at, you know, we're going to try. We're trialling canopies at present. A huge debate internally. I even think they are pink because I overruled everybody.

Asif Ghafoor [00:16:38]:
You are going to be pink. Love it. Everybody wanted green, right? But they are pink because at that time in our colour palette, we had pink as well. And I was like, Oh, it's nice to have a bit of a pop. And our architect, who designed the site for us from the outset, actually came up with the design. I'm like, you wouldn't tell Pablo Picasso how to redraw. So I've employed an expert. I want this.

Asif Ghafoor [00:17:07]:
I think that I'm going to rely on my experts output and kind of drive it from that.

Liz Allan [00:17:13]:
But pink's, I mean, you know, I love pink myself. I've got to, I've got to say and green and pink work pretty well together, don't they? You know, so, so yeah, like you say, you've got to go with that person who's, who's put that, those ideas forward. And so how's, how's it looking now that it's. I've seen some images, but I've not been up to Manchester to actually visit yet. What, how's, how's it, how's it working out? What's. I suppose what, what's the biggest, besides the pink, you know, kind of canopy. What are the biggest lessons that you've learned from, from kind of installing that charging Oasis? Is there, is there anything major that stuck, you know, stood out to you?

Asif Ghafoor [00:17:53]:
Yeah, it's basically to have a belief and go with it. Because on day one, when we were offered the land to buy, I said to Adrian, Come on, let's get it. That's as far as the conversation went. We didn't run any models or Anything. We bought the land, and then we were like, It's a great location, I'm sure it'll work. And not that I recommend that as a future land policy strategy at all. But on day one, I phoned an architect I knew and I said, Can you design this? Rather than infrastructure, people creating petrol layout, petrol station layouts, we've got space here. How do we design it? How do we add an amenity? So you've got a circular design, people are parked around the edge, and fundamentally, we said we want to build something which is.

Asif Ghafoor [00:18:44]:
We said to him, the brief was, can we get the Hanging Gardens of Babylon people to charge in tranquil peace? It's a derelict, dirty ex-petrol station in an area which needs a lot of regeneration and support to bring the area up and the communities to have belief and opportunity. How can we create something which is, which is a wow factor? And that was kind of the belief. And I genuinely do think that's what we ended up delivering as well. But there was all, you know, we had a version with a canopy, then the canopy was blocking the doors' opening, a big canopy with a circular one in the middle, the doors opening. So we're thinking, no, accessibility is important, and also drivers manoeuvring will bang into it. So we just went through a few versions of that. But we kept to our initial belief that actually we're trying to create something which is community driven, which is a Hanging Gardens of Bagulanda Charger, hence why it's called the Charging Gardens Oasis. And it has a lovely amenity.

Asif Ghafoor [00:19:47]:
It also has a Nero Express on it. And I do recommend, and I invite people to many more, welcome to all our charging, charging stations. But this one is definitely worth a visit.

Liz Allan [00:19:59]:
I will definitely, definitely visit one next time I'm up north. And actually, yes, I think that's, that's a, that's a really good, a good thing to do. You've just brought me perfect, perfectly into partnerships because you were just talking about, about, you know, kind of Cafe Nero and places like that, because you're very big on partnerships, aren't you? And, I know for an organisation like yourselves, that's going to be of utmost importance anyway. How, how does it, how does it work? How do you choose the partners that you're working with, whether it's, you know, whether it's kind of your installers or whether it's kind of your back office systems or the partners that you're working with on site?

Asif Ghafoor [00:20:45]:
For me, this space and the stage we're at in this market, you need to be nimble, and you need to surround yourself with a group of very intelligent people. There's a.. I'll name it, because I know he's retired, maybe he's not retiring, he's leaving. Current CEO of Kia, a guy called Andrew Davis, who was my mentor at bae. And he said to me, when he picked me to join his team, I was like, Why have you picked me? I'm a bit odd, don't fit in this mould of what you've set up. And he said, because I know the limitation of my knowledge and the edge of my envelope is X, you're now extending that. And that's the ethos which I have taken into my life forward. And as you said, the partners we go out with need to be able to deliver the edge of what we, as a business, can offer. We're a principal; our business model is very much.

Asif Ghafoor [00:21:41]:
You're a prime contractor, you're the intelligent party running the operations. All of our services are effectively outsourced to competent third parties, who we're proud to have as partners, and we're very loyal because we will. Basically, we're not. I don't think we are in the market trying to tinker with saving 10p here and there. Yeah, costs are going to keep an eye on. But fundamentally, it's about building proper partnerships, giving people confidence in volume coming through so they can invest in their business. And as we grow, they grow and we sit alongside each other and support each other. And as we've seen when times have been, we've made mistakes, we've done silly things here and there, or even right at the beginning, DLA is a good example of a partner the law firm abused.

Asif Ghafoor [00:22:34]:
Day zero. They said to me, You know, Asif, we believe in you. I was like, I don't even know what I'm doing yet. What do you mean you believe? We believe in you. We'll provide free legal services until the point you can pay. And that took me 18 months to have that capital raised. I'd spent a few hundred thousand by then on legals. But actually, the belief of that partnership, from their perspective, because they've seen the way it operated historically, meant they were able to provide that support and really appreciate it.

Asif Ghafoor [00:23:03]:
And then going forward, we know they're our main provider of services. And so we kind of, you know, you walk through that and you've got to be as good on your intentions as your partners are. And 95% of the time, we're never let down.

Liz Allan [00:23:19]:
Oh, that's amazing. And that's what you need, isn't it? But it's that kind of choosing with integrity, you know, and making sure that those partners that you're working with have also got integrity. So it's kind of like that mirror, isn't it? Like for like.

Asif Ghafoor [00:23:37]:
And I treat them below my internal team. I'm never, I'm not one who shy in coming full forward. If we've got something to say, people will kind of know. But also, we've got praise to give. We'll be giving praise, but our partners know when we're not happy, and they also know. And they'll try and do something about it immediately. They also know when they've been doing things really well, and you saw on the charging Oasis the number of people we had working on that from a partnership perspective, and a lot of them were in. Had to carry.

Asif Ghafoor [00:24:09]:
They carried their belief even though at times we weren't quite sure what we were going on about. They did the work to get us to a point where we could deliver the project, and we delivered that. I compared it to many four-core type models. We delivered that very cost-effectively and rarely. Having worked in infrastructure for 14 years, we delivered that on time, on budget. I fell off my chair. I was expensive. Expecting a cost overrun of at least a few weeks' delay.

Asif Ghafoor [00:24:38]:
If I'm being honest, not to tell the team that.

Liz Allan [00:24:44]:
Oh, that's a. Well, yeah. I mean any kind of project you tend to expect the overspend and the. And the kind of. And the overexertion to try and get there on the dot of the, you know. Right. We've got to get there or it just flies past, doesn't it? I want to just touch on something because we've not done this yet, because you talked a minute ago about the investment with this, you know, with the services. Can you talk a little bit about how you work with Octopus and what Octopus's involvement is?

Asif Ghafoor [00:25:17]:
As we know, the octopus has many tentacles, and the tentacles we're working with are OCTOPUS Energy Generation, which is an infrastructure fund. They invested in the business back in 2022. And one of the factors, when we went out to market to look for our first major investment, we were quite keen to get not just money but also work with an institution that can provide all the stuff I've talked about around partnerships, consumer behaviours and provide some learning and some support. And I do think the Octopus model for customers is absolutely freaking amazing. And we try to replicate and behave and ape a lot of that and try to talk to them. So we get access to the teams if we want to go and ask questions. It's like a professional mentorship. We work with the Electroverse team, as, you know, a number of other CPOs and we. We have electric vehicles from Octopus coming in for the company car scheme.

Asif Ghafoor [00:26:22]:
Got the investment coming in, but also the support you get and the access to the individuals. And they run an event recently at Battersea Park for a day, and you just go and listen to what's going on in adjacent sectors, heat pumps, wind, all this kind of stuff. It's interesting because you can carry over some of that experience and the people you meet, and so on. So, the investment: we could have gone quite lazy and just gone, 'Oh, let's just go to one of the big funds and get some cash.' But we didn't want that. We wanted a partner who really had the belief and provided that suppor,t and 100%, I can say that's what we have had as well.

Liz Allan [00:27:05]:
It just, to me, feels like I've always. I've always had a really good vibe about Octopus. We're with them here at home, and, you know, I just personally really like them, but it also feels like they mirror your ethos. You know, all the things you've been sayin,g and you've just been talking a little bit about Octopus. That's just you, isn't it, that I can understand why that works.

Asif Ghafoor [00:27:33]:
Yeah. I mean, basically, you know, that. That vibe you've. Which is hard to explain. I have the same. I'm a domestic Octopus customer, as is any family member I bump into suddenly becomes an Octopus customer as well. But for me, the bit about which you can't put your finger on and which is the prize I'm trying to win isn't to build a network with 50,000 chargers. Who wants 50,000 chargers if you have a terrible experience? Experience.

Asif Ghafoor [00:28:03]:
It's about, how did that customer get that vibe, that. That warm glow when they think about us as a. As a network they want to go and charge with and they feel this is the right way of the. We've behaved right. And it makes them feel cuddly as a result of that.

Liz Allan [00:28:21]:
I like that, I like that. But I mean, you know, what you're doing is that is the. There are a number of networks and I'm not going to name names or anything, but I would say that there are a number of networks that aren't doing what you're doing in this way. There are some that don't make me feel cuddly, I've got to say, at all, you know, but when it comes down to it, it's not just about return. Return on investment is really important because those assets that you're putting in the ground are not cheap, are they? When we talk about that, you know, but it's not just about the installation, is it? And, and being. Because the work that we've been doing at Full Circle has involved this. It's about the next stage. It's about what that, you know, like you're saying about that customer experience.

Liz Allan [00:29:17]:
What is it? If you could, if you could pinpoint that, that one thing that, you know, kind of that wonderful thing that you're providing your customers with. I mean, I know there's going to be a plethora and we've talked about them, but what is the one thing that you would say gives them that cuddly feeling?

Asif Ghafoor [00:29:37]:
I think it goes back to what we started with, which was around Community. When I've been out, we did a public launch at the Charging Oasis and we did a promotion which caused a lot of few eyebrows raised, where we reduced the peak price to 50p and off peak to 25p. And that created a conversation and with our customers. My customers are coming up to me and having conversations with me about the price and how they feel about that and how that could be carried across and why did we do that? Why can't we have that on the rest of the network and how it matters to them where they can't charge at home and the experience they're getting and how they felt that we'd actually listened from a community perspective to the brand. The brand had listened to the community and the drivers out there. And these were mass market drivers, interestingly, not early adopters.

Liz Allan [00:30:32]:
Interesting.

Asif Ghafoor [00:30:34]:
And they'd driven across to an event at a, let's face it, an EV charging station on a Saturday. Yeah, Saturday lunchtime. Fair enough. We're doing a 1p charge promo for the day, 1p kilowatt charge. But the, but it was just interesting for me that one bit. And get, you know, the, if you said the heart of the business about is, you know, we're trying to get that customer right, the customer experience right. But if you have a. If you have the right heart with starting from community, I think you can get this right as opposed to, you know, people used to ask me, Sorry, just interrupting you there.

Asif Ghafoor [00:31:11]:
But people used to ask me, what's your exit plan? Like? I don't know what my bloody exit Plan is, I haven't got an exit plan. Like, no, you must have an exit plan. You're just not sharing it. Hand on heart, Adrian and I never went into this going, oh, there's an exit plan. Apart from, hopefully we're still alive, so we're going to have to. That could be an exit. But otherwise the rest of it was, we're having fun, we're building something, but we want to be true to what we're trying to set up here. And if that.

Asif Ghafoor [00:31:40]:
If you've suddenly got. And there's loads of books written on purpose, if your purpose drifts off into multiple activities and you can pretend to be customer focused, but you're really thinking, oh, how can I turn this business and sell it in three years? Or how can I do this? You can smell it. If you can feel it in the way the network's being delivered and the experience you're having as a customer, I genuinely think you can. Or if you end up in a large corporate type environment, you can feel it in the way the customer experience kind of comes out. And we're just trying to be really true to what we've set up and try to create here.

Liz Allan [00:32:19]:
It's funny, the one word I've just written down is fun because. Because actually when I, you know, I've seen a lot of your socials, especially Angela Murison, who was kind of, she was involved in, and when you were just talking then, it just reminded me of some of the things that you were getting the drivers to do, which were hilarious. And, you know, and obviously Angela and the things she was doing, it comes across like that, it comes across as fun. And, and like you say, if you, if you come into Exit, that's not really a journey, is it? That's just like, it's just a bit of a motorway or a flyover.

Asif Ghafoor [00:33:03]:
Yeah, yeah. And the, and with the. Angela, Angela is quite a good example and the team internally worked with her. They were like, well, what's our, what's our boundary of what we can't do? I said, I think you can, you've got common sense, you can work out what your boundaries is. I am not setting you boundaries, nor do you need them. I trust you to go out. I said, you know, we, you know what the brand is, you know how what we're trying to build, if you guys. And that's come to, that's all been done by them without having to come back for, you know, in a large organization, got 16 layers of approval.

Asif Ghafoor [00:33:36]:
The brand should never be in that color and that shape or that clone and so on, there's been none. They've just gone off. And the first time I've seen all of that material is when it's been posted and I'm like, oh, okay, what's going on? It's funny, but what's going on sometimes around this as well, but, you know, that's if you built the ethos into the business and the culture into the business, right, then that you can get. You can trust your teams to get on with it.

Liz Allan [00:34:08]:
Yeah, yeah. That is the whole point. It's the word I call, you know, it's empowerment.

Asif Ghafoor [00:34:14]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:34:14]:
It's. To me, there is no point in micromanaging people. Doesn't matter how big your business is, you know, And I'm very, very much a very pro positive culture, you know, and that, to me, part of that is about empowering your team, giving them the ability to make those decisions, decisions themselves, rather than micromanaging them and worrying that they might do something wrong. Because actually you need to be going off and doing stuff yourself, don't you? You've got your roving, you know, you're roving CEO hat on. So you need to do all that and all of the other stuff that comes with it. So. So micromanaging. Let's put a little cross again, a big cross against that one.

Liz Allan [00:34:52]:
And a big few ticks, you know, kind of next to. Next to empowerment. But that's. That's what. What your team, you're giving your team, isn't it?

Asif Ghafoor [00:35:01]:
Yeah. I'm breaking news. My team will make mistakes. I will make mistakes. And my answer to it always is, did anyone die in the process? No. Then let's move on. That's basically, you're not making mistakes, you're not taking the risks, actually. And most of those mistakes were made in a very controlled, yeah, we'll lose some money or something.

Asif Ghafoor [00:35:23]:
Won't be that as amazing as it should have been. But that's life. Yeah. No one's noticed. No one needs to stress. There's no. No one's trying to find someone to kind of pull down. And then separately with the team, we try and do some fun.

Asif Ghafoor [00:35:35]:
Yeah. We take them, we have our summer trip to the races. We do various events. We end up in the wrong curry house. We're trying that again, by the way.

Liz Allan [00:35:46]:
Oh, God. Excellent.

Asif Ghafoor [00:35:49]:
And we organise this massive event. There's a big blue pyramid of the M60 in Stockport, which is become this amazing Royal Noav Indian restaurant. I think it seats like 10,000 or something.

Liz Allan [00:36:02]:
Oh, my God.

Asif Ghafoor [00:36:03]:
So we all turned up with great excitement there, only to be told, you're in the. You. You've booked the Nawab, not the Royal Nawab, which is back. Hey.

Liz Allan [00:36:16]:
And they couldn't see. They couldn't see you, even though it was 10,000 seats.

Asif Ghafoor [00:36:20]:
Fully. Fully booked on a Wednesday.

Liz Allan [00:36:22]:
Get out of town. Oh, my God.

Asif Ghafoor [00:36:24]:
On a Monday. And the embarrassing thing is the team have all taken the train and then getting taxis for the final bit, and they're all turning up and going, turn the taxi round. Don't stop. We're going back, but we're going to give it another go in September as a team. So, having a second round of the pyramid. But the person who booked it, who won't be named and shamed, hasn't booked it this time.

Liz Allan [00:36:48]:
Funny that I would. I wonder why. I wonder why. I have been known to actually book a weekend away or a hotel on the wrong day, but I've only ever done that once. So, yes, I have done that myself, but, yeah, let's move swiftly on from that one. So I wanted to just go back to your charging Oasis, because there was something that I was scrolling, scribbling while. While you were talking and you were talking about the way that the charging Oasis was. Was laid out.

Liz Allan [00:37:18]:
And this is why I really want to see this, because to me, when you were saying it was kind of. It was. It was circular.

Asif Ghafoor [00:37:25]:
Yes.

Liz Allan [00:37:26]:
Was that so that the drivers could talk to each other? Because to me, that you give. You're putting it in a.. You're providing it in a very different way. If you're doing it like that and not. I know what it is. I don't know whether you. You've probably had the same thing as me. You go, you rock up to a charge,r and you do end up striking up a conversation with the person in the car next to you because you.

Liz Allan [00:37:49]:
You know, because it is really geeky and if you're at a charger, it means you've done, you know, done the whole thing. And the other day I was saying to a guy, How's Renault Scenic going? And, you know, I had to check the badge on the front first, but you don't. But was that. Was that purposeful as well? The. The kind of. The circular. Yeah.

Asif Ghafoor [00:38:08]:
And I think it comes back to. You've got to think he's going about men here, but a lot of stuff historically designed by men for men in a very. Quite an aggressive, brutal fashion. Whereas actually. Why. Because. Why is it? Why are we just pulling in? Because they're finding petrol, you pull in, you pump, you go.

Asif Ghafoor [00:38:33]:
But actually, you're not going. You're sitting there and going straight in. Why? Why is that? Okay, that was. It's the same as suddenly, you can imagine if petrol stations are just being built in stables, you'd have gone, well, why are you putting them in stables? And this is. And so we basically. We didn't design it, we designed it to think about the aesthetics. And this is why having an architect-led approach was important for me. And there's a lot of rolling of eyes from the construction team and the ops team.

Asif Ghafoor [00:39:03]:
Oh my gosh. And the architect, Ed Lipton, is amazing, but they're always a bit crazy, aren't they, architects. And he kind of comes up with these designs and people. Sometimes you can't get the vision he's got, the way he's presenting it and so on. But having that circular form flow of people coming in, the movements, the vehicles, the turning circle, it's thinking about not. Not your Nigel Mansell being able to drive, but it's you and me who aren't that and me. So I'm assuming you're not amazing at driving. You might be amazing at driving.

Liz Allan [00:39:40]:
I like driving. I'm not saying that I'm perfect, but I like it.

Asif Ghafoor [00:39:44]:
I'm not very good at it. So I'll put my hand up and say, I don't enjoy it that much. I. And I kind of find it very functional. But actually turning.

Liz Allan [00:39:53]:
Husbands like that. Husband's very much like that. He thinks it's very functional as well. He'd rather walk or cycle somewhere.

Asif Ghafoor [00:39:59]:
So would I as well. So you end up. But thinking about that turning and in and out and reversing in and, you know, we look at some of the conventional bays today where so many people have pranged, the bollards as well. Why are they designed? So it's thinking through these types of things as well as the aesthetics. And then, yeah, people actually, it's not as easy to chat because we've created more space between the vehicles because we were conscious of when families come, you don't. Okay, you might get immunity. Sometimes you don't want a coffee, you just want to get out, stretch your legs, look at the plants, let the kids out, let the dog out and all this kind of stuff. So we create a space for that.

Liz Allan [00:40:38]:
But that. What you're actually saying is that you have, you've taken the chance to do it differently. And, and, and I wrote, I wrote a post. Well, I think it was a newsletter from probably two or three months back. Now, that is on the lines of the, you know what you're talking about, making it. Making charging or giving people the ability to go to charging hubs or whatever, just giving them something different and giving them the ability to do those things. Like you said, just have a bit of a chill out because we're all just operating at 120, 130, 140 miles an hour, aren't we? Our brains and we're doing stuff and we're just out and we don't stop. To me, I like charging because it makes me stop, whereas I don't care about.

Liz Allan [00:41:30]:
I'm sorry, if you, if you're still driving petrol or diesel and you're listening to this or watching it, I'm not saying I don't care in this way, but 500 miles, please don't do it because it's not safe anyway, you know. But actually, if you could, you know, I stop after what, two, two and a half hours because it's a good thing to do. Never mind the fact that we do need to charge, you know, because like we've only got a small battery, but it's a good thing to do. And if we're going somewhere, like you're talking about with the charging Oasis, it means that you can actually just chill out a bit.

Asif Ghafoor [00:42:06]:
And this is also just about break for me, this isn't. I'm not trying to enter this space to just break the norms. But take so that I've talked about chip breaking the norm on design. There's also breaking the norm on the way people charge. So power companies sell me power off-peak. Power is from nine until seven. I think it is off the top of my head. 9 pm to 7 am but who, if I'm a driver, 9 pm, I remember Jim Jams getting ready for bed.

Liz Allan [00:42:36]:
I'm watching some crap on telly usually.

Asif Ghafoor [00:42:38]:
Exactly. You're getting to your end zone of your day. But we basically said, okay, on the charging Oasis, where we thought, let's try and break the norm. We've made it seven till seven. We were like, well, why not make it a bit more when people are off-peak. I am off peak in my personal life. Well, I'm still, actually, still finishing work. But if I had a normal personal life, I'd be off peaking at 7.

Asif Ghafoor [00:43:01]:
I wouldn't be off peaking at 9. I'm betting at 9. And so creating that kind and that kind of trial and test and breaking the mould and trying to do something different, thinking about the Customer and how the customer thinks about off-peak as opposed to. How the power companies designated it for the last hundred years and so on. Makes that. And trying to apply that out is important as well as the design and the aesthetics and the app experience, and so on and so on.

Liz Allan [00:43:32]:
Yeah, I think that way of thinking is so refreshing, to be honest. It's really good. Good to hear that. I'm going to start. I'm going to probably have another couple of questions for you, and this one's a little bit quirky, but I think I have a feeling you might like it. So if you could install a BV charger or a hub anywhere, anywhere in the world, where would it be?

Asif Ghafoor [00:44:06]:
Anywhere in the world. I think in cities as in city centres. I just feel that as a driver, it is impossible to charge if you're in a city centre. Now, if you take London, even all the way up to the A406, take that as a big centre. It's very hard to find good quality, quality ultra rapid charging in Manchester city centre. Apart from the bits where they've closed the roads or where the roads are, the land's more valuable for property. I'm not going to go to Addis Ababa or something like that. I think for me it's practical about where we find it hard to find, and actually would be amazing because there's so much demand in those types of locations.

Asif Ghafoor [00:44:59]:
Locations and being able to deliver what the community wants in those areas would be. Would be my number one priority in that.

Liz Allan [00:45:06]:
Okay. And I know you're looking, you're looking to purchase more land and you want more sites, don't you? I suppose I'll ask you another question after this, but what are the types of sites that you are currently looking for? Are you looking for something similar to the charging Oasis?

Asif Ghafoor [00:45:26]:
Yeah, we basically do these things, you learn, you do it, you learn, you pivot, and for us, we've kind of really focused our attention on destinations. So predominantly retail parks where people will just plug in and go off and do their shopping or whatever activity, and drive-throughs, they're kind of the main areas and the drive-throughs are a subset of what we did at the charging races. We have less control over the aesthetics. We've been thinking about how we can get more of that, but actually, that's kind of been the focus on the new development of sites. And also, as you know, we're a great British brand, so we've been looking to expand the network across. We started off in Greater Manchester. There's A lot of infrastructure now going on in the Midlands and in the south, geography-wise as well.

Liz Allan [00:46:19]:
Okay, so. And what is your vision for the next five years? What would you like to see BV achieve in the next five years? That will be my last question.

Asif Ghafoor [00:46:33]:
Okay. And I. This is a very easy one because I talk about this every single day. So for me, it's about being the number one CPO of choice for customers. I would love for you to know that giddy feeling you had about Octopus. I would love for people to organically have that feeling without me trying to nudge them to say it.

Liz Allan [00:46:59]:
And. Yeah, and just carrying on the way that you are. As long as you don't develop lots of extra tentacles, you'll be absolutely. You. I can imagine you'll be absolutely fine.

Asif Ghafoor [00:47:10]:
Yeah, no, we're very, we're very single, focused. We've been interested in public charging and addressing that need. I have no interest in dilly-dallying. What they've been. We've been sent propositions for things like boats, planes, trucks, and all the. I like. That's very interesting. It's for somebody else.

Liz Allan [00:47:29]:
So for me, yeah, I think that's good to keep yourself in your, in your own, your own space. Do what you're good at doing and just keep, keep doing it. And Asif, it's been really lovely talking to you. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you. Just really for your time. I know you're a busy chap. You're, you know, running around the country and doing all sorts of different things and involved in lots of stuff.

Liz Allan [00:47:57]:
We didn't even get to all this. Well, I'll have to get you on again to talk about what you're doing with Bradford University as well, because that was just. Yeah, that'll be a follow-up. That'll have to be a follow-up conversation, and hopefully I'll bump into a future event. So, so we can kind of, you know, I can have a, you know. Do you do cuddles? Because I'm into a cuddle, you know, hugs, that kind of thing. If you're up for that, then that's me.

Asif Ghafoor [00:48:20]:
Okay, perfect. Okay. You, you. I'll book a hug with you as well then. For sure.

Liz Allan [00:48:26]:
Got it, got it. But listen, thank, thank you. And to everybody watching and listening in, thank you. Please share, like, subscribe, and do all the wonderful things that I always ask you to do. Check out the Electric Evolution LinkedIn page, where all the podcasts are on there and the shorts that we put on as well. And just thank you, everybody, for watching and listening. Asif, it's been lovely to talk to you. And I'm going to say to everybody else, see you next time.

Liz Allan [00:48:53]:
Bye. Bye.