The WallBuilders Show
The WallBuilders Show is a daily journey to examine today's issues from a Biblical, Historical and Constitutional perspective. Featured guests include elected officials, experts, activists, authors, and commentators.
The WallBuilders Show
Why Politics Protects The Gospel And How Mentors Shape Messengers
A lot of voices are loud right now. Few are clear. We invited Frank Turek to help us cut through the noise with a steady, evidence-based approach to faith that can stand up in a college auditorium or a family living room. Frank shares how mentoring sharpened Charlie’s gospel focus, why campus conversations are shifting from gotcha questions to genuine interest, and how a tragic moment sparked a surprising surge in Bible reading and church attendance.
We unpack the backbone of Frank’s method: four questions that form a simple, powerful framework for apologetics—Does truth exist? Does God exist? Are miracles possible? Did Jesus rise from the dead?—and how to use that framework to answer tough objections with patience and precision. Frank also opens up about his own path into apologetics, the influence of Norman Geisler, and the birth of CrossExamined, the app and platform that puts quick facts and longer form resources at your fingertips.
The conversation turns to public life and personal calling. Politics isn’t our mission, but it protects our mission by safeguarding the freedom to preach, gather, and live the gospel. We talk about engaging culture without losing the center, forming students before algorithms do, and building a habit of mentorship that keeps leaders humble and effective. If you’re a parent, a student, or a pastor looking for practical tools, you’ll hear concrete steps—resources to study, questions to practice, and ways to host better conversations that lead to real faith.
If this resonates, share it with a friend. Your voice helps us reach the next person who’s looking for clarity in a chaotic moment.
Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. It's the WallBuilders show. Thanks for joining us today. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. Be sure to visit our websites today. Wallbuilders dot show. That's our radio site. You can catch up on any of the programs you might've missed from the last few weeks and then wallbuilders.com for everything else, including Christmas is not that far away folks. So, go to wallbuilds.com, get you some swag, get you some informational materials to give to your friends and family for Christmas wallbuilders.com. David and Tim, happy Monday to you. We've got Frank Turek with us later today.
Tim Barton [00:00:39] Yeah. Have you Monday? It will be fun to have Frank on, uh, one of our, our friends who, uh certainly has been in the news for, um, lots of conspiracy reasons after Charlie's murder. He was the one, uh standing by the tent that was wiggling his ear and face. And people are like, he's giving signs to the shooter. And of course, those of us that knew who that was are like you're an idiot, you know, for lots of reasons. You know.
Rick Green [00:01:06] But Tim, he looks so menacing. In his white hat and white shirt.
Tim Barton [00:01:11] I mean, it's just, oh, guys, where we've gone right now with conspiracy theories and, you know, specifically there's one person leading the charge more than others on that. A female podcaster but it's just, we, we have entered a lot of crazy land where a lot of conspiracy theories have gone off. And yet in the midst of the crazy town, We've also talked about, it's so clear that God is on the move. And of course, Frank Turek is one of the guys who's been in the world of apologetics for a long time. He, he is someone that we have done, all of us individually have done different events with Frank over the years, um, where we've been speakers together at conferences at, uh, different events and, and Frank has been someone on college campuses all over the place, trying to help people understand some of the truth, Biblical foundation of God's Word, Biblical apologetics, etc. And really, even part of the reason he was there is because he'd been working with Charlie on some of those things, doing a little iron sharpening iron, helping make sure that not just Charlie had some well thought-out, defensible positions, but even some of the other team there at Turning Point. And so Frank is a really great voice in kind of this modern era in the apologetic conversation.
David Barton [00:02:30] You know, Tim, going back to what you said, too, about the crazy conspiracy theories that are out there, I mean, as you said if you know, Frank, that there's no basis for conspiracy theory. He is straight up front, been an apologist, Christian apologist apologetics for years and decades as a Christian leader, very grounded, very balanced. I don't know that he's ever said anything that I've ever heard that would even lend to something like that. So, I was reminded of the passage and it's probably just a good passage for everybody to recall with all this stuff flurring around but Isaiah 8 verses 11 through 13, God says to Isaiah 'don't call conspiracy everything this people call conspiracy don't fear what they fear don't dread what they dread I'm the Lord your God' and a lot of times a lot a conspiracy things run around with fear they don't necessarily have facts under them but if you can just hold your mouth just right and lean to the left a little bit and rearrange your fingers you can come up with something and just really be careful of conspiracy theories. Demand facts, demand truth, demand evidence.
Tim Barton [00:03:31] Well, and this is one of the things that that also guys we know Frank has done such a good job over the last several decades, really kind of the staple of what he does is saying, what do we know to be true? How do we it to be? And a lot of the conspiracy things out there now are just, I just feel this. I, I feel that turning point. I feel that Erika, I will, I felt Charlie would have, and there's a lot of feeling motivation involved in some of these things and obviously there's more to the story and we don't have time with the point of the program today is not to get into debunking some of the conspiracy theories and some of what's out there other than we can say, anybody around law enforcement can also give you more context on some of this because oftentimes you don't present all the facts and information you have on your case because you're saving it at times for the trial and the jury. You can't release and reveal certain things that might taint the jury pool. Uh, et cetera, all of us just say there can be more evidence. And so instead of forming all of our opinions before we have the information, it's prudent to make sure you know the facts before you dive into the deep end on this. Now, not again, that's not the point of the program. The point of program is talking to Frank about a lot of what has been going on. Not just since the murder of Charlie, although we certainly might get into that some, because his notoriety and name has been out there a lot more. It's like our friend Pastor Rob McCoy, who's had a lot of opportunities before him. But Frank is someone who has been very fact-oriented. How do we know that that God is real? How do you know Jesus is real, right? Can we trust the resurrection, the evidence for the Bible, whatever it might be? He's been someone has been helping lead in these areas. And now we are in the middle of revival. Where we need this information, arguably, now as pertinent and relevant as ever as there's a rising generation trying to discover truth. And Frank Turk has been a great voice helping people find and discover the truth of God's Word and the apologetics behind why we believe what we believe.
Rick Green [00:05:32] Yeah, Frank, for those that are familiar with Frank, go back and watch Charlie's Memorial Service. Frank's was one of the absolute best that day. It was incredible. And crossexamined.org is his website, his app. I use his app, actually. It's just so good at quick facts and quick responses to some of those discussions that we have with folks. So good stuff. Looking forward to it. Frank Turek with us when we return. We'll be right back. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show.
Tim Barton [00:07:03] Welcome back to The WallBuilders Show. This is Tim Barton and we are joined by our good friend, Frank Turek. Frank, thank you for being with us today.
Frank Turek [00:07:10] Great to be with you Tim, how are you?
Tim Barton [00:07:11] I'm great. Frank, I tell ya, it's been really fun to see on social media. I can only imagine how full your inbox has been, how many calls and texts you've gotten over the last couple of months, but it's really fun as you were over on Israel the Middle East going through some Bible apologetics, Bible history, and just seeing those reels and. I know there's algorithms on social media, and so probably that influences some of what I see, because I see your reels in my feed all the time, but I love it where I'm seeing you even more now on campuses, and again, maybe I'm just seeing the reels more. I don't know if your life has gotten busier or not, but can you give us any kind of update? One of the things that we have talked about often on this program, we knew from the moment when Charlie was murdered, because we know the Bible is true, we knew that God was gonna use it for good, even though we didn't necessarily know what that was. We've seen what some people now are calling the Charlie Kirk effect, with people coming to faith and revival and a stirring in the hearts of people. What are you seeing and what has your life been like maybe over the last two months, if you can share with us some?
Frank Turek [00:08:26] Well, we did several campus events right after Charlie's murder because they were already scheduled and I know he wouldn't want us to cancel them. So we've done, "If God, Why Evil" on several campuses. And it's mostly a Q and A in honor of my friend, Charlie Kirk. And we noticed that there is a bit of a shift from skepticism more to evangelism. In other words, more students are interested in trying to get their friends to become Christians than they are asking skeptical questions about Christianity. And as you know, Bible sales are up. Church attendance is up. I mean, when else have we seen 100 million people watch the gospel preached from the President on down in human history? We never have. So that was a tsunami of good that came out of a very awful, evil event.
Tim Barton [00:09:18] Well, Frank, one of the things that I am so curious about as well, the reason that you were there is, and I'm gonna say what I think I know and please correct me along the way is because Charlie had asked for your help and mentorship in some areas. And as someone, and I know for most of our audience, we're people that so appreciated Charlie, that respected Charlie, and for some of us, that are out doing speaking events where we are doing a lot of events on, on campuses and universities, but obviously all over the nation. And Charlie was just one of the best at it. And so practically speaking, I'm looking, going, man, if there's something Charlie was like, I need some help on this, Frank, can you help me? I'm so curious. What was it that you were helping Charlie understand or communicate, better navigate? How were you mentoring Charlie?
Frank Turek [00:10:10] Mostly Christian apologetics. He wanted to be better at answering questions to defend Christianity. So in early 2020, he reached out to me and said, I've watched a lot of your videos. It's a big part of what I do. And I just want to get to meet Frank. You know, he sent it to our inbox, email inbox. And so I reached back out to him and we'd been friends ever since. And this past summer, I was in Phoenix four times to have sessions with him to talk about how we can improve both of our abilities to answer questions on college campuses. So, Charlie knew that in order to get good at anything, you had to have mentors. I was one mentor. He had other mentors too. I wasn't the only one, but in Christian apologetics, he wanted me to help him better answer certain questions. And so that's, that's why we were together so much. And that's the reason I was at the event at which he was murdered was because He said, hey, if you want to, you know, if you wanna come with me to the first event, you know we'll spend a couple of days together beforehand and then just come. I said, sure, yeah, why not? And so that's how it happened.
Tim Barton [00:11:20] I would say over the last several years, Charlie's faith became much more evident, uh, you know, the questions. It was, it was far more common. And especially not just the clips because obviously that, you know, both sides are using clips to try to paint Charlie certain ways to the other, but if you watch the whole campus event, if you're watching the, you now, the hours that he's there talking to students. It seemed like he was talking far more Bible oriented thought, Jesus oriented, gospel oriented things. And I say this, especially over the last couple of years. And so is this something, Frank, that do you think he was doing that because he was becoming more comfortable in communicating, or do you think it's also because his faith was growing stronger as maybe, you know, he's getting kids and obviously sometimes parents, when they get kids, they think about things differently. Uh, as you're navigating, leading a family, what do you think it was that he's more comfortable speaking or became deeper, or was it some of both?
Frank Turek [00:12:20] Yeah, it's probably a bit of both, and look, Charlie said about a month before he died that politics is peanuts compared to the gospel, and of course it is, and he would always say this, politics is not our most important calling, but it helps us do our most important calling. And that is to preach and live the gospel. To make people know about Jesus, to know Jesus ourselves, and to make him known. That's why we're here. And when people say, well, you know, I just preach the gospel. I don't get involved in politics. I would always say, I guess you don't think the gospel is very important. Why? Because politics affects your ability to preach and live the gospel if you don't t think so, go to some of the countries I've been. I've to Iran. I've into Saudi Arabia. I've been to China. I was just in Egypt. You know, you can't have the WallBuilders show in Tehran. There's no first, there's no First Baptist Church of Riyadh. There's no Calvary Chapel of Beijing, you know, because politically they rule that out. And so while it's not our first important, it's our most important calling or command, it helps us carry out our most calling or our command. And we're also supposed to love people. You know, politics affects policy and policy affects people and we're supposed to care about people. So while Charlie may have been at the top of the political food chain and he was essentially. He knew that that was secondary to the gospel.
Tim Barton [00:13:46] Well, and Frank, knowing that part of why he reached out is seeming to learn how to communicate this better. I remember at this point is probably a decade ago, I had the honor of actually being able to share the stage with you at a couple of events up in Colorado with Andrew Womack, there was a church up there, Christ for All Nations. We got to do a couple events and I was so impressed. And so I downloaded the app, cross-examined. I have watched a lot of those videos, but you've been doing this. I don't want to make you feel older, date you, but you've been doing this for a while. Obviously going from military to apologetics, what led you into apologetics? And as I'm saying, you've done this for awhile. It's why Charlie was able to see these videos. You have a lot of content out there. So will you tell us maybe some of your story? And then also what are, what are some of the apologetic, maybe key things right now that Christians need to understand and and not just know what the truth is, but maybe know how to communicate that truth as well.
Frank Turek [00:14:47] Well, I came to faith through apologetics by reading books by Josh McDowell, evidence demands a verdict and more than a carpenter. And then I had the opportunity to meet Norman Geisler in 1993 and at the time he was sort of the Michael Jordan of apologetics and he was starting a seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina. So in 1993, my wife and I and our three sons moved here to go to seminary. There was no internet back then. You know, you couldn't do it online. You actually had to go there and learn and that's still the best way to learn in person. Because you can interact with people, you have lunch with them, you know, during the breaks you can ask questions. It's much better to do it in person than online, but I understand the convenience of online. So that's how I got involved in it. And then he and I wrote a couple of books together. One's called Legislating Morality and the other's called I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist.
Tim Barton [00:15:37] Which is a great book. I haven't read the first one. The second one, phenomenal. Highly encourage that to every listener.
Frank Turek [00:15:43] Well, you can't be saved unless you read it. I don't know if you know that. Look, I don't make the rules, Tim. I don't make the rule. So I'm just telling you. All right. So, so then in 2006, I started this ministry called cross-examine.org where we go to colleges, high schools and churches and present the evidence. Largely from the book, I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist. So we deal with the truth exists as God exists or miracles possible is the New Testament telling us the truth about the resurrection. If the New Testament is telling us the truth about the resurrection, game over, Christianity is true. You know, if Jesus predicted and accomplished his own resurrection from the dead, then Christianity is True. That means Jesus is God and whatever he teaches is true, Jesus taught the Old Testament is the word of God. He promised the New testament. We know that because we can put historical tests on these documents. We call the New Testament and we can trust that they are historically reliable. If that's the case, Christianity is true and the Bible is true that's what the book goes into. That's what we explain on college campuses. And that's why we get a lot of questions from people on Christianity. And if they go to our YouTube channel, two words on YouTube, cross-examined, two words, examined with a D, they'll see almost 3,000 videos. Many of these are from college campus events, a lot a Q&A, so that's where you're seeing all those videos.
Tim Barton [00:17:01] And you do have cross-examined.org. You do have the cross-Examined app. You have a lot of stuff out there. And as you mentioned, you have books you've written. And so you've been doing this now for decades. And in the midst of you doing this, as you mention, you've on a lot campuses. And you are somebody who I would argue has a pretty good understanding, not just of what is biblically true in sound, but also where the rising generation is. And we can look back at people like Charlie and understand, man, he was so good connecting with the next generation. But obviously, I mean, Frank, you've been doing this for a long time too, as parents are navigating or grandparents, like how do we help our kids come to truth? What do you think are maybe some of the big topics or conversations we need to cover? And what would be good tools to help parents and grandparents encourage their kids in discovering the truth of maybe the knowledge of God, Jesus, the Bible, et cetera?
Frank Turek [00:17:57] Well, we have the book, I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist. We have a curricula on that. We have an online course. We have the, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist podcast. These are all resources that people can get. If they go to crossexamined.org, again, CrossExamined with a D on the end of it.org they can see all this. And we have videos all over the place. We need to teach our kids very young that Christianity is true. And those four questions I just mentioned, does truth exist? Does God exist? Are miracles possible? And did Jesus really rise from the dead, as the New Testament says? If you answer yes to all those four question, Christianity is true. We also have an app, by the way, that has some of these evidences and also answers to tough questions. It's called the cross-examined app, two words in the app store. Uh, all this they can get the salt, you know, most of this stuff is for free. They could get it. The curricula obviously cost money and online courses do, but everything else is pretty much online and people can avail themselves of it and do it very young. Ground kids in the truth of Christianity now because they're being reverse-discipled by their iPhone, by their droid, by the culture, by social media, so you need to that in a very strong way. By showing them that yes, God does exist. Yes, Jesus did rise from the dead. Yes, there is a God, you are not him and you need a Savior and it's Jesus. And you can answer all these questions you get, if God, why evil? And if God is good, why did he kill the Canaanites? All these things you get on a college campus, they can be answered and that's what we do in our ministry.
Tim Barton [00:19:40] Frank, it's so good. And to your point, if we are not intentional at discipling, the world is. And so if we neglect it, the world's not. Our kids are being discipled, it's just who's discipling them. And if we're not intentional about it, we miss these opportunities. Frank, again, cannot encourage people enough. Cross-examined, there's .org, there is the app, the YouTube channel, there so much good content. And this is something that, Frank, I love watching some of your videos. To even help my own self navigate when I speak at times. How do I answer some of these questions, et cetera? And as you mentioned, sometimes being trained in person is the best, and if people wanna see you in person, is there a place, a travel schedule, event schedule, where they can come here, or maybe even request you to come speak to their church or their group?
Frank Turek [00:20:31] Sure! All that's at cross examined.org. You can click on invite us to campus or invite us to church, we have our event calendar up there. We've got a bunch of colleges coming up right now. We've Got, uh, we've got Ohio state coming up. We've, got UC Berkeley coming up, I was supposed to be there with Charlie. He's going to remain in glory. I'm going there with Rob Schneider. We've got Boise state coming up, we've got the university of Alabama coming up. And a whole ton of college events and church events coming up in 2026. All that's on our calendar.
Tim Barton [00:21:03] I love it. CrossExamined.org on the website, Cross Examined on YouTube, Cross Examined in the App Store. Frank, thanks so much for being with us. We're so grateful for who you are and what you're doing. Keep going, brother. We love you.
Frank Turek [00:21:15] Thank you, Tim. Same here. God bless you. All right. We'll be right back in a moment with David Barton and Rick Green.
Rick Green [00:22:26] Welcome back to the wall voter show. Thanks for staying with us. Thanks to Frank Turk for joining us as well again cross examined dot org cross examined dot org, great to have Frank and man, I got to get him back to Patriot Academy guys. He's so good at training on these things and it's been a couple years since we had him, but just good stuff.
David Barton [00:22:43] You know, it was really, I thought significant in talking about how that Charlie wanted that mentor. And he said, Charlie knew that if he had to be good at anything, if he was going to be good at anything he needed mentors to do that. And he reached out to Frank as one of those mentors. Like, you know, that's a really good word for every single one of us. If we're gonna be good at anything we really do need mentors. And we need people that we can ask questions to and say, help me shape. And I don't care what age you are, if you're my age, you're Tim's age or Rick's age, or anybody, everybody still needs mentors. Everybody needs people who can influence them and help shape them. And the Bible says, iron sharpens iron. And you need that rubbing with other people to kind of help put the edge on the blade. And it was interesting to see that Charlie did that early on.
Tim Barton [00:23:29] Well, I appreciate too that that Frank showed the humility to say, look, I wasn't the only one, right? Like there were several people Charlie was going to. I was just one of the guys. And also as Frank said, that, that he was learning from Charlie too, that they were helping each other get better at these arguments. And that is that, as you're saying, part of the dynamic, I mean, us three guys, we talk all the time off air about some of these different topics and conversations. What do you guys think about this? Where do you land on this Biblically, constitutionally? You know, kind of navigating this. And so this is something that we are all learning and growing from each other. And I appreciate Frank pointed out even that dynamic relationship with Charlie. He wasn't the only one. And he was learning from Charlie just like Charlie was learning from him, they were helping each other out, navigating part of that dynamic of that relationship.
Rick Green [00:24:14] I think you're so right to David that it doesn't matter your age. Every single one of us can find people to sharpen counsel with. And, and, you know, especially at a young age, but, but even, you know, a lot of people right now in their 50s, 60s, 70s, they're at that what Lance Wallnau now calls convergence. And they're, they're looking for that next thing to do to, in their mission for, for God, and you know go, go take some of our constitution classes, listen to WallBuilders and, and get sharpened by the, the programming and the interaction and the, and the interviews. I was thinking when, when Frank was describing that, even when I came to work for you, David, I was, you know, mid twenties and I'd never worked for anybody and I had always been an entrepreneur and I was like, I don't know if I can work for anybody else. And God said, go humble yourself and learn from this guy. And I, and, and originally it was like I felt like He would say, just do it for two years. Then you do whatever you want. That was 25 years ago. So thank you for still putting up with me after all these years, but everybody out there can find that person in your life and maybe several that you can sharpen counsel with.
David Barton [00:25:11] You know, I thought another really important point that Frank made was he said, politics is not our most important calling, but politics helped us to do our most important calling and that's something I think that the Christians in church have got to get ahold of with this revival that's going on is look, we're not saying be political, but we are saying if you avoid politics, you'll lose the effects of the revival because you won't change the culture. You have to get involved in politics if you're going to change the culture, which you need to change, the culture when there's a revival. And hopefully everybody get that point as well.
Tim Barton [00:25:44] Well, and Dad, I would add to that, obviously I agree with the tone and sentiment, but even like Frank said, you have to be political or you can't be spiritual, because if you're not political, they can take away your religious freedom to do the most important thing. So it's not just that we need to focus on the spiritual and include the political. No, you need to, focus on political at the same time, because it allows us those freedoms. One of the things we've said long about America, is everybody in the world has inalienable rights, but in America, those inalienable rights have been politically protected. That's what's made us different. We politically protect the freedom of speech, the freedom or religion, et cetera. If they're not politically protected, you can't enjoy those in alienable rights. That's why we have to be involved in the political process.
Tim Barton [00:26:28] Well, folks encourage you to do your part. Everyone has a voice. I don't think you've got to have a radio program or a speaking circuit platform or whatever it might be. There are people in your life that will listen to your voice. So get trained, get some iron sharpening done and then start speaking. Thanks so much for listening to the WallBuilders Show.
