The Advocates for Afghan Women, Sola Mahfouz & Malaina Kapoor

Together, Sola Mahfouz and Malaina Kapoor share the harrowing story of Sola's journey from Afghanistan. Sola faced severe restrictions on women's education under the Taliban. Despite these challenges, she pursued self-education, learning English and advanced subjects like algebra and physics through online resources like Khan Academy. Sola's determination led her to cross Pakistan's dangerous border to take the SAT, securing a spot at Arizona State University. Her journey highlights the importance of education and resilience. Malaina Kapoor and Sola tell her story in their book Defiant Dreams. Malaina emphasizes the need for awareness and support for Afghan women, especially since the Taliban's resurgence in 2021, which has imposed severe restrictions on women's rights. Learn from Sola's journey and choose which action will help you pursue your own courageous path.

Action Principles

Pick one to do this week:

1. Create a positive, calm environment. When things are stressful or chaotic, be the person to bring positive energy to the situation. ACTION: Create a list of positive phrases or actions to use during stressful or chaotic moments.

2. Improve communication skills. Communication is a powerful tool, whether it's learning the language of a new country you moved to or expanding your vocabulary. ACTION: Take a class to learn a new language or improve your native language by expanding your vocabulary.

3. Invest in your education. Grow your career by learning new skills. Numerous online options, like LinkedIn Learning, are available. ACTION: Take a course based on a skill you're interested in learning.

4. Explore other cultures. Enrich your life by learning about other countries and cultures around the world. ACTION: Read an educational book about a country you're interested in.

Guest Resources

Learn more about Sola's story at DefiantDreams.com. You can also follow both Sola Mahfouz and Malaina Kapoor on LinkedIn.

Suggested LinkedIn Learning Course

Time Management Fundamentals

Dave Crenshaw develops productive leaders in Fortune 500 companies, universities, and organizations of every size. He has appeared in Time magazine, USA Today, FastCompany, and the BBC News. His courses on LinkedIn Learning have been viewed tens of millions of times. His five books have been published in eight languages, the most popular of which is The Myth of Multitasking—a time management bestseller. As an author, speaker, and online instructor, Dave has transformed the lives and careers of hundreds of thousands around the world. DaveCrenshaw.com

Transcript

Malaina Kapoor: 0:00

Yes, the SAT wasn't offered in Afghanistan. It was only in Pakistan, and so she crossed one of the world's most dangerous borders. She crossed into Pakistan and managed to take the last spot in an SAT administration there and take the exam. I was

Dave Crenshaw: 0:15

just gonna say hearing that story, I'm never going to allow my children to complain about taking one of those tests again in high school. In this episode, you'll get to know sola Mahfouz and Malena Kapoor, the advocates for Afghan women, and you'll hear them tell the story of how sola risked everything for education and was able to escape a brutal regime in Afghanistan. I'm Dave Crenshaw, and this is my success Show. Welcome back, friends, to the Dave Crenshaw Success Show. This is where I speak to some of the most successful people I've met in my life's journey. And I'm on a mission to find universal principles of success that can help you and my family succeed. In case, it's your first time here and you're not familiar. Not familiar with me. I'm a best selling author. I speak around the world of Fortune 500 companies, and I've taught millions of people how to be successful through my online courses, especially on LinkedIn. Learning with this show, I wanted to create something a little different, a legacy project, primarily to help my kids succeed. I was concerned about helping them learn things that could help them no matter what career path they took, and I thought you'd enjoy learning along with them. And I interview people who have achieved success in a variety of ways and have multifaceted success in their life, not just in their career. And Today's guests are truly remarkable and an example of how you can find success even in the most difficult circumstances. So as you listen to today's episode, look for something you can do, an action you can take this week to make my guest success story a part of your success story. Sola Mahfouz and Malena Kapoor co authored the book defiant dreams, which tells the story of solar's courageous escape from Afghanistan through education. Sola was born in Afghanistan and immigrated to the US in 2016 to attend college. She is currently a quantum computing researcher at Tufts University, Quantum Information Group. And Milena is a writer from Redwood City, California, and she currently attends Stanford University. She's received national awards for her poetry, personal essays and short stories. Sola and Malena, welcome to the show.

Unknown: 2:41

Thank you so much for having us.

Dave Crenshaw: 2:43

Yeah, I'm really interested in this story because it is different than some of the interviews that I've done, and what I love about it is my goal is to show how someone can be successful with a wide type of background, a variety of different careers and experiences. And wow, your experience sola is very, very compelling, and I think shows that you can be successful in spite of perhaps the worst adversity that one can experience. So first of all, where are you both located? Today?

Unknown: 3:18

We're both in Stanford, California. Today.

Dave Crenshaw: 3:21

Great. What a beautiful part of the country. I really love the bay area out there. All right. So let's just dive right into this. Sola, talk to us a little bit about what your life was like when you were young, when you were first growing up. That was in Afghanistan, correct? Yeah.

Unknown: 3:39

So I was born in 1996 that's the time when Taliban, my first time, came into power. And at that time to, you know, just like now, women were not allowed to go to school and but luckily, you know, I was a kid, and so I was shielded by the darkness outside. And then in 2001 the US and its ally, topple the Taliban and prop up the new government, and the school reopened for girls, and I start going to school. And so that was the like, the first kind of decade of my childhood. And

Dave Crenshaw: 4:17

when going to school, there is school just for girls, was it separated from the boys? Yeah, it

Unknown: 4:23

was like half time for boys and half time for girls. But, you know, it was just Afghanistan went through such a civil war and dark times of the Taliban and the school. It wasn't like an intellectually thriving environment, and I hate it. I was just gonna say in the book, it starts and finishes with the story of the Taliban, which is a group that's back in power now, but first came to power in the mid 90s in Afghanistan. Their home base, essentially, was the city where sola grew up in Kandahar, Afghanistan, and. And so those early years, even though, at the time, she was such a young child, she wasn't really able to process what was going on around her, it was characterized by this really brutal regime that was trying to impose a version of extremist Law and Order on a country that had spent decades embroiled in wars and civil war. And so that meant things like executions in soccer stadiums. It meant that girls weren't allowed to go to school. It meant that things like television or photographs or even dolls were banned and punishable with violence. But you know, as solo mentioned, and as we write about in the book, there's this real contrast between someone becoming, growing into themselves. Being a young child, we tell stories in the book about her playing with her sisters, going outside in that thick heat to play in the fountain, but at the same time, being shaped very quickly by that extreme environment around her, which, as she mentioned, starts to change, but but was really defining period.

Dave Crenshaw: 6:02

One thing that I've learned as a parent and also as I reflect back on what it was like for me, there's a little bit of healthy blindness that children have where they're kind of not fully comprehending the gravity of everything that's happening around them. Was it like that for you, or were there instances from when you were young, where you realized, wait a minute, this is this is bad, this is wrong. We are being oppressed.

Unknown: 6:30

No, I don't think there was. It's only now that I think about it, because I think there is. I think childhood in itself, I think it does distance you from the world. And so for me, it's almost like a parallel world like this is how my country is going, but this is my experience, because I am a child, and because you're surrounded by the love of your parents, but the siblings and everything. So I think it does create a distance, which I think is, in some sense, it's great thing to be a child, but then also you feel like you're deceived in some sense, because you're like, Oh, this is my experience, this is my memories, and then this was the reality. And how does that compare? Yeah, I think a really surprising story for me that we write about in the book. You know, because I grew up in the United States, it's obviously very different. But we write about how when sola was a young child, her father had promised to take her out for a Coca Cola, and he was going to take her on the street and buy her that treat. But then suddenly she started hearing gunfire outside, and so instead of being scared, she just went over to the window and shut it, because she didn't want her father to hear and kind of ruin her treat. And of course, now you recognize what was going on, but at the time? Yeah, you're just a child, even if that childhood is much more brief for children in Afghanistan.

Dave Crenshaw: 7:46

And I do find that even though we might not fully appreciate it or remember it in the moment or later, it does have an impact. We do feel the trauma. We do experience that from from those things. Where did you see the impact with your family members? For example, you mentioned how you wanted your father to not hear the gunshot so you could go get the Coca Cola. Did you see your mother your siblings be affected by this in a negative way, and sense their sadness as this was occurring,

Unknown: 8:21

definitely. For example, my mother, she was a professor at Kabul University at the time, before the Civil War and everything. And then the Civil War happened in the Taliban. And then, even though, like, 2001 like, you know, the government was toppled. The new government was foreign. But Afghanistan never went back to its formal, healthy self and and so I with my mother, especially losing everything, and then my siblings, too for me, like, you know, I would like close the door, but like my one of my sister, because she at the time of the Civil War, like her teeth would like start scattering because of the she remember the civil war Time. And also, like, just my mom extra being careful, like, oh, we shouldn't laugh too much, because they're going to be outside. We're going to be heard. So that's all, like, this civil war trauma that was left behind and and I think for me too, I think it created so many questions that I still trying to figure those answer out.

Dave Crenshaw: 9:19

You mentioned your mom was a professor, so my, my assumption is that that was taken away from her, right? She wasn't able to do that, but that being very educated, very accomplished, she was teaching you wonderful things and lessons and trying to help you and build you up. Can you? Can you talk a little bit about what her influence was in your life, within the home? Yeah,

Unknown: 9:47

I think, first of all, it was very interesting, because my mom was almost the only woman that I knew that she was, I mean, my aunt, but they were not living in Afghanistan like she was the only one educated. And I think the way. She talked was so different. And like, the focus was different, but I think more so that. And then the stories that she would tell us about her childhood, her going to school, and all of those things of a different Afghanistan, I think that created like this, like our reality is not a fixed one, like there was something different before, and then something can be different. And also, I think my grandfather, my mom's father, was a huge influence and and even though I get to know him through my mother, the story that she told us about him, and how high importance he put in learning, in learning English in specific. And he would say, like, if you know English, it's like opening a window to the world. And that's what kind of led me to start doing that.

Dave Crenshaw: 10:49

Could you share another lesson or principle that you learned from your mother during that time, something that you still use today?

Unknown: 10:57

I think my mom is very, very positive and, like, even when I was at that time, you know, go to school and the outside world was still, like kind of hostile, and coming back home, there was this purity inside the home. And she did look at life with a very positive outlook and very calmness, like a lot of calmness. And I think that's something that I try to do is that, even though, and now, especially not now, I am, like, on a fellowship, actually going back to Afghan history, and I knew the history, but now I'm kind of, like, trying to enter the consciousness of those times, the civil war time and all of that. And now it's even more. I'm like, How did my parents were able to still live normal life, because I for the first four days, like just looking to the archive of the research, I just was so depressed and unhappy and and I think I started to appreciate them even more that they have gone through this period, and yet they were able to give us a normal life. And I think in many ways, this is a story of sola, but also her mother, a story of how the different moments in Afghan history have shaped the experiences of mothers and daughters, and the fact that sola's Mother experienced more freedoms in Afghanistan than sola ever did. And now you see that pattern repeating. And you know, sola was born into a world in which education was restricted, but I think you really feel the loss of that education through what her mother was going through. For instance, there's this story we tell in the book about during the Civil War, so before sola was even born, how her mother had to wear a burka for the first time. And the burka is the most restrictive garment in the world for women. Covers you from head to toe. You Your eyes are even covered by this mesh screen. And so her young sola's mother's young son at that time, sola's brother saw his mom for the first time wearing this and he thought she actually was blind, and he would take her hand and show her the curb and and try and guide her around the city. And of course, she could see through those crisscross slats a little bit. And so the family laughed at this young boy, you know, who thinks his mother can't see. But I think in reality, his innocent assessment was correct, because in that moment, she had lost everything, and in a sense, she had gone blind.

Dave Crenshaw: 13:27

Wow. And that's what I'm feeling as I'm hearing the story is how terrible that transition would be for someone who has had freedom to have it taken away, and it sounds like that's happened several times in the last couple of decades, is that, is that correct? Yeah,

Unknown: 13:43

yeah. I mean, it was kind of normal life. And then the 50s thing starts connected to the world more then, kind of like more visible freedom started to appear. And then, you know, the Civil War period, just like put the country in a very dystopian dimension. And then the Taliban then kind of restored the order, but still introduced their own darkness. And then the US and its ally was then created another kind of a little bit of freedom, but there was still so much still going on. It wasn't really a freedom, freedom, and then now we're in another period of darkness.

Dave Crenshaw: 14:26

We've talked a lot about your mother. What was the influence of your father in your upbringing? Yeah, so

Unknown: 14:32

my father was, you know, her, his mother was very like strong and independent woman, and all of her his sister went to school outside. So unlike other, like a lot of other Afghan fathers in Kandahar, he gave us a lot of space for us to just who we wanted to be. And I think that's like a big thing, considering putting. Him in the context of Afghanistan in that time, I think having that space not taken away, even though, if it's inside the house, is like something I really like appreciate, and yeah,

Dave Crenshaw: 15:13

that I think that's wonderful, that he provided that opportunity for you, which I think would would lead to the courage that you expressed later on, what was one of the first moments where you, as a emerging teenager, realized how horrible things were, how much you were being oppressed. Can you what's, what's one moment that stands out in your mind where you went, Wait a minute, this is not right.

Unknown: 15:41

Yeah. So, you know, I was 11 years old. It was before I was teenager, I was forced to stop going to school, and you know, group of men came to our door and threatened my family if he continued going to school. But as I mentioned, you know, I really didn't like school, and so initially it felt like, Oh, now I can do even though it was, it was a dramatic experience, but for my mother, like she saw her one generation of her kids not getting education, but she had so much hope for this next generation of her kids to be able to educate it, and that was also taken away. And she would often say, Do you know how it feels for an educated mother to see her kids raised uneducated. And for me, it, you know, like when I was 14, I began to realize what that really meant, what especially when I would look at I now began to have, like, so many questions, you know, my brothers were going to school, and I would feel like they had this purpose. And for me, just just, like, wake up the same day and like, what does it mean? Like, why? Why am like that? And why is life like that? And by then, there were also the political atmosphere was also getting dangerous and dangerous. There were suicide bombing exploding, and there's, I've just felt the world outside was dark, and I just yeah, there was this suffocating feeling inside me, and I think that speaks to to how brief childhood is for girls in Afghanistan, especially growing up in a conservative city like Kandahar, where sola was because essentially, you exist as a daughter in your own home, but it was very common for girls to be married by 16. That was the norm. And so at that period where sola was, we write about how she was essentially racing towards a new identity, but that identity was just going to be defined by whose husband she was, and so losing that education essentially became more than losing a place to go, maybe a place that, as a kid, she had complicated feelings about. It was about losing purpose and identity.

Dave Crenshaw: 17:54

As I'm listening to this, I can't help but think of my own daughters. I have two daughters, one almost 15, 111 both very bright, curious and hard worker, and there's so much potential of what they may or may not do in the future, right? Just excited to see that. And the thought of them being in a place that oppresses their ability to express themselves and to be the best version of themselves is just, it's heartbreaking to hear that for those who don't have any context, the question I'm asking is, why, like, what is it that this group that was in power, what is it that there is driving that kind of decision to say, No, We don't want women to go to school. Could you perhaps this is a great question for you, Milena, could you give us a little bit of perspective into what the motive is behind something like that? Sure,

Unknown: 18:51

and I think sola can speak to this too, but I think it's important to understand, especially from an American context, we sometimes think of Afghanistan just in terms of 2001 when the United States entered. And we see the Taliban as the evil in the United States defeating them. And of course, in many ways, the Taliban was a literal embodiment of evil. But it's important to understand the history that came before that, which was essentially a civil war characterized by extreme, brutality. First of all, intense bombing campaigns in fighting between these different warlord groups. And really a level of almost animalistic cruelty that it is almost it's unspeakable. And I think sola is doing research on that time period now, and we did a lot, I did a lot of that. You know, before starting this book, really the society had regressed so far, I would not even say regressed. It felt like a dystopian dimension. Yeah, absolutely. And so on that that was the day to day life that people were living. And then the Taliban come on the stage, and they have a couple of really high profile moments where they. They rescue women who are victims of abuse, or they kind of take over territory, and so they start to look like law and order in a place that's actually that's just terrorized by violence. But what became very clear very quickly is that their interpretation of law and order and rule of law was an adherence to an extremist interpretation of Islam. That's why, you know, images or televisions weren't allowed. That's why there were these ancient punishments like stoning for women, and that's why they forbade girls from going to school.

Dave Crenshaw: 20:39

Is it because a woman should have a particular place in life and not be educated like what is the from their perspective, why women in particular get singled out like this?

Unknown: 20:52

So the thing is, like, you're to look at to where they're coming from. So they're coming from, like, far away villages of Afghanistan, and that's what they have seen, is that their mother, their grandmothers, they didn't go to school, like they were able to bring order with that world view to Afghanistan. And so why would you just give up on that? Like, that's you. So I think trying to understand that makes it at least that's for me, helps understand them like Yeah,

Dave Crenshaw: 21:22

and I asked the question because clearly, it's wrong, but I always find it interesting to understand what's driving it in order to understand how to perhaps overcome it. The best way to overcome is by understanding it. So let's get into that a little bit. So you were not allowed to go to school. Your mother's very educated, so I'm assuming education was still taking place at home, or were there other ways that you were getting schooling during that time?

Unknown: 21:48

Yeah, so I did go to some English courses, but that too was brief. But when I stopped going to school, it wasn't like, oh, like, I'm I have to, like, educate myself. Like it wasn't that thing. It's only when I was 14 I began to see my brother's life differently, and then I also start questioning life, why? Why it's the meaning of life? Why do I exist? Why even the world exists? All of those big questions that, like, started to cloud my mind, and I went through like this phase of not making anything stands. And then I remember my grandfather words, like, if you know English, it's like opening a window to the world. And he was self educated, and, you know, he was poor. And so if he was outside and he would see, like, white papers, he would just, like, collect it, even if it was from a garbage and so I started comparing my life to him. And I was like, if he could do it at that time, you know, he didn't have internet, he didn't have TV, he didn't he had, like, very, very few resources, and yet, he was able to get educated and get to a very high level. And I was, I started learning English, and it was really hard. And I would like, listen for hours and hours with BBC and CNN, and an hour or two like I would understand a word, and I think it's important, too to understand that as a woman in her household, even at that young age, sola was required to cook and clean, and in many ways, all the women in that household, their lives revolved around that cycle. And so even when she began her education, it was listening to the BBC through earbuds while cooking and cleaning and doing dishes. It was eventually using a slow dial up internet connection in the middle of the night because that was the only, only chance she had. And I think it's also important to think about, you know, this is something we write about a lot in the book is that, yes, her mother was very educated, but that didn't always translate into just a blanket enthusiasm for sola pursuing her education. And the reason for that is there's this conflict, right? Because education is dangerous for girls in Afghanistan. It was then, and it is now, first of all, you know, a group of men had already came to their door to try and stop that education. So already there was that physical, immediate danger. But also in a world where girls are married by 16, where their economic security is completely dependent on their marriage, then teaching a girl to think about philosophy, to understand her place in the world, in the world outside of Kandahar, Afghanistan, to understand that other places, you know, people live differently. That is, that's dangerous. And her mother had suffered with what can happen when you have the world open to you and then have it closed again, and she didn't want that for her daughter either. So it was a battle within herself.

Dave Crenshaw: 24:46

You used that word twice, dangerous in what specific way? What was the consequence? What would happen to a woman that is educated and it's known,

Unknown: 24:57

I would say it's less of a physical. You're but more of like a man, because when you're aware of the world, when when you know that whatever around you is happening is not normal, and there can be something different, I think inside yourself, you're suffocating and and when you kind of, the lesser you see, the more you accept. So yeah, it's more complex, but at the same time, I mean, there were there stories we write about in the book, about other girls who who were going to school and were suddenly followed. You know, violence was everywhere in Kandahar, and so just because the United States had defeated the Taliban didn't mean that there weren't sympathizers, so many sympathizers in a city that had been the birthplace of the Taliban. And so even if there wasn't a concerted effort to go door to door and find girls who are educating themselves, the danger was essentially always present.

Dave Crenshaw: 25:54

You mentioned things like the BBC and accessing the internet at night. Was that all forbidden? Was it forbidden just to women? What was the policy or the law at that time? There

Unknown: 26:06

wasn't, like, a policy by the state or anything, but it's just like inside the home, like my brothers were going to school, so they would use the internet and I would and because I had to also do chores and stuff, so I have to, I could do it in the night. And the same thing with BBC, like, it was there, like, as long as we had, like, electricity, that was the problem. But if you had electricity, I could just sit and watch. I think also, it's important to remember that Seoul, as much as Seoul's childhood unfolded when the US forces were in the country and the Afghan government was in power, and so the repression wasn't necessarily happening from the state level, but what we do write about in the book is the fact that, yes, this is a story about incredible perseverance and sola's will to find an education, but also much of the story is predicated on luck, because most families didn't have access to the internet. It was expensive. It was new. They were using dial up at the same time, when I was, you know, growing up in the United States, logging on in a minute, and they used a generator, oftentimes for electricity, oftentimes all the time. Yeah, for electricity. What

Dave Crenshaw: 27:17

was an everyday day like for you in that situation, take us a little bit from the beginning of your day to the end at night. How were you spending your time? Because you weren't allowed to go to school. So what was happening? Yeah, so

Unknown: 27:32

when I started educating myself, I would think about, like, what time, you know, I don't have to do like, you know, we have big families. Have to do, like, work, like cooking and all of this. So I would think about, okay, our organizer in the morning, I have more energy so I can learn more. So I would wake up early study, like, read or, you know, listen to something, watch an English video. And then there were time, you know, we would have guests. I have to, like, prepare for the guests, or just like normal household chores, and most of the day would spend in that and then in the night again, like I would sit and learn. So, you know, it was like I had to carve out a space where I can just do whatever I want and and it's also because you also have to keep your motivation it. It's not like I will knew that, oh, I'll go one day, I'm gonna go to America, and that's where I will study, and that's what I'm preparing for. Like, I did not know what I was preparing for. I just wanted to have control of my life, control my day, and just learn and hopefully, you know, still trying to have hope that, okay, it will lead to something. And so that to that story about the oppression being all around you, I remember we write about this story, about one of the early days when sola was beginning to have this secret education, and she grew up in a place where many people said that women the way that women are, they're not meant to learn. They cannot learn, and they will become sick if they learn. And so one day, she was looking online reading, she spent hours doing it, and she got a headache, just like a lot of us do if we look at a screen or if we read a book for too long. And at the beginning of her journey, she saw that as proof that, oh, women aren't supposed to do this. Oh, maybe I'm getting sick from this knowledge, from this learning, and I think that just speaks to how pervasive this oppression really was. Yeah,

Dave Crenshaw: 29:28

because you've been hearing it over and over these things, you've been indoctrinated that this is bad for you. And so where did things start to get better? You mentioned that you held on to this hope that something was going to be better. Where did you start to see that the hope could be a reality? Sola,

Unknown: 29:47

yeah, so my brothers were preparing for English exam. He wanted to go study in the UK. And my sister was telling me, like, oh, you know, when he does it, you will do it too. And I think it was a little. To optimistic, but I kind of, I really wanted to believe her. And so that's and then I in 2012 there was so much war and on something different, and my brothers were, my brother was going to Pakistan, and I asked him, like, can you bring me anything that's in English? Because in Kandahar, it was like finding English material, reading. It was really, really hard. And so he brought me back, like, Time Magazine and other things. And in Time magazine, I just was slipping through the pages, and I found out about Khan Academy, and it is like a learning, online learning platform. And it was about like, learn anything, anywhere, for free. And I just felt like I really needed that. And I immediately went on to open my laptop and opened up Khan Academy, and it had this advertisement of algebra, the beauty of algebra. And I felt like, oh, it might not be for me, because I have overheard conversation from my brothers and male cousins, like, how hard, like, algebra or math is, like, you have this just one line of equation, and it has, like, pages and pages of proof, and then at the end you just get one answer, like this tiny answer. And for me, it was such a like, I was so intrigued by that. And how can that be true? You know, it's something magical happening there. Like, what is it like? What is that tiny thing holes that you to unravel it? You have to do those pages of pages of writing. And so I kind of, like, turned off my laptop because I was like, Oh, this is not for me. I don't even know what that is. But then after a few days, like, curiosity took the better off me, and I asked my younger brother, of like, what is the come after addition and subtraction? Because that's how I thought I knew. Because from the time that I went to school, and he told me fractions and I went to Khan Academy, I searched fractions and I studied a little bit, but then I also realized I had to, like, do my addition subtraction too. And I just got obsessed with learning math and science because it was just so structured. And it just like, every day I would be like, Okay, I have to study this. And because I was at that time, I was 16, and I just was like, Oh, how stupid I am. I'm 16, and I still don't know any of those things. So I have to, like, learn everything's really, really faster. So I think from that moment on, it just, I think the learning became something really different to me, and it just started to give me a really, really different purpose. And the fact that I was able to learn, I think it just like kept me going. And I just think I was beginning to see, like a world opening up to me, at least in my own head. And this is the core of the book, basically that when she sola was 16, she couldn't even add or subtract, but within three years of just using online resources, she was doing college level physics and calculus. And that's just an incredible story,

Dave Crenshaw: 32:56

yeah? Well, it shows a lot about your internal desire to learn. I think so many people get dependent upon the system, right? Oh, the high school is going to teach me everything I need to, need to know, and then I'm going to go to college and they're going to teach me everything I need to know. Well, that's true, but it's you choosing to learn. You choosing to be teachable. That's what makes it work? And that's what it clearly was making it work for you. Sola, so kudos to you for that, having that that gift and that ability. So where did this start to turn into an opportunity to actually leave Afghanistan? What? What brought that about?

Unknown: 33:37

Yeah. So you know, by then, I was spending at most, like, eight hours a day of learning math and sciences, philosophy and physics. And then it become less about my place in the social world and more my place in the physical world. And, you know, I started studying, like, Astronomy and Astrophysics, and it's like in 2015 and I was like, Okay, now I think I have enough, because my like, I wanted to study in a university, and I was like, I can't just, like, forever be in my own room and just study. And I wanted to, like, apply to some colleges and study abroad. And by then, my brother was was studying abroad, and I was like, I have to, like, follow on his footsteps and do but I didn't go to school, so I didn't have a high school certificate or anything, and so the first step was to get that so, yeah, just like trying to figure that out, was

Dave Crenshaw: 34:29

there any risk associated with that? The idea is, you're applying to a university in the United States, right? You've been doing all this stuff kind of clandestine, because you're concerned about what the ruling group is going to do. So how did that work? Was it? Did it require some to be sneaky, or was it not that big of a challenge to send out those applications? I

Unknown: 34:55

mean, I think the risk that we talk about in the book even comes before sending those applications. Educations, because, as sola mentioned, you know, she was self taught, and so the first step was just, how do you prove that education? And so first she tried to go to the local Ministry of Education and get a certificate, but the officials there wouldn't even look her in the eyes because she was a woman, let alone give her the right paperwork. So then she tried to take the GED, which is an exam we're familiar with, and she studied for that, only to realize that the exam wasn't offered in Afghanistan or in any neighboring countries, so there was no way for her to take that. And so the SAT the exam that pretty much all high schoolers here in the United States take, pretty much became her only chance at a way out, but the SAT wasn't offered in Afghanistan. It was only in Pakistan. And so she crossed one of the world's most dangerous borders, a border where men and women have to be separated, where people are regularly beaten with electric cables, where you have to take multiple vehicles just to get across. She crossed into Pakistan and managed to take the last spot in an S, A T administration there and take the exam, and that was all you know, before she even wrote a single application. I was just gonna say

Dave Crenshaw: 36:13

hearing that story, I'm never going to allow my children to complain about taking one of those tests again in high school. All they have to do is go and sit down in the cafeteria with a pencil, and they're off and running. So the idea that you had to do that, and not only had to do that, but had the will to do it and want to do it, that's remarkable. Okay, so then you took that, I mean, it seems like even getting the results from it would be difficult, or getting the results to the university right? Was that a challenge as well?

Unknown: 36:45

No, it wasn't a challenge because it shows it online, and then you also, like, kind of attached to PDF, so it wasn't hard. But then also have to take another test as well, IELTS that I was to prove

Dave Crenshaw: 36:58

English. Yeah, and, and where did you end up getting accepted? Arizona,

Unknown: 37:03

State University, University of Iowa, and then another community college, and you got a full ride to Arizona? Yeah.

Dave Crenshaw: 37:09

I'm assuming leaving the country was incredibly difficult. Can you talk to me a little bit what, what that was like?

Unknown: 37:15

Yeah. So I mean, I took the exams, and I applied for university, about accepted to some and then the next step was to get a student visa, and that was to come go to Kabul and go to the US Embassy in Kabul and get visa. But when I went there, my in a minute, it was denied. And it's like the whole like world like shattered for me, because I spent years to come to this point, and this person just in a minute telling me that he can't give me a visa, and when I ask the reason why, he says, like, I just don't think you're going there to study. You're just going there to immigrate. And this was the moment I realized how the outside world sees Afghans just desperate to leave their country, and they're not serious about learning and education. But still, I was like, Okay, it's still in my hand, but this moment, this felt like, really, really hopeless. Like,

Dave Crenshaw: 38:10

yeah, so how did you overcome that?

Unknown: 38:13

So luckily, you know, at that time, I was also talking to some professor in Arizona and and also I had a friend who, when I was preparing for exam, who I met online. And so she also grew up at the time of the US presence in Afghanistan, and you know, all those stories of us helping Afghan women. And then she suddenly this was not really reality, like if anyone should have gotten a visa, she thought it should have been me, but how could that be true? And so she was really furious. And all the other people who have talked to you know about physics and everything, and then they saw potential in me. And so then they start to get support. And then, like, after a month and a half, I was able to get a humanitarian parole visa, which is not a student visa, which also meant I did not know when I will be able to see my parents, my family and I left Afghanistan in 2016

Dave Crenshaw: 39:12

that's the first time you'd ever traveled out of the country, other than going to take the test in Pakistan, right?

Unknown: 39:18

Yeah, yeah.

Dave Crenshaw: 39:19

How was that trip for you.

Unknown: 39:21

I mean, I think it was both really hard and it was all because hard in the sense that, you know, just I was walking into a completely new life that I do not know what it would be. Will I be, how I would be able to live in there? I never like live without my family. So I think, you know both like, Oh, I'm embarking on, like, a new journey of life, but there was also so much unknown. And I think also by then, there had many other questions about the place of Afghan in the world. And it was just like a lot of mixture of emotions. There's a story that we. Tell in the book about the first time when she landed in the United States, and that friend she had met online, Emily, who had been helping teach her English, came to pick her up. So they're there in the airport, and Emily kind of gestures for her to get in the front seat. And at that moment, you know, sola kind of pauses, because she's never sat in the front seat of a car before and her friend Emily slides into the driver's seat and she's never seen a woman drive. There were so many of those kinds of moments, right? That I think, as Americans, you might not even think of as what would be the real culture shock. But that really stuck with me,

Dave Crenshaw: 40:37

yeah, that's Yeah. What a what a story. Talk to me a little bit about how you clearly have succeeded in education here. I mean, just the concept of being involved in quantum computing, to me, is very impressive, and I'm curious about it. Can you just share a little bit of if someone's listening to this and their student, what has worked well for you? How have you succeeded as a student? I'd love for you to share some advice about how to accomplish what you've accomplished in your educational career. Yeah,

Unknown: 41:13

as you've mentioned before, like, a lot of the time people rely on, you know, someone else, to teach them. But for me, it's also like paying attention to the world. I think the world is full of questions, you know, and trying to interrogate and understand why, why it is the way it is. And for me that either, if it's in the social sciences world or in the physical science, is that, you know, I want to understand something, and I just get obsessed with it. I would like, you know, it's like, you should be able to put it together in your mind, like you can. It's easy to read an explanation, or this is this, you know, but for me, really is to kind of, first of all, I think reading different books, like, even if it's the same topic, something that kind of sparks questions in your head, and then trying to answer it, and then you kind of like, I have to reconstruct it in my head. And if I'm unable to do that, then I don't think I understand it, and I pursue it until I do it. And also, a lot of the time, we just think it takes a special person to do all of those things. But I really like this one quote by Richard Feynman, who was like a physicist, and he said, If one idiot can invent, another stupid can understand so it's not like as a humans, we are not like in some sense. We are all the same. So if one of us can invent it, the other one can understand it too. So I just think not putting at inventors or any people like that, like at a very high level, see them as normal humans, and you're just trying to understand what they have done,

Dave Crenshaw: 42:46

yeah, and what I'm getting too, is that you're reading more than what's assigned to you. You're studying more than what someone else is telling and that, I think, is a fantastic trait to have throughout your life, and it's shockingly rare, but I think it's something that people should emulate. Could you give us a little bit of insight into what you do as a quantum computing researcher at at Tufts? What does that mean?

Unknown: 43:15

Yeah, so it's mostly my work is theoretical, and it's about like developing algorithms and trying to see, how is it better in some problems and classical algorithms? Because that's what the whole paradigm of quantum computing is. But it speeds up like calculation for some really important problems. But we might not know exactly what where that problems are, what are the details of the solutions are and how it compares to classical algorithms. So that's what? Yeah,

Dave Crenshaw: 43:48

that's brilliant stuff. That's fascinating that you're involved in. That last question, we could talk for a long time. What an amazing story. I I'm curious. You both are touring around, you're doing interviews like this. You're bringing awareness to the plight of women in Afghanistan. What things are you doing to help? What are other things that you're doing to help as well women in Afghanistan? And what would you suggest people like, if I'm listening to this and I say, hey, I want to help, what are some things that we can do.

Unknown: 44:21

Yeah, I mean, I think, honestly, the most important thing is first just bringing awareness to what's happening in Afghanistan. So in 2021 the Taliban took over the country again, and what that meant for women was, eventually, the Taliban passed over 75 different edicts that banned girls from school, banned women from the workplace, but also, most recently, banned women from beauty salons, one of the last places they could gather and make money, or stopped allowing female call ins to radio or television shows. Basically this attempt to erase. Of women and women's identities from the public sphere entirely. And I think that that's a story that got coverage for a week or two in August of 2021 but it's something that continues to happen every single day. There are new edicts almost every other week. You know, this problem hasn't stopped, and the situation is getting even more dire for women and girls in Afghanistan. And so the most important thing that we hope through this book is that people gain a very personal understanding of what it's like to be a woman in that country, not the fact that there are statistics like 2.5 million girls denied an education or political analyzes, but what is it like to be a mother who watches a child grow up uneducated? What is it like to watch your school be taken away from you? And so that's really our hope with this book. And what I would say to other people is, seek out these stories. Don't turn away from the stories of Afghan women, because what we saw is actually when the Taliban first took over, there was this period where there was engagement and nothing had quite yet happened. The Taliban had taken power, but they hadn't been began to impose these edicts, and it was really once the world's attention turned away that we saw this radical transformation. And I think that speaks to the responsibility we all have, because if we start to normalize this kind of oppression, we all lose so much, I think for me, like really understanding my countries on details of the histories and all of that, and also trying to create a platform that will hopefully help Afghan Women to create their own knowledge in what they see as an empowerment and how the world can help back with it. So, yeah, I'm the early stages of thinking in that way, and hopefully there will be something to share with the world and see what they can do to amplify that

Dave Crenshaw: 46:58

well. Thank you so much, both of you for bringing attention to things that I certainly wasn't aware of. I just knew things were bad, and I think a lot of people in the US are like that, or even other parts of the world as well, right? We know it's bad, but we don't really understand what's going on. And I really appreciate you sharing this with us, making the book available defiant dreams. So at the end of every episode, I do something a little different, because as a as an educator, as someone who teaches productivity and leadership, my perspective is it's not just about what we heard, but it's about what we do. So what I'm going to do now is I'm going to pull three things that I heard from your story sola, that illustrate how to be successful. And they're things that someone can do right now this week, not a year from now, but something they can implement right now so they can make your success story a part of their success story. And then what I'd like you at the end, and perhaps one from each of you is add one action that someone can take this week to do something to be more successful. Sound good? All right, okay, so here is the first thing that I wrote down, and I'm actually going to call on the example of your mother for this. You mentioned how she created a positive space. She created a positive outlook in the home, even when things were going on terrible around you. She created a sense of calmness. And I think that that is a trait of great leadership. And anyone can think about this, if you're at work or something's in your family where there's chaos happening around you, you can be someone that is positive, that is calm and helps the people around you feel like they can succeed and do better by making that choice. So just consider how you could bring a little bit more calmness, a little more positivity to your leadership style. The second one was a phrase that came up a few times, which is knowing the language. In your case, it was English, sola, knowing the language opens up windows, right? Opens up opportunities. I'm going to approach this from two possible languages. So if someone's listening to this one is if you're in a foreign country or in a very different culture, learn that language. So if it happens to be English, great, but it may be you're in New York, in a Brazilian community, learn Portuguese, whatever it is take the time to learn the language of the people around you that will open doors. And if you're not in a place like that, learn your own language better. I really seen the power of that. I mentioned my daughters, my my daughter, Ella in particular, is a writer. She's hungry for knowledge about language. She's always learning about it, and I think that'll open up Windows, no matter where you are, no matter what you're accomplishing. And then the last one we have to talk about is sola. How you engaged in online learning. My career has been built around it with my courses on LinkedIn learning. And you mentioned Khan Academy, which is a fantastic resource for people. Anyone listening to this right now, you can take a course online in something you don't know about but that you're curious about, do that this week, whether it's con or LinkedIn learning or some other place. Take a course this week. Learn something new, and you can be hungry for knowledge, just like sola is and was, alright. So those are my three action items. Who wants to go first with with a suggestion action from this?

Unknown: 50:39

I guess I would say, read a book, or watch a documentary, or even just an article about a place that you don't know about and you're not from, because I think for me, getting to see Afghanistan through sola's eyes was an incredibly enriching experience. It helped shape what I'm studying now at Stanford, what I want to do with my life, and really how I see the world, and I would encourage other people to do the same thing.

Dave Crenshaw: 51:04

Fantastic. And sola, yeah, I

Unknown: 51:07

think, um, the power of knowledge. A lot of the time. People say, you know, knowledge, knowledge is power. But I see it like non knowledge is emancipation, because if we don't know how the world works, we don't know how to change it. And so I think, like, that's how, and especially in my own case, like just knowing the details of each period, the consciousness of each time of our history, I think it has changed the way I see the world, the way I will tell Afghan stories and everything. So I think knowing more details of the world? Yeah, I think it will change us, and hopefully they're going to be like a tiny bit of change in the world as well. The

Dave Crenshaw: 51:48

word that keeps coming to mind about you sola is curiosity. You have an intense curiosity to learn about things, to learn how they fit together. That's a wonderful trait and something that I think we all should emulate. So thank you. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. Of course, we're going to encourage people to get the book defiant dreams. If people want to follow your story, where would you encourage people to go online to stay connected?

Unknown: 52:15

You can find out more about the book and sola story at defiant dreams.com and then you can find us both with our names on Twitter and Instagram.

Dave Crenshaw: 52:24

Okay? And I'm going to encourage as a LinkedIn guy, LinkedIn as well, you're there too, right? Yeah, I am there. Fantastic. Thank you very much for sharing this story and for being here, and thank you everyone for listening. Remember, it's not just about the knowledge that you gained. It's not just about what you felt, it's about what you do. So please do something this week, and you'll make sola and milena's success story a part of your success story. Thanks for listening.

Darci Crenshaw: 52:56

You've been listening to the Dave Crenshaw Success Show, hosted by my dad, Dave Crenshaw, and produced by invaluable, Incorporated research and assistant production by Victoria Bidez, Sound Editing by Nikic Wright, voiceover by me, Darci Crenshaw, and the music is by Ryan Brady via Pon five licensing, please subscribe To the Dave Crenshaw success show on Apple podcasts, Spotify, wherever you like to get your podcasts. If you have a suggestion for someone my dad might like to interview, please send it to guests at Dave crenshaw.com and please don't forget to leave us a five star review. See you next time you.