The Science-Centered Leadership Coach, Caroline Webb - Author & Coach

Caroline Webb is a renowned executive coach, author, and speaker known for her expertise in using behavioral science to enhance professional life. Caroline shares her journey from aspiring astrophysicist to a leading leadership coach, discussing pivotal career transitions, her time at McKinsey, and how she turned challenges into opportunities. Listen to her story today and choose which action best suits your goals.


Action Principles


Pick one to do this week:

1. Learn a little about economics. Exploring economics will help you understand decision-making and the broader world better. ACTION ITEM: Take a course to learn more about economics.

2. Run small experiments. Before making significant life or career changes, test ideas on a smaller scale. ACTION ITEM: Experiment with a new idea or change for 30 days to test the outcome.

3. Look for good intentions. View others' actions through a compassionate lens. ACTION ITEM: When someone is behaving negatively, try to see their actions through an empathetic eye. 

4. Set personal boundaries. Identify your peak productivity times or personal preferences and be transparent with others about them. ACTION ITEM: Pick one area in your life that needs an adjustment and communicate this change to those affected.


Guest Resources


Learn more about working with Caroline Webb at carolinewebb.co.


Suggested LinkedIn Learning Course


Time Management Fundamentals

Free Time Management Course

Thanks to Dave Crenshaw's partnership with Microsoft and LinkedIn Learning, you can get free access to his full course, Time Management Fundamentals, at DaveGift.com.

Dave Crenshaw develops productive leaders in Fortune 500 companies, universities, and organizations of every size. He has appeared in Time magazine, USA Today, FastCompany, and the BBC News. His courses on LinkedIn Learning have been viewed tens of millions of times. His five books have been published in eight languages, the most popular of which is The Myth of Multitasking—a time management bestseller. As an author, speaker, and online instructor, Dave has transformed the lives and careers of hundreds of thousands around the world. DaveCrenshaw.com

Transcript

Caroline Webb: 0:00

I got some comments from various clients that they would have liked to book to back up what I was doing. So I thought, Okay, well, at least I can think of at least three people who might buy this book. If I write,

Dave Crenshaw: 0:12

no kidding, I had a post it note on my desk saying, this is for Sarah. This is for Nyan. This is for Peter. In this episode, you'll get to know Caroline Webb, the science centered leadership coach, and you'll hear the story of how she turned her interest in economics into a career as one of the most esteemed leadership coaches in the world. I'm Dave Crenshaw, and this is my success Show. Welcome back, friends to the Dave Crenshaw Success Show. This is where I speak to some of the most successful people in my life's journey, and I'm on the hunt for universal principles of success to help both you and my family succeed. In case it's your first time here, I'm a best selling author. I speak around the world of Fortune 500 companies, and I've taught millions of people how to be successful through my online courses, particularly my courses on LinkedIn, learning with this show, I wanted to do something a little bit different, create a legacy project, really. First of all, I was inspired to help my children succeed. But then I thought, Well, I think everyone else would enjoy learning along with them. I interview people who have multi faceted success in many areas of their lives, not just career or financial success. And what I'm looking for are actions that you can take right now today to become more successful. So as you listen to today's episode, look for something you can do. Look for an action that you can take today or this week, and then that way you'll make my guest success story a part of your success story, and my guest today is someone you'll want to do that with Caroline Webb is an executive coach, author and speaker. She's known for being one of the world's leading experts in using insights from behavioral science to improve professional life. She has multiple courses on LinkedIn learning, and her best selling book, How to Have a good day has been published in 17 editions in over 60 countries. She's also a senior advisor to the consulting firm McKinsey, where she was previously a partner. She's also an enthusiastic amateur singer for the Cecilia chorus of New York and has performed in Carnegie Hall six times. Caroline, it's an honor to have you here today. I'm delighted to be here, and I always like to ask my guests, where are you today? While I'm interviewing you, I am today in New York City, sitting in my office on the Upper West Side. Lovely. I love New York City and the Upper West Side, that's a really nice place to live. Oh, thank you. So when I saw your expertise, especially in using science and leadership coaching, I thought we absolutely have to have you on the show. And I'm really fascinated to get your insights into how we can be better leaders through your experience. I like to start by asking all my guests the same question, which is, when you were a teenager, what did you want to be when you grew up? Oh, that's easy, because I've got a really strong memory of that. I wanted to be an astrophysicist, and specifically, I didn't want to be in the spaceship, but I wanted to be in NASA ground control. Wow. Okay, so not an astronaut, which is is a common answer, where your kid but helping the astronauts, right? There you go. I think I've always wanted to be the person behind the person helping out. Where did that interest in science begin for you? That's a good question. I was always really into science fiction, and whenever I got a chance to write a story in my English class, it would always be a science fiction little story of some sort. And I loved reading Asimov, and I loved reading a lot of these classic science fiction authors, so I really enjoyed, you know, immersing myself in this kind of world. And the more I thought about it, the more I got interested in actually helping to shape it. And I was always quite into math, and so was able to conceive of the possibility of going in that direction. Let's say that's well, we're kindred spirits in that area. I love science fiction. In fact, I even wrote a science fiction novel under a under a pen name. So that's fantastic that you you love that. So were you? I'm assuming that, academically speaking, you also had a gift for science. Academically speaking, yeah, I was good at science. What I discovered was that I wasn't the world's best. And actually, that was a bit of a shock when I did run up against that. But, you know, I really, you know, loved science. I still love science, as you can tell from, you know, the fact that it's at the root of the work that I do. Yeah, how did you find out you were not the best? How did you come to that, that revelation? Well, I went to an international school that I.

Caroline Webb: 5:00

Got a scholarship to where I was suddenly alongside kids from all around the world. And actually kids were a little bit older than me as well, in some cases. And from being the best at physics and chemistry and math, I was suddenly finding that actually there were people who were just much, much better than I was. And I think that was a good life experience quite early on, actually, to realize that, you know, you might be good in a small pond, but actually there are brilliant people out there across the world, and it's good for your humility, I think, to learn that early on. That is so true in so many areas where we might, in high school, be particularly good at something, because it's a small sample size, right? And then you get to the next level, and you go, Wait a minute. There were a lot of people in a lot of high schools who were at that level that I was at exactly, exactly, yeah, so I then I had to pivot. So when you said you were at an international school, you're talking about grade school, right? High school age. So this, this was 16 to 18. This was a United World College, which was movement set up to try and bring kids together from different nationalities and help build more connections across national boundaries. So you know, that was 1617, and that was just before I went to university, or college, as we call it, here in the US. And where did you go for University? I went to Cambridge University. And then for my grad school, I went to Oxford University because I want no imagination. Well, those are some pretty good names to have on your resume, though. I mean, that's pretty prestigious. Oh, well, thank you. At least they're perceived as such in the United States. Yeah, no, I mean that they are. But I think, you know, in retrospect, I might have imagined that I could have come to study in the US, you know, and started my us life, you know, a little bit earlier, at least for grad school. But anyway, yes, you know, that was, that was me. I went to, went to Cambridge, and then Oxford. Let's talk about that for a bit. So did you also study science? And which science were you studying when you went there? Well, when I was at that international school, I had to take a class in economics, and I was really annoyed about it, because I really just wanted to do straight, you know, straight pure science, and I had to take a class in economics to make my curriculum work. And then I discovered, oh, my goodness, economics is a way of thinking and a structured way about human potential and performance. And in my mind, was kind of blown by that. And that was my hard turn towards social science, and I've never really looked back. So what I studied at university was was economics, and then at grad school economics, my first career economics. So Caroline for those who are unfamiliar, we've got an audience of all age ranges and experience for those who are unfamiliar. How would you define economics? What does that mean on a day to day basis? For me, economics was always the study and the science of how humans can be at their best, and that is my personal definition. I think other people would say it's about how human beings make choices. It's about how we build prosperity, but I think at the heart of all of that is how individuals carry themselves and show up in the world. And there are different ways that people study that, but the behavioral aspect is where I ended up being most interested. I love that addition to it, because, yeah, the definition I've heard is how people make decisions, but don't we want to make the best possible decisions. So that's, that's a lovely inclusion. Thank you. Yeah, so we're making decisions, but what? But for what I mean, we're trying to make the best choices we can to help ourselves thrive, to help other people thrive, usually in some way. So yeah, I think at the heart of it is, is that that sense of what it takes for humans to thrive and maximize their potential, whether at a national level or global level, or whether at an individual level. So now you're applying economics in a in a very personal level, right? Often, economics can be very macro. In fact, they even have an area of it, for those who are unfamiliar, called macroeconomics. So were you in the beginning, more interested in sort of a broad policy aspect of economics, or were you interested in more of the human decision, the microeconomics side of things? Well, this is so fascinating to talk about. I love that you know these different areas of economics well. And I'll just say part of my story is that when I was in college, I would read economics books for fun. I actually really enjoyed it, and I probably could have studied that. I ended up majoring in entrepreneurship, but, but yes, I have a very strong appreciation, not maybe as much knowledge, but a very strong appreciation for economics. That's fantastic. Well. So I was very interested in the idea that economics could make the world a better place. And so I. Naturally thinking, well, that means I must work in macroeconomics. And actually that was where I did end up working. I worked for the British government on supporting change in Eastern Europe after the Berlin Wall came down and a bunch of other fascinating policy jobs, but I was always interested in the individual. And actually, as I went further into my career in economics, I really felt that working in macro macroeconomics was just taking me way too far from the idea of economics being a human subject, a human discipline. And so after almost a decade, I kind of did a record scratch, and, you know, said, okay, okay, I really want to get back to the human and then I decided to make a change and get out of conventional economics as it was then, okay, so you did work in the macroeconomic sense, on policy for the government. What did you learn during that time? I learned that real people make really important decisions all all the time about policy that affects everybody. I can still remember a day when I had discovered that the Lithuanian central bank governor had resigned, and I was, I was the only person who seemed to know that in the UK. And this was really important, because there was some policy towards Lithuania that was being decided at the IMF, and I had to write the briefing note. And I remember thinking, oh my goodness, it's people like me. I was 22 at the time, and realizing that it's actually down to real people doing their very best, not always having all the facts, trying to figure out, you know, the right thing to do. And you know, that initially made me a little nervous, and then it made me feel quite empowered. And you know, that's what a lot of people are working in public service around the world. You know, I'm sure feel there's a sense of nervousness, but it feels really good to be doing something that feels useful on a broader scale, and how was it useful? Give us an example of how someone in that position might affect or influence policy and changes. Well, I was deciding the UK's line to take is the phrase in diplomatic circles, the vote that the UK was going to make at the IMF and the World Bank about lending to countries that were in my domain. And that's very real. There's a very large number that's associated with that, and you are there trying to make the best choice you can about whether the UK representative should ask this question or that question, and ultimately, what their vote should be based on lots of careful analysis that felt very special. That was one of the things I loved most about the work, was just feeling that what you were doing potentially could make a lot of difference to a lot of people. Yeah, I think that's a fascinating field, and I think the more people understand how these things influence everything around them, you can only be smarter and wiser. You can be more savvy about the decisions that you're making on a day to day basis, like with your career. And what am I going to focus on? So yeah, I love that. So why the change you made that switch at some point to start working on a more personal level. What caused that, that switch to flip in your mind, I started to feel that academic economics really didn't have clear sight of the human being anymore. This was before the behavioral revolution at broken in the UK, at least as you can tell from my accent, that's where I'm from originally. So I grew up, you know, in a tradition in economics that was not quite at the same place as some schools in the US, and the idea that, for example, you know, humans might do anything except maximize money in any given moment, which is, you know, at the heart of a lot of economic models that we might care about, you know, community, or we might care about our family, or we might care about, you know, any number of other things we might care about, you know, looking good. Or some of these psychological dimensions that was not present at the time in the economics tradition, and I was getting really frustrated by this, and so I really wanted to get back to more of the behavioral side of economics, which, of course, ended up being a huge movement, but at the time, was just a whisper. And so what I did was I thought, Well, where am I going to get more of that chance to focus on the human being and the idea of human behavior and psychology, and I decided to go into management consulting to see if I could work on organizational change and leadership, and that, in the end, turned out to be a great choice. So this leads to a question in my mind, and. And it might be difficult to remember, but as best you can, can you remember the first or one of the first moments where you actually consulted someone, where you actually provided that management consulting advice? Because that's a pretty big turning point for anyone who finally decides to do something like that. You know, whenever anyone has a turning point. There's usually traces of it beforehand, right? And honestly, the first trace of it came when I was sitting with the central bank governor in Poland. Now, to be clear, I wasn't old enough to be running the meeting, but I was there and she was trying to figure out how to move her central bank from what was really just a kind of shell of an organization to a real organization that was playing the role that a central bank does in a modern economy. And it was the first time that I saw that you could sit with a senior person and you could help them think something through, without necessarily being an expert, but having something to offer through your curiosity and your care. And so that was, you know, very early on. And there were a few of those moments, but if I go back to the very first time that I imagined the possibility of doing something coaching related, that was the moment, probably 1994 Oh, wow. So really, really early. That was before you got your masters Correct. Yes, that's right, that was so that was very early on. And there were a few moments like that. And what happens, I think, when you're considering a pivot, is you look back and you try and draw a thread through things that weren't originally joined up in your mind. And then you start to see, Oh, hold on, actually, if I think about peak moments when I felt really most expressed as a human being. What were those moments? And they were almost always when I was sitting with someone senior and helping them think something through. You know, my animating force is feeling useful. I really want to feel useful and helpful to help people thrive and be at their very best. And I'm lucky enough to have found a way to make that the center of my work. That's fantastic. There's something here too in that story that I want to point out, which is I experienced this when I when I first started coaching entrepreneurs, that's where I started, Caroline, and I started in 98 I'm almost 50 now, and I was 23 when I started, and I already kind of have a baby face. I look like I was 15. There is a moment where you just jump in and you start helping people and coaching, and you realize, wait a minute, I have value, especially if I'm not trying to tell people what to do. I think that's the mistake people make with coaching. They feel like I have to be smart and tell people what to do, but instead, it's about helping people find what's already right for them, what they already, kind of deep in their heart, knows right, but for some reason, they're not doing it. Would would you agree with that? I would agree with that. Yeah. And there were times early in my career at McKinsey where I had a similar sort of experience. You know, as a consultant, sitting with a senior, I can still remember talking to a CFO about the IT system that she needed to commission. And I know nothing. I really, you know, I could not opine on the actual choices, but to help her structure her thinking. And then, you know, help her think about how to reach the right choice. Yeah, absolutely. Then, you know, as you say, it's about enabling what's inside someone. Okay, so we've talked about the the good starting experiences that you've had that gave you encouragement. Is there something that you look back on and you go, Wow, I did not handle that, right? I could have done so much better in this situation. Are there moments like that, that that stand out in your mind, or that you replay and learn from. Oh, absolutely. I think everybody has moments that you know that didn't go quite so well. You know, one of the challenges for me has always been that I'm a late night person, and when I say late night, I mean my body wants to go to sleep at 3am and, oh, that's really late. Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I have a the body clock of a teenage boy. This is and so that has always been something for me to actively manage in professional life. So, you know, there have been times when I have really had to kind of scramble to make sure that I am fully on and awake and able to be fully present. And when I was doing a lot of group work with clients where I would need to be sort of holding the space, if you like, at 8am and, you know, meeting with the CEO at 7am you know, it was almost the point where I might as well just stay up all night. So, you know, I would say that there are a few moments when I've really, you know, I've really been just about able to switch things on a moment before I absolutely needed to. And there was one time when I slept through my alarm. And so. I always now schedule my coaching meetings after 10am and I find that that works better for everybody. I really want to highlight that there. I think that's important, more important than someone listening to it might have caught on so often. I think we try to do what we think other people think is good. We want to accommodate, and I think that's important. But you also have to understand who you are and communicate that with other people and say, You know what? If you want me at my best, this is the way to do it. I think Caroline, a couple of things that I've done is, if I'm coaching someone in person, I'm like, I need to stand up. I can't think as clearly when I'm in this chair, and related to that, a lot of the stuff that I would do is on phone, and they'd say, Can we do a video conference? I'd say, we can do a video conference, but understand I'm gonna be moving around the whole time, because I think best when I do that, it's okay to tell people that. It's okay to say, let's make an adjustment, because I want to be at my very best for you. So true, and I've tried to encourage people over the years to understand that. And actually, the first time that I realized that I could set boundaries and be clear with people about, you know, how I was going to show up best, was actually back to my career in economics, where for a period, I was actually forecasting and analyzing the US economy for the British authorities. And so, you know, with the US time zones, it meant that the markets in the US didn't open until well into the UK day. And I negotiated a very late start, and then very late finished. I will be the last person in the office, by long way, I will be, you know, working hours at the end of the day that people thought were crazy, but they suited me. And that taught me really early on that actually, not only is it helpful to be clear with yourself about how to get the best out of yourself, but actually can be really powerful to talk to other people, because it meant that, you know, it gave us more cover on a bunch of things. And the same thing happened then, you know what? As a consultant, you have to fit around your clients. You have to fit around your colleagues, you have to be a decent, collaborative person. But so many people don't actually articulate what they need, and that's something I've really advocated. Talk to us a little bit about McKinsey. How long did you work there? I was there for 12 years, and then I moved from being a partner to having an external role as a senior advisor. So, you know, another 12 years or so of being somewhat connected, let's say long time. Yeah. So how does that work to become a partner at McKinsey? What do you have to do for that to happen? What does that mean? Well, you have to be really clear and distinctive in what you're bringing to the gene pool, you actually need to be bringing something that is a little bit different. And so in order to enrich the partnership, there needs to be some clarity about what you stand for and the kind of work you do and the kind of work you like doing. And I was lucky, because, you know, what I was doing at McKinsey was pretty unusual. It was not in the mainstream to do behavioral change work. And I think, you know, there was a space for me. And then you you know, also, realistically, you have to be able to, you know, bring in some work. I mean, there's also that. And so, you know, you have to be able to show that you are compelling enough in what you do that you will bring clients to you, and that's partly what you do, but it's also how you do it, and who you are as a person. That's a really interesting perspective. It puts a little more emphasis on the marketing aspect of things than the sales. In the end, it's still a sale. But how did you do that early on in your career. How did you actually attract people into McKinsey and what you were doing? This is more of a logistics question, more of a systems question, like, what was your process? Well, my process isn't necessarily what everybody does there, but my process was to figure out the work I most wanted to do, and that was leadership and organizational change and leadership in thinking about top team dynamics, in thinking about how to coach CEOs and people in the C suite, and I went really deep into thinking about whether it was possible for us to define a way of doing that As a firm now, everybody's different, every partner's different. So you don't want to tell people how to coach their clients, but I went quite far into trying to decide, how should we could we show up better when we're working with an executive team or a board and we're trying to help them be the best leaders they can be. So I spent several years working to lay down those approaches. And I would help teams around the world, McKinsey teams who were serving clients on all sorts of topics and all sorts of industries. And they would say, Oh, we've got a session with the board. We would like to come out of this with them feeling. Like they own the, you know, the change that we're driving. You know, what's your what's your advice? And so I would sit with them, and I did that again and again and again and again. And eventually they pulled me in to their situations. I'd had a little bit of a depth of understanding in healthcare, because I had come through the public sector route in the UK, and so I was able to understand what it was like to be in large, complex, sometimes bureaucratic organizations. And so then as time went on, I specialized more and more in healthcare. In fact, I said to the healthcare leaders, I think there's a massive opportunity for us to do more organizational change in leadership work in healthcare. And they said, go for it. I mean, they didn't give me a budget or anything, you know, concrete like that. But they said, Fine, you know, go and talk to our clients and see whether you can, you know, get them interested in this. And so I did. And you know, you only really need one client, and then you can tell the story of that client. And it was a really great story. And so that was, that was how the momentum built. Yeah, I want to highlight that that's great. You You just need one good story, and then you tell that story. In my case, in my career with coaching entrepreneurs, that's what I did, is I located people who were well respected in the community, and I said, if I can help you, you just tell other people what we've done. And then that sort of caused everything to bloom and made it so much easier for me to find clients. So I love that principle so true, and so much of it is about finding someone you really click with. I'm sure this is true for you. I happen to be put in touch with someone who was a potential client, McKinsey. Someone thought, oh, Caroline will get on well with her. And you know, we're still in touch. We did such fabulous work together, and so much of that came from us clicking and understanding, oh, right, what you do, Caroline could be useful to me, Helen. And you know also what you do, Helen is absolutely fascinating to me, Caroline. And so, you know, it was a wonderful partnership for many years. I want to go back just a little bit and talk about how you specialized in healthcare. I think that there's a bit of a debate that people have going on in their heads when it comes to their career, or whether it comes to their customers that they're targeting, of whether I should be a specialist or a generalist. What's your perspective on that, having successfully grown a career by specializing in healthcare, I would say that I specialize in leadership, and I think that that is a kind of Swizz, because by specializing in leadership, I get to do everything, because leaders have everything on their plate. So if I specialize in leadership, I get to live all of their lives the variety of what's on their plates. I was always a jack of all trades. I always loved having loads of interests, and I really enjoy, you know, the experience of going wherever a leader needs to go. And so when I get the chance to work with a CEO, or someone, you know, who's at a senior 11 organization, I get to do everything, and that allows me to scratch the itch or really being interested in a ton of different things, while still, you know, saying, Well, I specialize in something which is leadership, yeah, well, that's A great discussion, and that's why I asked the question, because it's not a clean answer, right? There are different ways to do it. And what I like is you found a way to specialize, but specialize in a way that still allows you to generalize, right? There you go. That's exactly, right. That's exactly I feel like it's been a bit of a magic trick, actually. Yeah, all right, so let's, let's shift gears and go to the point at which you decided to found your own company. What led to that? And what were some of those early days like for you? I never saw myself as an entrepreneur. I grew up with not that much money at home, and so always wanted a degree of financial stability. So the idea that I would deliberately quit a good job and set up on my own was just something that I didn't think was me at all. And eventually, you know, there was this sort of tension between this desire for degree of stability and security and the increasing realization that I had a lot of energy to build my own coaching practice, and actually a lot of energy to build a bit of a portfolio life where I was writing more this had always been on the back burner, and I really wanted to give it more space. I really wanted to write a book about how to use behavioral science insights in real professional life, which was essentially what I was doing with all of my clients, showing them how to use neuroscience, psychology, behavioral economics. And, you know, I wanted space for that. I also quite like the idea of speaking. I started to speak of it. I'd been on a couple of radio. Shows. I've been doing some speaking at conferences, and I thought I quite like this. And so having the freedom to create that kind of portfolio was the pull that eventually gave me the courage to say, oh, okay, right, I might be about to reach escape velocity. Took a long time, but I got there, yeah, and I think that the hardest point for anyone who does this, any new entrepreneurial venture, is to get the first customers or the first client. In the case of being a coach, how did you get your first customers? The first customers actually came from my work at McKinsey, because I had been coaching for about eight of my 12 years there, so I had some momentum. I had a bit of runway and but then still, you've got the kind of technical factor of leaving and therefore not being able to take people with you, take clients with you. That's, you know, would be unethical. But what I did was I with my main client. I had enormous programs of work with them, and I just negotiated a big new training program, leadership training program. And so, you know, I talked with my senior colleagues at McKinsey and said, Look, you know, I am not how about I leave that with you, and then we will look at the piece, which is coaching the senior partners, and we'll figure out a way to do this collaboratively, and then eventually that ended up, you know, being something that we carved off. So it was a very lucky entry to being out on your own, because I was able to take some work with agreement, you know, from the place I'd previously been working, yeah, that's the key, isn't it? Is that they, they had your agreement, because there, there are ways to do that that are not ethical or appropriate. But it sounds like it worked out really well for you, yeah. And I was really, really cautious about wanting to do the right thing. I mean, the other thing I would say is that I started experimenting with not introducing myself as being a partner at McKinsey a year before I left, to try it on and to see what happened, and to start to answer the question saying I'm leadership coach. And that not only helped me kind of try on a new identity, but it also allowed me to actually start to tell people you know, where I was heading. And that was, that was very helpful, because it meant that I had a lot of practice by the time I left at saying what it was that I was doing. But it also, frankly, just got the word out, so I did a lot of preparation. Let's say I'm not a kind of person who makes big life decisions at the drop of a hat. I do. I am a preparer. I am a planner. I like that well, and it demonstrates that that is also a pathway that someone can take. I do think a lot of people jump into entrepreneurship without having planned and without having prepared it. So it's refreshing to see someone who actually was cautious and and prepared for it. Oh, that's nice for you to say. I mean, I, what I say to my clients when they're thinking about a change is I encourage them to run small experiments and not to go wholeheartedly into a new thing if they're not sure it's the right thing. You know, a lot of people think in a very binary way, I'm going to quit my job and then I'm going to try this other thing, which is very risky. But the way of de risking a big pivot, a big choice in your career, is to look for ways to experiment. So that was one of my ways of experimenting, was just, how about I put myself out in the world in a different way that actually didn't require me to have yet resigned, but it allowed me to really test how it felt. And I remember doing a radio interview and introducing myself as a leadership coach rather than being a partner at McKinsey. And I thought, oh gosh, they'll think it's terrible, and they'll think it's just very boring. And no, it was totally fine. The world didn't end. It was actually everything was all right. I didn't actually need the big brand to stand behind. And that was very helpful. Oh, I love that concept of running small experiments. I even have a thing on the wall that says, I'm just a scientist experimenting. I should not be surprised when my experiments fail. Just pleasantly surprised when they succeed. Now, I probably should change that to my hypothesis fail, but you get the idea, right? It's all learning. Yeah, we just give things a try and see what happens. And it's okay if it didn't work out the way that we thought exactly that. Yeah, talk to us about where the concept of how to have a good day came from. By the way, I love that title of your book. I also love the title that's you use that in your LinkedIn learning courses, which, of course, I'm a big fan of where did that whole concept come from? I was working on leadership with a bunch of clients who were really smart and interesting people, and it didn't really matter how big the job or how smart they were, there was just a lot of day to day stuff that was weighing people down. And, you know, by day to day stuff, I mean, you know, were they focusing their time on the right things? Were they did they feel like. Energized at the end of the day. Did they feel that their relationships at work were in good shape? And the more that the time went on, the more and more I realized I was spending time helping people on that and often, what was the breakthrough for me in working with people was showing them a little bit about how how their brain worked and how other people's brain works, so that they could understand that what they're experiencing came down to the science of why we think, feel and behave the way we do. And it was so much of an unlock, because often they would think, Oh, I don't know why this person is behaving like this. When I give them this kind of feedback and then to actually unpick it and to show them, oh no, this is because their brain is going on the defensive, and then you've got this fight, flight, freeze response, oh, and, by the way, you're on the defensive as you're doing it, so you and you're radiating this because, you know, there's emotional contagion, oh, and then there will be a breakthrough, and then we'd be able to kind of work on a different approach. And so I was doing this work year in, year out, and eventually, one of my clients, who was an avid reader, said, Have you got a book? Can you recommend a book that writes down all the stuff that we're doing? And I said, Well, you know, there's, there's Daniel kahnemans Thinking Fast and Slow, and there's Dan Ariely, predictably irrational. And she said, No, I've read those. I mean, the practical application of it, and that's what gave me the sense of, oh, actually, there could be a space for me, because I am in I am a translator. I translate primary research into practical application. And I think I needed that feeling that there was a need. I got some comments from various clients that they would have liked to book to back up what I was doing. So I thought, Okay, well, at least I can think of at least three people who might buy this book if I write, I had it, no kidding, I had a post it note on my desk saying, this is for Sarah, this is for Nyan. This is for Peter. I was like, Okay, well, this is, you know, this is for at least a few people. Oh, that's well, and if you're going to write a book, that's honestly the best way to write it. If you try to write it for everybody, you're going to be unfocused, and it's not going to come from as deep of a place, but when you're writing for just one or a few people, it's really easy to get to the emotional side of it and really dig deep on what's important. Yeah, and I think, you know, it's a good trick for anyone who's got a big, long project that's, you know, hard work is just to say, to keep in mind, who is it for? Who's going to benefit from this? Actually, you know, there's lots of evidence to suggest that that's actually a very good way of keeping yourself motivated, engaging the brain's reward system, is to keep in mind, you know what, what the benefit is and who's going to benefit so this is a an author to author question.

Dave Crenshaw: 38:43

Do you ever have not good days?

Caroline Webb: 38:47

If so, what principles do you use from it? Oh, my goodness, I'm walking this talk all the time. Of course, of course. I mean, if nothing else, we have bad days because of bad luck. I mean, there's lots of bad luck out there. You can have all sorts of things happen to you that are not ideal, and then the choice is, well, how do I respond to that? And I would say this has been the journey of my adult life. Is going from taking things very seriously and personally in my 20s to learning how to get more psychological distance from a situation, assuming good intent, recognizing that most people are really well intended. Everyone's doing their best. There are actually very few psychopaths in the world. It's a very small percentage. So if you're encountering, you know, behavior that's annoying or problematic, the chances are that someone's tired or something has put them on the defensive. And you know that understanding that however annoying someone some situation is, they're probably not trying to make it bad for you, is a game changer, I think, in assuming good intent. And then, you know, to back that up, you've got to then say, Oh, well, what be some stories that could explain their behavior? You know, maybe their cat vomited on them this morning. Maybe, you know, maybe they're worried about something that's going on in their family, and that's why they're being spiky with you, this person that's, you know, perhaps not giving you the greatest of days. And I find that I'm using these techniques of reappraising, as psychologists would say, reappraising what the story is. The apparent story is of what's in front of you, getting some distance and saying, in a year's time, what am I going to say when I look back on this and these distancing and reframing techniques, I'm using them every single day. Every time something doesn't go right. Is every day has something that doesn't go as you'd hope right, right, and some person who does something that you didn't expect or didn't want to have happen. But I think having that perspective that you just described not only helps you personally deal with it, but also helps you adopt a mindset of being helpful, of being compassionate and. Saying this is less about me and more about how can I help this person so that they have a good day? Absolutely, I can't tell you the number of times I've seen someone who's been frowning or has said something snappish, and I decide to adopt a stance of, you know, curiosity, love, if I can stretch to it, but certainly curiosity and say, okay, you know, looks like you're really busy. I've got a repertoire of things, you know, it looks like you're having a long day. And usually what happens is that there's a sort of loosening, a softening, in the other person. And, you know, they feel seen and heard. They might or might not open up to you, but it shifts the energy between the two of you very, very quickly to show curiosity and care. And yes, so time and again, it really is not just a good mental trick for yourself, but it does change the way that you have an impact on people around you. Yes, oh, that's really lovely. I'm glad you shared that with this. So unfortunately, we need to start wrapping things up, but I like to ask the question, what do you see ahead for yourself in the next five years? I understand you're working on a second book, correct? Yes, I'm not exactly snappy at getting books out into the world. I think this is going to come out in 2026 but yes, I'm writing a book specifically for leaders and managers to say what would be a neat little playbook that you could pick up for any situation that you're dealing with that is science based, and that gives you step by step guidance on how to handle that. So that's what I'm deep in right now and then. Alongside that, I'm coaching my wonderful clients and adoring, you know, the work with them and living multiple lives by being able to work with people in different industries. And I'm I'm going to keep on doing that basically, until I am unable to speak.

Unknown: 42:53

Oh, that's great. And in the meantime, what are you doing for fun? How are you keeping yourself entertained and refreshed when not working? Oh, there are lots of things I love to do to decompress and get my feet on the ground. I love gardening, and I've come to that somewhat late in life, but I love poking about in the dirt. I love singing, and a lot of the time I'm singing with the Cecilia chorus of New York, and we're performing big concerts at Carnegie Hall right now, I'm on hiatus because I'm trying to make Thank you. I'm trying to make big choices about creating space to work on the book, and so that's one of the choices I have to make right now, but, but I'll be back. As they say, I like making costumes. And yeah, I mean, you know, I think it's really important to pay attention to the things that give you joy and pleasure, and make sure you've got enough of that going through the days, you know, even at hard times, to know where you're going to get a boost, and to be deliberate about putting that in your day. Yeah? Really important. Yeah. So true. So this has been super helpful. Caroline, thank you for sharing this with us. This is the point in every interview where I like to help my audience find action, find something that they can do today or this week, right? Because you've shared so many wonderful things with us in your story, but I want to help someone actually do something about it. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to summarize just three. There were so many in here, but just three of the actions that stood out to me that anyone can can take, no matter what their age or where they are in their career. And then I'd like you to add one more after that. Sound good? You got it? Okay, so the first one, and this is, I admit, I'm a little biased toward this, but boy, it's helpful. Learn a little bit about economics. Just take some time and read about it. You can there are courses on LinkedIn, learning. You can look up something on YouTube. There are some wonderful books if you want to dive in deep. I actually have one on my shelf, basic economics. It's really good. Understanding a little bit about that helps you understand the world around you, helps you understand some of the big picture things that are taking place, and also some of the little decisions, the micro economics that lead people to make choices. Just learn a little bit about it, and I think it will educate some of the decisions that you make in your life and in your career. The second one, I really liked this, and we talked about it, and I've talked about the quote on my wall. Run small experiments. I have a thing that reminds me to test things out for a month. So if I've got some new idea in my business, I say, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with this for 30 days, and then I'm gonna stop and reassess and look at what the data is telling me. You don't need to drop everything. You do not need to quit your job quite yet. Give it a try for a month or two, reassess the data, and then decide if you're going to make the next step. I love that that Caroline brought that up, and then I'm going to highlight that principle that she said at the end from her book, How to Have a good day. Most people are.

Caroline Webb: 46:01

Trying to do their best. And think about that. Think about the last moment. It may have happened today or yesterday, where someone did something that you didn't like. Maybe it wasn't even on a personal level, you just saw someone do something silly in public. And ask yourself, I love Caroline. You said, what are the stories? What could be the story behind this? And just try to do that a little bit more. Assume that someone is trying to do their best, and maybe they were just having a bad day, maybe something caused them to do that. And I think if you start to incorporate that into your life, you'll be more compassionate, you'll be more patient, and you're going to feel a lot less stressed about the things that other people do. I love that Caroline. What's one that you would add to that list? One other that I could pick out from our conversation is the importance of knowing what it takes for you to get the best out of yourself, and being open with people about that. So in my case, is being clear when I'm at my best during the day, and that that's not early morning, and to be okay with talking to people about that, and maybe for you, it's that, you know the early morning is your precious time, and actually, you'd prefer not to have other people claiming the time for that reason. And I think, you know, we are a little shy sometimes of saying what it is that we need in order to be at our best. I think maybe we're getting better at it over the years, but a lot of people I meet still aren't super clear when their peak times are and how to sell that time to themselves and protect it, and the conversations they need to have with their colleagues and family in order to do that. Oh, fantastic. Thank you for sharing that with us, Caroline. So just a reminder to everyone, the book that she wrote is how to have a good day. You can also look up her courses on LinkedIn, learning that's web with 2b

Dave Crenshaw: 47:54

and Caroline, if someone wants to work with you or they want to follow you, what's the best place for them to go? My website is carolineweb.co

Caroline Webb: 48:04

that.co's at the end. There are lots of Caroline webs in the world. I have not got.com so come find me@carolineweb.co

Dave Crenshaw: 48:12

and send me a message there. I'll be delighted to hear from you great.co because you mean business, right. Ha, ha, ha, there you go. Thank you so much for sharing this with us, Caroline. Thank you for being here, and thank you everyone for listening. Remember, it's not just about the knowledge that you received or the inspiration that you felt, it's about the action that you take. So do something today or this week based on what Caroline shared with you, and you'll make her success story a part of your success story. Thanks for listening.

Unknown: 48:43

You've been listening to the Dave Crenshaw Success Show, hosted by my dad, Dave Crenshaw, and produced by invaluable incorporated research and assistant production by Victoria Bidez, Sound Editing by Nikic Wright, voiceover by me, Darci Crenshaw, and the music is by Ryan Brady via Pon five licensing, please subscribe to the Dave Crenshaw success show on Apple podcasts Spotify, wherever you like to get your podcasts. If you have a suggestion for someone my dad might like to interview, please send it to guests at Dave crenshaw.com and please don't forget to leave us a five star review. See you next time you.