Episode 166: Liz Allan and Tim Dexter - Tackling the UK’s EV Charging Lottery

Episode 166: Liz Allan and Tim Dexter -  Tackling the UK's EV Charging Lottery.

Liz Allan speaks to Tim Dexter, UK Vehicle Policy Manager at Transport & Environment (T&E), one of Europe's leading organisations campaigning for cleaner, fairer, and more sustainable transport.

Together, they review the findings from T&E's influential "Charging Lottery" report, which used AI to analyse over 250,000 public charging reviews across the UK. The results reveal both progress and persistent challenges in reliability, repair times, and accessibility.

Tim shares insights into how air pollution shaped his career, from leading air quality campaigns at Asthma and Lung UK to influencing EV policy at the European level, and why ensuring fairness for all drivers, including those without driveways, is critical to a successful transition to net zero.

This episode explores the growing gap between regulation and repair, how local authorities can navigate funding and delivery challenges, and why public reporting of broken chargers could be a game-changer for transparency.

Liz and Tim discuss what must happen next to ensure that EV charging infrastructure becomes not just widespread, but reliable, inclusive, and fit for the future.

Tim Dexter Bio:
Tim Dexter is the UK Vehicle Policy Manager at Transport & Environment (T&E), a Brussels-based NGO driving sustainable transport policy across Europe and beyond. With a background in air pollution advocacy at Asthma and Lung UK, Tim has spent his career connecting environmental data with human impact. At T&E, he focuses on decarbonising road transport, improving EV infrastructure policy, and ensuring a just transition that benefits everyone, from manufacturers to everyday drivers. His work reflects a deep commitment to cleaner air, fair access, and the future of sustainable mobility. 

Quote of the episode:
"Everybody, whether you're rich or poor, rural or urban, should have the right to affordable, reliable charging. This transition has to work for everyone." — Tim Dexter.

Tim Dexter Links:
Website: https://www.transportenvironment.org/te-united-kingdom/articles/charging-lottery-a-consumers-perspective
Tim Dexter LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.

Transcript

Liz Allan [00:00:01]:
Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Electric Evolution podcast. So today I'm joined by Tim Dexter. He is the UK Vehicle Policy Manager at Transport and Environment. We call it kind of T and E, don't we, Tim? So thank you ever so much for joining me. It's lovely to see you. We've met in person, which was fantastic as well. So thank you for joining.

Tim Dexter [00:00:26]:
Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.

Liz Allan [00:00:29]:
So I suppose I'd better explain a little bit about how we met as well. We, I think we were talking before I even knew you were going to be on the panel. But we were in London, say, only a couple of weeks ago now, so in October. In October. And actually, we were both on this panel, and I was moderating it, and there was you, Smith, the wonderful Sarah Sloman and Sean Keating from Believe. And yeah, really, it was a really positive panel and I could have talked forever to you guys, and I think a lot of other people said this on customer experience, and we were looking at future proofing, EV charging for customer experience, weren't we?

Tim Dexter [00:01:15]:
Yeah, it was good. There were lots, yeah, I think we kind of started lots of conversations that we didn't get to finish. We just basically introduced topics. But as someone who's still relatively new to EVs and EV infrastructure, it was nice to be on the panel with lots of big hitters.

Liz Allan [00:01:30]:
It was, honestly, yeah, I really, really enjoyed it, and like I say, that was my first time moderating a panel. But yeah, it was, it was good. And bless you. It's because I do this, you know, do this podcast. So let's, let's go right back to the beginning about you because you've got quite an interesting history, especially your previous employers, haven't you? Tell us a little bit about how you got to the point of working for T and E. Yeah, so prior.

Tim Dexter [00:02:02]:
To this, I was working for a health charity called Asthma Lung UK, and I was leading the work there on air pollution. So lots of stuff around sustainable transportation, and it was very on the ground campaigning, so supporting lots of community groups in different cities across the country, definitely in those most polluted areas. So whether that's in London, Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow, trying to really add voice to those communities because I mean, we saw that as the best way to try and enact change there. Air pollution policy world can be very slow-moving, but there's also lots of stuff that can be done at the regional level, especially now. We've got so many, we've got Regional mayors in charge across the country and with lots of evolution that's happened at that level. So really supporting them and making sure their voices were heard and just trying to amplify that as much as possible, which was really great to see. And yeah, as with lots of, lots of things in this, in this area, it's challenging, but it's always nice when you get big wins and seeing stuff like the Ulez campaign pay off. And we had some really good news just last week or a couple of weeks ago that London's now meeting legal compliance.

Tim Dexter [00:03:07]:
There's still a long way to go to get to actually kind of much healthier air, but to see it actively come down, and now that London is meeting legal compliance at least shows it's going in the right direction. And you start to see the long-term benefits of some of those campaigns, not just the immediate policy wins, but actually the change that it can bring.

Liz Allan [00:03:25]:
And that's fabulous. And I've had Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debra on the podcast previously, so I know that she's probably going to be pretty happy about that. But, you know, it and I just wanted to kind of just focus on this for a second. There are a lot of people who don't recognise the need for clean air and what is polluting not just London's air, but the rest of the country's air?

Tim Dexter [00:03:55]:
Yeah, there's a lot of complacency about it. One of the hardest things working in that area is obviously people can't see it. We describe it as an invisible threat, but I mean, if you had some way of kind of visualising it, if it, if it did look like the smoke off a cigarette or something, I think it would be a lot more apparent and you'd be a lot more concerned, particularly in inner city areas where you've got these busy roads going past schools. And the impact we know that has on children, children who grow up in highly polluted areas could have their lungs severely stunted by the time they get older. So this is life, a lifelong impact that it's having on them. And like I say, I've met lots of inspiring people working in that, but not more than Rosamund and the work that she has done and continues to do, very inspiring.

Liz Allan [00:04:39]:
She absolutely is. And I mean, you know, I suppose anywhere where there is a traffic bottleneck is going to be a pollution, a massive pollution risk, isn't it? You know, so that, that in itself, like you said, schools, you know, people don't realise that when a child is in kindergarten. Not preschool necessarily, but kind of. Well, even that. But, you know, kind of reception age or even sort of like quite a few early years walking next to cars that are just parked or got their engines on or, you know, there's bottlenecks because parents are trying to get their kids to school. Their kids and they are breathing all this in, aren't they?

Tim Dexter [00:05:26]:
Yeah, they are. And it's even the small things. So we talk about the ambient air quality, the quality that's generally around. Around us in the atmosphere, but there are even the little things too. So there's an increased risk just because children are smaller. So, therefore, they're closer to the tailpipe. So that increases what they're actually breathing in directly. And you can have a big impact just by making sure that you're walking away from the curbside.

Tim Dexter [00:05:48]:
So a bit further away really does help. But obviously that doesn't necessarily impact the. I would say the ambient air quality, which you'll be breathing in, sort of day in, day out.

Liz Allan [00:05:57]:
God. I mean. So you've got little kiddies, haven't you? We've talked about this. One of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was going to say that's why you're usually kept awake in the middle of the night, actually. And I did say you look quite perky today. Sorry, if you're listening.

Liz Allan [00:06:11]:
But it looks quite perky today, just before.

Tim Dexter [00:06:15]:
Just before coming on air. Yeah, two little kiddies, one that's three years and two months and one that is nine months. And you might hear them run through the door in a minute, actually.

Liz Allan [00:06:25]:
Oh, gosh. So I was gonna say, has this been part of the reason for you to move to T and E? Because you're, you know, you've gone from this, the campaigning and all of the work that you can do, but now it's kind of. It's just dawned on me you're at the root cause that, in some ways, aren't you?

Tim Dexter [00:06:47]:
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely an area that you start to feel really passionately about. And hearing these kinds of stories only really drives that. And when you start to have even more of a connection because of your own changes and circumstances, knowing people that might be impacted, it kind of helps to inspire you, but I think it also helps to make the connection about the work that you're doing. Obviously, this is slightly working more in a policy context now, but I think as a campaigner, in a way, we're all kind of campaigners for this; you start to think about what it is that's actually driving people in their own behaviours. And what do we need to do to try and get them to think differently about these things? Because everybody's got their own experiences, and that's what they're making their personal choices based on. They're making their choices of what's cheaper for them, what's more convenient, what feels right for them. So it's not just about and like just supplying people with lots of information and data that can be quite rich and heavy. But how are you making sure that you're telling stories that are connecting to them in their day-to-day?

Liz Allan [00:07:46]:
It is that you're right. That's storytelling for sure. Let's. Let's move on to your move into T and E, then. So you've only been kind of. You've been around the company for a little while now, haven't you? But what. Will you just explain a little bit about what T and E actually do?

Tim Dexter [00:08:08]:
Yeah, definitely. So we are T&E UK. So we're the National Office of Transport and Environment, or T&E, to save time again. And T&E are mostly based in Brussels, so we have a big office there. And that's where we were set up and founded. Looking to work with and influence the European Parliament and European Commission to make sure that we're driving forward sustainable transport. How can we look to clean up our transport system, whether that's on the road, whether that's shipping, or whether that's aviation, looking at the sector as a whole to make sure that we're driving that forward in a way that's sustainable, but also that's practical. Because when we're looking at these things, we know what's really important is that we can't just look at a kind of drive of what's going to be greenest.

Tim Dexter [00:08:51]:
But if we're going to make sure that this is sustainable and viable, we need to look at a way that's how we're making sure that we're protecting jobs. How do we make sure that we're making people's lives easier and more beneficial? So that just transition at both ends from manufacturing to consumer is really important for us because we want to make sure that we're moving forward, but that people are really experiencing the benefits of that drive to greener and cleaner transport that has to be at the heart of clean, of everything that we do.

Liz Allan [00:09:22]:
So, okay, so at the moment, and I know we had a little chat before we started recording, didn't we? There are, there were a few, there are a few things that you're you're involved with. And we'll talk about your charging lottery report, which is brilliant and just right up my street. But the other. What other things are actually kind of on the. On the agenda at the moment because I just got stepping back a second. You're so you, like you said, you're in the UK. The organisation is European. But you're, you're kind of.

Liz Allan [00:09:58]:
You're wider than that, aren't you? You're actually touching on a variety of other kinds of parts of the world. Really.

Tim Dexter [00:10:05]:
Yeah, I mean it's, it changes depending on all the different areas. So we are, we are expanding as well into the Asia Pacific. We're still excited to work with some partners out there and opening a Singapore office too, which is exciting, and that's really just a recognition of that. While it's really important to influence at the national level, we've got other national offices in France, Germany, Poland, Spain, Italy, and probably somewhere else that I'm missing. So apologies to whichever office that is. While that's really important and while the European level is really important, we know that when it comes to, obviously, like shipping transport, that is a global issue. This is about the kind of containers that are being tracked from the Far East into Europe and back the other way as well. So we need to make sure that we're covering both sides to have that holistic view.

Tim Dexter [00:10:56]:
Yeah. Then in terms of what that looks like for shipping and aviation, there's a lot about sustainable fuels and that comes of ties into the road work too, because we often hear when it comes to how we can decarbonize HGVs or electric vehicles or vehicles to electric, that there's lots of transition refuels that are important and play a role in this, which for that sector isn't right because we know we have the solutions there already. So that's just delaying what the best choice is. And then when we're looking at that wider picture of shipping and aviation, they can't really decarbonise, definitely not as easily through electrification. So those sustainable fuels, those. Whether it's E-fuels, the only way that we can do that is through those alternative fuels. So we need to make sure that all the resources that are put into producing those are going towards sustainable aviation.

Liz Allan 

So I just want to talk about the report, the charging lottery report that came out this July, which I was saying to you before we started recording. I still can't believe that we're in October, but actually, in the grand scheme of things, this. What you did with this report is still very, very relevant.

Liz Allan [00:13:54]:
And I sat in on a webinar where you and Sarah Sloman were on it. And I think it was hosted by Gill Nowell, who's amazing. So, can you just talk a little bit about why this report? Tell me a little bit about the report and why it was important.

Tim Dexter [00:14:16]:
Yeah. So what we wanted to do was obviously look at charging infrastructure as it exists at the moment, but go a bit further beyond just the numbers, because the numbers are really important to make sure that we're getting a good rollout, that it's in line with where we need to be for EV rollout at the moment, where they are, whether we've got the right charges in the right places, all really essential. And we do cover that in the report and give a little bit of an update and a breakdown of what the rollout is by local authority so we can start to see what's the gap and what's the divide. And interestingly, what we found is that there isn't necessarily a kind of urban-rural divide or a north-south divide. It's very much individual on a local authority, by local authority, by basis. So that kind of starts to give an indication of where some of the issues might be and what's causing the unequal rollout. But yeah, we wanted to go a bit further beyond that and actually look at how consumers were engaging with the infrastructure that exists at the moment. So we thought about how we could do a bit of a deep dive.

Tim Dexter [00:15:18]:
So we were able to build an AI tool which could scrape a quarter of a million reviews online, and we could look to analyse those and just see what consumers were saying about those individual charge points. And yeah, it definitely came back with some interesting figures that gave some insight and led us to make a few more recommendations on what currently exists in terms of charging point regulation.

Liz Allan [00:15:43]:
And actually, just looking at it, you know, it was some of it quite staggering. I suppose my question really was, I know that it's quite, you know, it's early days for you in being involved in the sector. What was, what was the biggest surprise for you that came out of this?

Tim Dexter [00:16:08]:
I think, I mean, I think for me it was just the, what the number one issue was that people were facing. So of all those quarter of a million reviews, a third of them were the fact that it was a failed, failed charge, that they weren't able to actually utilise the charge point, which is shocking. And then the next one down was slower than expected. And we'd expect this kind of thing of whether it's waiting time, whether it maybe was a bit slower than you wanted, whether it wasn't quite in the right location, but the fact they weren't able to charge at all is continuing and I think kind of give some insights. The fact that maybe we need to make sure that we're regulating the sector a bit better, and that people are able to access those charge points. Digging into it a bit further and looking at a small sample of about 500 charges, I think we were able to see that kind of like mapping the reviews that came in and it suggested that only 20% of broken charges were fixed within 24 hours and 40% within one week, which suggests that the kind of the repair time isn't as quick as we need it. And that's despite the fact that the current charge point regulation says that we need to have 99% of uptime for charges. And this is really important when it comes back to that story element too, because as we're trying to go about the transition, you know, we've got what people call the early adopters through the door and we're now moving through to the mass market and people will do massive public publicity campaigns and marketing campaigns trying to drive people to choose an electric vehicle for their next car.

Tim Dexter [00:17:37]:
But if they know someone who's got an electric car, what will drive that decision more is whether they know that person has had a good or bad experience. And if that person's dependent on a charge point but they tell them just never works, or it's always broken, or it's been broken for a week, you know, that's delaying up that other person's decision for another, what, three, five years before they're considering it. Because those are the stories that leave a lasting impact.


Liz Allan [00:18:21]:
So as you just said, about the 95% uptime because of the. The UK charging regs.

Liz Allan [00:18:51]:
I have a question as well. It talks about the uptime, but it doesn't talk about the repair time. So if you. And I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to be scathing or anything like that about any charge point operator at all, but the. Any. And I've said this to lots of other people, any regulation that is open to interpretation. That's just what it is; it's open to interpretation.

Liz Allan [00:19:28]:
So, so you know the idea of this 95% uptime, fantastic. But what does, what does that actually mean in your mind? Because it doesn't. To me, that doesn't say anything about. And needs to be repaired within X. That's partly. Say, if we talk about a local authority that's within their KPIs and their contract with the CPO, isn't it?

Tim Dexter [00:19:54]:
Yeah, I mean, it feels like a. It's a missing regulation, basically. It's not really covered. And that's one of the things in the report that we suggest. We say that 20% should be fixed within 24 hours. And the CPO should look to have 100% fixed within a week. And we think that feels more than fair. Obviously, there might be mitigating circumstances, whether that's a mass energy blackout within a particular area, which they couldn't account for, but within what's reasonably in their control.

Tim Dexter [00:20:23]:
All charge points should be fixed within a week, and we'd like to see that put forward by the government as part of an update to the charge point regulation. And then that kind of provides that template for councils to put into their KPIs, and it's something that charge operators know they need to meet across the country. It's just a blanket spread, and there are ways that you can look to do that. Whether that's obviously upping your own investment and resources to be able to fix charge points, but more innovatively, could you look to share those resources across different ChargePoint operators if they have more of a presence in one area? Can you kind of make sure that you're covering each other's own charge points? There are different ways that you could look to go about that, which form part of our discussion that we had a couple of weeks ago.

Liz Allan [00:21:06]:
And there is a thing called preventative maintenance, and we discussed that, you know, kind of during the panel session, didn't we? Because, and I was, I was talking to a local authority around here or a chap from a local authority recently, and we were talking about prevent. I was saying about preventative maintenance and from what it sounds, and I'm, I'm not being, I'm not saying who it is and it wasn't particularly, I, I'm kind of incorporating my own thoughts into, into what this chap said that the unit itself, so the actual physical charger itself was under say like a three year warranty and this was owned by them. So, preventative maintenance was at the top of their agenda because it was under warranty, but actually, preventative maintenance in itself. And because I've worked in service and maintenance myself, that is about it. It's a bit like, I know you don't necessarily need to get your washing machine, you know, kind of serviced or whatever, but actually, if it breaks down and you haven't done any maintenance on it, it's kind of. Oh, do you know what I mean? It's going to cost, cost you more. So one of my old neighbours, bless him, used to say, Prevention is better than cure.

Tim Dexter [00:22:29]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:22:30]:
You know, and actually that's kind of how I, that's how I see this.

Tim Dexter [00:22:35]:
Yeah, definitely. I mean, again, I think it's just about the. The allocation of resources and priorities. Right. So if we make sure that. That there's a greater onus on ChargePoint operators, which I think is what that 99% uptime was supposed to do. But while things have improved, I don't think we're still quite there. And while we need to do more to make sure that we're reaching the 99% of uptime, there are obviously bits within that we need to cover to make sure that we're really having the.

Tim Dexter [00:23:05]:
I mean, because this is all about qualitative impact as well as quantitative, right? Yes. Making sure that people have that quality of experience when it comes to operating their vehicle as much as possible.

Liz Allan [00:23:16]:
Because actually, and I know you know this, and I haven't actually spoken about this on the podcast before, but myself and Michelle Liddell, who I've been working with in full circle for about four years now, we've set up another organization called Charge ycx and it's a platform where this is exactly what we're doing with a developer, bless him, he's brilliant. And it's to kind of highlight this. And I know we've got regulations, but actually, there are things that I believe we haven't got full sight of. We haven't got full transparency. And if the, you know, this can help so many people, including CPOs, recognise the potential risks of being caught out by the ChargePoint regs and if. And if it's tightened up, you know, because not. I've kind of worked with some councils up in Scotland, and the CPO that we were working with there, their kind of front-end and service end didn't. They weren't quite aligned.

Liz Allan [00:24:28]:
So if you've got that, it means there's a manic. You've got to have manual intervention to actually get the front and the back end to talk to each other. It's a bit like having, having one of those, what you call them, you know, from. Oh, flipping egg, you know, like a horse that's got people in it. Look, you see, I'm. My, my ADHD brain's totally gone now, you know, which, you know, you know what I mean? Where you've got like, you have it. No, it's not in a circus; somebody's going to be shouting. I've had this before, where I've had a complete brain fart.

Liz Allan [00:24:57]:
So people, if you're listening and watching, I apologise. But, you know, it's. If you're thinking about. It's like a comedy horse-type thing where people are in it. But actually, if you've got the front and the back end that are going in opposite directions, you're looking like a push me, pull you, aren't you? You know, and this, and this is where we need to. That was a really long way around kind of explaining. But you know, we've got to have that level of transparency for everybody's sick. And the ultimate, like you said, the ultimate goal is getting more people into EVs.

Liz Allan [00:25:34]:
And I totally, totally am on that. You know, that is, that is how I think too. And actually if, if we don't get this customer and listen to the customer sentiment. Yeah, we, you know, we're on. We're not, we're not doing what we should be doing to get those people into those EVs.

Tim Dexter [00:25:55]:
Yeah, definitely. I mean, again, one of the other recommendations from our report is that there should be public reporting of broken charges and public sentiment because we need to make sure that we've got an overview of what the issues are. We shouldn't, you know, we don't want to have to necessarily come back and do a big data scrape of information again to kind of see this. But if we have that public report reporting and that's publicly available, then we're able to, as a sector, as all these groups of stakeholders, there are lots of people that are interested and invested in making sure that we get this right. And sometimes having that information and curing it with sunlight is the best cure. So if we have that, then we can start to take the steps we need. Whether that's sharing of resources, whether that's more government intervention, whether that's local authorities, what they can do to, to play a role in this is all really important. So I think that would be really key to make sure that it is publicly reported by the local authority.

Liz Allan [00:26:49]:
And the biggest, I was going to say the biggest thing, is that at some point, this is going to be critical infrastructure. So it's got, it's got to be, you know, it's got to be on the, on the button, hasn't it?

Tim Dexter [00:27:00]:
100%. And, then the other side to this is obviously the people that are depending on it because we know that for the most part, people who are wealthier and drive EVs, they'll be using their at-home charging and they'll be topping up as they go about longer journeys. But people who are potentially poorer or don't have access to off-street parking are more likely to rely on the public charge points. So it's unfairly impacting those people who are already possibly having to pay a lot more for their actual electricity, for their energy supply, for the car, anyway. But then they got a problem of actually being able to access it in the first place.

Liz Allan [00:27:37]:
It does feel very disproportionate, doesn't it, really? If you kind of look at it, you know, the people who. Who we really want to. And really want them to get into an EV, we're kind of. We're penalising them, you know, for the fact that they. They haven't got a drive or, you know, kind of. They live in a terrace block, in a flat, or somewhere like that. You know, it's. It's making this.

Liz Allan [00:28:06]:
And this is another of my hats, it's making it inclusive, isn't it?

Tim Dexter [00:28:10]:
Yeah, absolutely. And everybody, whether you're living in the countryside, living in the middle of a city, whether you're rich or poor, everybody should have the right to have affordable quality charging to make sure that we're actually going about this transition in a way that's. That's good for everyone.

Liz Allan [00:28:26]:
And reducing, going back to your previous role in the previous company, reducing that level of air pollution so we have fewer people becoming poorly. Because if you've got lots of people becoming poorly and, you know, like you said about lung development and things like that, then it becomes a stress on the NHS, which has a value itself, you know, so it's. It's not. Not. It's not just about. I could say from my husband's point of view as a climate scientist, you know, you want to do it for the emissions, but actually, from a health point of view, as in every day, breathing this stuff in. That's the really important bit.

Tim Dexter [00:29:08]:
Yeah. And transition is really key to bringing down those nitrogen dioxide levels or nitrogen oxide levels in general. And today it's very timely that we're having that discussion, because they've just started the court case on Dieselgate, where you've got all the manufacturers being taken to the High Court by over a million. I think it is car owners who were duped by manufacturers into buying cars that emit a lot more. And it's mad to think this started 10 years ago. The case that starts today and goes all the way might go on for another two years, so.

Liz Allan [00:29:40]:
Oh, my God.

Tim Dexter [00:29:42]:
And all those cars are still. There's plenty of them still on the road today that are still emitting far more than what they claim, claim that they did when they were first put out there, which just highlights the need as to why we need to speed.

Liz Allan [00:29:54]:
Up that transition and I won't even go into anything about the, about the kind of the incentives that were out there previously for diesel. So let's not touch on that one. But the report itself also looks at rural charging, doesn't it? And you've got some figures in there about what the disparity for rural charging is. Can you just kind of explain a little bit on that one?

Tim Dexter [00:30:24]:
Yeah. I mean, so what we found when it comes to the actual rollout of chargers is that there are a lot of places in rural communities that are doing really well in Wales. Yeah. Across. Across England. It's not necessarily whether it's a rural or urban divide that's the big issue here. And of course, you'd expect people in rural communities to have access to the off-street parking anyway. So it's making sure that we've got the ability for people who are going on longer journeys about those communities or through those communities to have access to charging points, to be able to top them up as they go.

Tim Dexter [00:30:58]:
So it really, I think when it came down to what the big barriers are for local authorities and being able to actually roll out and increase the numbers, it's hard to say because of the lack of data and available information. But I think anecdotally a lot of people would say having a really good person or a good team that's willing to put in the time to really push this forward internally in the local authority or be willing to put the time to make bids to pitch for some of the government grants that are out there.

Liz Allan [00:31:28]:
I mean, it's, it's not, it's not easy for local authorities. I mean, you know, I've been, like I say, I've been talking to a few and they get, they get kind of, they've got their job, which has got, it's, it's a bit like an onion. There are lots of layers to it. So they're not necessarily just, even if, you know, kind of, they could be doing highways, they could be doing this, they could be doing that. I mean somebody. And I can't even remember which council it is, but one of the councils that I know, somebody who's looking after EV charging also looks after crematoriums, you know, so, so there's this, there's all of this, and they're, well, they're running on a shoestring in some ways, aren't they? Because, you know, kind of, it's not, it's just not easy for them. So I get you. And we do kind of need that support, you know, or them, actually, fund them.

Liz Allan [00:32:26]:
It's. It would be good to have that kind of those people inside the local authorities. But the, you know, kind of the Levi, the Levi funding, the capability funding isn't always going to fund a person. Sometimes it's going into a funding pot, isn't it, to help the council, and it's just layered again onto that, that person's. A person's job role. So it's not, that's not easy. It's about trying to help them as well. And again, that's the same thing we're trying to do on kind of the.

Tim Dexter [00:33:01]:
Platform side, but availability to information, be able to make that business case to make it a bit easier. But also we want to have that kind of. That the government over view that it shouldn't necessarily be dependent on. And while it's great and these people are amazing that they're driving it forward internally and absolute heroes of this, but also it shouldn't be dependent necessarily on a council being lucky enough to have that because then we see some places who just haven't been able to prioritize that because we do know the constraints local authorities are under that it would be great to have government have the more overarching look and utilize some of the information, such as been pulled out in our report and is highlighted by lots of people to say this is where the gap is in the network. Then that's what needs to be filled, and that's what needs to be prioritised.

Liz Allan [00:33:47]:
Because it's not easy. I mean, so would you say there are other barriers for the local authorities to kind of, when it comes to delivering consistent charging experiences for the residents and the visitors. Are there other things that you found?

Tim Dexter [00:34:08]:
Yeah, I think making sure that they have. There's a possibility of a more consistent picture in terms of what they're asking for when they're working with ChargePoint operators. You know, that's, that's, that's really key because you'll have some people who have experience of this, some people who are kind of, it's like you say, just being added onto their job title. So if there's a way to make sure that it's either standardized through the government and you've got more support to be able to do that, or are you working more closely with local authorities that have had this experience before so that you really understand where are the potential pitfalls, what it is that you need to be looking out for, just sharing that experience, that information, just that knowledge Base, which is really approaching this definitely for the first time.

Liz Allan [00:34:50]:
I mean, and when it comes to the contracts between the local authority and the charging networks, because of the kind of return on investment side of things, the local authority is signing up to 15-year contracts, aren't they? So that is, that is a significant amount of time. It's not like you'd have a mortgage with a, you know, kind of fixed rate for 15 years. You know, normally, the turnover and the turnaround for this is a lot different. I'm not trying to pull you into a conversation that points fingers, but what are your thoughts on that?

Tim Dexter [00:35:30]:
I mean. Yeah, it is, it is really. Oh, sorry. I was about to say something, but forgot it. Bear with me. What was I going to say? Where did I end my last point?

Liz Allan [00:35:47]:
You were talking because I asked you about that kind of that. Is there something that were it, you know, helps councils or kind of the consistent ex. The consistent experience that they'd have in.

Tim Dexter [00:36:27]:
Okay. So, yeah, that consistency is really important, but also one of the things that we need to remember is also to make this work, we need to make sure that there's a viable business case for Chargepoint operators. One of the things at the moment, while we've had this really good rollout and while it's really important, that continues. Definitely. As we see more electric vehicles being rolled out there, we're getting to a point where we're fairly consistently, consistently seeing a quarter of all new vehicles sold as electric and starting to overtake petrol sales as well, which is fantastic. We need to make sure that there is a business case, and at the moment, what we pulled out in our report is that 16% of utilisation in terms of time by charge points, but there's 4% utilisation in terms of energy. So that's.

Tim Dexter [00:37:21]:
In terms of the actual energy that could be provided, that's only 4% right now. So it's very hard to make that business case when it's. When it's quite so low. So to help support local authorities, how can we make sure that there's. That. There's that appeal when approaching and kind of putting these things out to tender.

Liz Allan [00:37:41]:
So hang on, right, so you just said. So you've got 6, 16. It's showing it from the report you've done, you've seen 16%. It's showing a 16% utilisation. So only 4 of time, but only 4% energy, which would be what they beget, what the, what the charge point, charge charging network would be getting money, you know, for. Oh my God, that's massive.

Tim Dexter [00:38:09]:
Yeah, it's huge. And so it's hard to continue to make that case until we start to see, to see that go up. But obviously, we need to make sure that the rollout continues to be supported, and we'll probably start to see that anyway as we reach the next round of the transition. We start to get, we did some analysis where we're looking at about 21 models of EVs on the market by 2027 that are under £27,000. So we start to get cheaper mass market vehicles rolling out, and these then do start to appeal to people who are lower incomes, much more affordable. You could get a lower leasing agreement, and possibly in that market where they're less likely to have a driveway, so more dependent on that off-street parking. So we might start to see that utilisation goes up, and there'll be greater demand for them in general, too. You know, where people are parking on the street, whether that's from lamppost charging, etc.

Tim Dexter [00:39:04]:
So we are starting to get to that point where it will tip over. Definitely looks that way, but it's just something that we need to bear in mind as well from the CPO perspective.

Liz Allan [00:39:14]:
Did you, and I don't think. I'm not sure you did, but have you or are you thinking about looking at the local authorities and their cross-payment solutions or is that more difficult to kind of pull data for?

Tim Dexter [00:39:28]:
That's difficult to pull data for. So it's not something we've been able to go through, but it would, it would be. Yeah, it would be interesting to see, to see some more.

Liz Allan [00:39:37]:
Yeah. Because I know that there are some local authorities that are a bit reticent to kind of integrate, you know, kind of cross pavement solutions, you know, and I'm going to be talking to somebody in the next few weeks who I'm hoping to bring on the podcast. Who are they bringing? I think they've actually introduced four different cross pavement solutions at the pilot level to try and see how, you know, see how it goes. So there's some, there's some that. I suppose it depends on how risk-averse your council is as well. Doesn't it?

Tim Dexter [00:40:15]:
Yeah, exactly. And I think there was something out today from Heidi Alexander, the Secretary of State for Transport, about the money that's been made available to local authorities for introducing gullies as well as a cross-payment solution. It's interesting, and it feels kind of necessary in the immediate. But then we're also left with the issue of whether you are living on a road, will you be able to guarantee that you're able to park outside your front door? Very busy roads that can be hard depending on what time you're getting back and the difficulties with that. There are lots of things to consider, and it might be that it's right for some people but not right for others. And we need to make sure that we're kind of having that holistic view. And if it's not right for others, we still need to make sure that you are, as we said, that you can actually access a charging point in the works. But also, that's affordable because at the moment it's not necessarily affordable, and it's not; they're not getting the benefit from the EV that they should be.

Tim Dexter [00:41:15]:
When you're able to really experience the benefit of cheap charging, charging at home on your own energy network, that's not necessarily the case. And are you making much more of a saving than you would be if you were driving a petrol car? And the point is that they absolutely should, and they could be, but that's not the case at the moment.

Liz Allan [00:41:35]:
So I was in a meeting at Everything Electric last Friday. I know you went on the Saturday, didn't you? And someone in the meeting was talking. I'm sure there were some stats that either they had pulled or someone they knew had pulled with regard to the number of people who could park outside their house, you know, on a regular basis. I mean, I know as British people we're not that good at talking to each other unless you're up north, and then we just talk to anybody. But kind of down the southeast, if you're, you know, there is that sort of, you can't talk to that person. But actually whoever, whoever it was, and I think it was in the southeast they were talking about, you know, kind of, you could either park outside or at least one down from, you know, from where your house was, which means that the cross channel solution still works. But also on the other side there's, there's also the Gantry arms. So, so there was another chap in there in the meeting talking about the, you know, kind of the Arm, the kind of the, the kind of the charging arm that, because the cross pavement channels aren't going to work for everybody, especially somebody, for example, who's in a wheelchair and who can't, can't kind of get the, get the cable in and out that easily, you know.

Liz Allan [00:43:04]:
So again, it's about looking at different solutions that fit, that, you know, fit correctly, isn't it, for trying to make sure that we include as many people as possible in this transition.

Tim Dexter [00:43:18]:
Yeah, definitely. And yeah, making sure that we've got innovative solutions for that as well. And yeah, we do want people to experience it, and it needs to be right. But again, not every solution is going to be right for everyone. Whether that's kind of from the gully or whether that's the gantry. I think the last time that I lived in a terrace house, it was good, it's a good five or six meters. That feels like quite a substantial structure to have going over your front garden, over the pavement and then out to the car as well. So we know, we know all the various different roads and types of housing that we get in the UK.

Tim Dexter [00:43:48]:
There are lots of different problems that come with each one.

Liz Allan [00:43:52]:
But it, yeah, but it is like I say, if it's, if it's not, if it's not manageable, if the gully solution isn't manageable for some, for certain people, there's got to be other, other options. But I know that the regular, you know, kind of the, the regs that are coming out at the moment or the mandatory requirements are kind of more looking at the, the kind of the channels in the pavement and we have, and I've talked about this before on the podcast because I've had a couple of the cross pavement solution companies on and you know, we've, we've, we've had these water channels for a long time. You know, they've just been it. Yeah. I remember going up to Oxford a couple of years back and going, Oh, look, there's one of them. And it was just a water channel, you know, cut into the payment. So we have had them. It's not as if they haven't been around.

Liz Allan [00:44:40]:
But, but yeah, it's all, all of these things, all of these things are really important. Do you know what? I'm just, I want to go back to the thing because this is kind of blowing my mind about what you said about utilisation, and I hope you don't mind me asking. And we have got other things to talk about, and I'm keeping an eye on the time too. But what. Right, so you said 16% utilisation, but for 4% energy. Where the heck is the difference? Did you find, did you suss out that? Is that just?

Tim Dexter [00:45:15]:
We didn't dig into it. It was, it was, it was obviously just a little point to see where some of the issues might be. But I guess that's just people that, you know, might be using a charging point overnight, just plug it in because they don't have off-street parking, probably makes up for that. Yeah, plug it into one on the roads. But. So, yeah, obviously, you could assume the gap is people who are overstaying beyond the 100% charge.

Liz Allan [00:45:39]:
But could it also open a can of worms with regard to faulty charges as well? Going back to what you just said earlier on about that, you know, kind of the charges not being repaired within the timescale that you'd expect. Expect. Do you think there's going to be something there? God, this is, this. If it is that we're looking, we are looking at a can of worms, aren't we, here?

Tim Dexter [00:46:01]:
Yeah, I don't know. We haven't done it. So I wouldn't like to say. It would be interesting to look into the impact of that. It could be downtime playing a role in that, too. I mean. Yeah, you wouldn't, it would definitely. Any downtown would obviously be impacting it.

Tim Dexter [00:46:15]:
But I mean, it still, it still leaves a massive gap in terms of.

Liz Allan [00:46:20]:
I suppose the people who would be able to understand that would be the energy providers, wouldn't they? You know, so, so yeah, that's information.

Tim Dexter [00:46:28]:
And that, that ability to kind of really dig into these things.

Liz Allan [00:46:32]:
God, that'd be a while. Right? Let's move on. Oh, my goodness. So I know you've, we've talked a lot about consumer sentiment, but I think we covered this a little bit during our, during the panel session. But actually, maybe we haven't because in your report, you were talking about reducing VAT on public charging. How feasible is that? Because I've had other people making, having different thoughts on it, to be honest.

Tim Dexter [00:47:08]:
I mean, it should be very feasible because one of the government's priorities is, as has been reiterated today by the Secretary of State, is trying to get people into electric cars and supporting that and making sure that that's viable, that that's affordable. And we know that the ability to access charge points and affordable charge points is one of the biggest barriers to this. So, taking away that and making sure that it's in Line with, it's not about removing it completely, but it's in line with the energy that you get at home, which is a 5% and we pay 20% of the charge point. That's obviously a big part of the energy cost. So I think that would be, that would be huge. And also another recommendation we've got in there is making sure that sustainable electricity going towards charging is part of the renewable transport fuel obligation, too. Just to really make sure that we've, that we've got that supply and that it starts to benefit operators too by bringing down the cost.

Liz Allan [00:48:05]:
But I mean, yeah, I know that the chargepoint operators are having, you know, their standing, standing charges went up massively, didn't they? Something like 400% for a standing charge. I mean, good grief, that's, you know, even if they can address some of that, then hopefully it'll start kind of bringing the, bringing, you know, bringing the prices down. But I'm going to ask you a question that is, a little bit of a naughty one. Is the government listening? When we're looking, when we talk about things like this, are they listening?

Tim Dexter [00:48:39]:
I think they are. I think about whether it has an impact. These things are, you know, they could be long and they could be painful, but, you know, I think they are listening, and I think as we start to tell this consumer side of the story again, that's why it's really important, you know, these things all work together. And like we said before, there are lots of stakeholders and lots of people who are interested in making sure that this works. We've got to combine these things together. We've got the Z Band Aid in place, we've got this necessity for manufacturers to produce, some of whom are based in the UK. We've got Nissan plant, we've got Jaguar Land Rover, we've got Mini, we're producing four powertrains up in Halewood in Liverpool. There's a great benefit to this transition here.

Tim Dexter [00:49:20]:
The next stage is one we need to make sure that it's working for consumers, and it is for a lot of consumers at the moment. They get those benefits. But as we get to the next stage, how can we make sure that it's working for them too? So we're continuing to drive that demand that is moving us towards making sure that we're meeting our net-zero target. The ZEV mandate is the biggest decarbonisation policy that we've got in the UK. So it's huge, but it's also great because it's a great Industrial policy too, because it makes sure that we're keeping up pace with foreign competitiveness in terms of EVs too. So, you know, we've got a lot of these things in place at the moment. We just need to make sure that we're continuing to progress on them. And I think that's the way to tell the story, because it is all part of one package and telling that story and making sure that it goes back to people who are at that point of considering what car they are going to buy next.

Liz Allan [00:50:08]:
So, as one final question then, are there. Because obviously you're working with other countries at T and E, are there other countries where we could take a lesson from or who we could take the lesson from, with regards to what's been working for them that we're not currently doing?

Tim Dexter [00:50:33]:
Oh, that's a great question. I mean, there are lots of little bits, and it's kind of vice versa, too, because there are lots that they can learn from us. We also need to kind of congratulate ourselves a little bit on the things we're doing right, and remember that we're doing them right and they're working. The Zev mandates are far more ambitious policies than what they've got in the EU, so that's. It's helping to drive out the rollout quicker than there. So, you know, that gives us a competitive advantage in some ways, so that's really important. But then in other countries you've got other things that you could do, such as making sure that we're maybe more fairly taxing polluting cars and bigger cars too. In France, you've got that, you've got.

Tim Dexter [00:51:12]:
I think the tax rate on a BMW X5 is 20 times more in France than it is in the UK. So in France, you're paying £66,000 for the acquisition tax, less than that in the UK, so we're paying just over three and a half thousand pounds. So that's a huge difference. And obviously, that's a very extreme way of doing it. But it just goes to show that some of the solutions out there can be more bold and that you don't need to necessarily tinker around the edges. But taking those big steps sometimes is key to making sure that you're helping with this.

Liz Allan [00:51:47]:
And do you think we're going to see it?

Tim Dexter [00:51:53]:
I'm always hopeful. I think we're going to see, start to see progress. This is something that needs to happen. We know the direction of travel. It's. Do we want to really make that ambition now? And really set some bold targets for the near term, or do we want to struggle in the future? Do we want to be lagging behind? People are still suffering, with people, particularly on lower incomes, having to buy very expensive to run petrol and diesel cars or hybrid cars, which still rely mostly on petrol and diesel. Do we want to make sure that we've got an automotive industry in the UK in 10 to 15 years' time, or do we want to be subject to lots of cheap imports from overseas? It might mean that for two or three years, we really need to get on with it and actually go about it. But this is for the long-term benefit.

Liz Allan [00:52:45]:
I think. On that note, I think we're going to finish, aren't we? Because there's. There's a lot. There's a lot to. We've unpacked a shedload today, Tim. Oh, my God. Yeah, well, this is kind of. We probably had what we had; I think we had 40 minutes for our panel session, and we've had just over 50 now.

Liz Allan [00:53:03]:
And that's just me and you talking. Imagine if the. If all of us turned up. My goodness, maybe I should do that. Maybe I need to get us all in, all in together. But listen, it's been fabulous talking to you. So interesting. And I love the fact that you, you know, of the background that you came from and what you're doing now, just.

Liz Allan [00:53:24]:
Yeah, it's, it's brilliant. And I want to. I'm going to keep an eye out for all of your reports in future. Definitely. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Into my inbox.

Liz Allan [00:53:33]:
Thank you very much. But, yeah, thank. Thank you, Tim. It's been an absolute joy talking to you.

Tim Dexter [00:53:40]:
Thanks so much for having me.

Liz Allan [00:53:41]:
Oh, bless you. Well, so on that note, I'm going to say to everybody else, thank you for watching and listening. I always say it, please, like, subscribe, share with all these wonderful friends and family that might actually be interested in this kind of stuff, and work colleagues. Take a look at our LinkedIn Electric Evolution page, and we are on YouTube and all sorts, so just check it out. But on that note, again, I'm going to say thanks to Tim and to everybody for watching and listening. I'll see you next time. Bye. Bye.