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Faith, Freedom, and Founding Fathers
Jefferson Lies (Book)
Ever wonder why Thomas Jefferson and George Washington remain our most controversial founding fathers? In this eye-opening exploration of America's founding narratives, we unpack the deliberate attacks on these pivotal figures and why they're specifically targeted by those seeking to reshape America's identity.
The episode begins with a listener question about Jefferson's complex relationship with slavery - a perfect entry point to discuss how historical sites like Monticello now emphasize his slave ownership while minimizing his anti-slavery positions. David Barton, author of "The Jefferson Lies," explains how returning to original source documents reveals a very different Jefferson than the one presented in modern academia.
We dive into the famous DNA controversy surrounding Sally Hemings, with surprising insights from Robert F. Turner, the University of Virginia professor who conducted the actual tests. His conclusion? Among the 26+ Jefferson males who could potentially have fathered Hemings' children, Thomas Jefferson ranks among the least likely candidates - information rarely discussed in mainstream historical accounts.
The conversation expands to explore why Washington and Jefferson specifically face disproportionate criticism compared to other founders. The answer reveals a strategic approach: by discrediting America's most influential founders, one can more effectively undermine the constitutional principles and limited government vision they established.
As we approach America's 250th anniversary, this discussion couldn't be more timely. We explore forgotten resources about all 56 signers of the Declaration and the significant contributions of revolutionary-era women - stories once taught in American classrooms but now largely unknown. The episode concludes with a delightful explanation of how political parties acquired their animal symbols, with a special answer for a seven-year-old listener.
Join us for this fascinating journey through American history, where we separate myth from fact and restore the complex, inspiring truth about our nation's founders.
Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the Intersection of Faith and Culture. It's The WallBuilders Show on Foundations of Freedom Thursday. Still taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective, but you get to pick the topic. So send those questions to us, radio at wallbuilders.com. That's radio@Wallbuilders.com. Rick Green here with David and Tim Barton. All tough questions get tossed to them. Any easy ones, I might try to knock it out before I toss it to them, but okay. So first up, let's see, we've got a common question here. Much is said and written about the fact that Thomas Jefferson kept slaves, including some that he fathered, as in the case with many national historical sites during tours of Monticello, there seems to be an emphasis on this subject to discredit Jefferson and other founders of our nation, most of the information I find on the internet on Jefferson emphasizes his keeping of slaves. Conversely, while I understand that as a contributor to early drafts of the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson opposed slavery, this is rarely covered when he's discussed. Are there references available that provide a complete picture? Good, bad, and ugly on Thomas Jefferson, including links that can be shared when debating this subject. Thanks for taking time to read this. Appreciate all that you do, David, Tim, and Rick regards. Okay, so guys, I think somebody wrote an entire book on this. I'm trying to remember who that guy was. He had an interesting title for it, something about Jefferson Lies, and he was with some masonry company. You know, they built walls.
Tim Barton [00:01:28] Well, now you're going to make people think of the founding fathers being masons and now we're going to have a whole different myth to dispel.
Rick Green [00:01:34] That's next week, everybody. Send those questions in Masonry and the Founding Fathers. I didn't even think about that, Tim. You're right. So this guy that started this thing called wallbuilders, his name's David Barton. And I think probably the most controversial you've written a ton of books, David, but this one is, would you say this is the most controversial, the one you got the most pushback and created the most debate over the Jefferson Lies where you address everything that, uh, this listener was asking about.
Speaker 3 [00:01:57] Yeah, I think we addressed all that and we address it out of Jefferson's writings and those by contemporaries around him who knew him best, not by the progressive modernists that write about him today who don't like him. So we went back to original sources and that's what the controversy was because it reshaped the narrative away from what progressives have made him in the last 50, 60 years particularly. Even going back to 1999 when they came up with the DNA report that says Jefferson did it. He fathered slaves with Sally Hamings and the DNA report did not say that. So it really took a beating. I, it did not take a beating, I took a beating for having written that at the time, but the book has stood up and now there's a lot of other academics that have joined that, that core saying, no, Jefferson was not that there's no evidence that Jefferson had slave children with Sally Hamings, et cetera, et cetera. So there's so much there that pushes back, but if you get that book, the Jefferson Lies, it will equip you. For so much of the anti Jefferson stuff that goes and by the way it's only going to get worse when now in the two fiftieth because Jefferson is one of the I think the two greatest intellectual leaders and not just intellectual philosophical leaders is better I think George Washington, Thomas Jefferson are your two greatest founding father leaders they represent kind of the boundaries of founding father thought one on the anti-federal side one kind of on the federal side I think those are the two poles on the earth the North pole to south pole.
Tim Barton [00:03:22] I think it's also worth noting another really good source is an article by Robert F. Turner, it's titled was Thomas Jefferson America's First Abolitionist. Now, the reason this is a really good article, Robert F Turner was a professor at the University of Virginia for more than three decades. He was a history professor among other things, and he's the one that actually was a professor in charge, conducted the DNA test, going back looking at Jefferson's DNA and exploring the the question surrounding Sally Hemmings. Now, the reason all of that matters, in this article, he talks about Jefferson's very strong abolitionist position, gives context to looking at what the world was and even what Virginia was at that time and how Jefferson was a leader in shifting the narrative and the conversation, dad, as you mentioned, even some of these thoughts, this philosophical approach in an antislavery position. But one of the things that Robert Turner points out is one of the reasons people get Jefferson wrong, one of many reasons, but they point to the Sally Hemings thing and say, he fathered children illegitimately with a slave.
David Barton [00:04:29] And by the way, who is Sally Heming?
Tim Barton [00:04:32] Sally Hemmings is a, or was, one of these slaves that was at Monticello under Thomas Jefferson. And she has four children. Jefferson has been credited as being the father of those four children now. That's not what the DNA says for lots of reasons. There's only one child that has confirmed Jefferson DNA and not Thomas Jefferson but like from the Jefferson family. Robert Turner's the guy who did the DNA test and what they concluded is there were 20 I think was 27 possible.
David Barton [00:05:02] I was saying it's 26 but it could be 27 but it's over two dozen.
Tim Barton [00:05:05] Yeah, either way, it's a large number of, of potential possible, fathers from the Jefferson line, but all that to say what he concluded is that Jefferson is one of the least likely of those two have possibly been the father, but to go even deeper on this, he is openly invited, different professors or politicians or people that promote this agenda of, of Jefferson fathering children illegitimately with the slaves. He's challenged them to come have a debate. He says, look, bring your receipts, I'll bring my receipts. Let's bring the evidence and proof we have and let's have an honest conversation. And he points out even in this article that nobody wants to debate him on this because they would rather slander the name and memory of Jefferson than actually have a debates surrounding the facts of what historically was confirmed, what's not been confirmed, what's the most likely historically, what's even possible historically. But all that I say too, cause this article, again, the title of the article was Thomas Jefferson, America's First Abolitionist. This is not a very long article, whereas The Jefferson Lies has a lot of content and it's really good. I encourage you to get that book, read it, go through and see what the original documents say because so much of the accusation today, they don't derive from what the original documents say. They arrive at some conclusion and Professor Reach and they repeat. And recycle whatever that professor said. But this article, not very long, it's from one of the leading experts on Jefferson, specifically in this issue, because he's the guy that conducted the DNA test. And so as people are trying to navigate this, that as you mentioned, especially over the next year, there will be a lot of slander coming against the Founding Fathers as people like us wanna celebrate America, celebrate America's past and America's foundation. There will certainly be people that want to criticize and condemn and go against the founding fathers and certainly Jefferson and they will recycle and repeat a lot of false information. So this is an easy article to point to, in addition to the Jefferson lies, this one is short, it's online, not hard to find. Again, it is Robert F. Turner was Thomas Jefferson, America's first abolitionist. And it's another really good resource to dispel some of these modern narratives. And I say that with the full recognition that if you get the Jefferson Lies, which again, I encourage you to do, But if you say, hey, I was reading this book by David Barton, there'll be some people that will look up David Barton and go, wait a second, he's that guy on Wikipedia who is a pseudo-historian, you can't trust him. And we wouldn't ask you to trust us. We would say, here's the original documents. Just, just read this and see what they clearly said, see what they clearly did. So we've never really asked people to take our word for it. We've always tried to point them back to original source documentation, as opposed to what modern professors do. But the reason I point out this other article, is this is a guy considered like one of the Jefferson experts, one of guys who knows the most about Thomas Jefferson. And so when the guy who studies and knows him the most, and this is in the academic world, because I would say outside of, you know, these quote unquote academic circles, dad, I think you are certainly one of those guys that knows the most about Jefferson and you're studying your work and the research you did even for doing the Jefferson lies. But this article is another really great resource.
Rick Green [00:08:10] All right guys, so there's a lot there to cover with, uh, with Jefferson, but the most important question I have, this is very important. So I need both of you guys to put your heads together. Cause it's going to take both of us to answer this one. Is it Monticello or Monticell-o? Cause every time I look at it, I don't know what to say. And I know I'm going to say it the wrong way. And we're thinking about rebuilding it at the Patriot Academy campus. When we get done with the independence hall, I need to at least be able to pronounce it right guys.
Speaker 3 [00:08:30] Have you ever been to an orchestra and watched anybody play a cello?
Rick Green [00:08:34] No, I haven't. I did go see the piano guys, and they had some cellos, I mean cellos. Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly, cello. So it's cello, okay. And in all seriousness now, I gotta tell people, because I can say this maybe, Tim, you know, it's your dad that wrote the book, so maybe it's more biased when you say it, but I'm telling you people, this book is one of the most important things David ever put out, and it's so easy to read, and it so many of these subjects that you've heard, people try to sound so smart, well, what about the Jefferson Bible, and what about... He cut this up or he did that and David takes on every one of those. There's a reason that the left went ballistic when this book came out because it is so good at decimating those arguments and just a point by point by point with footnote after footnote, after foot note, after footnote. It's incredible. So get it. Jefferson lies. You can do that at a wobblers.com and, uh, in fact, to make a good present to get for any of those people that are asking you these kinds of questions. So I'm really glad this, uh this particular question came in today. Wobblers dot com to get Jefferson lies Gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back. You're listening to The WallBuilder Show on Foundations of Freedom Thursday. Welcome back to The WallBuilders Show hanks for staying with us. It's Foundations of Freedom Thursday, which means we're still taking on those hot topics of the day, like Jefferson and some of those big questions raised in the first part of our program today. The book available, of course, at WallBuilders.com. It's called The Jefferson Lies answers all of those questions. But anyway, we take on the hot topics to the day on Thursdays, but we let you pick the question. So thanks for that last one. This one is from Ryan says, hello, my name's Ryan. I love getting to the truth of our history and I have a question that is well, toward anyone who could answer it, but I would love to hear David's take. That's basically Ryan's way of saying, Tim, Tim and Rick, y'all be quiet, because I want David to answer. Thanks, thanks, Ryan. Appreciate it, man. Anyway, we're joking. Why are George Washington and Thomas Jefferson two of the most controversial founders? They were amazing, but revisionists seem to pin those two a lot more than most. Why is this? Thank you, and God bless. So Ryan, that's a great follow-up question to our previous question in the program, and throws Washington in there as well. Why are these two guys the most controversial, seems like?
David Barton [00:11:41] I think those two guys did the most to establish the original intent of what America is supposed to be under the Constitution, under the Declaration. And I'm going to say under the values of the Declaration and the specific guidance of the Constitution because those two documents cannot be separated. Jefferson himself made that exceptionally clear. You can't separate those two. So I think that those two come under attack the most because they most represent the philosophy that progressives hate. And if you can And by the way, those are also probably two of the most famous founding fathers. Nearly everybody would recognize Jefferson and Washington. There's a few others you could throw in there, but there's a lot of founders who believe the same. And if we started saying, well, how about Benjamin Russian, Richard Stockton? That doesn't carry the weight of saying George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. So I think those two are singled out because they are the ones that nearly everybody knows. And if you can discredit them, if you make them seem bad, then you can. Advocate for a completely different system in America, which is what progresives has been trying to do for a while socialistic Whatever it is big government. Neither one of those founding fathers wanted big government so I think they're they're under attack the most because they represent most what progresives is hate and what they want to see gone. And that's why I think there's so significant and I'm just gonna go out on a limb here So, you know as much as I love John Adams, he's not one of my favorite founding fathers Because while he was so great on making decisions, he was great on making the decision of Jefferson and Washington, so many other things, and helping move them forward in Congress. He was one of the most partisan guys among the Founding Fathers. And I think that kind of tarnishes him, particularly in his presidency, where he's doing anything that's Jefferson, he's gonna be anti-Jefferson, whether it's the right principle or not. And so, from that standpoint, I don't think John Adams rises to the same level as Jefferson and Washington, although he's indispensable, no question. But those two guys, that is the heart and soul of American Republicanism under the Constitution is Jefferson and Washington.
Rick Green [00:13:37] Do you think that is just, that's just the Marxist way, right? You have to tear down, if you're going to remake America, you got to tear down those people that had the most impact and then if you tear them down, then you can tear down whatever they say.
Tim Barton [00:13:48] I think so. I also think it's true that because Washington and Jefferson are some of the most noted, people have spent more time steadying them. And so it's easier to find things to criticize in them. You're not going to find many individuals finding things to criticize. You're going to have many articles criticizing, for example, Button Gwinnett or Elbridge Jerry, right? Or Richard Stockton, because people don't know who those individuals are, even though they signed the declaration, right? We can go down the list. The bottom line
Rick Green [00:14:16] I will say I will say I wrote an article criticizing Button Gwinnett for smashing the trigger because he hit the other guy in the duel in the leg. So clearly he mashed too hard to him you know what I'm talking about from our or gun classes.
Tim Barton [00:14:28] Was this before or after he had been shot himself? Because that might be the-
Rick Green [00:14:32] Well, they both kind of- It's kind of the same time, the only problem is they both mashed the trigger. So he got shot in the leg too, but his, his, infection killed him. So yeah, signer of the declaration dead within a year after the most people don't know about that, but I'm kidding. I didn't really write the article, but I did criticize him in a video once for mashing the trigger
Tim Barton [00:14:46] Well, but, but along those lines, right, most people don't know the other founding fathers, they don't their stories. And so the most noted founding fathers are the easiest to be criticized from people that want to criticize the founding father, the honest students of history are going to look and they're going to consider the, the era those individuals lived in, they're gonna consider the context, the time around them when, if you look in the 1700s, again, easy examples, what political leaders in the world start a movement against slavery? Well, it's the Founding Fathers. And today people look and go, well, the Foundings Fathers were all slaveholders. Well, first of all, no, they weren't all slave holders. And they did many incredible things, actually, to fight the institution of slavery, actually banning the slave trade, recognizing that for the great evil it was, arguing for the humanity of all that were enslaved. Right, you can go down this long list, but people look back and they see the shortcomings of the Founding Fathers because they don't judge in context and largely because they're not trying to be honest in the history. And this is not to say the Foundings Fathers didn't make major mistakes or that some of what they did wasn't incredibly wrong. But we used to understand when you read history, you read it in the context. And if you're living in the era of conquest and you're reading about someone who goes and they go to war and they conquer somebody or they're victorious in battle, you don't go, oh, they're so evil for going to war in the Era of Conquest. But because we are now divorcing the story from context because we're living far more, as you mentioned, in a Marxist era where people just want to find reasons to be critical of the people that we used to recognize. Were incredibly honorable, did great things, this is why they're the easiest target for the Marxists also because in modern academia, we continually see the goalposts moving where now it's if you have had slaves, you're evil, which just newsflash any political leader, any wealthy person in the 1700s, anywhere in the world, pretty much they had slaves. So this is not a unique evil from the founding fathers. And by the way, this not to justify that it's just, it's recognizing And that is honesty. Of saying we're going to say all the founding fathers were evil instead of saying, hey, what was happening in this time, it was a really evil, sinful thing that in this time it was accepted and thought normal to do this. But again, the idea is not to be honest purveyors of history or telling the truth. When it comes to the founding father's, it's a much It's a much more disingenuous approach because, in Marxism, their goal is to tear down those heroes, institutions, or great things that have gone before so that it can build something back in its place, and that's largely what we're seeing happen.
David Barton [00:17:21] And by the way, tomorrow is fourth of July, 249 years anniversary. It is wonderful. No nation has been that long under the same piece of paper as we've been under the declaration. And I want to back up the last Sunday. I was in Georgia last Sunday speaking at a great church there, Flat Creek Baptist Church, great congregation, great pastor. It was a blast. But what I did was I took the signers of the dec and said, you know, we're coming up tomorrow, Friday. This is our anniversary. And how many of these guys do you even know? And, you know, kind of. They they do know that they knew no Franklin and Jefferson I said well let me introduce you to the others and I just started going through the other names that they don't hear anything about Robert Treat Pain or Steven Hopkins or Samuel Huntington or Thomas McKean or all these and I went through and showed them the Documents and what they did what they wrote what their faith was how Evangelical most of these guys were and they've never even heard the names and I'm going through all the stuff showing what they didn't found in abolition societies, etc And at the end of the message, it was a standing ovation by the congregation. Now I recognize it's not for me what I said is for this is awesome information. I've never heard this. I'm excited about what I've heard. And that's where America is. They really don't know that story. And they've kind of put, put everything on one or two founding fathers, the progressive shoes to attack, but just as a little commercial here, we've got two books, one was reprinted nearly 175 years ago in 1848 called lives of the signers of the declaration of independence. Is a short four to six page bio on each of those 56 guys. We've got one of the wives of the signers. We don't even know the ladies that were involved in this thing. And that's two good books to get for tomorrow. And you won't have them by tomorrow, but my goodness, get them and read and see who these guys are.
Tim Barton [00:19:02] Unless you go to Audible or unless you get an ebook, which we have those available too. So shameless plug, yes, you can go get those right now. And by the way, guys, this is one of many things we're working on, even for the 250th, is we're work to do a convinced story form bio where we're gonna have a page and a half, approximately, maybe two and a have pages, on each one of the signers, telling highlight stories of their background, their childhood, their faith, their family, their accomplishments, some noted things about them, which actually, just so you guys know tomorrow on 4th of July, I do have some trivia questions for you guys based on some of what we're already finding in these stories to retell the founding fathers. But dad, to your point, we have reprinted some of these textbooks because saying textbooks is not incorrect. These were school textbooks that used to be school kids used to learn this history. We knew what the 56 signs of the declaration were. And so when people back then would have said something outrageous, most kids would have gone, okay, that's crazy. That's not true. We know who these guys are, we know their general belief and their ideology, their background, and you're saying that they were all anti-religious, or they wanted to separate from church and say that God shouldn't be part of government, right? Whatever some of these claims might be today, we used to be able to dispel those very quickly and easily because we knew who these founding fathers were, or even the contribution of women. And so some of this modern feminist claim, too, that women had no rights and, you if you knew the story of the women you would recognize how valued and appreciated and significant they were to the cause of liberty. And in fact, they were celebrated in many occasions too. But when we don't know the story, it's easy for the other side to shape the narrative in often very dishonest ways.
Rick Green [00:20:42] I just want to make sure I heard right. I don't want, I need to know whether or not to do my homework tonight. Did you say you're going to have trivia for us tomorrow and will there be any gift cards involved? I just wanted to know if I have my extra coffee in the morning, put the mushroom stuff in it, you know, make sure i'm ready tomorrow.
Tim Barton [00:20:56] Well, so we've definitely we've teased this week about we maybe we should have some questions for each other. And I was teasing that because I took it seriously. I was like, I, I want to talk to you guys about this. I want it to be challenged. I want a challenge. You, uh, Rick, I will be down with you at the, the, what is it? The national leadership Congress and so here's what I can say. And that it's just, that's a few weeks. Is that, that that's not that long away as a month or something. If you win, I will, I will bring you a gift card in front of all of the National Leadership Congress. I will get up and I will make a official presentation to the hero and winner that is Rick Green
Rick Green [00:21:38] And we have new tick-fil-a in Fredericksburg, just so you know.
Tim Barton [00:21:40] One of the last times I was there, they were they were doing construction. I went to pull in and they were like, Oh, we're not open yet. And it was one of the most misleading things. It was so frustrating. Chick-fil-A has never let me down so hard as when like you thought it was Monday or Saturday and it's really Sunday and you're like, no.
Rick Green [00:21:56] Yes, and it's the signs were all lit up and everything, but they were just working on them. Yeah, it was very disappointing. So our final question of the day comes from Ellis. He says, uh, dear Rick, David, and Tim, this is Ellis, age seven, guys, uh in Pennsylvania. I was curious why the Republicans have the elephant for their symbol and Democrats have a donkey. Elephants are cool and huge. And Jesus wrote a donkey, I appreciate you and your show. And I look forward to your response. Thank you, Ellis age seven wants to know. How the GOP came up with the elephant and how the Democrats came up with the donkey.
David Barton [00:22:30] Great, great question. Uh, I think most people in both of those parties would have trouble answering that for their own, quite frankly. So let's take the Democrats first because they came before the Republicans. The, the donkey comes up being the logo for the Democrats as criticism of what Andrew Jackson did. Andrew Jackson, Senator, the founder of the Democrat party. So he was doing some things regarding national banks. He, he didn't like national banks, which go back to early founding fathers like George Washington, but Andrew Jackson didn't liked George Washington anyway. So national banks he wanted them all wiped out. He wanted everything to go to local banks, what were called his pet banks. And he had certain banks that he was favor of, and he wanted to help them. And so what happened was a political cartoon came out in 1832 about that. And so this, this political cartoon showed them as a donkey stomping around among chickens.
Tim Barton [00:23:22] Now it's also worth noting that I don't think we're gonna have to go earmuffs on this for young kids, but it's worth noting. If you read the King James Bible, it doesn't say the word donkey. In fact, if you go to Webster's 1828 dictionary, doesn't say the world donkey, they use the, the other word, right. Like there was a Jack and a Jenny and like the King James word. And so mom and dad, like earmuff maybe for a second, it was a jack ass, and that was, that was the word for it because Again, King James, there was no word for donkey. That actually came about far more recently. And what's also worth noting is Andrew Jackson was known to be incredibly stubborn. And this was part of the idea of like the donkey, or again, like King James, different word for it. He was so stubborn that they said, that's who this guy is, right? He's this dumb, stubborn donkey who is going to do his own thing. He's not going to pay attention. And those that have been around animals. There are certain animals that definitely have certain character traits. It's that we've joked many times before, even on this program. It's not, it's not a compliment when Jesus or the Bible calls us sheep. If anybody's worked with sheep knows that's not a compliment to be called a sheep. Sheep are dumb. They always are messing up, doing the wrong thing. If you want them in the pen, try to keep them from getting in the pen because they're going to do the opposite of what you want them to do on so many occasions. Now it can be true that a sheep can recognize certain voices. And the voice of the one that feeds them, they might run to, yes, there's a lot of truth behind some of this. But again, generally speaking, animals were known for certain character traits. The donkey was known or King James, right? That, that animal was known for being incredibly stubborn and that was part of the origins of why it was associated with Andrew Jackson. He was this dumb, stubborn old donkey.
David Barton [00:25:10] Now for the Republicans, they were formed much later, two decades, more than two decades later. And as you get into the Civil War, it was generally Republicans were represented in the Union and Democrats were represented and Confederacy. And so as that happened, it got to be that among Republicans in the Northern States, they would talk about having gone to war. If you were a soldier and you'd gone to war and you've seen the fright frightful horrors of war. It's a big bunch of fear that you look at when you get out there and you're looking down a cannon or down a muzzle of a gun or whatever and they called it seeing the elephant and they would say have you seen the elephant in other words have you have you faced that great big fearsome thing in front of you have have you overcome the fear and so seeing the elephant and that got to be associated with republicans and so in 1876 thomas nass who's political cartoonist for Harper's magazine drew the the elephant as the Republican logo. And by the way, he's also, Thomas Nash is also the guy who gave us the images of Santa Claus that we now have today in use. So Thomas Nash, political cartoonist for Harper, he took the phrase, have you seen the elephant and turned it into an elephant for Republicans, and that's where they got their logo.
Rick Green [00:26:24] All right, you never know what you're going to get educated on on a Foundations of Freedom Thursday here on The WallBuilders Showand there's more of them at our website so go to wallbuilders.show and then tomorrow Good News Friday and the trivia questions come in rapid fire from Tim Barton so I'll be drinking extra coffee before tomorrow's show. Have a great evening folks we'll see you tomorrow on Good News Friday you've been listening to The WallBuilder show
