Faith on Display: The Ten Commandments Return to Schools- with Matt Krouse

https://restoreamericanschools.com/

The battle to restore America's religious heritage is gaining remarkable momentum as Texas joins Louisiana, Arkansas, and Kentucky in passing legislation to return the Ten Commandments to public school classrooms. This watershed moment marks a significant reversal of decades-long efforts to remove religious displays from public spaces.

For nearly 200 years, displaying the Ten Commandments in schools was standard practice across America until the 1980 Stone v. Graham Supreme Court decision changed the landscape. Now, thanks to a series of groundbreaking legal victories championed by First Liberty Institute and others, the pendulum is swinging back toward religious liberty. These recent Supreme Court rulings have established a "history and tradition" test that recognizes the historical significance of religious displays in public settings.

The Texas law, despite facing immediate legal challenges, remains in effect for the vast majority of the state's school districts. While a federal judge in San Antonio has temporarily blocked implementation in 11 districts that were part of a lawsuit, Attorney General Ken Paxton has made it clear that the remaining 1,188 districts are still required to display the Ten Commandments when they receive them—and his office will defend any district facing legal challenges.

Matt Krause from First Liberty provides valuable insight into the significance of this movement, describing it as part of a "golden age of religious liberty" that America hasn't experienced since before the 1940s. These efforts aren't introducing something new but rather restoring what was once common practice—recognizing the Decalogue as a foundational document in Western legal tradition and an important historical context for understanding American jurisprudence.

You can be part of this historical restoration. Through organizations like Restore American Schools, you can sponsor Ten Commandments posters for classrooms at approximately $1.50 each. Visit RestoreAmericanSchools.org today to help reconnect students with the historical foundations of American law and governance.

Chapters

• 0:00 Ten Commandments Return to Classrooms
• 3:16 Legal Challenges Begin in Texas
• 8:32 First Liberty's Specialized Legal Expertise
• 13:21 Interview with Matt Krause
• 19:22 Implementing the Law Despite Challenges
• 23:40 Getting Involved with Restore American Schools

Transcript

Rick Green [00:00:07] This is the intersection of faith and culture. Thanks for joining us today on the wall builder show. Matt Krause from first Liberty will be with us a little later. A lot of action on the 10 commandments. Getting back into classrooms across the country. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. And David and Tim, of course, y'all been testifying on these bills across the country, we got several of them passed, but of course lawsuit after lawsuit, here comes the law fair and we've got one now in Texas. I'd seen one in Arkansas a week or so ago, but now we got one in Texas and looks like the folks at First Liberty are on top of it as well. But looks like we'll have to fight this in the courts while we fight it at the local level with the school district. 

Tim Barton [00:00:45] Yeah, and to be clear, this was expected for those listening, obviously internally, we all know this, but it was expected that when you do something that challenges the status quo, especially when it's something pertaining to religion, there's gonna be groups like the ACLU, like the Freedom From Religion Foundation, et cetera. We can go down the list of these different organizations that exist to try to make America secular and keep America secular. So it's no surprise. That when you have states doing what now, legally and constitutionally, they can do of going back to what was the historic, the traditional position, in this case, of displaying the Ten Commandments in public schools, what was known as the Decalogue with the basis of law in Western civilization, the Western Hemisphere, certainly the basis of law in America. This was very standard stuff, it shouldn't be controversial, but we knew when these we're going to pass these laws. That there would be legal challenges. And of course, First Liberty, some of our very good friends who have been helping lead the way on a lot of this. The reason that we are now in a position in America today to actually restore some of the things that have been lost is because of the work of groups like First Liberty. Some of the big decisions they had at the US Supreme Court over the last five and six years that have led to the change in the way the legal standard is perceived today, that allows us, again, to restore some of this foundational stuff. It's a little sad that First Liberty is not more involved in some of these state challenges because by and large, the attorney generals, the solicitor general, some of the different legal teams from the states have determined that, not to downplay or badmouth any of these legal individuals, but these states have determine that they didn't necessarily need the help from First Liberty, even though First Liberty would gladly give that and in that might be very correct that they are going to do a great job without it, but when you have a team that wins almost every case they get and they've been winning at the US Supreme Court on all these issues, it makes sense you to have them on your team without any more kind of misdirect or rabbit trails on that. It's still worth acknowledging First Liberty has been a major leader on this. We've been working to do this and we are now at a place where we expected to be where there are secularists who are challenging this position, but we think constitutionally it's certain. 

David Barton [00:03:11] Will be upheld. And when you look at what's going on with the court here in Texas and with the arguments from the attorney generals, having what we talked about First Liberty, they're legal experts in this but they're more than experts, they are specialists and it's like in medicine. You can be a great family doctor but if I'm going to have brain surgery, I'm not going to a family doctor, I'm go into a neurosurgeon to get it done. I want a specialist, I want somebody who does nothing but that. So I wouldn't go to First Liberty if I was doing an immigration case on whether the state has. The right to close borders, that's not their expertise. They are specialists in this, and every single attorney general is a general practitioner. They're the ones that have to do all sorts of laws, hundreds of laws a year that get passed in their states. They've gotta be able to defend some of all of it, but when it comes time to win, you want a specialist who can really do the right stuff, the right argument, that they win all the top, the higher levels, and that's where First Celebrity has. But now, kinda backing up even this. Rick you're right, Texas got the law passed and now this judge has jumped in and there's a few things that are of interest here I think this judge is doing what judges should do, not that he got the right decision, but in this case there is a suit filed there's twelve hundred or so school districts in Texas and you're looking at roughly eleven in San Antonio that have been told by judge you can't post the ten commandments here, why eleven? Because only those 11 schools objected and that judge is only a judge in San Antonio. He's not a judge over Dallas or Fort Worth or El Paso or Arkansas or anywhere else. And so this thing of judges issuing huge restrictions, that's just not in his purview. He at least stayed within his geographic purview 

Tim Barton [00:04:53] And it's also, dad, worth pointing out, that the groups that are bringing these legal challenges, they're strategically picking areas in districts where they know the judge they're going to be before. And I'm not saying this as an overly large criticism, because this is a strategy that you would implement. If you want to win something, if you can bring up a lawsuit where you are in a district where you know, you have a favorable judge for your position. That's a good strategy. This is certainly what they've done. They found a place where there was a very liberal judge who they really believed they were going to have the support of the judge on their position, but this is where we can go back, you know, Rick, I've heard you, dad, I heard you talk about kind of form shopping where oftentimes they're, and it's what we saw even under president Trump, where some of these legal challenges from these various states, they would go to a very, very liberal leftist judge who hated president Trump. They would bring the challenge against president Trump and this judge at times outside the purview of what they even should be doing. Would rule against President Trump just to try to be a disrupter for what President Trump was doing. That's not quite the same thing in this case. I don't think the judge is trying to be... 

Rick Green [00:05:59] Actually, Tim, I think you're spot on, brother. I think it's very similar to that from the standpoint of, you remember how those single district federal judges were trying to apply those injunctions to the whole nation to try to stop Trump, and the Supreme Court said, you know, this has got to stop. In this case, it's just for the state, but it's for the whole state of Texas is what the left would like to see this case actually turn into. But like y'all said, I mean, this judge is only applying it to those districts that in his in his, you know, in his purview within his within his district and the ones that were actually plaintiff. So no, Tim, I think you're right on. I think that's exactly the right analogy. 

David Barton [00:06:35] This is actually, Rick, you'd mentioned, but this is the third state that's passed a law in the 10th commandments. First is Louisiana, second Arkansas, third is Texas, and actually there's a fourth state, but they didn't pass the law because they had one from back in 1980, and that was Kentucky. They're the ones that had the Supreme Court case where the Supreme court said, hey, we think it's time to take the 10 commandments down a historical basis. And so that law is still there. And so Kentucky is going back to explain it. So up before states. But Texas should have been number one in this list. Uh, literally two years ago, we had this thing passed through the Senate and we had a house speaker that was more Democrat than Republican that stood in his way and killed this in the final days. And so this should have done with two years ago, gone through the courts. And now with this district judge in San Antonio saying, no, you can't do this, this is on its way to a three judge panel and the fifth circuit. And depending on how they rule, it may go on bonk in the fifth circuit. So we'll see, because in Louisiana, um, it went to the fifth circuit. They're, they're one of the three states in the fifth circuit court of appeals and Louisiana, the three judges and the, and the fifth circuit ruled against Louisiana displaying the 10 commandments, but they were three of the most liberal judges out of the 19 or so then in the fifth circuit, so now they're asking for en banc, which means the whole group, so they're going to try to take that Louisiana law in front of all 19 or So judges, and we should get a good decision out of that. We'll see what the three judge panel looks like in Texas. So there's a lot of procedures yet to come, but as Tim said, none of this is a surprise. Every bit of this was known from the time that bill was filed months ago, right? Right after the start of the year, knew this moment was coming. And so there's no surprise here, but there is the good news is that we got lots of great allies that helped with this, that testified on this. Matt Krause is one of the guys who testified with us on this, he represents that specialist group, First Liberty. Talked about that. You know, these kind of, like we said, are the brain surgeons. These are the guys that really are specialists in this. And so he has a really good perspective on what we think might happen with this law. 

Rick Green [00:08:39] Well, we'll take a quick break, guys, and when we come back, Matt Krause from First Liberty will be with us. We'll get an update on this case in Texas. Stay with us, you're listening to The WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:09:52] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Our good friend, Matt Krause with us, former Texas legislator, commissioner now in Tarrant County, Texas, a lawyer, extraordinaire, and just an all-around great guy, hey brother, great to have you back, man. 

Matt Krouse [00:10:04] Hey, it's great to be back. Thanks for having me. 

Rick Green [00:10:07] Well, bro, you're still on the front lines, of course. And whether it's legislatively getting the 10 commandments back into schools or at courthouses or wherever it is,  just seems like a lot of progress is being made this year. And I mean, you've been sowing seeds on this for years and years. But it looks like some good stuff in other states as well but what do you think about that the. Texas effort to get the ten commandments back 

Matt Krouse [00:10:27] Yeah, I think it's huge and thanks to the good work of First Liberty Institute and others and that Kennedy case where the Supreme Court has now put in a history and tradition test, it's allowed these doors to be flung wide open and so it's kind of the best environment we've had for religious liberty in a long time and Senator Phil King and Representative Kenny Noble here in Texas did a great job of pushing this issue this last session, getting it to the governor's desk and getting it put into law. So very exciting and and it's neat to see how these seeds that have been planted for a long time is really starting to grow. 

Rick Green [00:11:02] And of course, Matt, this is, you know, this at the heart of the, what we have called for decades, the culture war or whether or not we're going to be a nation that, that recognizes right and wrong and some moral absolutes. The 10 commandments cases has been a big one since 1980 with, with Stone V. Graham and so we don't expect the left and those that want God out of the equation to just lay down and, and give up. So we pass this bill and now all of a sudden you got, you know, lawsuits everywhere trying to stop it from happening. 

Matt Krouse [00:11:30] That's right, which is crazy, right? As you just pointed out, it wasn't until 1980, Stone v. Graham, where the Supreme Court said, yeah, you really can't have the 10 Commandments hanging up in our classrooms and in our schoolhouses. So we had about 200 years before that where that was okay. And so it's amazing that the opponents of these kinds of policies think that history stops really in the last part of the 20th century and don't understand the first two centuries before that and how America was founded. And how we live for so long, but yes, they're throwing everything that they can at it to keep the progress from being made to going back to what America historically did. 

Rick Green [00:12:09] Is this in any way similar? You know, Alito really gave the history on abortion in the, in the Dobbs case, you know, and basically said that we didn't have this. We didn't had to have this before, uh, the early seventies. There was no rich tradition of this. This is kind of the opposite. In this case, you can say we did have this before the court kicked it out. We had, like you said, 200 years, even though for the last 40 or 50 years, people raised in a, you know, certainly in public schools, but, but even in the a lot of times. They just thought this is the way it's always been because I didn't they don't know the history of of the Ten Commandments having such a rich impact. How hard will it be to educate if I can say it, the judges in this case to these things. 

Matt Krouse [00:12:51] That's right. It's going to take a while because a lot of these judges have either grown up and gone to law school, had their professional careers under this whole framework of kind of hostility to public displays of religion and Kelly Shackleford and others at Liberty or first Liberty say one of the most fun things that they get to do is make publishers of law school textbooks have to do new additions, some of many of their cases in just the last couple of years. Have totally upset precedent that had been on the books 40, 50, 60 years. And so it's gonna take a long time, not only for the public to understand these changes, but the lower court judges as well. Luckily, we right now have a Supreme Court that has very much shown a willingness to go back to those days of religious liberty. And so they'll have the final say, especially on these 10 commandments issues. And when they do, we feel very confident that they're gonna come down on the right side. 

Rick Green [00:13:46] So break it down for us as far as just kind of the timeline or even the steps here. The legislation passed, of course, back in the spring, and then this lawsuit happened. And so this court, I guess, is it San Antonio where- San Antonio? Yeah, okay. So now is that a federal court or is that state court? 

Matt Krouse [00:14:04] It's a federal court, now what everybody says, oh man, the Texas law got struck down and now the 10 Commandments won't go up. No, and as you teach folks all the time, the courts have to stay within their proper jurisdiction and they can only rule on the cases or controversies that come in front of their court. And so there were about 11 or 12 school districts that had gotten sued in this federal court case. And so when this judge, this Clinton-appointed judge, who ruled that the Ten Commandments law was unconstitutional and put in enjoying the law from going into effect. When he did that, he only did that for about 11 or 12 school districts in the state of Texas. Texas has about 1,200 school districts. So for the other 1,188, 1, 189 school districts, come September 1st, the law still goes into effect, and so I think that's a big distinction we need to make clear with folks is that yes, this one district court struck down that law. But only for those 11 or 12 school districts. Everywhere else in Texas can continue to put up the 10 Commandments and do it according to state law. 

Rick Green [00:15:09] Well, I'm confident you guys have first Liberty going to end up winning that in the long run, but that's such an important point. What you said were only paused in those 11 or 12 school districts, everywhere else move forward, get the 10 commandments in those schools, be a part of this team that is getting this on every campus across the state. And like you said, I mean, it's over a thousand school districts where you can actually do that. I'm guessing this is probably a multi-year battle for those 11 or 12. Uh... Districts are do you think this is something something maybe the fifth circuit rule on faster could go to the supreme court fast 

Matt Krouse [00:15:42] I'm hoping that this Fifth Circuit will move a little faster than they did in the Louisiana case. As I'm sure a lot of your listeners know, Louisiana had a similar tight bill last year and it's already been through the district court process up to the Fifth Circuit. Already had a ruling there and now it looks like it's going to go before the entire Fifth Circuit to get another ruling and then ultimately probably up to Supreme Court. So now that the fifth circuit has already looked at this issue once. I don't know whether they'll consolidate cases or they can move a little quicker on it because each state has a little different policy. So the fact patterns are a little difference. So they may be a little hesitant to just consolidate them all and keep them going on separate tracks. But I'm hoping the fifth circuit takes it up, takes it pretty quickly and gives an opinion which will just help accelerate it ultimately to the spring core. 

Rick Green [00:16:31] You know, uh, without, uh necessarily getting too far in the weeds, a lot of the groundwork that took years and years and ears to what felt like novel legal concepts with regard to religious liberty, but again, was going back to the rich tradition. A lot of that work's already been done. Obviously coach Kennedy case was what? Nine years, um, to, to get that done. And, and a lot these other cases. So instead of having to convince even the Supreme court to go back 40 or years and fix things. It's really just reminding them of what they just did just last year or year before last or whatever. So that does seem like it should be. I don't want to say easier, but you know what I'm saying? It's like, if I feel like the table set for us here. 

Matt Krouse [00:17:12] No, you are exactly right. I mean, going back to the Dobbs decision, which overturned Roe v. Wade, it was such a monumental decision because they were, they really wasn't cases that were leading up that were showing the blueprint for overturning Roe V. Wade. And so that was kind of a shock to the system. Here, you just laid it out perfectly. Ever since 2019, which was another first Liberty case, the American Legion case where you had the Bladensburg Cross in Maryland, where they were deciding whether they had to take that down or not, that war memorial. And the Supreme Court said, no, no no, we have a rich history and tradition of putting up these war memorials, even if the religious symbolism, we're going to keep that there ever since 2019, we've just gained ground, gained ground gained ground and gained ground. And I think if you ask most legal scholars, if these cases get up to the Supreme court, they will tell you because of the Supreme courts test that they promulgated just in 2022. That the Ten Commandments have a really good chance of winning. And so, like you said, this isn't a big step. This isn't monumental shift. It's actually just a continuation of what they've been telling us for at least the last seven, eight, nine years. 

Rick Green [00:18:18] Yeah, it feels like for the first time in a long time, the odds are in our favor. It just feels like a totally different ballgame. 

Matt Krouse [00:18:26] That's right, that's right. And elections have consequences. Your president matters, your Senate matters. To have these judges, justices that we put on the Supreme Court in the last 10 or 11 years, it's made a huge difference in giving us this opportunity to kind of have this golden age of religious liberty here in America that we have not experienced since before really the 1940s. 

Rick Green [00:18:47] Well, so much of what we're experiencing is because of First Liberty and the efforts that you guys have made over the years and the victories at the Supreme Court. There's just so many good things happening. So I want to encourage people to visit the website, firstliberty.org, get on the email list, make a contribution today. Keep these folks fighting for us on the front lines. Matt Krause, thank you for being a hero, man. We appreciate you. God bless you. 

Matt Krouse [00:19:10] Thanks for the work you're doing. Keep it up. Appreciate all that you're doing for the cause of Liberty. 

Rick Green [00:19:14] That's Matt Kraus, stay with us folks, we'll be right back with David and Tim Barton. 

Rick Green [00:20:24] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Thanks to Matt Krause for joining us. And, as I said, man, just being one of those great warriors, I always call him a happy warrior because he's always got a smile on his face when he's fighting these battles, but, uh. But guys, you know, David, you alluded to this earlier, uh you know first Liberty is they're not just experts, they win and they've won so many times at the Supreme court and, and at the local level as well. And so I'm glad they're somewhat involved. I would love it if they were league council. Uh, we'll see where it all goes. And, and to your point earlier as well, you know, do we end up getting before the entire fifth circuit? I think what people need to know is, like you said, this is not a surprise. We're prepared for this battle and all those districts across the state that aren't one of those 11 within that San Antonio area, they can still do the Ten Commandments. 

David Barton [00:21:08] Yeah. And that's the deal on this. This is not as the cup half empty or half full. This cup is as full plus a lot more in the standpoint that you've got roughly 1100 and 85 districts that by law need to be displaying the 10 commandments. And the attorney general, Texas, Ken Paxos come out and said, look, if you're not one of those 11 districts, the law requires you to put up these 10 commandments when you receive them. And so there's the website, restoreamericanschools.org. And that's where people are able to contribute a buck, a poster, a school for 30 bucks, you can sponsor a school, 30 classrooms. And if they get those 10 commandments, they have to put them up in that class and that school. 

Tim Barton [00:21:47] And just one point of clarification, I do think working with some of the team behind the scenes, I do thing it's gonna end up being more like $1.35 to $1 50 per poster eventually because of shipping. Just real point of clarity, the poster itself is a little under a dollar, but because of the shipping costs, I think they're gonna end up raising it a little bit. But still, if you're talking $1 25, $1 35,$ 1 50 per classroom, that's something that's not overly difficult for a family. An individual for a Sunday school class to come together and make sure that all the schools or all the classrooms in their school district in that town is covered. And one of the other things I think is worth noting too as we can kind of go back and reflect a little bit on what dad you were referencing with the attorney general Ken Paxton telling all the other school districts they're required to put these up. One of the great things about the way the law was written in Texas, and we have known so many of these legislators in these states that have been working on this Every state has a different strategy and they have different parts that they will put in their laws based on what they think is best for their state. But I so appreciate one of the things Texas did was to make sure that the attorney general, it was written in, they would defend in whatever case legal challenges there was. And the reason that matters is because in some states, one of the challenges, for example, in Arkansas is that the attorney The general is defending... The challenges based on the school districts that are already part of that challenge and the attorney general there has said that if any other school at this point chooses to do something they do so at their own risk because the attorney general of arkansas might not defend them in that legal challenge in texas it's the exact opposite where ken paxton has made very clear that we will defend any school every every school the reason he can say with such boldness and confidence every school go ahead and put these up is because they're going to defend any school district that gets challenged. And the reason this matters is one of the things the other side uses so often to try to prevent the honest presentation of a history and tradition filled document like that's in commandment. They use a fear tactic saying, well, if you do this, we're gonna sue you. And it's gonna bring all this lawfare against you is gonna be a major problem. There should be a lot of freedom. For a lot of school districts, whether it be a superintendent, a principal, whoever it is, when they recognize that we are legally covered and protected and we should be doing this. And this is something we have seen as even around the Dallas 4th area, a lot of people we know have been distributing posters and the majority of schools have been putting these posters up in their classrooms. But there are a couple of schools that we know very well that have yet to put up those posters. And it's certainly because of the ideology of the superintendent, the principal, they're not supportive of what in their mind would be the promotion of religion or even the freedom of religion. They think the Ten Commandments is a religious document. Therefore, we shouldn't let students see the Ten commandments. That's their position, but they're hiding and cowering behind, or I don't know, cowering behind is the right word. They're hiding behind this idea of we don't want to get sued, which of course, Ken Paxton alleviated. So there's a lot of really great things about the way the Texas law was done. As we pointed out already, that this was not a surprise. We knew this was gonna be a legal challenge and this is something actually that could be very beneficial as a legal challenge because ultimately there's gonna be a lot of people saying you're not allowed to until there is greater clarity brought to this that affirms what we think the US Supreme Court will affirm that you are in fact constitutionally 

David Barton [00:25:21] allowed to display the Ten Commandments. And by the way, Ken Paxton kind of made this a two-edged sword as the Attorney General. He said, hey, I'm going to defend any school that puts these up. Oh, but by the, the way you are going to put them up. State law requires you to put them up, you're not going to sit on the sideline and wait for a result. You have to put them, up that's required by state law. So that's the other side of that two-edge of sword. You got to put him up, but when you put them off, I'll defend you if anybody comes after them. 

Rick Green [00:25:47] I was thinking just like you Tim, this is actually a good thing. In fact, when that first judge stopped the Arkansas one for a little while there, I guess that was still going on but I was like, okay, praise the Lord you know, count it all joy when you experience various trials because actually, these trials are going to be used to make us persevere and do even better and like you said, clarify the law and eventually this will get all the way to the Supreme Court I'm sure, which will be good because then the whole country will realize they can put the Ten Commandments in their schools and of course this is one of our twelve steps for restoring America and rebuilding America. Is to get the Ten Commandments back in our schools. So this is a great way for everybody to get involved. Restoreamericanschools.com, restoreamericancools.com so you can donate and sponsor a classroom or two or 10 or 12. You can also, if you're in one of those states that's passed a law, you can be part of actually, you know, kind of bird dogging that school, talking to that school district, talking to those principals, making sure that they're getting those Ten Commandment up. Thanks for being a part of it. Restoreamericanshools.Com. Thanks for listening to The WallBuilder Show.