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Faith, Martyrdom, and America's Spiritual Awakening- with Pastor Jack Hibbs
"If you can explain what's going on, God's not in it." These powerful words from Pastor Jack Hibbs capture the inexplicable spiritual awakening unfolding after Charlie Kirk's martyrdom. People from Ireland to New Zealand who never knew Charlie are watching his videos and buying Bibles, creating a movement that transcends typical cultural impact.
The conversation takes a profound turn as Pastor Hibbs and the Wallbuilders team explore whether Charlie might be America's first prominent evangelical martyr of the 21st century. Unlike historical figures killed for political positions or civil rights causes, Charlie was targeted specifically for his biblical worldview applied to cultural issues. This distinction places his martyrdom in a unique historical context that has triggered an unprecedented response.
Churches across America are experiencing the ripple effects of this moment. Pastor Hibbs reveals his congregation grew by approximately 2,000 people the Sunday following Charlie's death, many having left churches where pastors refused to acknowledge what happened. For Christians unsure about their church's response, Hibbs offers biblical guidance: directly ask your pastor why they chose not to address it. Their answer will reveal much about their leadership philosophy and willingness to engage difficult cultural moments from a biblical perspective.
Most encouraging is the response from young people, with Turning Point USA reporting 38,000 new chapter applications since Charlie's death. Rather than retreating in fear, a generation appears inspired by Charlie's example, eager to continue applying biblical principles to cultural issues. As Pastor Hibbs notes, true revival won't come through "rock star pastors, tennis shoes, or smoke machines," but through genuine conviction and transformation that creates "a holy church attractive to the lost because we offer something 100% organic, original, and of God."
Want to honor Charlie's legacy and be part of this awakening? Start by grounding yourself in biblical truth, finding a courageous Bible-teaching church, and having the boldness to address the issues of our day with biblical solutions. Visit RealLifeNetwork.com for resources to help you apply your faith to current events.
Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the Intersection of Faith and Culture. It's the WallBuilders Show on a Friday, and yes, we're sticking with this theme of just totally messing our schedule up. Yeah, so yesterday supposed to be Foundations of Freedom Thursday, and we did a regular Wednesday program with Pastor Allen Jackson. Wednesday, we did Foundations for Freedom Thursday program because it was Constitution Day. Today's Good News Friday. I guess it's kind of good news because we're going to be talking about some things that are good news, but Jack Hibbs is going to be with us, and I didn't want to miss that. Of course, Jack very close to Charlie, and they did a lot of events together, and he was one of the major, I think, influences and mentors along with Rob McCoy and Charlie's life at that critical stage when he was just exploding on the on the scene So Rick Green here with David and Tim Barton guys course Tim You were just at Jack's church one a week or two ago
Tim Barton [00:00:48] I was, and actually I would say the good news on this Friday is we're having Jack Hibbs on the program.
Rick Green [00:00:52] There you go. Yes, yes.
Tim Barton [00:00:53] It's good news this Friday. But yeah, I was with Jack this last weekend. I had the opportunity to speak at Calvary-Capel Chino Hills and we got to talk. Openly and candidly, he was telling me stories. He talked to Charlie virtually every week. Charlie would call them and have the questions about the Bible. And,they would just engage in a lot of those conversations. In fact, even some of the nonsense that's being said today, I, we don't need to get into the names and I don't even have to get in the conversation, there's a lot people saying that Charlie had certain positions that Charlie did not have. All you have to do is go watch his videos and people at times might point to something he said back in 2022 or 2023 as the most recent example they can point to, but not to get in the weeds on this. I asked Pastor Jack about some of it. Hey, some people are saying this. What do you think? And he said, okay, here's what Charlie and I said. Here's the text messages. Here is what Charlie read, You know here's a etc and it was really, it was really refreshing to be able to have a primary source that could shed some light. And the bottom line, I think, is what Pastor Rob McCoy also has shared on social media a lot this week, is as people are debating some of Charlie's theological positions, some of Charlie's doctrinal positions, etc. Pastor Rob, McCoy said, look, I'm happy to address all these issues, but we should at least give the family a decency to have the funeral to bury the body before we start having debates inside these circles over your Christian community. And along those lines, it just made us think, man, we need to make sure that in the midst of what we're doing, as much as all of us can have really strong opinions, we wanna make sure that we're having a Biblical approach to this. And it's one of the reasons we had Pastor Allen Jackson on yesterday, just let's get some pastoral thought, advice, counsel from some really great voices. Pastor Jackson, a guy that we all know. We've known him for many many years. He's been a bold, courageous leader, but somebody that we thought would be really great to help give some guidance and thought on kind of where we are in culture, how we're navigating as believers, as Christians, what do we do going forward, and so we thought he would be a great guy to have on this week as many Americans are still processing and trying to figure out not just what happened, but what to do going forward.
Rick Green [00:03:22] Well, Jack Hibbs with us when we come back in the break. Stay with us, folks. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show. Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Our good friend Jack Hibbs from Calvary Capel Chino Hills out in California back with us, Jack great to have you back on man.
Pastor Jack Hibbs [00:04:41] Thank you guys, love it.
Rick Green [00:04:43] Well, we love you, and certainly appreciate your friendship and mentorship of Charlie. And, of course, everybody's just seeing an incredible harvest right now. You know, they tried to silence his voice, his vessel. Of course, it was the voice of truth, but even his vessel is being amplified. Man, more people are learning about the gospel through videos of Charlie Kirk now than I think we could have ever dreamed. So, you know, God really does work it all together for good. For those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose, doesn't He?
Pastor Jack Hibbs [00:05:09] Exactly that. And listen, my granddaughter, she's 15 years old and she's met Charlie many times, but it just didn't really register to her. And then he's martyred and she has been binge watching on YouTube, Charlie Kirk on campus videos, and she is not the only one. This is very amazing. So we've got a situation going on where I like what Dr. Warren Wiersby said. He said, if you can explain what's going on, God's not in it. Well, this is one of those things that is so unexplainable. Who would have thought that there'd be people in Ireland or even the Maori in New Zealand saying, I didn't even know who Charlie Kirk was, but I saw the news and I started listening and I'm gonna go buy a Bible. I mean, that doesn't fit unless God is doing something remarkable in my opinion.
Tim Barton [00:05:59] And Pastor Jack, if I could ask a question, coming to someone, a noted pastor, you've been recognized for your courage and that's why people all over the world love to watch and listen to you. But I'm asking, knowing you're incredibly courageous, there's a lot of pastors this last weekend that whether we would say some of them missed an opportunity. I don't know that all of them were cowards. I think some of then maybe didn't even really know Charlie was, but... Knowing that there were so many people that had seen it that were hurting There's been a a little bit of a move and a call for people to leave their church If your pastor didn't talk about Charlie Kirk on Sunday leave your church and I know there's just there's so much happening, there's nuance. I tend to be far more on the courageous side But I want to make sure that our courage is not being fleshly Indignation. What do you think is the appropriate response? For for people out there that did no one love Charlie and maybe they didn't feel like their pastor did a good job.
Pastor Jack Hibbs [00:07:04] Yeah, listen, Tim, this is actually what I'm dealing with right now. So we've had a Sunday and we had a Wednesday service where people came for the first time. And on the Sunday, the people who attended their churches called and said, are you going to address, is the church going to say anything about Charlie? Some churches didn't know who Charlie was, and some churches did and said they were not going to mention a thing because it's divisive. We received a lot of those people our attendance our attendance last sunday post Charlie's passing, I'll be conservative. We were up 2,000 people probably on that sunday our wednesday night, I don't know. I mean Five six seven eight hundred new people. Why what's going on? This is what I would say I would Say to people to be fair I would, say if this if your church did not acknowledge Charlie go to the pastor or to the ministry leaders and say, did you guys not know? I just need to hear from you. Did you not know or did you know and choose not to recognize or to mention it because a lot of people are hurting? Let them answer and if they answer you in a way that is not satisfactory regarding courage, regarding boldness, regarding scripture, then I think you can walk away from that church with assurance. But I would I would want to say pastor. Did you not know and if he says I knew I just didn't want to bring them up then I would shake the dust off your feet and move on why because Charlie Kirk? No, it's indicative of something deeper. They won't confront an issue or any issue if it's controversial or shy away from it but here's the deal they're admitting to you without admitting to that they are irrelevant they don't keep a pulse with Bible open on the current headlines for the welfare of the flock.
Rick Green [00:09:07] They don't understand the times and know what to do. I mean, they literally don't understand the time, right? I mean it's such, as Tim said, an opportunity to speak to this. And I was thinking a lot about the things that Charlie would say in response to questions and stuff. And to the untrained ear, they think he was just doing politics. We all know he was quoting the Bible. I mean he didn't always say the Bible verse, but he was quoted a biblical principle. He was answering biblically. He was making disciples, literally doing the Great Commission. And I think that's part of it these pastors maybe and a lot of these folks They literally don't know the Bible and they don't even realize they see him as divisive or whatever and just political and don't realize this guy's out there spreading the gospel He truly is you know has been murdered for his faith and and is a martyr and therefore should be You know acknowledged and and and we should talk about what we do from here So I think they are of it They just saw it as political and not the fact that this guy's actually preaching the gospel everywhere he goes
Pastor Jack Hibbs [00:10:04] Yeah, Rick, hey, can I just kind of exercise some of my freedom with you guys as friends? I'm going to say something and then can I ask you guys a question because I actually need to know. Number one observation, Charlie Kirk, in fact, Tim, I think you and I talked about this recently. If you picked up Charlie Kirk and moved him over 250 years backward to the nation's Charlie Kirk would have been a normal guy. Think about it. But because we're so far from our biblical worldview foundation, Charlie Kirk was unique. That said, are you guys aware, I don't know, could Charlie be the first evangelical martyr in the 21st century in America? I mean, I know that the Franciscans and many of those preaching the gospel here in California. Back in the 1530s and 1550s, many of them were martyred by the Native Indians. But I'm talking evangelical. Does anything come to you guys mind, historically speaking?
Tim Barton [00:11:15] There's only one example I can think of. Guys, I know you might have other thoughts. The only one I can thing of, my wife actually pointed this out to me, at Columbine, those two kids that went to Columbine High School, there was a couple of people, they said, who in here is a Christian, and a girl raised her hand, and she was killed for being a Christian. But it was not a targeted assassination the same way Charlie was, but she definitely was a Christian martyr. But if you go from before her... Guys, I'm gonna throw this to you. I don't know who you would point to before her in any kind of recent era.
David Barton [00:11:52] Yeah, this is one of the things we were dealing with a week ago and I was particularly thinking through it and Tim pointed out Columbine to me and yeah, that definitely is a Christian martyr. But if I put the caveat around it that says for notable, known people nationally that the average person would maybe know the name or recognize. That would exclude kind of the Columbine and I don't mean to exclude their faith, her martyrdom at all. I think she qualifies as a martyr. No question. She killed for her faith. But of those that would be kind of nationally known, you say, all right, maybe, maybe Elijah Lovejoy in the 1830s, but yeah, he's really killed more because he was an evangelical who opposed slavery and it was the pro-slavery people who killed him, not for his faith, for his Christian view on slavery. In. Alright, so MLK. Yeah, he's a noted minister, but he was killed for civil rights and racial stuff, not for his faith per se, and as I thought back over the notable deaths that I can look to of public figures Charlie's the first one that I could look at and say this is purely Christianity that he was kill for.
Pastor Jack Hibbs [00:13:05] Yes.
David Barton [00:13:06] We got a lot of woke people a lot anti-woke people. We have confrontations all the time on campuses But Charlie was really clear that his position is not a civil rights position, it's a Bible position and he was targetted. So just in me thinking back over the historical figures I know of that I can think of, I can't think of a notable historical figure. And I am sure that there were plenty of people maybe killed for their faith during the Civil War, the American Revolution or something else. That's very possible, like Colimbine. But for notable people, I can't think of any other notable person who was killed for their faith. I actually texted some of my friends, I texted some people, I said, is this America's first Christian martyr? And you know, I go back and say, okay, there were some religious fights going on in the founding era, you know. Quakers are being killed by Anglicans and kind of stuff, but that's still not Christian martyr. That's Christian versus Christian denominational differences. I think Charlie may be the first one I can point to as the first genuine Christian martyr on a at least quasi-national level, at least that has a degree of notoriety and is known. I think he kind of stands out unique in that category with all the other caviots we've talked about not wanting to diminish anybody else who lost their life for their faith, but I think that Charlie is the one that's different.
Rick Green [00:14:32] Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, guys, and even like, I'm sure there's, you know, tons of almost private examples where someone died for their faith in America in some situation that we're not aware of and don't even know, but absolutely. Jack, before we let you go, can you speak to just people out there that are now saying, you know, I want to be fired by his example. I want I want, I wanna emulate his virtues. Those are the words of Dr. Joseph Horne when you said if we took him and put him in the in the founding era, would he be normal? I was thinking. Maybe not quite normal. He would have been Dr. Joseph Warren, the Charlie Kirk of his generation, who was killed by the British at 34. But in his last speech, he ended it saying, having redeemed your country and secured the blessing to future generations who fired by your example shall emulate your virtues. Then and then talks about dropping the mantle on some young Elisha. Jack, there's so many people out there now that want to do that. They're fired. They weren't fired by the example. They want to they want to emulate the virtues. What are you saying to that harvest out there right now?
Pastor Jack Hibbs [00:15:30] Yeah, well, first of all, I want to get that quote that you just I'll text it to you.
Rick Green [00:15:33] I'll text it to you, you got it man, it's so good, it is so spot on too, right?
Pastor Jack Hibbs [00:15:37] Please do because I mean, you talk about being relevant to the moment, that is it. And then the other thing is this, what I love, and I think we're watching a supernatural move of God this way. These young people, I'm shocked. These young they want to know something and live for something and to see now what they saw Charlie do. They watched Charlie do it for years and then he goes out. Loving what he's doing and dies doing it and the young people instead of shine away from it They are saying I want to do this I want do this and I think we've lost track but the last TP USA person I spoke to they were at 38,000 new applications pulled for Creating a chapter on their school here in America that said I I do believe that this is a Sovereign work of God. It's unexplainable And it's Christ centered and it's for love of country. It fits all the builds, in my opinion, of what we've all been laboring for for decades. And that is, Lord, please revive us again. Please, Lord bring this nation back in line with your way. And I'm hoping that young people, think about the discipleship and then I'll be done. People can open up their Bible now. People can open up their Bible. Put on YouTube, listen to Charlie Kirk on any university campus or on any stage that he was speaking on, and you can get discipled. And the only thing missing would be going to a very good Bible-believing, spirit-filled church. If you had that recipe of Charlie teaching you in the Bible for yourself, not in any order, Bible for your self, that's first, and a Bible-teaching church, man, I think that's a combination. That is organic. That is relevant, I think you're going to see young people go back to those ancient moorings, ancient foundations of which our faith is built upon.
Rick Green [00:17:43] And Erika said the same thing right she said that in the speech 48 hours later get in that local church I mean that was an important piece that sorry David go ahead bro
David Barton [00:17:51] Yeah, Jack, I was going to ask you too, we were talking even earlier this week about revivals in American history, and they largely happened outside the church. It's like the church was the last one to get on board. There were populist movements that the people had, the people were moving. They'll go listen to a Whitfield or a Charlie Kirk outside of the church setting. And there were a lot of pastors who opposed every Great Awakening we had. And so I look back to COVID, and COVID kind of exposed a lot false pastors. So I'm gonna use that term. You know, that's what I would consider and be but it also woke up a lot of pastors who got on board And I'm kind of wondering now there's a reaction against a lot Of churches because they just were were out of touch with anything to happen with Charlie Do you think that there's there's the chance that pastors get on board with it? Are you seeing anything like that? Do you the church steps up and leads or people just gonna have to go kind of outside and around to get the Revival God's working on right now
Pastor Jack Hibbs [00:18:47] You know, great observation, and David, of course, coming from you. Absolutely. I would say this. It's too early to tell regarding the churches. I'm very cautious about the word revival. Somebody baptizes 500 people and they say it's a revival. I'm just cautious. Time will tell. Time always exposes the reality of a so-called revival. That said, I think there's going to be, I hope there's going to be, churches that wake up, pastors that wake up and realize, hey, I see this now. Because they did it, they did during COVID. I mean, I've become friends of many pastors now that during COVID, they saw the call for them to take a stand. They did that. And so I've been watching a whittling away. I mean this in a good way. You mentioned COVID. What else? So BLM. Abortion, the marriage issue, gender issue, Israel issue, all these things are escalated in my opinion and now we've had, so to speak, a man, a martyr, assassined, somewhat of a prophet to our age, God gave him as a gift to wake people up, how much more has to happen before the pastors wake up and churches wake up? So, David, and guys, I think that there will be those who will wake up. I don't know if it's going to be many. And I only say that for this reason, I'm not a pessimist, I only say it for this reasons, is that God always does the most with the few. And David, you beautifully said it, that when God cannot move within a church structure because there's no room for the Holy Spirit, He will touch. He will a touch a Whitefield, He'll touch a Charlie Kirk. And he will touch those people to go outside the rules to reach the lost and I love it. I know you guys love it and so time will tell. Let's be prayerful, let's be obedient, let's bold, let be biblical, but let's not be too quick to raise the flag of victory in this area of revival until we see the fruit of revival which will be a holy church, It will be a church that is attractive to the lost. Because we offer something that is 100% organic, original, and of God. It's not gonna be some rock star pastors, it's not going to be their tennis shoes or the smoke machines. It's gonna be, I think, conviction. People, think of Jonathan Edwards. My gosh, people were getting convicted and they couldn't even hear his sermon. There was a supernatural move where people were gettin' out of their buggies and off their horses to get on their face before God. That's what we wanna see happen. He did it before, he can do it again.
Rick Green [00:21:38] Quote of the day from Jack Hibbs. It won't be their tennis shoes or their smoke machines. I was just gonna add, it definitely won't be their skinny jeans. Jack Hiebs, Calvary Cahpel Chino. Oh, by the way, let's tell everybody, reallifenetwork.com for that discipleship. If you're out there and you're not plugged in yet, or even if you are, just go get some good discipleship there, reallifenetwork .com. I mean, talk about applying your faith to what's going on in the world. It's up to date and talk about relevant. Absolutely, reallifenetwork. Com. Jack, love you, brother. Thank you for coming on with us today. Love you guys. Love Jack Hibbs, guys. Man, give me some Jack Hiebs. You remember right when COVID hit, we had him on. It was a similar kind of deal, just helps to set the tone and just so much, so much godly wisdom.
David Barton [00:22:17] Well, you know, he is a guy that is in a very, very hostile culture and he chooses to stay there. And he chooses stay there under a governor that is extreme. We were talking offline before we started and there's a couple of bills that's going to the governor's desk. They're pretty unbelievable. And I'm sure the national news will eventually pick them up or it would be carried nationally rather. I don't know if national news would pick him up, but the news will go national with what happens. And so here Jack is in a very hostile state as a very outspoken individual in that state on public policy and other things and yet he's unequivocal with his Christian faith. And so being the leader of a large church and as he explained to us, he picked up maybe a couple thousand people just over this thing. And he has a large mega church and he is one of the boldest folks that we know. Speaking out and the people that are coming to him are wanting solutions and answers and that's what Charlie was offering and so it's really interesting get that perspective on him.
Tim Barton [00:23:20] Well I appreciate, too, as he encouraged, if people are bothered by their pastor's response, he literally walked us through the biblical Matthew 18 approach that, well, how do I handle this? We'll go talk to him. All right, dude, if your brother has an odd against you, you have a problem with somebody you want to talk to that person. And he said, let's let's just go ask them. But I also so appreciated the connection you made that You know, based on what they say, you can evaluate that and determine what was this out of courage or something else. And I say that knowing and trying to say this with grace, I, I saw somebody that I knew 15 or 20 years ago posting about it. He's a pastor of very large church and he posted online because he was taking so much from people in this congregation because he didn't really address it. And he said, guys, I got to be honest, you know, I've prayed and thought a lot about this is it actually went this week and watch a lot of Charlie care videos. I when he died, I didn't actually know who he was. And which also when he posted that I thought, you know, this also says something about how, how in touch or out of touch pastors might be with culture, what's happening in culture, where people are in culture. But he said I didn't know who Charlie Kirk was hadn't seen him before. You know, some people were saying he was divisive, some that he was his incredible Christian martyr, I did know. Anyway, I'm saying that there could be some of these pastors that genuinely didn't know. And it's not that they have bad hearts or they're not courageous. This is new for them. They're processing it. A lot of pastors want to feel like they really have a good understanding before they speak to it. And I felt like Jack's answer was really good guidance that what we should do is go have an honest conversation with our pastor, give them a chance to explain. And if they're not giving a biblical response, if the response is reflective of cowardice, well, then that tells me, you know what, then I probably need to be somewhere where I have a bold, courageous leader. Because you want the shepherd who will defend the sheep from the wolf to reference Jesus in John 10, you don't want the hireling that sees the wolf coming and runs the other way. That's who you want to stay away from.
David Barton [00:25:25] It's interesting, too, that Charlie did not run from the issues of the day and confronting them, and as Jack pointed out, and we've all been amazed at how Charlie has spread across the world, and even across the world they're saying, who is this guy, and they start looking at the videos, and now the gospel is going across the word, but I think it goes to the point that all pastors, all Christians can learn. Look, listen, addressing the issues of the day does not polarize. It draws people to you because people are wanting answers and solutions. And Charlie is one of those guys that, yeah, he was controversial, but because he addressed the issues in the day with biblical solutions, he had a growing massive tribe. It's now a global tribe across the world. And Jack is the guy who knew him well and had great input today on the program.
Rick Green [00:26:13] Well, folks, have a fantastic weekend. I'll leave you with a good test for that pastor. If you're if you're going to them, say, hey, can we do a biblical citizenship class here in the church? It's got Charlie Kirk in it. David Barton, Tim Barton. All these guys, Jack Hibbs teaching on these things. Would you allow us, in fact, I love the way Lance Wallnau taught us to ask that question. Would you trust me enough to host a class on what the Bible says about how to treat your neighbors. It's got Charlie Kirk teaching in it and we'd love to honor him in that way. There you go, folks. You can get that class at wallbuilders.com. Thanks for listening to The WallBuilders Show.
