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The WallBuilders Show
Navigating Grief and Truth in a Divided Nation- with Pasto Allen Jackson
Pastor Allen Jackson of World Outreach Church joins the WallBuilders Show to offer spiritual wisdom for navigating today's increasingly hostile cultural landscape. In this powerful conversation, Jackson frames current events as divine "shakings" – COVID exposed institutional corruption, October 7th revealed hidden anti-Semitism, and Charlie Kirk's assassination represents Christian martyrdom in 21st century America.
Jackson delivers a stirring challenge to believers who have remained silent in the face of growing hostility toward biblical values. "We've made too many friends with evil and built too many bridges with wickedness," he warns, urging Christians to overcome the timidity that has allowed faithful voices like Kirk's to stand alone on the frontlines. With piercing clarity, he introduces the concept of "trans Christians" – those who identify as believers on Sunday while living contradictory lives throughout the week.
The pastor places current events within the historical context of Christian persecution, reminding listeners that suffering for faith is nothing new. From Isaiah being sawn in half to Stephen's stoning, the Bible contains numerous examples of martyrdom. His provocative question cuts to the heart: "If they came hunting Christians, would your Christian reputation put you at the top of the list?" For those remaining comfortable and inconspicuous, he asks, "If you're not willing to be an advocate for Him in the face of threat, why do you think He's going to come looking for you?"
As discussion turns toward the spiritual awakening many believe is occurring, Jackson distinguishes between crowds and genuine revival. True revival, he explains, produces transformed lives and measurable cultural change. He emphasizes fundamentals: daily Scripture engagement, authentic community, and obedient living – moving beyond mere identification with Christianity to genuine discipleship.
Join us for this timely conversation that challenges believers to stand firm in biblical truth without apology. Share this episode with someone who needs courage in these uncertain times, and subscribe for more discussions at the intersection of faith, culture, and biblical citizenship.
Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the Intersection of Faith and Culture. Thanks for joining us today on the WallBuilders Show. It is Thursday, and normally that's Foundations of Freedom Thursday, but if you're a frequent listener, you already know, we did that yesterday. So it's Constitution Day yesterday. What a great foundational topic to have a great discussion on. And we just couldn't wait till Thursday to do that. So we did it yesterday. So Wednesday was Foundations of Freedom, Thursday on a Wednesday. Today on Thursday, we're gonna do a regular Wednesday program. And Pastor Allen Jackson will be with us a little later in the program to talk about all that is going on. I'm Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton, and of course you guys know Pastor Jackson. I think, Tim, you just spoke there recently, and my pastor loves him, man. In fact, my pastor's headed out there to a conference to Pastor Jackson's church next week. So anyway, it would be great to have him on and just get some more spiritual insight to how to deal with all the things that are happening in our country.
Tim Barton [00:00:54] Yeah Pastor Jackson is an absolutely incredible man of God. He's somebody that when I was first around him and as I say this it's gonna make I'm saying this in my brain like thinking I'm younger than I am because I was gonna say the first time I was around him you're like dude he's the grandpa that you just. Would love and want to hug. And I'm realizing now he's probably like 20 years older than me. So right. Apparently, I think I'm still 12 or 15 or something. I don't know. But he is just this incredibly kind, loving man, but he's so unapologetic for the truth of the word of God. But the way he presents it, it's the guy that smacks you upside the head for being dumb and then looks at you with love and you're like, I think you hit me, but I think I like you for it, right? Like you're just, I don't even know how to process. He is, he's so great as a pastor and he has been a leader in so many ways. He has a very large church, World Outreach Church in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. I've been very honored and blessed to be able to go and be with him a couple of times, speak at a church. And he is someone in the midst of all that's been going on. You know, guys, we talked about it and maybe we should even do it again tomorrow. Just having a pastoral perspective as we're navigating, you know, some of what's happening culture and maybe even, um, I don't know if we'll get into it today, maybe tomorrow we can ask the question of how do we navigate with You know, maybe pastors, should they be speaking to this? Should they not? What's appropriate? What do we do? Because there's a lot of people now saying, man, if your pastor doesn't speak up about this, find a new church, it might be interesting to hear from some very strong leaders in the faith who've been pastors for a long time, some perspective, but especially as Christians, we're navigating hurts and we're navigation loss and we are processing what is the next step. How do we go forward? I can't think of many pastors that I would rather have coach and counsel me on this and Pastor Alan Jackson
Rick Green [00:03:02] Amen. And Tim, your point is so well taken that, um, you know, this is, uh, this is grief that, that a lot of people are going through. Even people that had didn't know Charlie Kirk or didn't know the girl on the train and, and some of the other things that have happened, they're grieving for the culture even. And the fact that we're at this point in the nation and, and for all of us that knew Charlie or even just worked in and around, uh this arena. There is a definite grieving. It's just, it's just it is such a tragedy. And then to your point, what's the church's role? What is our role as individuals in terms of how to respond to this as well? So it is literally, like you said, spiritual guidance for these things. So excited to have Pastor Alan Jackson stay with us, folks. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. You're listening to The WallBuilder Show.
Rick Green [00:04:49] Welcome back to The WallBuilder Show. Thanks for staying with us. Great to have Pastor Alan Jackson with us from World Outreach Church in Tennessee. Pastor Jackson, thanks so much for coming on, brother. Appreciate it, man.
Pastor Allen Jackson [00:04:58] Well, it's my privilege, Rick. Good to be with you today.
Rick Green [00:05:01] Well, I got to tell you, uh, my pastor loves you. Jimmy Pruitt, uh over here in Fredericksburg, Texas, and loves coming out there and spending time with you and, and, uh anyway. So it's great to have you. It's the first time you and I have got to, got to visit, but I've heard so many good things about you and thanks for putting up with crazy guys like Tim Barton coming out. You know, I guess you know, if you gotta have somebody come speak, Tim's your guy.
Pastor Allen Jackson [00:05:22] We're trying to help Tim learn some history, so every time we get a chance, we take advantage of it.
Rick Green [00:05:27] Yeah. And, and get him over his nervousness. We're going to get up in front of a room, you know, can actually talk to people.
Pastor Allen Jackson [00:05:31] Well, and stop speaking so slowly. We're trying to help you pick up his cadence.
Rick Green [00:05:35] That slow Texas draw, you know, that you've never heard from a Barton ever or a Green anyway. Hey man, it's a, it's tough to have joy in, you know, these trials, but we know when James were supposed to do that and, and Tim and David both thought, man, let's get Allen on to just give us some perspective on the nation right now. And as Christians responding to these These seismic events that are happening and man, the harvest that's happened. Oh, there's so many things I want to ask you, but first just your take on the times that we're in and the historic things that are happening.
Pastor Allen Jackson [00:06:07] Yeah, I think that's such an important question. If we take a step back just a bit, you know, Hebrews talks about God said once more, I'll shake the earth so that those things that can be shaken will be revealed as temporary. And my opinion COVID was a, an episode of shaking and things got revealed that I didn't expect before COVID, I trusted the CDC before COVID, trusted the AMA before COVID I trusted the teachers unions to care about students. And in that shaking, some of those things got exposed, but there was good that came out of it too. I think our schools are getting better. I think that people that are in churches today are more committed to churches. There were good things that came outta the shaking. I thought October the seventh, the attack of Hamas on Israel was another tremor in that shaken. I understood the threat to the Jewish people. I was not prepared for the anti-Semitism that exploded in America. It wasn't new, it had been latent, and I wasn't aware of it. So I think in that shake, God revealed something to us. I think Charlie's assassination, we have a Christian martyr in America in the 21st century. That's a hard sentence to say, but I believe it's another episode, another tremor in the shaking. And so I think now we've got to be prepared. There's going to be things exposed. There's gonna be a hatred for Christians exposed that we haven't wanted to look at. It isn't new, it's being uncovered. And then I think we'll see a corresponding move of God. So, it's an uncomfortable time, it's an awkward time, and we have to choose whether we're gonna respond with fear at the threats that are being rather loudly pronounced, or we're going to respond with courage and faith and perseverance. I'm pretty confident that Charlie could talk to us today with the perspective he's had since last Wednesday, he would tell us to double down on going forward. So we will not stop.
Rick Green [00:07:55] Amen. All of that. So, so good. You know, I'm hearing from people that have never spoken up before and maybe felt like they didn't have a platform, but at the same time, were afraid to even share their Christian faith or share their love of patriotism in the country that are now finding their voice. That seems to be one of the really positive things out of this as the church and as, you know, Christians, what's the best way for people to be ready to answer, to do 1 Peter 3.15 and to do it boldly, Acts 4.29? What are you saying to people now that are like, well, I wanna speak up, I want to do something so that we're not just ignorance on fire, but we're actually spreading the gospel as applied to everything in life. Like, what are you telling people that are now hungry and they wanna be a part of the solution?
Pastor Allen Jackson [00:08:46] Well, I think your point is really spot on. We have been afraid. We've been intimidated because we heard the, in the, the language pointed at Charlie, that he was a fascist and a bigot and a Nazi and he spewed hatred and he was the point of division. Not true. That is really a completely false narrative. And all of us have to own a little bit of this. We can't just point at a shooter on a roof in our timidity. In our cowardice, in our reluctance, in our hesitation, we pushed Charlie way out in front of the parade. He was simply in the most kind, winsome, open conversational way, having a dialog about biblical worldview. That does not make you a purveyor of hate. And we cannot allow that narrative to be established. I'll give you an example. I have a lot of acquaintances, associates, people I know who are agnostic. They don't believe in God. They don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. They don't believe in what I represent as a pastor. I don't hate them. I don't want them to be shut down or silenced. That doesn't feel personal to me. They have a different worldview. They have different opinion. Okay. I can, we can have a dialog about that. I hope they'll change their mind, but I'm not going to be quiet because agnostics exist in a similar vein. And if I say I don't believe that transgenderism represents something God created. I think it's a perversion of God's order of human sexuality. That doesn't mean I hate people, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm a target for it to be silenced and shut down. And Christians have been too timid. We've made too many friends with evil, and we've built too many bridges with wickedness, and now we seem surprised that evil and wickedness has walked over the bridge and standing amongst us. We've got to have the courage to come back and tell the truth, not in an angry way. Right. But I will not be silenced by somebody who disagrees with me saying I'm being hateful. I'm being hate full. I am just giving you my perspective. And we are a nation of diverse opinions and ideas and we have been that way for a long time. This weaponization is something new. Charlie wasn't assassinated because of a political opinion. We have a very wide spectrum of opinions in the political arena. The next mayor of New York, barring some supernatural intervention, is going to be a proudly avowed communist. I mean, I don't really love that economic system, but if the people in New York City wanna live under that authority, help yourselves. They have the right to do that. He has the right the choose that viewpoint. Since when did having a disagreement be a legitimate reason for hate and murder? The Christians better find the courage to say no, or they're gonna keep hunting Christians.
Rick Green [00:11:29] Yeah, and everything you just, I was thinking about, we used to say, used to be common to say I don't agree with you, but I'd fight and die for your right to say what you believe, you know, and now it's I don t agree with so you're going to die so that I don t have to listen and you can't influence other people. It's terrible. You just made a really important point, Pastor. Charlie was not assassinated for a political position. He was assassinated, for applying the Bible to everything in life. I mean, everything that he would answer to those students. Everything that he taught in our biblical citizenship class and all the things that he was doing was just the gospel. He was just applying the gospel to all of these issues of the world. And we need to make sure that the church understands that, that this was literally preaching the gospel, that's why when you said he's a martyr, you're spot on. He's was martyred for expressing his Christian faith no different than Steven.
Pastor Allen Jackson [00:12:21] Absolutely. And I think the other thing to add to that is this isn't new. This is a part of what we signed up for. When the new Testament says endure hardship, like a good soldier of Jesus Christ, that's not just metaphorical language. Paul writes that as somebody who's been beaten almost to death multiple times. He's been expelled from multiple cities. He bore in his body, the marks of suffering. I mean, we go all the way back to the old Testament, the Hebrew Bible, Isaiah was sawn in half. Because the king and his advisors didn't like Isaiah's perspective. In Acts chapter 12, James is beheaded because Herod's poll numbers went up. He arrested Peter and was gonna cut his head off too. In Acts, chapter seven, Stephen was martyred. Because of his advocacy for Jesus, we walk through the history of the church. I mean, martyrdom is a part of the story all the way into the book of Revelation. And I'm looking at these people, If they came to your place of business or to your neighborhood hunting Christians, is your Christian reputation out front enough that you would be at the top of the list? If it's not, I have a question for you. When the Lord returns, what makes you think He's gonna come looking for you? If you're not willing to be an advocate for Him in the face of threat, why do you think He's going to come looking for you when he's coming on a search-and-rescue mission, which is what this return is really about. We've got to have a different stature and a different attitude. We have been convenience Christians, and we've got a be Christians who lead with our faith.
Rick Green [00:13:59] Convenience Christians, Pastor Jackson, I'm gonna read to you just a quick line from one of my students here at Patriot Academy. She sent me this note Wednesday night after Charlie was assassinated. She said, we too find tragedy calling us to a greater resolve, greater, she'd been talking about Lincoln's Gettysburg Address and having an increased devotion to the cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion. But then she said, we have been called to a great resolve, greater passion, greater action. These years have shown us, these last weeks have shown as, we can no longer be couch Christians comfortable in our apathy while our house is burning down, God has called us to be warriors of faith, with the gentleness and compassion of lambs and the purpose and passion of lions. What do you think of that?
Pastor Allen Jackson [00:14:40] I think that's a message that needs to be shouted from the housetop.
Rick Green [00:14:43] Yeah, amen.
Pastor Allen Jackson [00:14:44] You know, I've been using a phrase the last few days since Charlie's death about trans Christians, and I don't mean transgender Christians. You know transgender people say they wake up in the morning and decide how they're going to identify whether they're male or man or woman. It has nothing to do with their biology or their chromosomes. It's how they happen to identify today. Well, I think we have a whole group of people who are trans Christians. Again, not their sexuality. They may be living ungodly lives, but they come sit in a church on Sunday and identify as a Christian. There's no such thing. You can't be practicing immorality. You can be practicing adultery or you can't be practicing fornication or practicing envy or unforgiveness, and then identify as a Christian, you can practice ungodliness and imagine yourself as a Christ follower. And we've had too much sloppy grace. I'm a believer in grace. You look up grace, you'll probably find my picture. But the trans Christianity has got to go away. We are under the sovereign authority of an almighty God. It's not about my opinion. You know, Jesus was about love, but that the only sermon he preached wasn't the sermon on the Mount. He also looked at audiences and said, you're a bunch of snakes and a bunch of whitewashed tombs and you look for disciples that make them twice the child of hell you are. And he told parables about brides waiting for a bridegroom that got shut out of the wedding. And weeping of gnashing of teeth and i mean he there's a lot more to jesus message than some of our fair weather christian messengers have been delivering to the flock the man it's time to tell the truth there hunting us we're gonna have to have a better grasp on the truth and a willingness to identify with our friend Jesus
Rick Green [00:16:26] Last thing, I know I kept you longer than I said I would, this harvest that is coming in, I think of the Jesus revolution and how we did great at getting people to walk the aisle or the beach and give their life to the Lord, but did terrible at discipling them to literally walk with the Lord. How do we do that better this time?
Pastor Allen Jackson [00:16:45] It's a really good question. I think growth is always about fundamentals. I think we keep pointing to the necessity of daily engagement with the Word of God, with the intent to walk in obedience. None of us do that perfectly, but if we don't have the intent, we won't do it at all. We have to live in community. We see the destruction that comes from living in your basement online. The same is true of Christians that live in their home with nothing but a live stream feed to another group of Christians. We've got to engage in the messy business of doing life together. We get mad in the parking lot. We get when somebody sits in our seat. We get because we can't bring our pet to church. And we've got learn how to walk through all of those things in community. And so I think we come back to the fundamentals and we don't allow big crowds to be equated with revival. Revival is about the transformation of lives, a change of culture. A change of behaviors. You know, when the Western revival took place in America, it had such an impact that whiskey consumption plummeted. There should be some measurable changes in culture that reflect the revival, not just attendance and meetings.
Rick Green [00:17:58] Yeah, that's that's true true awakening and reformation when we see the change in the culture Pastor you gotta I gotta we gotta get you back. I I know the Bartons will want you back I'd love to have you back Thank you for all that you're doing Thank you for mentoring other pastors for the conferences that you'e doing just all of the work To help the church deal with the situations that we're facing. I appreciate even the language that you use today I think it's important to position ourselves in that in that way. Just appreciate everything you're doin man. Let's get you back soon
Pastor Allen Jackson [00:18:23] Absolutely, Rick. We will not stop.
Rick Green [00:18:26] Amen. Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton. Welcome back to The Wallbuiders Show. Thanks for staying with us, and thanks to Pastor Jackson for joining us today as well, and just such great, great commentary and advice on what to do and how to respond to these things and how the church should respond to these thing. David, Tim, great. We got to get him back more often. I don't even know that we've, I can't remember having him on the program, but that was great.
David Barton [00:19:53] Yeah, it was great. And it was really, I really loved the way that he went through and started picking out kind of turning points in, in the church, you know, COVID was one and that kind of, you to use the biblical phrase, Jesus talked about separating the sheep from the goats, the sheep are supposed to be the good guys. The goats supposed to the not so good guys, and he's right. COVID did a lot of that. It showed us really which churches kind of had their thinking together and which didn't. And then I hadn't thought about Hamas being that turning point, but that's because If you can't, if you can stand with what the Bible says about Israel and the position they have that he's right. That's another dividing point. And then the death of Charlie Kirk is another, I mean, this is a, we've talked about it. It is a Christian martyr. He was killed for his faith, not his political opinions. People didn't like his political opinion, but his faith is what he spoke the most about. And every time he had a chance with political stuff, he would bring it back to faith. And so if you cannot stand and have a voice. When some of that stature is gunned down for his Christian faith, that's a real problem in the church. I really thought he identified those three points as really good indicators, dividing lines again between kind of sheep and goats. What's good and what's not good in the Church.
Tim Barton [00:21:09] Well, I love to, and I wish I would have written it down. I'm going to now go back and just listen to this again. I'm gonna listen to his interview and write it down, maybe one of you wrote it down, but where he was describing that we have built a bridge, trying to make peace with a side, that has not been embracing biblical truth. And when you build that bridge, trying to make piece with evil, don't be surprised when evil comes across that bridge. And now you're confronted with evil right in front of you. I don't know if one of y'all wrote down exactly what he said that you can repeat it, but man, the idea that we've been, we've been trying to build a bridge with with sin, with things that are very clear in the Bible that are not biblical. And now we're being confronted with it in culture on so many levels. And then as Christians, oftentimes we're surprised by what we see. I just thought, oh my goodness, this was such an incredible description that we have compromised in so many areas. And where a guy like Charlie Kirk was so brilliant is he found a way to be a defender of truth. And there were times that he would tell people that I have my positions because of my faith, like my faith influences my position, but I don't have to use my faith to defend any position I have. I can use logic and reason as to why what I'm saying is the best and why it makes the most sense. And we saw that, where he would argue from a logic, from a reason standpoint, and then at the end, he would often turn people back to faith. But the reason I say that is, Charlie gave us the example of not compromising with the other side, not trying to build a bridge where, you know, pastors don't want to really address issues and we just want to be friendly. We're going to build the bridge here. But if we're not careful, we're building the bridge of our own destruction. And again, what Charlie did was not just build a bridge I was thinking about in Second Corinthians, where Paul talks about the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but they're mighty for the pulling down of every stronghold and everything that would exalt itself against the name of God. And what's interesting is, that there are some arguments, there are some thoughts that are so elevated in culture that are contrary to the word of God. And Charlie literally was engaging in that battle, tearing down these thoughts, this high sounding nonsense as Paul writes in another place. And this is something I think even from Pastor Jackson that he's offering clarity, as Christians, this is what we should be doing. This should not be a confusing moment for us. Instead, we should be emboldened to stand up and speak for truth.
David Barton [00:23:47] I thought his comment too, and I hadn't ever heard it termed that way, but when he was talking about even the trans Christian, and it's like, all right, trans I've got in the context of gender, that yeah, you're one gender, but you perceive or portray yourself to be something of a different gender. And it's trans Christian. Yeah, on Sunday, you are one thing, but the rest of the week you portray yourself as something different. And I thought, that's Your essence should be who you are and on Sunday, that should be who you're all the time and the beliefs that you profess to have, the biblical viewpoints you profess to have that should carry through Monday through Saturday, the rest of the week or if you go to church on Sunday. It should carry through from Sunday to Friday, whatever. But nonetheless, I thought that's a it's a great it's great. I don't know. I mean, the word trans again is what caught my attention. But being trans Christian, it's like you got your feet in two worlds. And you gotta decide what your identity is and be true to that identity. I think that's one thing Charlie really helped with. He was so practical in so many areas in the Christian world as applied to things outside Sunday. And I think what we really need a lot more of is people who can take that approach of taking their faith and apply it to every single aspect of life and not just a Sunday experience, but a Monday through the rest of the week experience. And that's Man, again, that was just a really good phrase for me and I think it captured the epitome and the essence of what happens with too many Christians is they drop their faith at the place where they work or the place that they go to school or whatever. And Charlie just didn't do that and encouraged others to not do that either.
Tim Barton [00:25:27] Well, yeah, and that's, I think the challenge that we need to remember as we're wrapping this up is that he was saying, okay, let's go forward. Let's do something now. And that was Charlie's always his admonition is take action. Let's, let' do something. Don't just have a belief, stand for it, speak for it. Take action for it and that the same thing pastor Jackson incurs us with is let's, go forward and do something and I do think that's part of the revival we're seeing in the nation. People are going to take the message. They're gonna go do something with it and I think that's what's gonna make a difference in this nation.
Rick Green [00:25:59] Yeah, and the best thing we can do is, like Charlie, be ready to answer 1 Peter 3.15 and do it with all boldness, Acts 4.29. To the untrained ear, they thought that Charlie was just talking politics, but to disciples of Christ that are saturated in God's Word, they recognized how much of what he was saying was straight from the Bible and giving the biblical answer for things. It's like that presentation you used to do, David, on all the idioms, hundreds of idioms out of the Bible that people don't recognize that it came from the bible in the same way. The principles that Charlie was advocating were biblical principles and we've all got to get good at that. We've all gotta be ready to answer whatever that question is, whatever that topic is, and give that biblical position. It doesn't mean you have to even quote the Bible verse, but you have the principle that you can teach to the people in your life, just like Charlie was doing. Well, thanks for listening today, folks. Thanks to Allen Jackson for joining us. You've been listening to The WallBuilders Show.
