The WallBuilders Show
The WallBuilders Show is a daily journey to examine today's issues from a Biblical, Historical and Constitutional perspective. Featured guests include elected officials, experts, activists, authors, and commentators.
The WallBuilders Show
Survey Shock: Churchgoers And Worldview
What happens when people fill pews but drift on first principles? We sit down with researcher George Barna to unpack a new survey of frequent churchgoers that reveals only 11 percent hold a biblical worldview, a third prefer socialism to capitalism, and support for Israel rarely moves beyond prayer. It’s sobering, but it’s also a roadmap. If we can see clearly where formation has failed, we can rebuild how we teach, mentor, and live the faith in public.
We dig into why worldview isn’t an academic word—it’s the lens behind every decision you make. From voting and stewardship to generosity and courage, belief drives behavior. We explore how moral relativism sneaks in when churches avoid hard topics, and how kindness without conviction becomes a substitute for obedience. On economics, we separate personal charity from state control and connect Jesus’ teaching on stewardship, diligence, and envy to today’s policy debates. On Israel, we outline a layered approach: pray, learn the history, understand the covenant thread, and support allies with wisdom and care.
Most importantly, we talk solutions. Doing the same programs harder won’t change outcomes. We share practical steps for pastors and families to raise biblical literacy, measure spiritual growth, and bring scripture to bear on contested cultural issues. You’ll hear where to find the full report from the Cultural Research Center and Family Research Council, how to start a worldview series in your church, and why this moment is a “checkup” the American church can’t ignore. If you’re ready to move from sentiment to conviction to action, this conversation will help you chart the way.
If this resonates, subscribe, share with a friend, and leave a review. Then grab the report, bring it to your pastor, and tell us how you’ll start building a stronger worldview in your home and church.
Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. Thanks for joining us today where we're taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. You can find out more about Wall Builders at our main website, wallbuilders.com, wallbuilders all one word dot com. And that's where you can get all kinds of great materials and just kind of catch up on what's going on in the world from a biblical, constitutional, and historical perspective. And then if you want to catch up on the radio program, that's wallbuilders.show, wallbuilders.show to catch up on some of the programs from the last few weeks and months. David and Tim, we got quite a week for Thanksgiving. I mean, Bill Federer will be with us a little later in the week. We'll, of course, be doing a Thanksgiving show of our own. We've got let's see, Mike Barry coming in tomorrow. Going to be talking about some of the stuff First Liberty is doing and restoring faith in America. Of course, a great week to do that. And then today, George Barna will be with us. Kind of give us the lay of the land as we're approaching the end of the year. Start thinking about what we need to be doing to restore faith in America and our country next year. So, it'll be good to have George on, but gonna be a great week guys!
Tim Barton [00:01:09] It really will. There's a lot of fun stuff as you kind of alluded to that we are excited as we don't always lay out a week in advance and kind of know where we're going that week. And you know, especially with this year early on with all the things happening after President Trump's inauguration, that what Congress has done, of course, with Charlie's murder and then the shutdown of Congress. There's just been a lot of unique things this year that have it really kind of steered more of our weekly conversations than sometimes we're able to lay out and direct a little bit. But this week I'm super excited.
Rick Green [00:01:46] Very often the night before, right? Like we'll we'll be like, oh my goodness, this happened. We gotta totally change our plans for what we're gonna do for the show. So yeah. .
Tim Barton [00:01:53] Yeah. It's a fact. And it makes us really grateful that we have really good friends that are gracious and kind. And we're like, hey, can we book you another time? I'm so sorry. We need to cover this topic or you know, whatever it is. And so all right,.
Rick Green [00:02:07] Can you come on in like 20 minutes? Those kind of friends too.
Tim Barton [00:02:10] You know, that's a fact. We've had a lot of those this year. So and actually, I feel like we're even setting up now, like part of why we're thankful and why we should be thankful from the WallBuilders Show, our program. But with that being said, there’s a lot of things today I'm excited to get into. Mostly that this I would say this might be the one show this week. That is not going to be as Thanksgiving filled, because as we're looking at the survey that George Barna has helped to do, and we actually we talked to a counterpart from the Family Research Council maybe a month ago, when this study first came out, and kind of did a breakdown of what we are seeing inside of churches. That's what this the survey, the study really honed in on was the frequent church attenders, the people that are going to church at least once a month, but often they're in church three and four times a month, meaning going to Sunday service. So, these are the people that are the most frequently in churches, and it was a reflection of what their beliefs are. There were a lot of things that were concerning, recognizing kind of what the church has not been teaching. One of the things, guys, we we've talked about, I know off air a lot. I think we've probably talked about it on air some too, is so many of the cultural problems we are seeing is merely a reflection of what the church has not been speaking to or the issues they've not been leading on over the last several decades. And that's why that there's the cultural battles, the cultural uncertainty, even among Christians not knowing where to stand on the issue. And this survey really gives a great reflection. So, this isn't just us having a gut reaction and maybe anecdotally saying, hey, we haven't seen pastors covering this and look at this issue we're dealing with. That this is actually the data that George has been able to go in and talk with people going to church every week and saying, hey, so what do you think about this issue? What do you believe about this? Where do you stand on these topics? And by and large, these are issues that are not that confusing biblically. But the fact that the average church goer, not the average, the consistent church goer, the fact that the consistent church goer has shown to be so confused in some of these areas that again, we would contend are not that confusing in scripture, is very revealing of maybe the either neglect from pastors or the poor strategy, the misdirection, right? And this is not just a to heave criticism on pastors, because ultimately, I think it's it's gonna be super helpful for pastors to go, oh, you know, I thought our people knew this topic because this was super obvious. But if they don't, let's go back and rehearse this. Let's go back and review it. So, this is not an overt criticism of pastors, but certainly it's a reflection that much of the way we've been doing church for the last several decades has not been effective in equipping people or making disciples.
David Barton [00:05:03] You know, I think this this program is really helpful too in some other ways as well. I was thinking about some Bible principles and one of 'em goes to something Rick and Tim, I've told both of you guys, is hey, you guys need to go get regular physical checkups, get blood work done, get other stuff, because getting ahead of a problem, finding out a problem before it's a big problem, it's a whole lot easier to deal with. It's also a lot cheaper to deal with. It's cheaper to get a physical and blood test than it is to find out that there was something going on that's gonna take some catastrophic kind of attention. And so, you know, that's one of the things Barna does so well is help us kind of look in the mirror. And you know, James says, hey, don't be the person that looks in a mirror and sees something messed up and just walks away and doesn't fix it. I mean if you look in the mirror and you see your hair is messed up or you know, you got some crud on your face or something, clean it off and move on. And that looking in a mirror is really important. And as I was thinking even about that verse in James 1, I was reminded of 2 Corinthians 13:5, that says we all need to examine ourselves to make sure we're in the faith. And I I think we all kind of get comfortable with what we're believing from time to time and maybe we've drifted and don't really recognize we've drifted until somebody can take us back and say, Hey, here's the baseline right here. H here's what the scripture says. Oh, I'd forgotten about that and so we've kind of drifted off. And so, I think it's really good from that standpoint, and then also Just from the more church standpoint, in Proverbs 20:7, we're told to be diligent to know the state of your flocks. Know the condition of the church. Know what his sheep. I mean, he's a shepherd, we're the sheep. Know what's going on with the sheep, know what the condition is. And so, this kind of stuff that George does, I think is really, really significant. And it's really a good time for us to stop and say, okay, is there anything in what I just heard that I need to check myself on, maybe readjust on, maybe I've slipped on and haven't thought about it and I need to come back to to dead center on this stuff. So, I think it's gonna be a really helpful program from George.
Rick Green [00:07:07] Yeah, one of my one of my mentors, Zig Ziglar, always said a checkup from the neck up. So, this will be a checkup from the culture up or I was trying to think of a good one. That's not very good. I'll think of a better one on the break. All right, George Barna, when we return. So, stay with us, folks. You're listening to the WallBuilders Show.
Rick Green [00:08:25] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show and welcome back, George Barna. Always good to have you, George. Hey man, thanks for coming on today.
George Barna [00:08:31] Well, thanks for having me, Rick. Good to be here.
Rick Green [00:08:34] Unfortunately, I think we have some bad news to share with everybody, but you and I both always approach the bad news polling as an opportunity. We get a chance to go educate people and turn this thing around, right?
George Barna [00:08:46] Phenomenal opportunities await us. Yeah. Yeah.
Rick Green [00:08:51] It's a target rich environment. It's is the way we gotta look at it, right?
George Barna [00:08:56] You know, the beauty of this is you don't even have to aim. You just shoot and you've got to hit something.
Rick Green [00:09:03] That's good. That's good. Oh man, you call it this new one is let's see, social issues and worldview. And this is specifically is I can't remember if this is general or this is churchgoers, right? This is specifically people that attend church.
George Barna [00:09:16] This one is just among churchgoers, yes.
Rick Green [00:09:19] And of course we have a one hundred percent biblical world view for everyone that you interviewed, right? Like they nailed it. I mean everybody. Want no? What is that?
George Barna [00:09:30] Rick is on drugs. Rick is on drugs. I wish we did, but I mean we're not even close.
Rick Green [00:09:37] I have to laugh to not cry, George, just so you know. I'm I I have to this is my way of keeping joy when I realize how bad the church is failing in America.
George Barna [00:09:46] Well, it it's true. I mean the data's showing us that eleven percent of the people who regularly attend Christian churches have a biblical worldview.
Rick Green [00:09:55] Eleven. One out of ten, basically.
George Barna [00:09:58] Yeah, barely.
Rick Green [00:10:01] Wow. And that and of course, you know, we've talked a lot about this in the past. When we say this, when we say this words, these words, a biblical worldview, in in simple terms, just means the way you see the world lines up with what the Bible says about how we should live.
George Barna [00:10:17] And the importance of that, of course, Rick, is that how we see the world matters because that determines how we react to the world. You do what you believe. And so, your beliefs are critical because then they shape your lifestyle. They shape how you're going to vote. They shape whether or not you're going to share your faith. They shape how you're going to manage your money. I mean, your worldview is everything. Every decision that every person ever makes in their life flows through their worldview. So, the worldview is critically important.
Rick Green [00:10:51] I really encourage people to get the whole report, see the whole thing. What would you say are the highlights? Like what would it when you got done with it and you read through the final one, what jumped out as you is man, this this is what we've got to get people to understand and make sure people know?
George Barna [00:11:07] Well, there were several key things, actually, Rick. I mean, one is that we've still got about a third of regular Christian churchgoers who say they prefer socialism to capitalism. Wow. Mind-boggling. Yeah. You know, socialism, the you know, part of the Marxist worldview that says there is no God, the Bible is not truth, government should basically be ruling your life, these perspectives and more. So, we've got a third of churchgoers saying, Yep, that's the worldview for me. Then we also found that
Rick Green [00:11:42] Which by the way, George, though, that one just to before you move to the next one, I mean that's of course reflective of the Declaration of Independence because it says life, liberty and the redistribution of happiness. Right? Is that Is that not? May I maybe I messed that up.
George Barna [00:11:58] You got the version of the book that was printed by Moscow Press. And I think you need to return that.
Rick Green [00:12:04] Yeah, I think so too. Okay, sorry. So yeah, that, you would think that that's what it says based on those third thinking that all right, what was your second one? I'm sorry.
George Barna [00:12:14] Second one is that church going Christians are really lukewarm toward Israel. We ask simple questions about, you know, what's it important to do for Israel? Is it important to pray? Is it important to talk to other people about the importance of supporting Israel? Is it important to have our government support Israel? Is it important for you personally to invest some of your personal resources into supporting Israel? The only one that got a majority of churchgoers saying, yeah, that's very important, was praying for Israel. So that's a good thing, but we only had 60% of regular churchgoers saying it's important to even pray for Israel. So clearly, we've got a lot of issues there. And then, of course, the other thing that we looked at in this study was people's worldview. And we found that it's a minority of regular churchgoers who say it's even very important for a Christian to have a biblical worldview. Maybe that's why only eleven percent of them have one. Just that mentality of I don't know what my worldview is, I don't think my worldview matters. And if it's a biblical worldview, well, that's probably not that much different than any other kind of worldview. That is mind boggling stuff that tells me in our churches we've got to get back to teaching the Bible, showing people how important the Bible is, why we know we can trust it, as well as what it actually teaches. It appears that we're not doing any of those things.
Rick Green [00:14:01] Man, and that and that and that third one that you mentioned, I mean, that is that is the result of moral relativism for sure. I mean, it sounds like they basically see all views as equal and everybody just kind of pick what you want yours to be, which again lines up with the declaration 'cause it says we hold these morally relativistic, equally good ideas to all be true and there are no false ones. I think that's how it starts there in the....
George Barna [00:14:23] I told you to return that book to Moscow Press. Come on, man.
Rick Green [00:14:28] And you and of course, you know why I keep coming back to this, because it's, you know, if the church does not understand, this is the American value system that made us great in the first place. So how in the world are we going to become great again if the church doesn't understand these basic, you know, basic ideas that there is a truth, there's a right and wrong, the Bible is the source that that that you know we are supposed to support Israel and even just support our allies. They're our allies. There's a lot of reason we could reasons we could talk about supporting them. But then, you know, also that that I mean, how many how many parables does Jesus use to teach economics and teach capitalism and teach, you know, not to have a minimum wage and all these different things? It seems like we're just tearing out parts of the Bible and either not teaching them or twisting them or something. But this is these are significant numbers that are rejecting what used to be considered basic biblical truths.
George Barna [00:15:18] Well, Rick, I think that's why what y'all are doing at WallBuilders is so critical because a lot of what you teach, which of course is scriptural but it's also historical, is not something that pastors receive in seminary or get in Bible colleges. And so, you are adding what pastors need to know in order to be able to teach these things. So don't stop doing the stuff that you're doing. It's critical.
Rick Green [00:15:48] Well, you're right. That that's how to change these numbers, right? We have to raise, you know, fortunately, you know, I'm unfortunately I'm ignorant about a lot of things. Fortunately, ignorance is curable. And so, I think we could say the same thing is true for the church in general and with regard to why having a biblical worldview is important and what a biblical worldview is, we're just ignorant. I think a lot of people think they're just being a good Christian because they're being nice to people and they just don't know these things that we're asking them about here.
George Barna [00:16:17] Most church going people think that all people are basically good. That's unscriptural. Most church people think that it's not that important for them to learn the scriptures. It's more important for them to act kindly toward other people. Most church going people, you know, would say that success is based on you working really hard and being able to accumulate the things that bring you happiness and that allow you to take care of your family, as opposed to understanding that the Bible teaches us that success is consistent obedience to God has nothing to do with how much you accumulate. You know, most people. I mean, you know, we've got this whole list that comes out of the survey of things that people in terms of their worldview just don't get. Yeah. And that's why the church is not attractive to people who are outside of it. Because when they talk to the people who go on a regular basis They're not seeing, they're not hearing, they're not being encouraged to believe a different way of thinking and living, one that the Bible actually espouses. And why is that? Because the people in our churches don't really know the kind of life that the Bible is calling us to lead. That's why we should be going to church to be held accountable, to be learning these things, to be working on it together. But that's not happening.
Rick Green [00:17:52] Man, yeah. So, number one, even just getting them into the church to understand the importance of that community and that place to learn these things, but then having a church that's actually feeding that so so important. George, how do we get this or can we do to you know, what's the best way to promote this and get it into the hands of more people? Go to Family Research Council's website, go to where should we go for for getting the study itself?
George Barna [00:18:16] Family research has it on their website. They've got the entire report at the Arizona Christian University website, the Cultural Research Center where I work. We've got this report where we've distilled it down into the key points that people need to know. Two separate reports there. People can download that for free. They can go to my website, georgebarna.com. We're trying to put this in as many places as possible so that people are gonna run into it and they'll read it and hopefully be interested and say, I didn't know I had to have a biblical worldview. Ooh, I didn't know that's part of what a biblical worldview is. Oh my gosh, I didn't know that's what a biblical worldview does in my life. These are critical elements for people to embrace.
Rick Green [00:19:01] See, folks, George knew he was gonna be coming and doing an interview with me. That's why that's why the Culture Research Center distilled it down to simple terms. Did y'all catch that? So that was for me. He's like, Man, you know, we're probably gonna be on the air with Rick. We gotta make this where he can understand it. So,
George Barna [00:19:16] You know, I'm just thinking he's probably not gonna return the book 'cause he's too cheap. So how can I give him something that's free and that's just bullet points and he'll read that instead of the Moscow press version?
Rick Green [00:19:30] I love it. George, this stuff is so important and I love the fact that we can have fun while we talk about it because it is incredibly serious. It's the future. It's the future of our kids. It's the future of this country. And if we don't turn it around, we really are going to crumble after the two hundred and fifty you know, years, just like most nations. So, we've got to get this right and we do have to have joy in the fight. So, I appreciate your humor and your ability to do that as well, because it's a tough subject and for pastors to wake up is critically important. So, I would say to everybody out there listening, go get this study. George Barna.com be the easiest place to go and get it. And then take it to your pastor and say, hey, what do you think about this? And what can we do to do a better job on this? And then start hosting some WallBuilders classes and help educate on these things. Let's turn this thing around. We've got a lot of work to do. More and more people are willing to at least listen and have the conversation right now. The ground is fertile. Let's get busy and get to work. George Barna, you're always great, man. I appreciate having you on, brother.
George Barna [00:20:22] Thank you, Rick. Good to be with you.
Rick Green [00:20:24] Stay with us folks, we'll be right back with David and Tim Barton.
Rick Green [00:21:33] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. I was I was thinking during the interview, David, I think George is the only guy that can churn out data as fast as you churn out presentations. It's like, I mean, he has a new study. It seems like every month. He's got a new book every year. I think he's written like 40 something books. I forget. I know you've done one at least one with him. Anyway, just love having George on and love the depth of the data. And despite all the negative, we could still have a little fun with it and have some joy going into it.
David Barton [00:22:02] Well, you know, hearing all the stuff he went through, it really kind of boils down to I'd say only two problems with all the stuff he presented and maybe kind of a corollary. And the only I mean the first problem I see is church goers are not reading, studying or believing the Bible. And second problem is pastors aren't hitting those issues, telling 'em to read, study, and know the Bible. If they are telling them, then they're not listening to them. So, it kind of boils down to I mean, this is pretty simple stuff because all the problems he mentioned go back to not reading, studying and believing what the Bible says or, you know, reading and studying it, but saying, well, I've got a different opinion or whatever. So, if pastors are teaching this stuff, is it's not getting through. And the only other thing that struck me that's kind of a problem out of what he said is that we really don't even this proves we don't even know not just the Bible, but our history. Because if you're a churchgoer and one third of them supports socialism over capitalism, not only do you not know what the Bible teaches economically, you don't know history. Because there's not a single example in history of a socialistic nation that's been able to have prosperity and keep its individual freedoms. And so, if you're a churchgoer that's leaning towards socialism, not only do you not know the Bible, you don't know history.
Tim Barton [00:23:18] Well, Dad, I would just remind as people are listening, though, right? One of the big draws towards social, I think there's many draws towards socialism for people, but I don't know that it's they don't love Jesus, they don't love the Bible. Now, certainly they might not be familiar with the Bible, but they're going, hey, we're supposed to love and we're supposed to share. I think a lot of times we've confused the role of government with the role of the individual, with the role of families, the role of church. And so, when you cross those lines, then it's easy to conflate who's supposed to do what. I also think there's probably some people being drawn in by the fact that there's a housing crisis and lack of affordability. And so, I think there's a lot of factors, but to your point, if you have clear understanding of the Bible, which usually comes from clear teaching of the Bible, this shouldn't be confusing. But I would push back when you said that, you know, the troubling thing you heard as if there was only one troubling thing that was heard. Because if Rick is shopping in Moscow, I feel like that's a bigger problem than we realized. I don't know how they printed Declarations of Independence in Moscow, right? Like this is a major problem. But one thing too, that that I would love both your feedback on this. One of the things that I am moderately concerned with is I think for any pastors that do look at this study and encourage everybody, go look this up either from George Barna or they're through websites, right? So, from the culture and research center from FRC, go look up the study. But if you do, one of the concerns I have is that a lot of pastors are gonna go, man, okay, well, I've gotta, I've gotta start doing more, but instead of doing something different, they're just gonna try to do what they're doing even harder. And Rick, I'm gonna say this because you might appreciate it. It's gonna be lost to my dad. But in the office, right? There's the moment when Steve Corell, was it like dating Pam's mom or somebody? And Pam's like, you can't date my mom. And he says, I'm gonna date her even harder, right? I feel like there's gonna be pastors who are like, well, I'm gonna do this even harder without recognizing the problem, isn't that you haven't been going hard in the direction you're going. The problem maybe is that we need to reevaluate how we're doing. Not that you're not doing enough of it, but maybe that you need to do something different. And I think one of the the cautions in my kind of inner man, my spirit, it's like, oh man, I hope pastors aren't just like, I'm gonna do this even harder. Because the reality is the reason we're in this mess is because pastors have been doing so much of things that have not produced the right kind of fruit for decades. So, we don't need more of that. We might need to go back and revisit what we are doing and how we are doing it.
Rick Green [00:25:59] I have to admit I must have just a little bit of Steve Correll's character, Michael, in me, because when I'm not sure if I'm going the wrong direction or not, like you know, like GPS isn't working or it's weird, instead of going slow until I figure out where I'm going, I speed up, thinking that's gonna help me get the right direction, but I'm actually just gonna go further in the wrong direction because I'm going faster. Anyway, yeah, I think you're exactly right, Tim. Hopefully it's a wake-up call to actually analyze what we've been doing, what's caused this lack of biblical worldview, and then how do we reverse it? So good to have George Barn. Appreciate him coming on today again. georgebarna.com, easiest place to go and get that full study. And then of course, wallbuilders.com. If you want to be part of the solution and actually raise that biblical worldview in your family and in your community, check out some of the materials there. Thanks so much for listening today to the WallBuilders Show.
