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If law is a teacher, what are we teaching about life?- with Seth Guber
The post‑Roe fight didn’t end at the clinic door—it moved to the mailbox, the browser, and the bathroom. We sit down with Seth Gruber to confront the gap between what pro‑life laws claim and what they actually do, especially as chemical abortions surge and many states punish providers while giving parents legal immunity. If law is a teacher, what lesson are we sending when the same act is criminal for one set of hands and consequence‑free for another?
We unpack the uncomfortable numbers around abortion pills, the supply chains that route through overseas vendors, and the limits of a clinic‑only strategy. Seth argues for coherence: if the unborn child is human, equal protection should not shift with setting or instrument. That means pairing supply‑side enforcement—against distributors, telehealth brokers, and professional violators—with clear statutes that align penalties with the value we claim to defend. Along the way, we trace the civilizational stakes, from J.D. Unwin’s research on sexual culture and social energy to the way legal norms shape public conscience. Deterrence matters; history shows how quickly behavior follows the signal of law.
We also spotlight a growing cultural front: The 1916 Project’s wide church screenings and new Daily Wire streaming date, the Life or Death Con in D.C. ahead of the March for Life, and a forthcoming documentary, The Last Stand, telling a history of Christian resistance and the rebuilding of moral foundations. Some states can move fast; others must work incrementally. But settling for contradictions leaves the most common abortion method untouched and teaches the wrong lesson about human dignity.
If you value clear thinking, principled strategy, and courageous storytelling, this conversation will sharpen your view of what genuine protection for the unborn requires.
Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of Faith and Culture. It's the WallBuilder Show, taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Thanks so much for joining us. Rick Green here with Tim Barton. David Barton's still out on the road this week, doing a lot of great events. And we got Seth Gruber going to be joining us a little later in the program. If you're not familiar with Seth, we've had him on a several times, and he's really exploded with the White Rose Resistance, doing great work there. And of course, the 1916 project, a movie that you know, we we viewed with our coaches all over the country and just really impacted a lot of folks. Anyway, Seth will be with us a little bit later, but encourage you to visit our website, wallbuilders.com. Wallbuilders.com is our main site where you can get all kinds of great information and materials. And then Wallbuilders.show makes it super easy to catch up on any radio programs you might have missed over the last few weeks and months, and super easy to share them. That's a big deal. The more you share those programs, the more people are gonna learn these truths, and we're gonna continue to advance truth. So, Tim, Seth Gruber gonna be with us a little bit later, and we'll talk a little bit about the projects he's got going on and and of course just the the pro-life movement itself, and he's been right there at the tip of the spear of that.
Tim Barton [00:01:12] He has. He has been such a great voice leading the way. One of the things that's been really fun to see over the years, Charlie Kirk was so good at building coalitions, and we've done several things with Seth over the years. Actually, we're super excited. Seth's gonna be at our legislators conference this year, as there's been so much ground made in the pro-life movement. And in all of that, Seth has been one of the really strong voices out there where you definitely have some sweet people at times. Yeah, there's some timid people at times. Seth is none of those. Seth is the bold, unapologetic guy, just like Charlie Kirk was in a lot of ways. Seth is for the pro-life movement. And and we saw he was working on a project. It was like maybe some kind of documentary, something coming out, and I'm saying it teasing it because I think I know what it is. But we are so excited for what he's doing, and we thought, you know what, in the midst of all this going on with all the things in culture, this is definitely something worth helping. First of all, make sure that our our people, that that those that would want to support this cause conserve the right to life. They need to know about this. And we thought, let's get Seth on here to talk about what all he's doing so that we can help promote this and obviously support the greatest when the founding father said the first is the right to life. That's where it all begins. And Seth is one of those fighters out there helping defend the right to life.
Rick Green [00:02:29] Seth Gruber, our special guest, gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back. You're listening to the WallBuilders Show.
Rick Green [00:03:40] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Seth Gruber back with us from White Rose Resistance. Love what you guys are doing, Seth. And it looks like a partnership with Daily Wire. Nineteen sixteen just exploded. We enjoyed showing that here at Patriot Academy and through our through our coaches across the country and
Seth Gruber [00:03:55] So much going on. We tried to keep up with you, bro. That's what we tried to do. We just tried to keep up with Patriot Academy and Wall Builders. The 1916 Project, crazy screening tour last year. Churches are still screening it all around the world, by the way. For your listeners, you can still go to the1916project.com and you can host a screening at your church. But for people who are like, Well, where do I go tell people to see it? Daily Wire Plus starts streaming October 16th on Daily Wire. And of course it's a book as well, the 1916 Project, The Lying, The Witch, and the War We Are In. So God's been faithful to us. We're working on our second film. We have our DC conference the day before the March for Life called Life or Death Con in DC. Abby Johnson, Steve Dace, Dr. George Grant, myself, AJ Hurley, and more. And yeah, I mean, dude, revival. Jesus is moving.
Rick Green [00:04:50] How do you come up with these names? Life or Death Con? Do you I'm I'm betting you came up with that.
Seth Gruber [00:04:55] Isn't that good? Life or Deathcon, baby.
Rick Green [00:04:58] So now now with will the will you screen the movie again at that?
Seth Gruber [00:05:03] Oh no, we're not we're not screening the nineteen sixty project. I mean, we got a packed day the at that conference, and then the very next morning it's the March for Life. So it's it's quite the packed schedule. But yeah, that's really where we we cast vision and strategy and try to shape a lot of the action and narrative for the post row fight. I let let me first say, Rick, listen, praise God for the warriors who came before us in the fight for the unborn, the fight for the family, the fight for life. But it does need to be said that the Lord is sifting things, not just in the church, but in the conservative movement, in the pro-life movement. And I think a few things have happened in the last few years that have shook people's moral and spiritual intuitions, and maybe even broke caused some scales to fall off certain people's eyes. That happened with COVID, that happened with the overturning of Roe v. Wade, and now that's happened with the martyrdom and murder of our friend. And so there is a debate that is long overdue in the pro-life movement. You probably didn't want to go here today, but we're gonna be focusing more and more on this at White Rose Resistance at our conference in DC, because now that Rose overturned, every state has the obligation, the duty to protect the unborn. And even in the most pro-life states, brother Rick, that would mean Texas, right? That would mean Tennessee, South Dakota, okay, et cetera, where maybe some of these states are celebrating that they protect the unborn. Listen, credit where credit's due, but they actually don't protect the unborn because it's legal for the mother to kill her baby. It's only illegal for the abortionist. And so even in the most pro-life states, Rick, the the language says in the in the pro-life laws that the mother, father, the parents, okay, who were having their child killed cannot be charged. So even in the most pro-life states, it's not a crime for the parents or the mother, mother or father, to have their unborn baby killed. Now, listen, w w we don't want to like this this whole phrase people say, Rick, they're like you you you want to criminalize women. No, we don't want to criminalize women. We want to criminalize abortion. Okay. It's not like we have it out for moms or dads, but listen, Aristotle, state craft is soul craft, right? The law is a teacher. We what we're doing, even in the most pro-life states, and I love some of the bold work that some of the good these good states are doing, Rick. But even in the most pro-life states, we're we're te we're communicating a lie about human nature, human dignity, fetal development, human rights, what it means to be human. We're communicating a lie through the law because we're saying it is wrong, evil, against the law, illegal for abortionists to kill babies, but not for their parents. That's not a crime for the parents to kill the baby. And so, and so now, with actually from the Gutmacher Institute Planned Parenthood's research branch, Rick, check this out. 63% or more of the annual abortions are now the abortion pill. And it's about a million babies are slaughtered every year, every 12 months in the land of the free and the home of the brave. So, what does that mean? It means 630 to 700,000 children. Let me say that again. 630 to 700,000 babies are murdered every year in America by their parents with no third-party OBGYN or abortionist. It's it's a pill that comes in the mail, and the instructions on those are you 486 abortion pill, which by the way, it's kind of connected to the Nazis, Rick, says to flush it down the toilet. Okay. So, how do we protect those babies? There's no abortionists, there's no brick and mortar abortion mail. There's not even an OD. Right. In the most pro-life states, squishy rhino republicans have written into the bill that the mother, the parents, cannot be prosecuted. So it is not a crime for parents to murder their unborn babies in the most pro-life states in America. And there are major pro-life organizations with multi-million dollar budgets, Rick, who spend their time writing letters pressuring real conservative state legislator warriors to not criminalize abortion for all parties involved. So the last stand that we do is more inspiration, next generation, Hoorah, wake up revival. Life or DeathCon in DC is more shape the narrative, lead the way, strategize and inspire the already enrolled and begin to push back against what I think a lot is honestly, it's a lot of a sellout. There is a pro-life establishment, and it's way overdue that we start talking about it. Not because we hate them or we're just trying to ruin their organizations, but because these are core issues to what it means to be a conservative in pro-life, and we simply believe. It should be illegal for everyone to kill anyone.
Rick Green [00:10:02] Yeah, I was as you were describing that, I was thinking of this, just had to look it up. I couldn't remember exactly how he said it, but John Witherspoon, doctor Reverend Doctor John Witherspoon, signer of the declaration, trainer of many of the founders, has said a perfect right in a state of natural liberty is the right to life. In America we have denied the power of life and death to parents.
Seth Gruber [00:10:20] Wow, that's powerful, Rick.
Rick Green [00:10:22] If only we could get back there, Seth. And we can. So what what do educate me on the on the practicalities of these laws that are being passed because I'm I have not kept up well. So so the ones that are saying that the abortion pill is illegal in our state, what you're saying is they're only putting punishment attached to that law with the abortion pill manufacturer or someone that would sell it, not to those who would use it.
Seth Gruber [00:10:45] Yeah. So so the most pro-life states, Rick, they're trying to go after the provider, the the manufacturer. Listen, I got no problem with that, okay? Like there, there's this whole device. Some of your listeners are like very tuned in. They know exactly what I'm talking about, this abolitionist incrementalism. I I don't I don't like some of that debate simply because it's I feel like they're very pendulum. It's like all or nothing. Like, listen, if you can't if you can't get a perfect law, you get all you can. Then you get you should get all you can. So, like I am an incrementalist in that sense, but I have a problem when you you you go for the least amount possible. You go for the smallest victory you can get and you do that right out the gate. That that to me, I'm like, who's funding you? Like be can be because I'm like, with Roe overturned, every state can fully end abortion, Rick. Yeah. If we if they have the prophetic leadership in the pulpits to inspire their people to godly Christian resistance. That like what what it goes back to the states. That's the whole thing with Dobbs with Dobbs. Why would you not try to fully end abortion? Now, oh, well, we couldn't do it. Okay, if you can't get you didn't have the votes at legislative session, you go for the best thing, right? That I get that. But what I have a problem with, Rick is when quote unquote pro-life leaders are intentionally doing backdoor pressure to pressure, attack, demean, discredit real conservative state legislators, yeah, telling them don't criminalize abortion because moms and dads should be able to kill their children with legal immunity and impunity. So the whole go after the manufacturers of the abortion pill, I got no problem with that. That's a great that's a great political strategy. Just don't stop it. But if you say that's all we should do, and and that mothers should be able to kill their babies without legal punishment, Seth Gruber wants to hang mothers in the public square. He hates women. No, I I all I'm saying is is that whatever laws are on the books, Rick, that protect infants, okay, who have already been born, whatever laws protect infants from being killed should be applied to the unborn. Oh my gosh, what a radical guy you are. I thought that's what it means to be pro life.
Rick Green [00:13:02] Yeah, it almost sounds like you think the life that the baby in the womb is is life and and as valuable as the baby outside the womb. What a radical concept.
Seth Gruber [00:13:12] You know, MLK Jr., he did have an interesting observation. He said, until our problem is solved, America may have many, many days, but they will be full of trouble. There will be no rest. There will be no tranquility in this country until the nation comes to terms with our problem. As long as we continue to murder babies, as long as we legalize it, because it is legal in all 50 states. Like I that's a really hard thing for like like r republican kind of like rhinos to hear, like who think that we've made all these victories. And by the way, praise God for the overturning of Roe. I'm the first one to celebrate that. But it is legal to kill babies in all 50 states because of the abortion pill.
Rick Green [00:13:55] So what what is the what is the bill that should be passed to at least prevent the manufacturer from being able to mail that in?
Seth Gruber [00:14:02] I think it should be I think it should be Fourteenth Amendment federal ban on abortion right now. Yeah. But anyway, that I don't think that's happening anytime soon, even though there's there's the political argument for it there. There's the certainly there's the there there's the tradition and history of just a lot of people. But yeah, I mean listen, a lot of these abortion pills, Rick, they're actually coming from overseas. Not all of them are even being shipped domestically to women's mailboxes when they order them online. They're many times coming from India and and different in different parts from over the country. So like think of the nightmare that that entails, by the way, Rick. Like, I mean, the I guess we did this in the Comstock Laws. We were opening people's mail. That that's one of the things that got Sanger, Margaret Sanger, in trouble when she had to flee New York City to hang out with the Neo Malthusians in in London and sleep her way up the levers of power like the first Kamala Harris, was because her writings had broken the Comstock laws.
Rick Green [00:14:58] And you cover this in the movie, right? In1916?
Seth Gruber [00:15:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the Postmaster General, you could go through the mail, right? So, so I mean, I I'm not saying that that's immoral. I'm just saying think of the nightmare involved in trying to like go through the mail and figure out like who's shipping abortion pills, where they're coming from. Again, I'm not saying don't don't go after the manufactured of the abortion pill. I'm just saying, dude, that sounds like a nightmare to try to like effectively deliver on that. And so, but then someone might come back to me, Rick, and say, Well, Seth, what what you your your proposition is just as messy. How the heck, Seth, are you going to ensure that women don't kill their babies or that they're reported if if if it's a crime for everyone, not just the abortion, if it's a crime for the mother, and she's ordering the abortion pill online, how are you gonna do that? Right? Well, listen, law is a teacher. I I I because I've tested this, I have asked most of the post-abortive women I know. And we we forget about the post-abortive fathers, super, super important conversation. We could end abortion in like 12 months if if men woke up and repented. But but I've I've asked almost every post-abortive mother women woman who's pro-life now, right? And they're engaged in the fight for life. I I like asking them, Rick, hey, sister, if abortion was illegal and criminal at the time that you got your abortion, would you have gotten an abortion? Now, obviously, I'm giving you anecdotal, you know, but but what's the plural of anecdotal data? That's good. And and and you know what they all say? Every single one without fail? They said, absolutely not. Wow. If it was a crime, I would not, I would I would have been way too scared to have broken the law, Seth. I would not have gotten the abortion. So so I think anecdotally, and also I think we can make kind of an argument from human nature too, but I think most people will abide by the law, especially when there's such a strong deterrent. When when the consequence for breaking that law is so crazy, right? Because what basically, yes, let okay, let me just be clear. Yes, I am asking for abortion to be treated as homicide. Right wing watch, they're all over us. Of course, of course, that's what it means to be pro-life. The whole pro-life argument is that the unborn child in the womb is a distinct living and whole human being with the same dignity and right to life as any born person. Yeah. And that the differences between the unborn and the born are not good reasons for saying that they had no right to life in the womb, but they do now. That's the that's literally the pro-life argument. So, so what's the next step that they should have? The same protections. I mean, like, that's really, really simple. So if abortion is treated as homicide and it's and it's a crime for the abortionist and for the parents to have their unborn baby killed, then that's a pretty strong deterrent. And I think most people would obey the law. Yeah. Now, people always say, well, there's no such thing as no abortions. There's just unsafe abortions. Of course, it's like it's like, wait, what? Abortion's always unsafe for the person. Very uncertain for the weirdo. Yeah. But what they mean, of course, is that women will try to get abortions anyways. And by the way, that's true. That's true. But but does that mean that that we would have the same numbers? Of course not. Did you know in the years leading up to Roe v. Wade, right? This is fascinating, by the way. The median annual abortions were a hundred thousand. Ninety on thousands, somewhere around that. Okay. What what how many babies were being killed? How many abortions were being performed? I like to say babies being killed because abortion itself is sort of a euphemism. Right. How many babies were being killed by nineteen seventy five and nineteen seventy six?
Rick Green [00:18:35] Millionaire.
Seth Gruber [00:18:35] 1.7. Yeah, 1.7 million. 1.7 million. Yeah. So clearly 17 influenced behavior. Right, right. Oh my gosh. Like this is like actually. Oh man, there's no doubt.
Rick Green [00:18:49] Yeah. The first time I had Frank Turk at Patriot Academy and he said, The law is a is a great teacher. And and you know, yeah. I said, I was thinking to myself, wow, they never told me that in law school. That's that's sunk in. You know, it's like, you're exactly right. That influences culture. Hey, almost out of time, but I know you got as you mentioned earlier, a second movie that you're working on right now, and we're way ahead. It's not gonna come out till June. But just a little teaser. Give us a little taste of what you got coming.
Seth Gruber [00:19:14] So I mean it's yeah, it's it's a history of Christian resistance. It's called The Last Stand is the name of the film. Our event in June was called The Last Stand. We're doing that event again next June sixth. And we'll be announcing where soon. We had eleven hundred tickets for the first one. We expect three thousand wow in this next June. And listen, we're in a season of the last stand, Rick, and I don't say that as sort of red meat for the base. I don't say that sort of like to hyperbolically rile people up into a frenzy to sign over their 401ks to the White Rose Resistance 'cause they think their kids will be raised in gulags. Like I don't engage in that kind of rhetoric for sensationalist purposes. A historical argument. Yeah, that that we're in a season of the last stand. Have you ever read JD Unwen, Sex and Culture, 1934?
Rick Green [00:20:08] I have not.
Seth Gruber [00:20:10] So he he does he studies 86 civilizations over 5,000 years and he's not doing commentary, he's doing observation. Tim Barton would be impressed by me right now, even though even though you didn't know what I'm just kidding. But he's and so he but he's not doing commentary, he's doing observation. He makes that clear in the introduction to his book, again, 1934, Sex and Culture, JD Unwan. He and he just says, here's my observations. And I'm not aware of like a major lib academic who's been able to discredit, by the way, his observation. So 86 civilizations over 5,000 years and fives finds a 100% correlation between the the combination of prenuptial chastity with absolute monogamy as the most as the indicator for the continued progress and health of a civilization. He says that those societies display the most societal and cultural energy, which means that they're builders. Remember Stephen, what's his name? White House Chief of Staff at Charlie's Memorial, Stephen Miller.
Rick Green [00:21:02] Stephen Miller.
Seth Gruber [00:21:03] You build nothing. You are nothing. We're the ones who build. We're like, and and and some Christians who like listen to too much Rick Warren and Lecrae, they they were sort of like, oh my gosh, that's not very Christian language. It's well saying, well, it's because he's a representative of the state, you stupid Christian. You should want the state to bear the sword. Of course, he's not supposed to sound like Beth Moore. Okay, like why were you disturbed by his talk? Anyways, but what he's saying is actually true. Sexually liberated laissez-faire French revolution societies do not display great cultural energy. Literally, Stephen Miller is correct. You are nothing. You can build nothing. That's actually historically accurate. That's that okay. He wasn't just engaging in that kind of rhetoric for sensationalist purposes. And so J.D. Unwin finds this observation 86 civilizations over 5,000 years, and and and as soon as a society goes full blown laissez-faire sexual attitudes, Rick, just like if it feels good, do it. Alfred Kinsey, Margaret Sanger, Hugh Hafner, Bob Guccioni, wee within three generations, that society collapses to a dead level of conception. He describes it as inert, and he says they're taken over by another civilization and society with greater social energy. And he he defines the civilization, if I I'm sorry, a generation, if I recall correctly, because I've been reading through it, as 30 years. So he writes it in 1934. And as soon as society goes full blown, laissez-faire sexual attitudes, if it feels good, do it. Sexual freedom, liberation. Within three generations, you're done. So when when did that begin?
Rick Green [00:22:31] Yeah, so how do you make this work? That third generation, right? I I.
Seth Gruber [00:22:35] Guess, well, but did that begin in 1934? Probably not I would say maybe the Woodstock.
Rick Green [00:22:41] Yeah, yeah.
Seth Gruber [00:22:41] But even though even those girls getting knocked up, Rick, they weren't largely getting abortions. That's another it that even they were not largely getting abortions because there was enough of the the vestiges of Western civilization, which is a byproduct of Christendom, which is a connected to the heritage of Christian resistance and the church and the Imago Day and Christianity and and human rights and the rule of law that came from Christendom, that even those women from Woodstock weren't largely getting abortions. Those babies were adopted out. So when did full blown sexual freedom begin in America? Yeah, maybe the sixties. Maybe somewhere around there. Certainly by seventy three with Roe v. Wade. So we've got we're we're probably in that like last.
Rick Green [00:23:16] Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Seth Gruber [00:23:18] So I could give you some more arguments and proof, but like I'm saying we're literally in a season of the last stand. And so the Bible says if the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? Yeah.
Rick Green [00:23:29] They rebuild them.
Seth Gruber [00:23:29] They rebuild but we have a generation of Christians, Rick, who don't know what those foundations are nor how they were built. So how do we rebuild them? Right. The Psalm eighty-eight says righteousness cannot be done in a land of forgetfulness. Yep. That's right. We live in a land of forgetfulness. This film will help solve the problem of forgetfulness. I don't think anything's been done like it since Francis Schaefer's How Should We Then Live. And so it's a ninety minute documentary of a history of Christian resistance of who were the builders, who were the protectors, who were the providers. That's what I'm working on right now.
Rick Green [00:24:04] Yeah, it's it's a perfect time with the 250th. In fact, I can't wait. We will by that time we will have put a lot of people through our Rebuilding Liberty course talking about the bricks. And I would I can't wait to promote your movie as a you know, right there, right before the two fifty. Looking forward to it, man. Hey, gotta run. Seth Gruber. God bless you, man. White Rose, it's white rose.life, right? Well, what's the website?
Seth Gruber [00:24:25] The White Rose.life.
Rick Green [00:24:27] The WhiteRose.life. The WhiteRose.life. Seth Gruber, always great, man. Talk to you soon.
Seth Gruber [00:24:32] You too.
Rick Green [00:24:33] Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with Tim Barton. Welcome back. Thanks for staying with us here on the WallBuilders Show. Thanks to Seth Gruber for joining us. And Tim, of course, tip of the spear, man. He's out there on the pro life issue and new projects all the time. Excited to work with him. Like you said, he'll be at our legislators conference in just a few weeks.
Tim Barton [00:25:55] Yeah, and you know, like like he was talking about, this is a fifty state battle. This is something that now everybody in every state needs to pay attention to. There's a lot of things happening, there's a lot of moving parts and pieces, which is why at our legislative conference we are trying to do things we can to equip all state legislators to have the information, the knowledge, the education from a constitutional and biblical historic perspective, and even what's the cutting-edge stuff happening. And Seth Gruber is so good on this. So man, I'm so glad he was able to join us today.
Rick Green [00:26:20] Good stuff. And then of course that legislators conference will be working with these legislators from all over the country. And it's different for different states, but they've all got a way to make make ground on the life issues. Some of them completely abolish abortion in their state, and some of the more liberal states they can at least start that incremental path towards victory, just like a a lot of our red states had to do for the last thirty, forty years. Thanks again to Seth Gruber. Thank you for listening. You've been listening to the WallBuilders Show.
