Episode 169: Liz Allan and Craig Marsden - The Accuracy Revolution: Why EV Charging Needs a Diamond Standard

Episode 169: Liz Allan and Craig Marsden - The Accuracy Revolution: Why EV Charging Needs a Diamond Standard.

Liz Allan speaks to Craig Marsden, CEO of EVCI Global, the team pioneering accuracy testing for public EV chargers and setting the bar with their Diamond Standard accreditation.

Craig shares the journey from his early EV adoption in 2013 (and never once successfully rapid-charging away from home!) through to heading up a company that’s quietly doing something transformative: proving whether EV chargers genuinely deliver the electricity drivers pay for.

From the surprising gaps in metrology regulations to the real-world consequences for CPOs and EV drivers, Craig explains why accuracy matters for cost, trust, fairness, and the long-term sustainability of the UK’s charging ecosystem. Liz and Craig also talk about EVCI Global’s grant collaboration with the National Physical Laboratory, the future of regulated accuracy testing, and their upcoming “Car-E-OK” road trip, complete with charger testing and singing.

Quote of the Episode:
“At the end of the day, it’s about fairness, making sure drivers get what they pay for, and CPOs know exactly what their chargers are delivering.” Craig Marsden

Craig Marsden Bio:
Craig Marsden is the CEO of EVCI Global, a UK company dedicated to bringing accuracy, fairness, and transparency to public EV charging. With a background in vehicle software optimisation, battery recycling, and environmental stewardship, Craig blends technical expertise with a genuine passion for fairness and sustainability. EVCI are currently working with the National Physical Laboratory to develop a national framework for EV charger accuracy, helping Charge Point Operators understand their networks and prepare for upcoming regulations. Craig is rapidly becoming one of the sector's most trusted voices on charger metrology and accountability. 

Craig Marsden Links:
Website: https://evci-global.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/craig-marsden-99b71112

Transcript

Liz Allan  [00:00:00]:
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of Electric Evolution Today. You know, every time I get somebody on these days, I get some really, really lovely people. I have definitely got a really lovely guy on today.

Liz Allan  [00:00:48]:
It's Craig Marsden, and he is the CEO of a company called EVCI Global. Craig, it's so lovely to have you here. Thanks for joining me.

Craig Marsden [00:00:59]:
Thank you very much for inviting me, and hello, listeners and watchers.

Liz Allan  [00:01:02]:
It's funny, isn't it, because we kind of met at Everything Electric a few weeks ago, and I was introduced to you by the wonderful Tracey Cairns, who is head of EV infrastructure for the Welsh government. And she told me how wonderful you were, and of course, you know, yeah, you've got to go with Tracey. Anyway, so. And we just got chatting and got on so, so well. It was just. It was just. It's been a delight to get to know you, honestly.

Craig Marsden [00:01:27]:
Tracy's absolutely fantastic, and it's been lovely getting to know you as well. But whenever people seem to meet me, it seems to be on a Friday when I'm kind of at the end of a very, very, very long and strange week. And the day that we actually finally met up together, I was absolutely exhausted, so you'd have to forgive me for that. But yeah, it's been lovely getting to know you as well, and I feel massively welcomed into the EV space, really. And it's been quite some journey to get to where we are, but, you know, we're getting on with it.

Liz Allan  [00:01:56]:
It's nice. It's, you know, the stuff that we're going to be talking about that EVCI does is so needed. And actually, until you find out what Craig does, you won't realise how needed it is. So I think that's the important thing, isn't it?

Craig Marsden [00:02:15]:
I think that what we do, people haven't had any idea whatsoever that there is a problem, or even if it is a problem. I don't think people even think about what it is that we do.

Liz Allan  [00:02:28]:
No.

Craig Marsden [00:02:29]:
Without a problem.

Liz Allan  [00:02:30]:
So I'm going to leave it on, on that point, because I want to. I basically want to go through a bit of your background, because you've done a number of different things. I wouldn't say they're all interrelated, but they do seem to be quite interrelated. Do you wanna? Do you wanna just give us A little summary of? Of. Of your past?

Craig Marsden [00:02:53]:
Yeah, sure. Everything is one way or another interrelated, generally around vehicles in the vehicle space, if you like. So apart from the woodlands that I do, I'd say everything is definitely vehicle-related. So the things that tie in the best, I suppose, with what we're doing now is I used to head a company called Carbon Software Technologies, and we used to rewrite software for vehicles so that they were a bit more efficient on fuel and better CO2 reduction, I'd say, and particulates as well. And we did the tracking system that went along with tha,t so that you could see the benefits. And the biggest contract that we had was with Carillion, which is now obviously defunct, but we reduced the emissions on 2,700 of their vehicles, and I think we ended up with about 3,300 in total. So that was quite a big contract. What else would have been abroad in all kinds of fantastic things?

Craig Marsden [00:03:52]:
We were doing battery recycling, which was great because the recycling came from working with Go Outdoors. So I was with Go Outdoors Recycling when I heard it up in action. So what I was basically, I was recycling all of Go Outdoors return stock, everything from a small compass up to the biggest of tents that they sold. And alongside that, we started to recycle batteries as well from UK airports. But sadly, COVID-19 wiped out both of those businesses overnight, so that was the end of them. And then this was like a progression from that, really. So I'm always looking for different opportunities. And our founder, Liebherr, came to me with this, and we had a good discussion over how we thought it should run.

Craig Marsden [00:04:41]:
And we. We set out last May to. To start charger testing and to see what the results were like from the charges in the wild. And it's been a very strange and enlightening journey for me because when he came to me and said, you know, EV charges aren't regulated in the same way the petrol pumps are, I couldn't believe what I was hearing, to be honest with you. And it was only when I started charging them, I was like, actually, we're on to something here, but there you go. Anyway, I've kind of let the cat out of the bag, then that wasn't my intention whatsoever. And the other thing that I do in my spare time is look after the woodlands where I live. So I'm surrounded by private woodlands.

Craig Marsden [00:05:24]:
I don't think all of my neighbours are particularly pleased about the private woodlands that we have to maintain, but it is part of where we live. So I look after those in every which way, shape, and form in my spare time, which I don't have anymore.

Liz Allan  [00:05:38]:
So you call it. So I was looking, I was looking at your LinkedIn profile, and you talk about the, the. The importance of environmental stewardship is that it links to all of the things and the kind of person that you are. I've kind of got to know you as do you know me, they're kind of really kind, thoughtful person who actually gives a crap about the planet.

Craig Marsden [00:06:06]:
I give a crap about a load of different things, and the planet's one of them. And I was an early adopter of EV, so I had my first TV back in 2013, and I was trying to do my bit for the planet back then. But when you talk about charging infrastructure back then versus today, I literally bought my. It was a BMW i3 Rex Abort, which is the one with the little engine, and I bought it in London. And once the charger had gone driving over 250 miles, I tried to charge it in a few petrol stations on the way home, and service stations had absolutely zero luck with that. So basically filling it up with petrol as much as I can't even remember what it held, it's like £10 worth of fuel maybe. So you'd fill it up, and then you'd be able to drive along with your little range extender buzzing away at 50 miles an hour on the motorway, get home, have the charger fitted to home charge the car overnight, it was fine. But I never once successfully, in all the time I had the car, never once successfully charged away from home.

Craig Marsden [00:07:05]:
And then as you moved on and things have progressed, I can't believe the difference in the charging infrastructure that we have today versus how absolutely diabolical it was back then. So I think the amount of charges and the ease at which we can charge these days is so much better than it was back then, you know, but the.

Liz Allan  [00:07:24]:
We. We talked about this before we started recording, didn't we? About, about your. So your, your founder had a conversation with the National Standards Authority of Ireland and this like you said, this is, this is where it where it kind of came from about this lack of, lack of, kind of standard standards, but it was. It's not the standards that I was thinking of, it's kind of the. Is the phrase. And I've had to write this down so I don't forget metrology standards. Is that right?

Craig Marsden [00:07:57]:
Yeah, on weights and measures. So if you go to a petrol station with your liquid fuel car, you go to a petrol pump, and the petrol pump is regulated by weights and measures. So if you have an underdelivery of fuel by anything more than 0.5%, then that fuel pump would be closed. If you have an overdelivery of anything more than 1%, then that fuel pump will be closed as well, and it would have to be recalibrated, and until it is correct, it wouldn't be opened. Whereas EV chargers don't have this. The public network EV chargers have no regulation in place to ensure accuracy. So I don't think anyone's deliberately gone out of the way not to be accurate, but there's a massive variance in accuracy in the marketplace with EV charges, and that's where we were born from. So.

Craig Marsden [00:08:53]:
Yeah, so NSAI in Ireland came to our founder, said to him, This is a time bomb waiting to happen. We need to know how to test these charges. And so on it goes. And then we took it upon ourselves to start forging forward with that, and then we've done a lot of testing since that time, and here we are.

Liz Allan  [00:09:12]:
And you now, you're now kind of putting together you, you're sort of, you've. You've got a grant, haven't you, with NPL, which is the National Physical Laboratory. And that's. And that. They are kind of metrology specialists, aren't they? Aren't you? Get me teeth in metrology specialists. I don't know why I can't speak today, but you've got a specific aim with NPL, haven't you?

Craig Marsden [00:09:39]:
Yes. So we've entered for a grant, and we're on the final leg of the grant funding application, and we've applied to do a joint project with the National Physical Laboratory, which is to put a framework agreement around for testing the accuracy of EV charges. So it's high-power EV chargers, AC chargers, vehicle-to-grid charging and EHGV charging as well. So hopefully we'll have some capability to be able to start charging megawatt testing soon. So that's. Yeah, that's in the pipeline. Fingers crossed, we get the final through the final round of funding. But it'd be fantastic to work with them.

Craig Marsden [00:10:20]:
The people we've worked with at the National Physical Laboratory have been absolutely fantastic today. Very, very collaborative, just lovely people, and they're really excited when we talk to them. It goes. It's just science, and it's just fantastic. And we can't wait to get our hands on the kit. And so on it goes. So I've got a meeting with them in a couple of weeks as well. So before the.

Craig Marsden [00:10:39]:
Before the actual groundwork goes in, if you like, we're going to go out and do a bit of charger testing, a bit like you and I are doing on Wednesday. And yeah, I can't wait. This is going to be the best.

Liz Allan  [00:10:50]:
So I'm just going to tell everybody. So Craig and I will kind of explain. Got to explain what this is. This is. But Craig and I are going out in It's Car-EV-Ok, aren't we?

Craig Marsden [00:11:05]:
I'd say it's Car. So it's Car E, as in the biggie, because it's electricity, and then. Okay. So I think it's more like Car E. Okay. Rather than. And it's. It is definitely a play on where we're aiming for carry.

Craig Marsden [00:11:17]:
Okay. Somehow. One way or another. But go on.

Liz Allan  [00:11:21]:
And I was going to say. And the aim. The aim is. So we're gonna probably meet up in Oxford, aren't we?

Craig Marsden [00:11:27]:
Somewhere around there.

Liz Allan  [00:11:29]:
He's coming all the way down from blooming Liverpool. So I didn't want him going down to the place everybody else wants to go, because that just seems ridiculous. But we're going to go around a number of different charging hubs, DC specifically and actually have a look at what they can do. So let. Let's talk about what we're. What. What do you do when we go on this? On the.

Liz Allan  [00:11:56]:
Well, because we're going to do singing as well, aren't we? Because, well, you used to be higher, didn't you? Did you use to be?

Craig Marsden [00:12:02]:
Yes, I was in a choir yet. So when I was a lot younger, before my voice broke, for a better word.

Liz Allan  [00:12:09]:
And I was in a band. So between us we can do a bit of singing. Because nobody's done any singing with you yet, because nobody's been out and done. You know, they've done out. Gone out and done the charger testing. But they've not done out. Done any singing yet, have they?

Craig Marsden [00:12:21]:
We haven't now, and I'm quite surprised at that. But you do start. What happens is you start talking about it, you start doing the charger. You look at the analysis of what we've gathered from them, and I think people are just massively interested in that more than they are singing with me.

Liz Allan  [00:12:36]:
Because I am. I am interested in both of these. So. So you. You have. And without giving all your trade secrets away, you have a way of hooking up to the charger to work out what that. Whether that charger is giving. Say, like I.

Liz Allan  [00:12:56]:
I kind of said this to you, didn't I? It feels like, you know, if you pay £10 for a charge, you're getting £ 10's worth. It's a bit like your fuel, isn't it? Your wet fuel. As you said, if you put £10 of petrol in and you get £8, that's not right, is it? So this is kind of what we're looking at. For the charging, isn't it?

Craig Marsden [00:13:15]:
Absolutely. So what we have is a. What would be described loosely as a man-in-the-middle unit. So basically, we plug our unit into the vehicle or into a load bank, and then we plug the electric vehicle charger into our unit. We then run it for a specified amount of time, and we look at the kilowatt hours that have been delivered by the charger, and we compare that to what our extremely accurate metering unit has said that we've had. And that gives us a margin of difference. Well, it's probably not the best way to put it, your margin of deviance. So it gives you the.

Craig Marsden [00:13:52]:
What the charge is giving you and what our equipment's given us, and then we compare the two and then we give you a report to tell you where you're at, which can be.

Liz Allan  [00:14:01]:
So, I'm assuming it's not just saying whether it's under. 

Craig Marsden [00:14:15]:
It's like you said about the weights and measures: it's saying whether it's over as well. So whatever that tolerance is, it's telling us what's been delivered. And sometimes that can be an over delivery, sometimes it can be an under delivery, and sometimes it can be absolutely perfect, or as close to perfect as you'd expect when you're measuring with electric. So the biggest deviances we've had, I suppose, and these aren't typical by any stretch of the imagination, but the biggest over delivery I've had was around 30%, so that's. So it paid for the 10 kilowatts of electricity, and I got 14 in a bit. And that was backed up with the state of charge in the car as well. But obviously, our metering is far more Advanced and accurate than the state of charge indicator in the vehicle. Yeah, the biggest underdelivery was where we got less electricity than we paid for. We paid for 10 kilowatts effectively, and we got 6.3 kilowatts.

Craig Marsden [00:15:03]:
So that was a 37% under delivery. It's a lot. But to be fair they're, they're just you, they're massive outliners. There's clearly something massively wrong with those charges. They're not anything like typical, where there are other ones that would say more typical. You might get 6 or 7% under delivery. There are certain networks that say they give a positive delivery all the time.

Craig Marsden [00:15:29]:
So they're always giving you a little bit more than you've paid for, which is quite nice, as a consumer. But I'd imagine if you're spending £25 million a year on your electricity bill and you're over-delivering by half a per cent all the time, that's quite a lot of money you're giving away. Cheer.

Liz Allan  [00:15:47]:
I mean, it's a bit like the food industry, isn't it? So I've kind of done some kind of auditing type work with the food industry for different food companies in the past, and it's kind of.  I used to run examinations for apprentices and stuff like that, and a lot of them came through the food industry, and some of the issues were with the tolerance on their weights and measures. So, for example, and I'm not saying these, this is one of the companies, but say like you get like a Mr Kipling's Bakewell tart that actually is kind of, even if it's only like 5 grams more that it's, that's about how much money that they're losing as an organisation, isn't it? Because actually that those weights and measures are so, so important. It's not like you know, kind of being a little home baker like I was years ago, you know and kind of sell it, selling my gluten-free cakes. It's, this is you know, a massive blooming, you know, manufacturing facility. So what I was going to say was the, for them, for kind of like the, the like somewhere like you know, kind of Mr Kipling or whatever, they had people going out and, or just going on the lines to double check all their kind of weights and measures.

Liz Allan  [00:17:05]:
Why is nobody, like you said about petrol, why has nobody actually realised that this is a thing in charging?

Craig Marsden [00:17:12]:
I have no idea. I think it was probably down to the speed at which they were rolling out the networks. Somewhere along the line, someone said it doesn't matter whether they are or they're not, and I mean from a governmental side rather than CPOs. And at the end of the da,y they just wanted as many charges in the grounds as they could possibly get as quickly as they could. And by the way, that is definitely a guess. It's not a fact in any way, shape or form.

Liz Allan  [00:17:38]:
No, don't worry.

Craig Marsden [00:17:40]:
And for some reason, it's never been followed up on, and there's a lot coming through the pipeline, through Europe, and so on, it goes. And in Germany, you've got the ice, Rick. And in California, you've got a fantastic regime over there where they're testing to 1% of what it should have been as it came off the factory. So there's definitely headway being made, but it is a very slow-moving target at this moment in time.

Liz Allan  [00:18:05]:
I'd say it's beneficial, though, isn't it, to kind of. I was just thinking then, and I scribbled it down, you know, like if every time somebody charges their vehicle, you lose a pound because you're over delivering by a pound, and you have a million, a million charges on that. Say like 1, 1, 1 charger on a hub that's just on one. It's a million pounds a year, isn't it? Just from, you know, if that's how much they're losing.

Craig Marsden [00:18:34]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:18:35]:
And that tolerance isn't managed, you know, then it's just, it's, it's madness really, isn't it? You've got to, they've got to, it's got to be changed. So this is brilliant what you're doing.

Craig Marsden [00:18:47]:
It's mind-blowing, but it's good for both parties. So there'll be CPOs that are at the end of the day leeching electricity, but there are also customers that are being under-delivered with their electricity as well. So I'd hope that it'll balance itself out and everyone will get a better deal out of it at the end of the day because we want to see the CPOs prosper, and we also want to see customers getting a fair charge and getting what they pay for.

Liz Allan  [00:19:11]:
So does this also go back? We talked about this before we started recording, didn't we? Does it go back to the manufacturer? So the manufacturer of that hardware, you know, how does it work with them? Should it be something that. It's not just the charging network's responsibility; it's the manufacturer's responsibility to make sure that it's as near as dammit when it goes out. But you can't always say that, can you?

Craig Marsden [00:19:39]:
There are a number of factors that will determine the accuracy of the unit before it's ever put in the ground. But also once it's put in the ground, the journey it's taken to get there, the weather conditions, over seven years of being sat out in bad weather and so on, it goes natural drift. There's a whole multitude of different reasons, but ultimately, no one was told in the beginning that you need to have something that's very, very accurate. That's never been a stipulation. So you can't blame the CPOs or the manufacturers, really. It's just literally what can we do moving forward? And what we can do moving forward is we can tell you which ones are accurate, and that's the tops and bottoms of it. I can't say anything about the ones around, but generally in California, for example, your EV charger, as it rolls off the production line, has to be accurate to 1%. But once it's been installed into the ground, then it's okay for it to be 2%.

Craig Marsden [00:20:38]:
And I think that's kind of fair because things can get knocked out of alignment, such as your CTS and so on. It goes down to groundworks, maybe, but who knows what all the different things are? All I know is I'm, I'm the MOT tester, if you like. I'm not the garage that's going to repair the vehicles.

Liz Allan  [00:20:56]:
You're my piano tuner. Because if I buy, if I buy a piano and it's. And it's been delivered, and it gets, because we have got a piano in the room that I'm in at the moment, you, but you kind of get it delivered. It could be tuned, couldn't it, when it leaves, when it leaves the manufacturer. But actually, once it's delivered, it could be totally out of tune, or there could be something, as you say, because of different conditions and various stuff like that. But, but why, why is it so I suppose my question about what you just said about the 2%, how is it allowed to be 2% when it's in, when it's in the ground?

Craig Marsden [00:21:31]:
I couldn't tell you the answer to that question, but it's something I'm hoping to research with the National Physical Laboratory, because what they're saying is that part of the commissioning process for every EV charger should be, there's a final test to ensure that it's accurate before people are allowed to use it. And that's kind of what we're aiming for in the network that we're putting together.

Liz Allan  [00:21:51]:
So what you've done as evci, you've got a Diamond Standard, haven't you? So you've been going around, around different charges and recognising that tolerance on. On the charger, you said that you thought I'd be bored. You know, you said this. Com, when we were. Before we started recording, you were saying, oh, this is gonna be really. It's a boring conversation, but it's not, because actually it's really important. And I'm a bit of a geek. People know me, they've been listening for a while, they know I'm a bit of a geek anyhow when it comes to stuff like this.

Liz Allan  [00:22:26]:
But it is kind of like the Diamond Standard is kind of like the way that you can prove that your charger is delivering what it's meant to be delivering. How did that come about in the first place?

Craig Marsden [00:22:43]:
Well, the Diamond Standard accreditation literally came from how to differentiate in the marketplace, which charges are accurate and which ones aren't? Because you could have a row of 10 charges, and three of them might be really accurate, and seven that mightn't be. And so on it goes, you might have a row of 10 charges, and they're all really accurate. And that depends on lots of different factors, to be fair. So what we wanted was something that, if my mum was out charging, what would my mum be looking for? And what I'd say to my mum is, look for a charger station that either has on each individual charger some sort of plaque and preferably on the totem pole outside a sign to say and a decal to say these charges are accurate, please come in, and it'll all be good. And that's where the Diamond Standard accreditation badge came from, if you like. So we decided that's something that's physical and visible. You can easily see it. There's no ambiguity.

Craig Marsden [00:23:43]:
You do know for a fact, because like I say, you could have three charges all looking identical. The first one could give you an extra 30%, which is great as a consumer, but terrible if you're a CPO. The middle one is dead accurate. So you're getting a fair charge and they're getting fairly costed, and then the last one might be under delivering by 37%, in which case the CPO's happy, I'd guess, but also not, by the way, because every CPO spoken to, not one of them have said that they want to be under delivering or over delivering. No. And hats off to them for that. So it's quite difficult to tell by looking at a charger at the end of the day if it's going to be accurate or not. And even if it's been fantastically certified in the factory to the nth degree, once it's put into the ground, it then needs to be looked at and evaluated before it's commissioned.

Liz Allan  [00:24:38]:
So, for the diamond standard, does that mean that, like you said, doing the equivalent of an MOT?

Craig Marsden [00:24:46]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan  [00:24:47]:
Does that mean that every year you have, you'd have to go round to all of the charges, or does that actually mean that every year they have to self-submit? How would it work?

Craig Marsden [00:25:00]:
Well, there's no self-submission, so you can't verify your own charge and network. The good thing about your own homework.

Liz Allan  [00:25:06]:
If you do it like that, you.

Craig Marsden [00:25:08]:
Can mark your own homework. Well, we're fully independent and we. It's all that we do. We don't do anything else; we don't check for anything else. It's just accuracy, that's all we're there for, charger speed, because it has been mentioned about charger speeds, charge curves and stuff, but it's just too big. It's like a Pandora's box, then, isn't it? Whereas for us, what we do, and it's our best practices, if you like, is all about EV charger accuracy, and that's it. I want people to feel secure, safe and happy. Secure and safe.

Craig Marsden [00:25:40]:
They're the wrong word. So I don't know, I want people to feel like they can trust the charger that they're using, that it's going to give them what they've paid for. That's it.

Liz Allan  [00:25:52]:
So when we, when we're talking about that, that kind of, you know, so you, if you're saying that once it's installed and it can't be commissioned until, until it's actually had that, that metrology test, the weights and measures test as it was, as it were then, could. Would preventative maintenance actually help moving forward? Because can. Can the charging network if they, you know, because this is, this is the thing, isn't it? You know, it's a bit like. And I use lots of different analogies, you probably noticed, like your washing machine, not everybody gets their washing machine maintained, but when it goes wrong, then you end up paying a hell of a lot of money, you know, oh, you met Motif for your car, you've got to have your car MOT to make sure it's it's road worthy but, but actually I don't see lots. And I might be. And if you, I'm sorry, if you're a charging network and I'm saying, you know, you disagree with me, you could shout at me or write in, but I don't see lots of preventative maintenance going on to stop that. Would that help what you're doing?

Craig Marsden [00:27:05]:
As in, you know, I honestly can't answer the question because we don't have enough of an interaction over enough years yet to understand what the problems are. So I think as we go along and people are changing parts on these charges and they are becoming more accurate again after that, we'll start to work out when things do need to be changed in a timely fashion, if you like, and can help with that. If something major's changed on the charger, it'd have to be recalibrated or just calibration tested again if you like. So if you change the lead, let's say your lead got cut off and you replace the lead, they'd expect it to be recalibrated after that or any major parts of it, of course.

Liz Allan  [00:27:46]:
I suppose as and when this becomes regulated, that means that as you said, the standard will be, you know, no commissioning until. Until kind of. These checks have been. These checks have been done.

Craig Marsden [00:28:03]:
Yeah. And that's the plan by the NPL, but we'll see how that rolls downhill. If you like the rates and measures. But it makes sense. You do it with anything else. In wet fuels, for example, you can't just put a pump in and say, Oh, it's mid-certified, it'll be great. It doesn't work that way.

Liz Allan  [00:28:20]:
What kind of. And what do you reckon? I mean, I know this might be a finger in the air, but what kind of timescale do you reckon for, you know, to actually put this in place? I know you're kind of going through the final stages of the grant with NPL, but, but. And you're out, and you're talking to the charging networks and what have you. But do you reckon we're talking a couple of years before they kind of add? Add something, you know, kind of put regulation in place.

Craig Marsden [00:28:48]:
It's kind of looking at 20, 27 at this moment in time, but I wouldn't like to bet on it. So at this moment in time, we're helping a number of CPOs evaluate their network so that they understand the risk that they're open to, or not open to, depending on the network as well.

Liz Allan  [00:29:05]:
Yeah, because like, you know, you, you probably, like you said, you've got, you've got a variety of different tolerances coming across, haven't you?

Craig Marsden [00:29:14]:
Correct. And at the end of the day, the NPL could turn around, or anybody else in government could turn around and say we want 5%, we want 1%, we want 25% as a margin of error. And at this moment in time, we've no idea where that's going to land with them. And all I did was I looked at the different error tolerances that you had, and I went for what I believe to be the fairest and lenient, which is 2%.

Liz Allan  [00:29:40]:
And so, okay, so diamond, the diamonds going back to the diamond standard, then what, what level of tolerance did you say with that you're looking for to get that diamond standard?

Craig Marsden [00:29:52]:
We're looking at 2% plus or minus. So and I think that's a really fair place to be. So some of the charges are coming out with the factory with an MID meter built into them. But just because you have mid-meter inside the machine doesn't necessarily mean that the full system is mid-approved. So some of them are massively accurate, and some of them just aren't massively accurate. And the most accurate ones tend to have a visible meter where you can see, so you've got the normal screen that you see. And then further down will be a small portal with a small meter in, and you can see the actual electricity that's been delivered to your vehicle there. And they tend to be massively accurate.

Craig Marsden [00:30:35]:
But there's only. I've only seen probably 10 in the United Kingdom, whereas they're far more prevalent when you're in Germany and so on.

Liz Allan  [00:30:46]:
But they're, they're the countries, they're one of the countries that are regulated then.

Craig Marsden [00:30:50]:
Yes, yeah, Germany is massively regulated in lots of different ways, not just the accuracy as well. So they're regulated. Gone.

Liz Allan  [00:30:59]:
Sorry, gone. They're regulated. What sorry?

Craig Marsden [00:31:01]:
Regulated for the billing systems and all kinds. It's absolutely watertight over there. They had a problem a number of years back, they called plug gate, where people were getting misbilled, and it was just a horrible mess, and luckily they got on top of it.

Liz Allan  [00:31:16]:
There and that's always a good thing. Right, so mid, what does MID stand for?

Craig Marsden [00:31:22]:
It's a measuring instrument directive. So whenever you measure anything, it is generally put through the mid and that would be a standard fear to apply for or to look towards.

Liz Allan  [00:31:37]:
So, okay, so it's mostly the charging networks that you'll be working with, I'm assuming. Are there any other partners that you're kind of working with or going to?

Craig Marsden [00:31:51]:
To be working with at this moment in time? We're talking to a few charger manufacturers as well, and I think they'd like us to start evaluating the charges when they've been put on the ground, as per the MPL's suggestion. I think it's just a case of getting ahead of it as much as you can or just wanting to be the best of the best, I suppose, because it's a badge of honour at the end of the day, if you're accrediting your charge of sites, it's a good thing to have and we try to make it as easy as possible for people to understand which ones are the good and their charges, I suppose.

Liz Allan  [00:32:28]:
And I was going to say to me, it feels like this is going to help, you know, as you said about your kind of ex. Early experiences with charging, you know, this is going to help drive trust, isn't it? Because, you know, you want to, you want to kind of make sure that when you, when you go to a charger that it has got that and you, you are getting what you, what you pay for.

Craig Marsden [00:32:55]:
Absolutely. It's just about fairness. At the end of the day, tops and bottoms of it, it is, this is what you paid for, and this is what you've got, plus or minus 2%. I should put a little star at the end of that, shouldn't I? But you can't just go, you can't start out with a network that hasn't had any sort of validation around it and then say all of a sudden, oh, you need to be 0.1% accurate overnight. That's just not fair. So what we're trying to do is just give the consumer a fair badge that they can look for.

Liz Allan  [00:33:28]:
So, where, how do you see the diamond standard kind of evolving over, you know, over the. Over the future. Future, you know, kind of. What, what do you, what do you want? What would you like to see over?

Craig Marsden [00:33:42]:
The next few years? Accreditation. All kinds of different things, as well as charge points. So it could be hard tyre inflators or anything. The idea is to expand us into other areas that aren't just EV charging at work, really. But right now, what we'd like to start seeing is obviously people signing up to us, our badges being here, there and everywhere. So people just get that fair charging experience, and then who knows where we'll end up. But once regulations are in place, I think that it'll be, well, people just won't have any option, they'll just have to sign up for it, whether they like it or not, really. Which is.

Craig Marsden [00:34:21]:
Isn't the best way to sign up for something, really, is it, when you're forced to do it? So we're trying to give people a halfway house where they can evaluate what they've got in the ground right now, know where the losses and the pluses are, and then we can take it from there.

Liz Allan  [00:34:36]:
I was just. I was just thinking about the conversations that I've been having lately with kind of local authorities, especially about. About their. Kind of their networks. And. Because, you know, the other thing is that, especially with local authorities having revenue sharing agreements, the charging network does a lot of, you know, installs and manages monitoring. I mean, it's kind of in their. It.

Liz Allan  [00:35:02]:
You know, it's. It's a good thing for. If it's in their best interest, isn't it, for a local authority to be able to see this, especially if you've got revenue sharing happening?

Craig Marsden [00:35:12]:
Yeah, absolutely. Plus, there's the other side, which is if they're charging their own vehicles, they want to make sure that they're spending the public purse responsibly as well.

Liz Allan  [00:35:21]:
There is that.

Craig Marsden [00:35:22]:
There are other things in the pipeline as well, for the future, but we're definitely not at this point yet. But we're talking about the carbon credits as well, that side of it. So if you've got a regulated charger that's given out, what it's supposed to be given out, we might be able to claim back for carbon credits, but that's definitely not today, so how will you explain what?

Liz Allan  [00:35:43]:
What would that?

Craig Marsden [00:35:44]:
I can't explain. That's what I said. It's not for today. That's definitely not a today project. But I can bring somebody else on to. To go into carbon credit.

Liz Allan  [00:35:52]:
No, it sounds really interesting. It really does. Who would you like to be collaborating with moving forward, then? Besides me, of course.

Craig Marsden [00:36:06]:
Well, we're on that. Well, to be fair, we're. We're talking to more CPOs than I can deal with at this moment in time, reasonably. And we've also got a couple of councils on the, on the. On the charge with us as well. So right now we're kind of running towards being overwhelmed, but we'll get through it. So. Well, I was out staff training last week, so I'm wearing literally 18 different hats, it feels like at this moment in time, and I'm trying to get more people on board for us to.

Craig Marsden [00:36:37]:
To get on with the job and all the work that we've got at hand. So it's, it's quite some undertaking at this moment in time. But I suppose, yeah, more charge point operators that we speak to the better. And at the end of the day, we are collaborative. We're not trying to make everyone out, anyone out to be good or bad or otherwise. It just literally have a chat with us. I'm not hardware, I can buy cake. What else can I do? As you'll find out on Wednesday, I like giving people plenty of coffee and cake.

Liz Allan  [00:37:07]:
Oh no, that's, I mean, that's always good. But you, yeah, you're driving all over the place, aren't you? I mean, you're kind of doing, you've been doing a lot of exhibitions lately, you know, just getting around everywhere. But I suppose the main thing is for people to be able to see what you're doing, and you know, that's what I'm really looking forward to on Wednesday, actually, looking at. Because you, you said to me one of the first times we spoke that the, the, the kit that you're using to do this, it's, it's an advanced kit, isn't it? It's not like something you're going to get from blooming a hardware store. This is kind of like proper, you know, kit to kind of make sure that what you're seeing is, is blooming accurate.

Craig Marsden [00:37:54]:
Yeah, it's a metrology standard, and it's a 0.1% accuracy level. So you're talking about extremely sensitive equipment, to say the least. And it is great, and it's, I think, just good for people to see it with their own two eyes as well. Because I can talk about figures all day long, but I think when you come out and see us actually doing it in the field, if you like. And I think it's a different kettle of fish. So that's why I wanted to get people out. And that was the whole idea of where car carry. Okay.

Craig Marsden [00:38:24]:
Came from. Carry carry. However, you say at the end of the day it's supposed to be car karaoke, but it's karaoke was to take people out who have an interest in what we do, so that they can see for themselves how we do it and the way that we do it and the differences out there in the marketplace. Obviously, everyone's under an NDA, so they can't discuss any findings on the day. But at the end of the day it's just nice to have that, you know, for sure then that there are the differences that I'm saying there are, because at the end of the day, I could be telling you absolutely anything, but when you sit with your own two eyes, there's no denying what's going on out there.

Liz Allan  [00:39:03]:
And. And that's. And that's going to be the biggest, the biggest thing for me, obviously, besides me and you having a bit of a sing song. And how many songs do you want me to actually put together?

Craig Marsden [00:39:13]:
I think we go for five for a start, because we're only doing. Originally we were going to do a big old drive and the more driving that you do, obviously there's more time for sing songs, but literally all of the sing songs that we'd had lined up, no one's got round to because they're too busy going, I can't believe that that's that, or I can believe that that's that. Or. The other day, when I was out with Warren, there was a young family at the charges trying to charge the car, and it just wasn't working for them, so we swiped the charger for them. Thanks, Paua. By the way, Laura Paua is with me. New. I've got a new car that's wonderful.

Craig Marsden [00:39:43]:
I've got a wooden one that's super limited edition. No one can have, but I've got one. So I was made up with that the other day. Anyway, we swiped it for them, and I just think it's. It's showing people that the charger networks and the people around them are just lovely people, to be fair. Anyway, so we saved them, and Warren got them to join EVA England, I believe. So that was a nice bonus.

Liz Allan  [00:40:03]:
That's Warren Phillips from EVA England. I just thought I'd point that one out.

Craig Marsden [00:40:06]:
And he's. He's a good guy. Oh, absolutely. Fantastic. And we got along like a house on fire. He had me wearing his hat to keep it warm for him when he went to the loo and stuff. So, yeah, it was great. So we had a great day out, to be fair.

Craig Marsden [00:40:19]:
And I think we'll have more days out, and we'll see.

Liz Allan  [00:40:23]:
I mean, you know, just kind of. You're meeting up with quite a lot, a lot of people and like I say, showing them what you're doing because it is one of those things that. Yeah, until I see it, I won't. I know what. I know what kind of. I know what you're doing, but I don't know what you're doing. Do you know what I mean? So it's gonna. It's gonna be so interesting to see, this really is.

Craig Marsden [00:40:50]:
Well, I was surprised by the number of people who have signed up for. So I'm pretty much solid book now. So I've got myself years' worth of people, if you like. So the idea, boom, was to have one person a month, and I'm rocketing through them. So I've got three in the bag now. So you're going to be number four. And then I'm on with Gary Comerford. I think that's the end of the week.

Craig Marsden [00:41:12]:
So I'm taking Gary out as well so that he can see what we get up to. So plenty in the pipeline. And, yeah, I'm just trying to keep people's interest piqued, really, because I, as I said in the beginning, it's not exactly the most exciting subject matter, is it?

Liz Allan  [00:41:28]:
But, you know, so I was going to actually ask you, as kind of going, you know, coming into. Coming into the business and coming into the sector, and, and, and sort of like, you know, your. The role that you're in now, you've kind of gone from a CTO, so Chief Technical Officer, to CEO. So. So what kind of leadership lessons have you kind of learned so far?

Craig Marsden [00:41:50]:
Well, I actually went from, so I was brought into this project to, yeah, evaluate the kit, but also as. As an operations director. So that was where I started out. And I think leadership-wise, I'm okay there. People tend to enjoy working with me, and I think I'm pretty straightforward to deal with. As a leader. And then it was quickly gleaned that I was doing a good job with the technology side. So I was then pushed into the CTO role.

Craig Marsden [00:42:21]:
And then our CEO left due to reasons of ill health. He's a lovely guy, but unfortunately not very well at the moment. So I was then seconded over to that role. So right now, I feel like I'm doing the operations role, the CTO role, and the CEO role. So I've got a couple of people who were working with me to try and take on more of the CTO stuff, and then I can slip a bit more into the CEO role, really. But I definitely need to have a less busy month in December. I'm absolutely up the wall. Well, I've been up the wall since August, really, and I'm gonna ease up a bit in December and start to take my marks a little bit.

Craig Marsden [00:43:04]:
I've just been pretty hard on myself, I'd say.

Liz Allan  [00:43:07]:
So, yeah, I was gonna say in.

Craig Marsden [00:43:09]:
December, and then we'll see how we go from there.

Liz Allan  [00:43:12]:
I was going to ask you what the next milestone is for you. And it's probably December, and taking a bit of time off, so you can see.

Craig Marsden [00:43:21]:
Well, yeah, because I'm looking at the diary that I've got ahead of me, and it's absolutely rammed, and that is day in, day out. Like yesterday I was having a meal with my other half and we were on. I was on messaging, email and people, and so on it goes. And I'm being told off by the team, saying, 'You need to leave this alone.' You know, you're supposed to be off and recuperating. But I'm pretty good with myself. I know when I'm starting to get overwhelmed. So that'll definitely be coming into the end of November, into December.

Craig Marsden [00:43:48]:
We'll definitely take a sit back. But we've also got to catch up with all the other things that I have to catch up on because of all the different hats that I'm wearing, as per the earlier conversation. So it'll be fine. We just need to hit the ground running in January, I think, and we'll be all right.

Liz Allan  [00:44:06]:
So let's just ask you one final question then. If you were going to leave a legacy behind, you know, in this sector, what would you want to. What legacy would you want to leave?

Craig Marsden [00:44:22]:
Accurate charging, fair charging. And. But also that people have seen me as being really fair and approachable, and not the boogeyman that some people have probably got me down as. I'm definitely not. It's not how I work. I'm very, very collaborative, and I'm just trying to get the best deal for everybody in the marketplace, really. That's the CPOs and the end users as well.

Liz Allan  [00:44:47]:
You're like a gentle giant. How tall are you? About 6 foot 5 or 6 foot 4?

Craig Marsden [00:44:52]:
No, I'm not in it. You'll find that people tell fibs about their height. Not very often. I'm bested with my height, although Mark Constable is definitely considerably taller than I. I think I'm about six, two and a half. So I'm slowly shrinking. I think people think that, yeah, there's a lot of strangers going on there.

Craig Marsden [00:45:11]:
With heights and things.

Liz Allan  [00:45:12]:
But, yeah, we're next to each other at one point when we're everything electric, and I mean, he's tall anyway, so, you know, I didn't. I. I never. It was funny until I came into the sector, into this sector. I thought I was quite tall, and then there were just all these flipping giants around me. I'm like five, eight.

Craig Marsden [00:45:31]:
Well, John Curtis and I looked like brothers from other mothers, didn't we? He just needed a beer. I had Miyoklies on that day as well, so we both looked at very similar. But it made me laugh when he said to me, What songs are you going to sing? I literally couldn't think of a single. It was like my brain went, whatever songs you're thinking about singing, doing your karaoke, okay, let's just vacuum all of those out of your head. And I'm like, I couldn't think. I couldn't have named one song to save my life that day. But as you said earlier, it was the end of a very long week, which was the end of a long month. The month which has been at the end of a long year.

Craig Marsden [00:46:05]:
So, as I say, I'm looking forward to getting some rest and relaxation over December and becoming a bit more myself again, really, because I'm definitely at the ends of my tethers, we'll say. But in a really positive way.

Liz Allan  [00:46:19]:
Good, good. And things are moving. Things are moving forward really, really well for you anyway, aren't they? So.

Craig Marsden [00:46:25]:
So, yeah, seems to be that way. Yeah. So we have a bit of quiet there, but it's. Yeah, it's definitely taken off now. I'm very happy with our progress.

Liz Allan  [00:46:33]:
Brilliant. Well, I'm. I'm really looking forward to doing this on Wednesday, and I will be sharing on LinkedIn. Our photos, whatever we end up doing, and where we end up going. So. So I'm. I am. I'm really looking forward to it.

Craig Marsden [00:46:46]:
I think we'll have more fun doing that than we've had doing this. Not that this hasn't been fun, but I think I'm definitely in my natural element out there. Testing EV chargers. There's no two ways about it. I don't know whether that sounds really sad or really great.

Liz Allan  [00:47:02]:
I think it's absolutely fine, love. It's absolutely fine, honestly. But, yeah, look, on that note, I'm just gonna say thank you for joining me. And, you know, don't. Don't ever beat yourself up for coming on your first podcast. That's absolutely, you know, you've been brilliant. So.

Craig Marsden [00:47:17]:
And I just invited myself. I'm just. Yeah, you know, me, but you're just.

Liz Allan  [00:47:23]:
The nicest, nicest guy, you know? And I know you were nervous, so. So, yeah, but you know that I don't, you know, I'm not. I'm not evil. I'm not horrible. I won't jump down your throat. And I didn't, did I? So there you go.

Craig Marsden [00:47:34]:
No, no, you're all day long, as we would say in Liverpool.

Liz Allan  [00:47:38]:
Oh, bless you.

Craig Marsden [00:47:39]:
Well, listening all day long means when I see you. Come on.

Liz Allan  [00:47:44]:
Well, look so on. On that note, I'm going to say thank you to you, thank you to Craig for joining me. I'm going to say to everybody watching and listening, thank you. Please do try, and I will put all your links, Craig, in the show notes. So please check out EVCI Global and have a look at what Craig's doing. If you if There are any CPOs so charging networks that are watching or listening then please get in contact with him because it's really, really, it's worthwhile, it's really needed this. Please share. You know everybody. We've got a LinkedIn page, a podcast page for Electric Evolution.

Liz Allan  [00:48:25]:
So please do follow us on all of the socials and stuff like that. And on that note, thank you for watching and listening, and I'll see you next time. Bye.