Episode 173: Liz Allan and Elaine Meskhi - Making EV charging fair, accessible, and fit for the future

Episode 173: Liz Allan and Elaine Meskhi - Making EV charging fair, accessible, and fit for the future

Liz Allan speaks to Elaine Meskhi, a Zero-Emission Vehicle Infrastructure Consultant at Steer, for a wide-ranging, deeply human conversation about the future of EV charging.

Elaine brings over a decade of experience spanning energy systems, transport planning, and innovation projects, including early EV trials and grid impact studies. Together, Liz and Elaine explore why EV charging strategies must start with wider transport goals, how local authorities can better navigate energy constraints, and why collaboration between transport planners, energy networks, and charge point operators is essential.

A central theme of the episode is accessibility. Elaine explains why accessible charging is not just about wheelchair access, but about recognising a wide range of needs, including neurodivergence, hidden disabilities, temporary injuries, older drivers, and people who are not confident with technology. She shares powerful insights from real-world audits and a personal story of hosting an EV driver with a prosthetic limb through a home charging-sharing scheme, highlighting where the system works and where it still falls short.

The conversation also dives into standing charges, grid capacity myths, depot charging for fleets, HGV electrification, and the policy changes needed to ensure EV charging is fair, reliable, and future-proofed.

Quote of the Episode:
“Accessibility isn’t about one group of people. It’s about recognising that at different points in our lives, all of us will have different needs, and the charging network has to work for that reality.” — Elaine Meskhi

Elaine Meskhi Bio:
Elaine Meskhi is a Zero Emission Vehicle Infrastructure Consultant at Steer, where she works across EV infrastructure strategy, accessibility, fleet electrification, and sustainable transport systems. With a background in systems engineering and over a decade of experience in energy and transport innovation, Elaine has worked on some of the UK’s earliest EV and grid impact projects. She is particularly passionate about inclusive infrastructure and ensuring the transition to electric transport works for people with diverse needs. Elaine also brings a thoughtful, evidence-led perspective to how policy, planning, and real-world delivery intersect. 

Elaine Meskhi Links:

Transcript

Liz Allan [00:00:02]:
Hi everyone, and welcome back to Electric Evolution. This week I have with me Elaine Meskhi, and she is a Zero Emission Vehicle Infrastructure consultant at Steer, and we met at the, well, I'm going to call it the EVIES daytime conference, didn't we, Elaine? Back in October. So thank you for joining me.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:00:25]:
Thank you for having me. Looking forward to the chat.

Liz Allan [00:00:28]:
Good. Well, and it's. Yeah, and we've been talking beforehand, actually. Do you know what, rather than saying the EVIES, I'm also going to say what it's also. So it's the Electric Vehicle Infrastructure and Energy Summit in London. Still, I thought I'd say the EVIES because it's easy to say and everybody knows that the EVIES are in the night, you know, is the awards thing. Anyway, there you go. But you were, I was kind of moderating a panel later on in that, that afternoon, wasn't I at the EVs, and your panel was all about accessibility. So we're going to cover that in a little while. But what I wanted to do to start off with, as I do with everybody, is talk a little bit about your background, why, why you do what you do, really and what you did before you worked at Steer, and what was that run up to doing, doing your job now.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:01:17]:
Yeah. So I did engineering at university and the reason I chose engineering is I wanted to have an impact on the world, particularly from the point of view of sustainable energy. At the time, that was my key focus, and I did systems engineering at Warwick University, and I started a graduate job in something called the Cheshire Energy Hub. So it was rotations around different energy companies in the northwest, looking at the energy sector from different perspectives and my sponsor company, EA Technology. What was interesting about them was that they did various innovation projects and there was one called on the official documentation I squared ev, which we most people in the industry know better as my Electric Avenue. And that's the first EV project that I got involved with a decade ago now. Yes. Yeah, 2015, and that was Nissan's first Nissan Leafs that were part of that trial. Since then, there was the Electric Avenue project as well.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:02:18]:
So these are all OFGEM-funded innovation projects between the distribution network operators, DNOs, consultancies and other kinds of parties in the ecosystem, and we were looking at the impact of EVs on the grid. So more than a decade ago, these questions were thought about what smart charging could do and the flexibility for customers, as well as for the grid that it could offer. And yeah, working as well with the transport planning company PTV Group, which is involved in the CHARGE project. Later on, with SP Energy Networks, I was thinking about connection tools and how people can assess what they need to know about both transport demand and electricity network capacity. So that was the start of my career, and I really loved all aspects of that. Looking at all different low-carbon technologies, the impact on the grid and how the grid can transition from being a small number of large power stations feeding energy down to the consumers to being a lot more distributed energy resources at all power levels feeding energy up and down the grid and a lot different demand from the household as well. So EVs can double the demand of the after diversity maximum demand on the grid. And that's something we learned back then and is still true.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:03:35]:
So with a 7-kilowatt charger, that's what we know and what we have to manage. We can't afford for everyone to start charging at 6 or 7 pm when people are also cooking dinner or watching TV, and all those things. So. So you know, smart charging, off-peak tariffs, those kinds of things all help with that. So that was my a little bit about my early career. I also spent some time with Senex working on all things low-carbon vehicles, innovation projects, research projects, consultancy projects, fleet transition, and then moving to steer. When was that? 2022 in the summer. And what I loved about STEER and what's great is that STEER is a much broader transport consultancy and a global organisation.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:04:18]:
So, as well as EVs and low-carbon vehicles, we look at micro-mobility. So I sit in the new mobility team. We look at micro mobility, shared mobility, we look at merging services and then beyond this new mobility team, we look at all things like transactions for road infrastructure or toll roads, we look at aviation, and you know, the transition to safety, sustainability for aviation, rail. And then we have teams, we have a development and planning team, and we have teams looking at sports and major events and kind of movement for sports and major events, and how that's changing as the audience is changing, particularly, for example, the women's football, how the audience and the travel patterns change for that. And obviously, they need to think about decarbonisation, and they are. So there are lots of different aspects to steer and that global perspective as well. So, for example, transitioning to zero-emission buses, we have Latin American offices that have had zero-emission buses for five plus years and have a lot of data on what works, what doesn't, and they're able to do the technical due diligence and feed us all that information. So, yeah, it's a great company to work for and great to have that breadth of experience. Experience and projects as well.

Liz Allan [00:05:41]:
It sounds really, really interesting. Honestly. It really. And you've kind of. Because you're involved in so many different things, you know, kind of. I was going to say. So when you, when you're helping an organization save, we just kind of look at the EV infrastructure strategy. Where do you start?

Elaine Meskhi  [00:06:02]:
Very good question. Often, an EV strategy should feed from a transport strategy. So what are they planning overall? What's their hierarchy of transport modes that they want to focus on? Do they often? A lot of local authorities want to encourage a reduction in car use. So that's something that we have to kind of incorporate into the EV strategy as well, and to think about how maybe, how the EV strategy can support some of the multimodal and modal shift objectives of the local authority? So can we plan more park and ride, so sorry, charge and ride facilities to help people go, rather than driving all the way into the city, can they charge at the kind of park and ride for the buses and get the bus into the city for the last bit, Reduce congestion and improve air quality for the city centre at least, or maybe at train stations or other locations? Can they also think about mobility hubs? So wherever they charge their vehicles, could there be some shared bikes or scooters that they can access to? Again, move between different locations rather than driving absolutely everywhere, which is what we all want, whether you're in the industry or not. Reduce congestion, improve air quality, and improve road safety as well by reducing the number of cars on the road. So these are some of the things. So, thinking about the objectives of the local authority and the kind of hierarchy in terms of transport modes as well.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:07:36]:
And then we also look at very specific local information about the demographics of the population, the housing stock as well. So what's feasible across different areas, and what's the demand likely to be in terms of priority? Which areas are likely to take up EVs first and which later, based on various factors, and then thinking about, yeah, charger types, both in terms of, you know, on street, off street and power ratings, but also, you know, is. Is there space for lamp post charges or not, based on pavement width, road width and those kinds of things? So there are some of the things that we think about when we're supposed to support with the Navy strategy, and obviously, the action plan. So how are you going to enable all these objectives and that rollout to happen? What will it mean in terms of the number of charges by quarter and by year? And what kind of partner are you looking for from a cpo? What kind of business model, operating model and so forth?

Liz Allan [00:08:47]:
Blimey, that is a lot to juggle, isn't it? Goodness me. And I was just thinking when you were saying about that kind of on-street and lamppost charging, I know that there are some local authorities that are now working as that way, they're putting collaboration in place, aren't they, between the lamppost charging, you know, charging networks and the kind of channel organisation. So you know, actually looking at. Because you'll have, you know, in many streets you'll have a lamppost that's on the pavement, on the edge, won't you? But some aren't because they're at the back. So if they work with a channel, so that the lamp post, you can have a charger, and then you can actually have a channel kind of do. Yeah, you know, so that you can put your cable through there. That to me, the innovation coming out at the moment, I always say this is just amazing. And I loved, I love to see it and you know, and I think that was, I don't know whether that was coming from a consultancy, but it was definitely an innovative local authority that was saying, well why don't we just try and put these guys together and get them working together for you know, kind of the, putting the gullies in with the, with the kind of the lamp post charging.

Liz Allan [00:10:02]:
Yeah, yeah.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:10:03]:
So we don't affect pedestrians and they can still use the road. Yeah, very important.

Liz Allan [00:10:09]:
Yeah, definitely. So when you start working with an organization like a local authority, for example, what would you say are the biggest blind spots that, that they, that you know, that you see that maybe, maybe it's misunderstanding whether it's to do with the kind of, the energy or you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be on the local authority side, can it? You know, it could be on the sort of charging network side. Where are the blind spots, and how do you identify them?

Elaine Meskhi  [00:10:43]:
That's a good question. And I think the answer is different for different local authorities because we've seen, obviously, there is the Levi Capability Fund that has supported local authorities in getting some dedicated EVI offices, but there are some local authorities where the EVI role is just added on to someone else's other full-time role.

Liz Allan [00:11:09]:
So EVI, for those of you who don't know (and there'll probably be a lot who do), it's the Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Officer, and LEVI is the local Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Fund that comes from. Comes from the government. It's taken quite a while to come out, hasn't it? Yeah, probably a couple of years, maybe even longer than that, to actually come out. And a lot of local authorities are going through procurement at the moment, and some have been through, and they're all at different stages. Some have had charges in, some haven't had charges in, and they're just going. It's kind of like, it's a bit of. Sometimes they've been thrown into it, but like you say, they kind of, if they're layering it up on their current roles, it does. It's not always easy, is it?

Elaine Meskhi  [00:11:52]:
No, no, and that's a good point. So, yeah, this is all from the Office of Zero Emission Vehicles. And yet there were two parts to the funding. One capability, or revenue funding, was to support the staff and the skills and any kind of resource requirements for delivering EVI rollouts. And the second was the capital funding for the charging infrastructure. And a lot of local authorities, in fact, it was kind of a standstill period for several months last year, and they were probably 12 months behind in the rollout due to these public procurement rules, regulations, and some questions over that. And that was quite a big blind spot for everyone, really, in the industry, from CPOs to the local authority. And even as they're taking some time to decide what was the guidance they were going to give.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:12:41]:
And obviously, there was the new Public Procurement Act brought in as well, which changed things a little bit, and it was, " Do we get it out just before it changes, or do we wait for it to come out? And that was a big barrier to a lot, to a lot of movement in this industry, which is a shame. Um, there, there were funds before that, so there has been obviously rollout before that from the public sector and there's a lot of CPOs out there that are happy to fully fund some of the rollout, particularly of the rapid charging end. So that's all positive. But I would say, yeah, the barriers have been around the procurement side that, just the time that that takes, particularly when it's co-funded with public money, the charging rollout. And then there's obviously a bit of a knowledge gap depending on who, where, and where people come from, what kind of background. The EVI, electric vehicle infrastructure. There is quite a nuanced role here, to be aware of the energy side as well as the transport side and because it is still, you know, still early adoption, to maybe think about how the demand for the infrastructure might change. So how people are charging right now is not going to be how people are going to charge in a few years' time, just because the population that we'll be charging will be later.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:14:02]:
Early adopters who have a driveway only occasionally need public infrastructure, most of them. But as we move into the kind of mass adoption, there'll be more people who are fully reliant on public infrastructure for all of their charging. And so that will affect how price sensitive they are, what their accessibility needs are and so forth. So I think that might be a bit of a gap as well that we need to watch for, and we need to make sure that we do cover the accessibility needs of all the different user segments that are going to be taking up EVs more and more. And think about the pricing and how important that is for the people who are relying on second-hand EVs and for whom that kind of outlay is significant.

Liz Allan [00:14:48]:
I was going to say the. We were talking before we started recording, didn't we, about future-proofing charging networks. But the way that energy, you know, you talked about energy to start off with, didn't you? And there's that collaboration piece and understanding piece that's needed for different organisations to understand where energy comes into the mix. Because when we're talking about putting chargers in public charging stations, there's got to be that capacity, hasn't there? Yeah, you know, and, and if you're putting five charges in and they're all lower kilowatts, then that's going to have a different impact to what 20 charges of 50kW to 150kW are going to have. Yeah, you know, like you said about not everybody boiling the kettles and you're making the tea and all of that kind of stuff. You know, at the same time, is everybody charging? You know, so, so kind of, where does that, where does that kind of level of understanding need to come from to understand that, you know, to be able to help that energy piece and just pulling it all together for everybody.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:16:03]:
Yeah, I think that's a very good question, and I guess the kind of expertise the CPO should and will and needs to have. But I think it's really important for the local authorities or whoever, maybe the landowner, procuring the charge point, particularly for kind of larger hubs or banks of charges of higher power ratings, to have an awareness of how the distribution network operates, how they plan for capacity upgrades and what that means for costs. So there was a period where I was speaking to local authorities and Others saying, oh no, it's just too expensive to connect, connect that depot. But they weren't aware that OFGEM had changed the rules on connections and that, actually, they can no longer pass through some of the upgrade costs for demand customers, that is, charge point hubs. Now, what we see is how that is actually impacted. So it means that the upfront cost in some cases isn't as high as it was. And I'll have to double-check this. I think it was 20, 23, so a few years ago now that that rule change came in.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:17:14]:
But it has resulted in high ongoing costs for CPOs. So Liz, you'll know as well as I some of the CPOs talking about how the capacity and standing charges are causing such a massive, you know, hundreds of per cent increase in the ongoing costs for certain sites. So that is something that, yeah, is a huge problem. So the costs are still coming through, but just not in that upfront capital cost. So that is an issue. So being aware that the distribution network operators have these parts price control periods set by OFGEM in which they have to show how they're forecasting EV uptake and other low carbon technology uptake, like heat pumps are going to be a big demand, moving from grass to electric and you know, solar generation, those kind of things and how they plan the upgrades of the network. So the network upgrades are planned periodically, regardless of whether you have yet to put in that connection request and then based on your connection request, they can plan any additional upgrades that they hadn't accounted for, and they have some money allocated for that. Now, part of the actual implementation problem is that there is a skills gap in engineering in particular.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:18:36]:
And so we need to encourage more people to do engineering to make sure that there is that resource in those organizations to plan, design and implement those upgrades and then the other kind of thing to be aware of so that you can work, if you're a local authority or a landowner so that you can work with the CPO and the connection providers is to think about whether you need all that capacity that you're requesting straight away or over what period and whether your local DNO can offer flexible connections, profiled connections, or you know, something in between between now and when you need that fixed connection. So these are kind of innovative offers that different DNOs have, and you can find your local distribution network through the NG Networks association. So you can put the postcode in for whatever site you're looking at and find who the local DNO is and then have that conversation of actually it's a depot and most of the charges are going to be overnight. So can you do something for me? Because I'm not going to impact your peak demand period in that area, which is in the evening. I won't be charging them for sure. So, can you offer something different for me? So just that awareness, if you want to do some of the pre-work before you go out to procurement, will help as well and may offer new solutions that are cheaper and better.

Liz Allan [00:20:04]:
I like what you're saying about the DNOS because I don't think enough people. I don't think even I, you know, I don't understand, or you know, I get into the nitty gritty of, of kind of the energy. Energy side of things. And like you said, you know, you can always, you said to me before, didn't you? You can always get a connection. It is just time and cost, you know, so this kind of misconception of people saying that the grid. Grid isn't capable.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:20:32]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:20:33]:
There's already an analysis going on, isn't there? There's been an analysis because it would be ridiculous if the DNOS and the energy sector weren't looking and analysing forward, especially because you know, they know more people are going to move to electrification, no matter what, as you said about you know, kind of heat pump and for us. So we're, we're kind of, we've not got any gas anymore. We're kind of all, you know, electric and we've got a heat pump and solar panels and battery and car EV and stuff like that, you know, so, so but it wasn't, it wasn't a difficult thing we for, for us as consumers trying to understand what the DNO needed. We kind of had most of that covered especially for when we talk about the heat pump because the heat pump was the, the thing that took, you know, kind of took most of the, the power but actually the, you know, the kind of, the, the kind of the, the heat pump company did most of that. It was just that there was, I think, a survey or a question that came through to us rather than to the heat pump company. And my husband and I were like, well, I don't know what this is. So you know, but they were able to manage that, and it was, I think, just that facilitation because different DNOS ask different questions.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:21:53]:
Yeah, yeah.

Liz Allan [00:21:54]:
So I suppose it's kind of like getting the DNO to put it in consumer speak as well, isn't it? You know.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:22:01]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:22:01]:
So you can understand it, but it wasn't a horrendous piece of work. It was just that they had to make sure that what was going on with the heat pump and everything, did we have enough power? Could they manage that? And then it was, it was just a quick check, and it was sorted. So.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:22:17]:
So, yeah, yeah, it's a fascinating world and changing all the time as well. So, yeah, there are constant consultations and working groups to think about how we can do this better from Ofgem, which is the regulator for the electricity networks and the gas networks. So, yeah, you know, there'll be changes in how, for example, charges for the electricity costs are delivered. Yeah. What's accepted in these price reviews and what they have to present in their business plans for the next five-year period. Period. So it's hard to keep on top of everything.

Liz Allan [00:22:54]:
But I was gonna, I was gonna say, just going back to what you were saying about standing charges, and I know for all of the charging networks who've got public charging, I mean, this is going to make you go great. If you're not grey already, it's going to make you go grey, isn't it? Because haven't they gone up by something like 600% in a very few years, you know?

Elaine Meskhi  [00:23:16]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:23:16]:
Have you got any thoughts on the reason is why? What are the reasons for that? I mean, how did anybody think that putting up costs like that was sustainable?

Elaine Meskhi  [00:23:29]:
Yeah, so it's, it's quite a difficult thing. So initially it was that, you know, you would have heard that to connect this site is going to be millions of pounds, which meant that you'd have these black spots. So across the country, where we're not connected because it's too expensive. Since that, I believe it was called the targeted charge review that came into force; they couldn't pass on the cost of the upgrade to the person connecting. That was socialised across everyone. But obviously, that money doesn't. It needs to come from somewhere, and that was then brought through in those bills for the site. So I believe that percentage is different based on where you are.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:24:16]:
So it might not be that high in certain locations, but I think it's just a matter of we need to operate, maintain the network, make sure there's no power cuts that particularly with more extreme weather events that we have, the engineers, they were able to go out and fix any kind of lines that come down, particularly likely, you know, overhead lines or things that, that need fixing as to maintain connections and reliability. One thing I would say that I find fascinating, we don't touch on is really how reliable our electricity supply is in this country. I've been to a few other countries where it's not, and we just take it for granted that when you flick the switch, the lights will come on. But there's a lot that goes on to make that happen. And obviously, there are some power cuts occasionally, particularly in rural areas, but it's actually quite rare, and it's going to be harder to maintain that reliability as we get more extreme weather and as the network assets age. So that's something else to think about, and unfortunately, that is part of the reason why the costs are going up. And then there's a whole other piece on the wholesale electricity prices, which are still 66 above what they were pre Russia's invasion of Ukraine. So, pre-energy crisis, that was caused by that, and some of the highest in Europe as well.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:25:40]:
So I think there's again some review and consultation happening about what can be done about that, because that is one of the other significant causes of the high prices and particularly the disparity between public charging and private charging, because private charging, we have the price cap, there's no price cap on wholesale electricity for public. And we know other things, like the VAT, are different. So 5% at home, 20% in. In public. We did a study, and we looked at three other European countries. In all three European countries, the public and private VAT was the same on electricity. It was slightly higher than the 5% that we've got here. It's closer to the.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:26:20]:
To the higher end. But you know, that shows that the gap was closer between public and private. And yeah, there are some other charges on charge point operated CPOs like the Climate change levy, they have to pay that tax for electricity, even though they are supporting the transition to. So it's a bit counterintuitive why. And there's lots of charge, the UK did a great white paper to show the impact of that, and to campaign or lobby for the fact that they shouldn't need to pay that. So yeah, there are various things in the breakdown of the costs of charging that can be looked at that rely on policy, government policy and regulation to change that to make it a bit more fair and equal between those completely reliant on public infrastructure and those that can charge at home.

Liz Allan [00:27:13]:
So yeah, I was going to ask you as well about. So I know that Greg Jackson, the CEO of Octopus Energy, has been talking for some time about decoupling gas and electricity, the prices of gas and electricity, because they're at the moment, they're. They're coupled. And I don't know how that looks throughout Europe or the rest of the world or whatever, but. What. Have you got any thoughts, any thoughts on that? Will it do anything to the price that we're currently paying for electricity?

Elaine Meskhi  [00:27:52]:
Yes, it would, but I don't feel I have the expertise because electricity pricing is such a difficult topic, and I've tried to get a bit closer to it. Cornwall Insight are a great organisation to kind of get some. Some expert insight into that topic. So, yeah, energy pricing is not something that I'm close to. It would definitely have an impact, but I think what we have to be careful of is the unintended consequences of something like that, so. And things like dynamic pricing that can lower the cost in certain periods, but then greatly increase the cost in others. So that's what I'm not sure of. And, yeah, I'd have to rely on someone else to kind of give a more expert view on that.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:28:36]:
But, yes, it definitely needs to change because it shouldn't be as expensive as it is. We have a lot more renewable energy, wind energy, being generated in the UK every year, every month. So we need to be able to capitalise on that cheaper energy than wholesale prices across.

Liz Allan [00:28:55]:
Because it absolutely gobsmacks me in a way that. And I know this from working with kind of high trans earlier on this year, kind of like the Highlands. They're kind of like the Highlands Transport Authority, and they. They kind of work on behalf of a number of the Highland Councils up in the wilds of Scotland. So we're talking. Talking, you know, really, really far up the country. And I think, if I'm right, they pay probably the highest energy prices, even though they've got the most wind turbines up there. And it just seems ridiculous because I think there's some rule or law that says.

Liz Allan [00:29:32]:
Says that they've got to export quite, you know, a large. A large proportion of what the energies, you know, the energy that's made. And it just. It just feels like this, kind of, like this disparity and we're.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:29:44]:
We're not.

Liz Allan [00:29:45]:
We talk about inclusivity. It's not really inclusive, is it?

Elaine Meskhi  [00:29:49]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think one thing I read about that locational pricing aspect is if that was removed, then, yes, it'd be a lot cheaper in Scotland, but it'd be very expensive in the cities. Aware, obviously, they're net importers. So I think, yeah, that's again, the unintended consequence of potential. Yeah, it's very difficult.

Liz Allan [00:30:10]:
Yeah, yeah. It is really a hard one, I suppose. And if we kind of talk about policy, because you've been quite close to sort of the policy side of certain aspects, what are the main policy elements that are changing things at the. At the moment in the work that you're doing, or what would you like to see policy changes to kind of introduce or expand on, even.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:30:37]:
Yeah, so I think definitely something around the energy sector or quite a few things that need to happen in the energy sector, and hopefully, you know, there's been campaigns ongoing for some time on some of those aspects, so we might see some shift there. Accessibility. There was some great news, like last week, about that. The. Obviously, the PAS standard is being updated, but the government is also going to mandate and support local authorities and others to ensure that they are implemented as far as possible, so that there's some positive movement there in accessibility. And there was one more thing that's escaped out of my head that I'll come back to, I think. Oh, yes. Heavy goods vehicles.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:31:24]:
Yes. So we have been involved in evaluating the Land and Maritime Trust's program of innovation projects, and my colleague and I have been involved in the Zhid, which is a zero-emission HGV goods and infrastructure demonstrator. So there are four projects. It's a long one. Yeah, there are four projects, and there are about, off the top of my head, 30 to 40 partners involved across those four projects, which covers electric and hydrogen vehicles and infrastructure. And the thing that was coming out is that that project's great, but there needs to be a little bit more support and guidance to give people the company's assurance that this is the way forward, that they will have some more support, that there's something a bit more kind of staged, as I don't think anybody's calling for a zev mandate for HGVs, but some other kind of support and what that should look like needs to be kind of decided as a group of, you know, companies from different parts of the ecosystem having a discussion and a consultation on. Yeah, how can we help that sector to transition? In terms of emissions, there's a small number of vehicles that are responsible for a large number of emissions. So actually each vehicle that we can help transition in that space will have a big impact, and it'll be great to have the UK at the forefront there in terms of.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:32:54]:
In the industry of zero-emission HGVs and infrastructure. And that ZEEHID program is definitely supporting that. So it'd be great to capitalise that and make that a market for us.

Liz Allan [00:33:04]:
For export, yeah, I was, I was going to say, do you see kind of like the depot charging side of ZHID, or you know, kind of electrification of massive big vehicles, like you know, EHGVs, is that? And I know you can't necessarily say it's one size fits all, but do you see depot charging being a big part of it, or does it, like I'm saying, is it kind of public hubs, shared infrastructure depot charging? Is it, is it the lot, or do you think that it depends on the use case for each organisation?

Elaine Meskhi  [00:33:46]:
I think probably the latter. I think depot charging is definitely the first step that a lot of organisations are taking. It's easier than working out the public infrastructure. And the easiest segment to transition is the back-to-base type vehicle. So that lends itself to depot-based charging. And then the kind of next step 1B is sharing those depots with other smaller entities or others that are just starting their transition so they can get a feel for what it is to drive those electric vehicles, for example. So I think depot is definitely a key part, but when we think about for example, international freight, then I think that public infrastructure is going to be very important as well. And this is where the more strategic upgrades of the electricity network are really key along the motorway service areas.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:34:42]:
And unfortunately, the Rapid Charge fund didn't quite achieve what it set out to. So there needs to be a bit more work done, I believe, in that area. I'm sure you have this disclaimer at the beginning of your podcast, but obviously, these views are all my own. This is my experience. But yeah, I think definitely a mix of solutions for the different segments and the different types of operations that they have, the different kinds of routes that they cover. But depots is a key one.

Liz Allan [00:35:11]:
Yeah, yeah, I was. Because I was going to say, if you've got vans that come back, always come back at the end of the day, like Royal Mail, that's out all day, kind of delivering or DPD or somewhere like that. They've got kind of transits or whatever and then, but then you've got other ones that need to charge in the middle of the day. It's kind of utilising that, isn't it? It's making sure that you do, you can open up to those organisations that need it to be kind of like, oh well, you know, my, my guys are only local, so they'll only, they'll only kind of need to charge at the end of the day, so return to depot, then plug in. But then there are others from different organisations that just need to pop in. And it's, it's kind of, I like this level of sort of open-mindedness and saying, you know, recognising that there are different organisations that want to share your network, it's just giving them, giving people the ability to be able to do that, isn't it? And working, it's that collaboration piece again, isn't it?

Elaine Meskhi  [00:36:13]:
Definitely, and I think so. Bookability and kind of view of the availability of the chargers, and before that, even planning, kind of when does this fleet need charging, and when does fleet B need charging, and can the two work together? So those that do have charges and depots that want to share them obviously need to make sure that they can meet their own needs first. And yes, then the nice-to-have would be to improve the utilisation of those charges and help others to transition. But some of the challenges around the collaboration, there's definitely lots of conversation going on, but it's around the security aspect. If you're letting a new fleet in. What people are hearing is that if I'm stopping for a charge, even for 15 minutes or half an hour, I would really like to have access to a toilet or welfare somewhere to have a cup of tea. That means allowing someone access into your building who's not your employee. And obviously, you know, there are things that can be managed, but there needs to be some kind of security measures addressed in that regard.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:37:25]:
And payments, how do you sort out the payments? Payment from a different company, particularly if it was just your own, you might not need any kind of payment logging. But once you get someone else coming in, you need to think about how that payment's going to be logged and processed. So there are just some questions that can be resolved, and I'm sure will be, but to enable that collaboration to come to fruition.

Liz Allan [00:37:46]:
But yeah, and I suppose it's the looking at the offset of how much it's going to cost you to, to integrate those kind of facilities versus your return on investment overall, isn't it?

Elaine Meskhi  [00:37:58]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Working out what the correct price point is. And yeah.

Liz Allan [00:38:03]:
Okay. Just going back a minute to accessibility. Well, there are a couple of things I wanted to talk about because, like I say, that's the conversation I heard, I heard you talking about in the first place. But there's also one thing that's a personal thing of yours as well, isn't it? That I want to talk about. But if we talk about the first one. So if you look at accessibility needs in, in general for, for kind of public on street charging hubs, etc. Etc. What are, what are the things that people, whether they're working for a charging network, whether they're working for a local authority or any other stakeholders or landowners or people like that.

Liz Allan [00:38:47]:
What, what kind of the most important aspects that they need to think of with regards to the PAs, accessibility standards changing and kind of mandates coming in. And, you know, because there are, there are certain situations where. And I've seen something recently, this weekend, which was a supposed accident accessible bay that's kind of got the. It's got all the chevrons across it for disabled charging. But it was a disabled bay that had charging added to it, and kind of. There was somebody saying it. Does that actually mean that is it a charging space or is it a disabled charging space? Because there was, there were no, there was no visibility on kind of, you know, there were no, There was no signage. So what, what is it, what is it that.

Liz Allan [00:39:42]:
That people need to kind of. Yeah, put. What's the top important, you know, most important thing they need to be doing?

Elaine Meskhi  [00:39:50]:
That's a great question. And I think maybe part of the problem or the challenge is that there's not necessarily one important thing because there's a myriad of different impairments and disability needs. Some visible, some invisible. Probably the first image that people get in their head is someone in a wheelchair, and those are quite easy to think about, like dropped kerbs. And level access to the charge point is crucial. So you can have an accessible charge point, but if it's not installed in the right way, like a disabled bay can be potentially disabled without having that drop curb, because you don't need to access that curb, maybe because you're going somewhere else. But if there's a charge point there, you do need to access that charge point, and the height of the screen needs to be in the right place as well, and those kinds of things. But there are things like, yeah, invisible disabilities or impairments that affect what you need to see in terms of clear instructions and, yeah, the visual elements of screens.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:41:00]:
I saw an interesting post about someone saying that, if it's all touchscreen, as someone who cannot see, I need some audio instructions or guidance to help me access anything. So it's, it's not helpful to have completely just touch screens. Other things include that some people might need access to a toilet or other facilities to stop for that period of time, or shelter can be helpful. And then, for light commercial vehicles (i.e., vans), accessibility might mean that, based on their shift patterns, they need access to that charger overnight. And if the car park's closed, it doesn't matter how accessible the charging bay is; they can't access it. So if the car park is closed or there's a height barrier on there, that's something that's obviously not an aspect of the charge point itself, but is of the site. So how do we even get that information to the users? And I think the most important thing we found through our project was that users want to be able to get information about chargers based on their own needs.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:42:09]:
So, to filter the ChargePoint data based on their access needs. Because it's the same for those users on other types of sites, whether that's shops or, I don't know, museums or something, they will see, oh, actually special educational needs and therefore I want, I don't know, a quieter time to access that, that facility or wheelchair access or, you know, other things. So being able to filter that information based on what they need is really important. So, probably information would be a really great thing because there is. The charging network is growing every day, and perhaps this is a bit controversial. We don't need 100% of the charges to be fully accessible. It's very hard to get all on street charges to be accessible because of space constraints. There's often nothing you can do to make the road or the pavement wider.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:42:58]:
So it's just about giving people access to the information that will help them to plan their journey. Because, as you and I know, as EV drivers, you don't have to charge at this point. You could charge here or here, as long as you know that that's going to be a reliable, accessible charge point to you and meet your needs. There's always kind of flexibility, and you can charge either slightly sooner or slightly later than maybe what you originally thought, as long as you know and have that information. And there's a clear kind of. From our audits of charge points across Greater London, some of the things that we can see are easy to retrofit is actually the signage and the instructions. So that's for when you get to the site. I was previously talking more about the kind of online information about ChargePoint.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:43:49]:
So I think there are some quick wins that can be done on the existing infrastructure. And then I think probably, probably to answer your original question for kind of future rollout, it is probably thinking about the dimensions, the access, because they're the things that you can't change afterwards. So you always need. So, thinking about wheelchair accessible vehicles and Vans, you need to meet those needs somehow. So making sure you have a proportion in each area that is accessible to those who think would be a key thing.

Liz Allan [00:44:21]:
And I was going to say, just going back to what you said about the disabilities that you can't see, for example, somebody who's neurodivergent. I'm neurodivergent, if I can say that word, you know, and for me or somebody, you know, I was diagnosed with adhd. Other people have, you know, had an autism diagnosis, dyslexia, all of that kind of stuff that, that actually simple instructions that make sense to people don't just leave it to everybody to try and work it out themselves because actually for somebody who's neurodivergent especially, it just adds to the stress, you know. You, you want to make things as simple as possible because, you know, it might be a situation that somebody gets out of a car, they've got, you know, kind of autism where it affects their anxiety, you know, and, and actually doing something different like that out of a routine, you know, that makes it hard.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:45:25]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:45:25]:
So. So kind of, I really would love to see levels of standardization for charging so that, you know, when you rock up to a charger, I know it's not always possible, but. But this is the same routine, you do the same, you know, that's. I'm pretty good at sussing out things like that, but sometimes even for me, it just drives me a bit mad when there's no kind of instructions, and I'm like, my brain's going in 10 different directions and saying where does it actually say how I do this?

Elaine Meskhi  [00:45:55]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Liz Allan [00:45:56]:
You know, please, please keep it visual for people and keep it simple because that makes them, that makes a massive difference. I was going to go back to what we would. You and I talked about before we started recording, and this is the accessibility side. Your Co-Charger experience. Let's just talk about that because I think that is really, really highlights the fact that there's potential for, for kind of the, the chart, you know, charge, sharing, home, charging. Yeah, yeah, Just, just explain what you said to me.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:46:32]:
Yeah. And actually, I think I missed this detail when we spoke earlier. So I've had a lovely experience I would like to talk about. I've been a host on Cocharger for about a year since we've had our charger, and it's the first time somebody's reached out to ask for a charge. So I was really keen to help, particularly with the research projects. I'M involved with at work and just on a personal level to find out, you know, what's their story, how did they get ev, why are they. They need a Co-Charger? And it took a while to, to find a time that we could both meet to explain the charger and things. But they, they came and this person, lovely gentleman called Ben had discovered he had a prosthetic leg and he also mentioned in our conversation that he was dyslexic as well.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:47:18]:
And actually, that's a really important element, the third element, really important because it's not. There's not an official kind of diagnosis for this, but he referred to himself as not tech savvy and the apps and all those kinds of things. You know, there's nothing formal about not being tech savvy, it's just how people experience, you know, apps or phones. He had a very basic phone because he didn't like phones very much. And he, he was fortunate to have a partner with whom he'd been travelling to access public infrastructure. But there were issues in terms of. So he'd bought his vehicle secondhand, a 2021 Renault Zoe on finance. And it was a stretch for him to do that.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:48:06]:
So he wanted to limit how much he spent on charging until his home charger was installed. And in the city centre, where he did manage to charge, he was having to pay. Pay about 8 pounds for parking as well as charging. And he's only really there to charge. He didn't really need to be there. So it was quite a lot for him to pay the parking and for charging in a number of other locations he went that they didn't work. He had to move between a few charges, and it was maybe slightly anxiety-inducing to be in that situation. When it's a new car, you don't know what to do.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:48:40]:
He had his AA membership, so he had that lean back on if you completely run out of juice. But yes, so that was really interesting, how he came to get an ev. He, he was one of those. Maybe a bit more confident in that he thought he'd work it out, the charging thing, he'll get the car, and he'll work it out. And what they found through their first couple of weeks of having the event, they loved the experience so much that they were perhaps using it more than they anticipated having to charge for it. But yeah, it was great that I, I felt comfortable to invite him in to have a coffee and to watch some TV while he was waiting for his car to charge. But you know, these are all very personal things, and some others might not have felt comfortable. So yeah, we just need charging to be reliable, accessible and to think about these different needs that aren't as apparent.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:49:39]:
Yeah, like the tech-savvy thing and the apps and those things. This Renault Zoe also didn't have a rapid-charging port, so he could only charge at up to 22 kilowatts. So that was another limitation potentially. But it was good for their run around, and he really loved it. It was, yeah, great to meet another EV driver.

Liz Allan [00:50:01]:
I just, I think the, this story is just twofold. I think it's fantastic that you're, you're doing this and the, and just the fact that you've got somebody who's got limited mobility who can, who can actually utilize your home charger, that in itself is, is amazing. So blooming good on you. You know, well done, you. Because I think that's, that is so, so important. But just the overall recognition of the things that people need, you know, and I've said before on a recent podcast, you know, at some point we're all going to be a bunch of old duffers, aren't we? I'm probably going to be there quicker than you are, darling. But you know, at some point we're all going to have a level of mobility challenges, you know, so we've got to think ahead of that. We can't.

Liz Allan [00:50:54]:
If you're a twin, a twin in your 20s now, and you're working, working on projects like this. I'm not saying you are because, you know, but you know, people in general are coming into, you have to think ahead.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:51:07]:
Yeah.

Liz Allan [00:51:07]:
Because, you know, move, moving forwards. We've got to have future-proofed networks, haven't we? You know, we've got to make sure that everything, everything is kind of future-proofed and is accessible and inclusive for as many people as possible.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:51:23]:
Yeah. And Liz, just one more thing I would say: accessibility needs can be transient as well. So it might be that you've had an operation, that you have an injury, new mothers who have to kind of go around with a, a pram, sorry, a car seat and lift that out or lift a baby out and in. So we have to think about the population not as one homogeneous or, you know, two or three homogeneous pieces, but as all these different needs and how they come into play at different times, and what they might need to help them feel secure. And this is going to be critical infrastructure. So we need to make it accessible, reliable, and everything.

Liz Allan [00:52:01]:
Absolutely. And it does take a little bit of time to get to critical infrastructure because if you look at the mobile phone industry, that took years, you know, but it will, and it needs to, it needs to have all these things thought of, you know, but. Right, so I'm going to ask you one final question then. So is there, is there something that you would like to leave the viewers and listeners with that is kind of, you know, whether it's about you, whether it's about stir or, you know, kind of any of the, any of the things that you've been doing. Is there, is there anything in future that you're excited, excited about, for example?

Elaine Meskhi  [00:52:38]:
Oh, good question. I am excited about the fact that we will hopefully start to come together a bit more and think about the different aspects of sustainable transport and sustainable cities. And that's something Styr does quite well, to think about active travel alongside, you know, transition to like electric vehicles, to think about how policy impacts all those things and to think about how financing. So we have part of the business that is involved with structuring the financing of these different deals and transactions, and so that all these pieces come together and create a solution that meets everyone's needs and moves us all forward, and it's sustainable as well. So I used to be a lot more thinking just about climate change and just about emissions, but actually, if it's not financially sustainable, then it can't be environmentally sustainable either. So thinking about all those different aspects and all the different people, their different needs, is really important, and I'm looking forward to being more collaborative across different parts of the industry and the ecosystem as well.

Liz Allan [00:53:53]:
Love it. Love it. It's been really, really interesting talking to you, Elaine. It's fantastic. I really, really appreciate your time, and I know that everybody will have taken so much from this conversation. So thank you, thank you ever so much.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:54:10]:
Yeah, thanks, Liz.

Liz Allan [00:54:13]:
So, to everybody watching, listening, I'm going to say, as I usually do, please like and subscribe, subscribe and share and do all those wonderful things. Check out our podcast page on LinkedIn, the Electric Evolution podcast page, and just let's get that this conversation. Moving about collaboration and making sure that of all the, all the things that everybody can be doing to help. On that note, I'm going to say thanks to Elaine for joining me and thanks to everybody for watching and listening, and I'll see you next time.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:54:43]:
Bye.

Liz Allan [00:54:44]:
Bye.

Elaine Meskhi  [00:54:44]:
Bye.