Kids First: Rethinking Marriage Policy - with Katy Faust

What if the way we define marriage is quietly reshaping childhood—for worse? We open the conversation with a child-first lens and ask the question most debates avoid: does public policy exist to validate adult desires, or to protect a child’s right to both mother and father? Katie Faust, founder of Them Before Us, joins us to explain how the 2015 redefinition of marriage flattened biological reality and turned parenthood into a credential adults acquire, often without the adoption safeguards designed to protect kids. From IVF mandates to loosened parentage rules, she traces how systems now subsidize motherless or fatherless homes by design, measuring success by adult fulfillment rather than child well-being.

We dig into the data and the vibe shift. Approval among conservatives has dropped as people connect the dots: if sex differences matter on the field and in the clinic, they matter even more at home. Pastors are finding their voice, too—teaching clearly that marriage is a child-serving institution rooted in the complementary gifts of men and women. Katie charts a three-part plan: reframe the public conversation around children’s rights, mobilize the church into a child-centered force, and pursue a legal strategy that changes the court’s question from “Do adults have dignity?”—yes—to “Do children need their own mother and father?” That pivot anchors policy in biology, safeguards adoption as child protection, and resists pathways that bypass rigorous screening.

Together we spotlight a growing coalition of scholars, faith leaders, and policy groups aligned on one message: don’t touch the kids. We share practical ways to get involved, equip your church, and speak with clarity at home, online, and in your community. If you’re ready to move beyond slogans and defend the smallest stakeholders with facts, conviction, and compassion, this is your roadmap. Subscribe, share with a friend who cares about family and child safety, and leave a review to help more listeners find the show.

Transcript

Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. Great to have you with us here on the WallBuilders Show, taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton websites are wallbuilders.com and wallbuilders.show. Them before us guys. Today's topic is literally about the children. You know, Rush Limbaugh used to joke about how the left would claim it was for the children and they were usually undermining the policies that would actually be good for the family and good for children. Katie Faust will be with us a little later. Specifically talking about policies that are good for kids. So, looking forward to having her back. We had her just, I don't know, three, four months ago, but good to have her back 

David Barton [00:00:45] Yeah, it'll be great to have her back. She spoke to the Legislators Conference this year and she's got a great initiative going. And it really goes back to some things that we've been trying to do for the last several years. And that's kind of get marriage, traditional marriage back as the foundation of the family and the country as well. I mean, it's always been kind of a thing that you can tell when a nation is headed down in the wrong direction by what it does with traditional marriage and family, et cetera. And when the Supreme Court back to the surprise of us all in 2015 said, hey, we're going to redefine marriage. We don't care really how it's been for thousands of years or other cultures. We're going have a new definition in America. Thank you, justice Kennedy for flip-flopping on that and putting that to us. Since then, Katie has really been emphasizing traditional family and going back to it. And there's a statement that they have as the organization that I've been thinking about a lot. And she says is an organization she describes it as an organization dedicated to defending the kids' rights to have a mother and a father. And I thought, yeah, kids’ rights to mother and father. If you're a kid, you got a mother. And the father, except I was thinking about that in the sense of what that actually means. A lot of kids today don't get to choose their parents. And especially with what's going on now with gay couples and gay couples adopting their children and others. And instead of having the right to have a mother and a father, which is normal, traditional, natural marriage and family, you've now got a number of kids being raised in a situation where they never get exposed to a mother or a father and they never have that aspect. And you know, we've talked about how that God made them male and female and the Bible says male and females made He them. And He said they're made in the image of God and it really takes male and female to understand who God is because you know there's some characteristics that are kind of common for males or females maybe one's got greater strength, one's got greater beauty, what's got more tenderness, one's getting more strength, whatever. But it takes both of that to have the image of God because God is gentle but He's also powerful. And so, all those things together. And so, you you're looking now at kids growing up without a knowledge of what it means to be made the image and God because they've never seen that expressed with two genders. And that was something I had not thought of before, how that you have a generation of kids now being raised without any kind of exposure to what those genders are. And her statement that every kid has a right to a mother and a father to know that male and female influence, that's really significant. And so, with what she talked about this year at the Legislators Conference, and I think what she's gonna talk about today, just that background, it really does make a difference that you have a mother and a father at least available in the home. 

Tim Barton [00:03:34] And Dad, to your point, this is something that not every kid in this generation is experiencing a home without a mother and father, but it's becoming increasingly normalized. And that's part of what she's battling against. And certainly, when you look at some of the culture warriors on the left and the things they are advocating for, it's not simply the destruction of the nuclear family. It's the destruction any kind of identity that might be able to represent they were created in the image of God. Cause if you look at what we're doing with the transgender, the furry, and the things that are happening in culture around us, it is directly spitting in the face of the idea that we were made in God's image and we are image bearers of God. And a lot of what happens in culture is driven on selfish motivation on fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. And one of the things that she is brilliantly pointing out is we should really be reframing this because who is ultimately the one being hurt and penalized the most of this as kids. Kids should not be the pawns in some social experiment game or in some a homosexual want to play home kind of game or et cetera, et cetera. And so, she has done an incredible job of helping lead a movement of organizing individuals to have some, some common messaging. Cause there's already a lot of people that have been on the same page, but she is brilliantly putting forward some messaging and strategy in some of this. And we were happy Dad, as you mentioned, to have her to Legislature's Conference. And we are happy to partner with her in some these initiatives going forward. And now we're happy to have on the radio program. 

Rick Green [00:05:14] Katie Faust, she's the founder and president of Them Before Us. You've read her articles, probably in Newsweek, USA Today, The Federalist. I mean, all kinds of places. And as Tim and David mentioned, had her at the Legislators Conference to help inform and equip those legislators. But today she's going to inform and equipped all of us. So we're looking forward to having her. We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:06:41] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Katie Faust back with us from Them Before Us. Katie, God bless you. Keep up the great work and thanks for coming on. 

Katie Faust [00:06:49] Thank you, Rick. Nice thing about being with you is I finally have a host that matches my energy. So, I really appreciate you coming on at an 11 out of 10 here. 

Rick Green [00:06:58] Ha ha! Well, that comes from being around David Barton all these years and him talking a hundred miles an hour. And I'm like I have to drink lots of coffee to keep up with him 

Katie Faust [00:07:06] Very good. Well, here's hoping that your guests only have to listen at 1.3 speed to this because we're going to go fast. We're going dial them down from the 1.8 that they're used to. 

Rick Green [00:07:15] I love it. I love. Well, you were on with us, I guess, a few months back. It's been a little while. So, before we even get into today's topic. Catch us up on Them Before Us, who you guys are, what you're doing and how people can get involved with you. 

Katie Faust [00:07:27] We are the only organization dedicated to defending children's right to their mother and father, which means we are going to give you the child-centric perspective on the definition of marriage, divorce, reproductive technologies, modern families, cohabitation, throuples, birth certificates, the definition or parentage, and adoption. In all of those conversations, we are gonna say, you need to put kids first. This is primarily about their rights and their needs, not primarily about adult desire, adult identity and adult validation. And the main thing that we are working on, well, we've got several projects, but the newest one is the Greater Than Campaign. Which is specifically targeting gay marriage. We want to overturn Obergefell, and we, along with probably close to a hundred different partners, 50 of which you can see on our website, greaterthancampaign.com, are saying that exact thing. All different corners of conservatism and Christianity, Catholics and Protestants, influencers like Michael Knowles and Ali Stuckey to thinkers like Robert George, to Christian leaders like John Stone Street and Sean McDowell and organizations like AFA and the Pro-Life Family Legislative Network that's connected to WallBuilders, it is all of conservatism speaking with one voice saying when it comes to marriage, don't touch the kids. This institution is for them, not a vehicle of your adult fulfillment. 

Rick Green [00:08:50] Amen. Amen. So good, man. And there's, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think even in the last couple of years, the understanding of this, which results in the support or opposition to changing the definition of marriage has changed, that for the first time in a long, long time, it's gone down instead of up. Is that true? 

Katie Faust [00:09:11] That's exactly right. You know, we were not at a parody when it came to approval for same-sex marriage in 2015, but then it skyrocketed and went up to, you know, close to 75% in 2022. But then it started to come down, especially among Republicans. We saw a 16-point drop among people that identify as on the right. And now we're looking at approval for same sex marriage of Republicans around 49%. So it has tanked among those on the right. Part of that, I think a large part of it is because we understand that the T in LGBT went too far and everybody went upstream and said, wait a second, if gender doesn't matter in marriage, then obviously it doesn't on the sports field or in the locker room or in the clinic. But we realized biology does matter and gender does matter. And if it matters in the swimming pool or on the track, then it definitely matters in the institution that makes and raises babies. So, we are capitalizing on that very palatable vibe shift. And we're telling people that you're uncomfortable for a reason. That is because we instituted the definition of the family that overrides biological reality and children are paying the price. 

Rick Green [00:10:24] Amen. Yeah, it's almost like the pain and just the reality check of the craziness that, that it went to has awakened a lot of people. And so not only kind of the absurdity of having these guys competing in sports and all in girl sports and all of these different things cause you kind of jarred people into thinking it does seem now you're closer to this and deal with this every day. It does seem there are more pastors today than five years ago, willing to speak truth on these issues where most just ran from this and wouldn't touch it, so afraid of offending anyone even if they're just speaking biblical truth. Are you sensing a change on that front? And is that helping with those numbers as Christians begin to get an actual biblical position on this issue instead of, oh, this feels good or feels bad? 

Katie Faust [00:11:15] Yeah, a hundred percent. So, I see that in a couple of different areas. The first one is when I first started to tweet and when I got my nonprofit in 2018, I would post a picture of two men in a hospital with a shivering newborn on their hairy chest. And I would say, this is an injustice. Children need their mothers. They should not be commodified. They should be bought and sold. And very often the response from the rabble was all I see is two loving parents. That is not the case anymore. Now I post a picture of two men with a shivering newborn on their hairy chest, very clearly lifted off of the woman they commercially rented to gestate this custom ordered product. And I say, this is an injustice, children need their mothers. And everyone will quote, retweet and say things like my politics is whatever makes this illegal. So, I think that's two things. We have seen the direct connection between the validation of marriage that has dropped either man or woman from its definition, to parenthood that has dropped either mother or father from that arrangement. And people have said, hey, look, if this was just about you guys feeling like you're not second-class citizens, fine, but if this means you're denying children their mother and father, that's a problem with me. But here's the other thing. We launched this coalition about a month ago, and we had, at the time, about 37 public partners. We had major figures in our trailer video, Tony Perkins at the Family Research Council, and John Stone Street, and Albert Mueller, and Ali Stuckey, and Lila Rose, and Josh Hammer, and Michael Knowles, and everybody was in this three-minute clip that went viral, like we had five million impressions in the first week. In addition to that, we had all kinds of other state-level allies and national allies. You can go to greaterthancampaign.com. Look at the About Us page. Look at all the different people that are on board with this. There was such backlash. I mean, obviously all the right people were happy. And all of the wrong people were scared out of their boots, which they should be, because this is a genuine threat. And there was weeping and gnashing of teeth. If you go to the YouTube video of, you know, that three-minute clip of all of us talking about why marriage is, why gay marriage is an injustice to children, you're going to see hundreds of negative comments. What I loved is nobody lynched. Nobody, nobody in the coalition, nobody in the video, we have had since then about 20 other organizations say we want to join with you. So, to me, that looks like Christianity growing a spine. 

Rick Green [00:13:40] Wow, I love it. 

Katie Faust [00:13:41] That looks like people saying, you can say what you want. You can threaten, you can rattle, you can call us names and we're not going to move because you are inflicting very real harm to children and it is the church's job to say no to you. So I am, I am very encouraged. 

Rick Green [00:14:00] Oh, it is exactly what you described. It's the church, not only finding its voice, but having a spine to stand by that once they speak out and you've got kind of a three-step strategy plan. We've already touched on two of those three pretty quickly changing public opinion. We watched a little bit of that happen, but we've got to do more and more of that. The church being transformed into a fighting force for this and being willing to stand strong. Then your other one is the judicial and policy strategy. Where we really do focus on the kid and not how the parent is feeling and, you know, what's going to make them feel good. I mean, so many movies, so many television shows where the dad leaves or the mom leaves because they just feel like it or they just feel better or they got to be happy or whatever. That nonsense has seeped into the culture. And what you're saying is, you know continuing to counter that, both in terms of public opinion, but judicial. So that was a long setup to the question on the judicial side. People forget that you had, for instance, Justice Kennedy completely flip his vote on this. Within, you know, two years, and I guess it depended on if he woke up and had Cheerios that morning or Froot Loops, which way his decision was going to go, but I don't think people realize it, it was, it was a close call and we can win this. This isn't a foregone conclusion that this is quote unquote, the law of the land. This was a Supreme court opinion that was based on changing opinions of Supreme Court Justices. So, with that set up, what, how would you describe to people the judicial and policy strategy? 

Katie Faust [00:15:25] Very high-level overview. What it is that gay marriage did is it flattened all distinctions in the natural family. What Justice Kennedy said is there can be no difference between heterosexual and homosexual couples as it relates to the constellation of benefits of marriage. But the constellation of benefits connects to parenthood. So now the law was forced to accomplish what biology prohibits, which is making two men the parents of a child. Or two women, the parents of a child. So, what we've seen over the last 10 years is an erasure of all of the distinctives of the natural family, like elevating a procreative aspect of marriage, like recognizing that men and women, mothers and fathers, are important to a child, like a biological connection to both parents, and if not, then adoption to safeguard the rights of the child if they can't be raised by their mom or dad. So, what gay marriage did is it says, biology doesn't matter, we're going to create new pathways for unrelated adults to acquire children without adoption screening. Gender doesn't matter. Now, it doesn't whether or not it's two men or two women or three men or one woman that doesn't matter. We are going to say procreation obviously doesn't matter infertility has been redefined so that single or same-sex couples can avail themselves to state subsidized or insurance subsidized IVF so they can manufacture motherless and fatherless children. Now the only criteria left as it relates to what makes a family is; did the adult get exactly what they want? It doesn't matter the number of parents, the gender of parents whether or not the parent is a criminal or a pedophile or a foreign national. You can mass produce children. I mean, now all of the different aspects of the natural family that were really important to children, their development, their identity and their safety have been erased. So, we're gonna ask a different question. The question before the court, the question that Justice Kennedy was so concerned about is; do gay people have dignity? And the answer is, of course they do. They're our brothers, our sisters, our friends, our children. We love them. They have dignity. They're also made in the image of God. That is not the right question when you're talking about marriage. The question we will put before the court through our judicial strategy is not do gay people have dignity? The question is, does a child need and benefit from their own mother and father or is a state-assigned stranger just as good? So, we are actually going to be asking a completely different question. We are playing a completely different game than we were playing in 2015 and we are going to get a different outcome. 

Rick Green [00:18:05] Amen. Amen. Oh, so good. Katie, you're so good at this. I love having you on the program. The Bartons love having you. We got to do this more often. I'd love to get you with our Constitution Coaches as well. We've got to win this fight. And you know I think I was telling somebody this just the other day, the most vehement opposition, I think, I could say this for WallBuilders as well, I know I can say for Patriot Academy and for me as a legislator years ago, the most vehement opposition almost always came down to this issue. And it would be masked in other things, but at the end of the day, you would find out, oh, that's this person's real motivation and hatred for us because we would stand for biblical marriage and for protecting the kids. Is that, you know, the fact that all of these people that you had in the video and are in this movement haven't flinched and haven't been... Not scared, I don't think they were even scared in the past. I think it was just, they, they preferred to pick, take on other fights because this one was so vitriolic. Man, it, their opposition has not changed. Their tactics have not changed, but our side, just, just stronger, more emboldened what, how do you, how did you describe it? 

Katie Faust [00:19:21] I agree. And I'll tell you exactly why. Like, I know that there's a lot of people that did not move on the topic of marriage, even though supposedly the culture did. And now we were on the wrong side of history. I mean, I knew a lot people that said, I don't care what five Supreme Court justices say, this is the truth. But what I do see is a new boldness to speak publicly about it, and I'll you why. It's because we are reframing the victim. The reason why we have the massive cultural and legal overhaul that we seeing today is because gay adults successfully framed themselves as victims. If we do not get to redefine the most child-friendly institution the world has ever known, we are victims. And unfortunately, the culture and the courts went along with that. But the reality is, and you know, here I'll say one other thing. The right got it wrong when it came to opposing gay marriage, because we said, oh no, because if you get gay marriage... Christian adults are going to be the victims. We will have to bake cakes or sign marriage licenses or arrange flowers that we don't want to arrange. They are not the right victims. Okay, adults are not the victims of marriage policy gone wrong. Children are the victims and I don't know a lot of people that will lose friends over saying, this person should be able to opt out of photographing a gay wedding. But I know a lotta people that will say, I'll lose friends over saying you should not purchase and sell children for heterosexual or homosexual men who might be pedophiles who can acquire them because we're now under an Obergefell regime that says that if you intend to parent the child, then you get the baby. There is a framework of understanding that children are the victims that not only embolden people to speak up because it is socially costly, but it also makes so much sense of what God has made explicitly clear in His word. It gives the why behind what God says. So properly understanding that children are victimized through bad marriage policy is going to be the way that we change this, not just in the courts, but in the court of public opinion as well. 

Rick Green [00:21:27] Oh, so good. So good. And you're so right. And this isn't theory. This isn't we don't have to wonder if this will happen. It's like every week, there's another headline of someone that's been, you know, arrested or convicted for pedophilia who was set up as a parent and set up, as a, you know a couple to two guys to take these kids. Anyway, it's just disgusting and awful and wrong. And we're finally, you know people are waking up to that. So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right, let's do the website again. Greaterthancampaign.com ; greaterthancampaign.com People can sign up there get involved, learn how to articulate this issue with their friends and their family, get pastors to speak on this more. The three steps one more time; a judicial and policy strategy that centers children's needs, changing public opinion so Americans understand the link between natural marriage and child protection, and then a church transformed into a child-centered fighting force. Katie Faust, God bless you. Let's get you back really soon 

Katie Faust [00:22:24] Always great to be with you. We love WallBuilders. If you want to talk about people that stand firm and have a spine, you guys have been doing it longer than almost anyone else. 

Rick Green [00:22:34] Thank you, thank you, thank you. So, stay with us folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton. 

Rick Green [00:23:45] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Thanks to Katie Faust for joining us again. Her website, thembeforeus.com. That's thembeforeus.com. Back with David and Tim Barton and guys, it looks like the, you know, potentially the pushback and the, and the ability to overturn yet another bad Supreme Court decision from the last couple of decades is in the works. 

David Barton [00:24:07] Well, I tell you, it's really fun to see how many things the court has retreated from in the past eight to 10 years that it did 10, 15, 20, 40 years ago, 60 years ago 70 years ago. So it's coming back to a much more constitutional position. And in doing that, I mean, she had so many good statements about this, but in 2015, I love what she said is the court said, biology doesn't matter and gender doesn't matter. And you know, that's really true. That's really what's taken over in the last 11 years is biology doesn't matter. Gender doesn't matter. We're bigger than biology and gender and we can tell you... And that's just not working out and we're seeing that in polling. Rick, as you talk to her, I mean the polling is going back in our direction for first time in a good while. And it was it was significant too that you guys concluded and I love what she said; it looks like Christianity is growing a spine, you know, which what a weird thing to have to say, because with Christ, you should have that boldness, the righteous are bold as a lion. You shouldn't have to grow a spine if you're a Christian, but American Christianity has become so wimpy and so tolerant of everything that accepts everything. And it's just, it is good to see things starting to move back in that direction. Now, this is not going to be an easy battle necessarily. I mean, the other side puts a lot more effort in this than we've been putting into it. But I do think things are starting to change. 

Rick Green [00:25:28] Well, thanks to Katie Faust for joining us. Thembeforeus.com is the website. Thembeforeus.com and just almost like a good news Friday. We're seeing these things turn around on these major, major issues where it looked like we did just have these huge defeats and now in a few short years starting to turn the tide. Even seeing the polling data change and of course these efforts to potentially turn things around at the court as well. So really appreciate all the hard work they're doing over at Them Before Us and thanks to Katie for joining us on the program today as well. Be sure and visit our websites today, wallbuilders.com and wallbuilders.show. The dot show is of course the website for the radio program. You can catch up on programs you might have missed. Typically, our weeks are Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday interviews with special guests like Katie today, and then Thursday's Foundations of Freedom Thursday, that's your chance to ask questions. You can send those questions to radio@wallbuilders.com. And then Fridays are Good News Fridays, a great program to share with your friends and family. I hear from people all the time. It's their favorite day of the week because they love getting the good news, but all of that is available at our radio site, wallbuilders.show. And then don't forget wallbuilders.com, our main website. Get your pastors signed up for our Pastors Briefings in Washington, D.C. Get your young people signed up for the programs this summer, both the Patriot Academy and the Wall Builders Leadership Training Program. All of that available right there at wallbuilders.com. Thanks so much for listening to the WallBuildersShow.