Texas Textbooks, National Impact - with Brandon Hall

Texas doesn’t just teach its own kids, it often sets the direction for what the rest of the country reads. When publishers chase the biggest markets, Texas State Board of Education votes can ripple into national textbooks, classroom materials, and the story students absorb about American history, Western civilization, and civic life.

We sit down with Brandon Hall, a Texas SBOE member and pastor, right after major initial approvals on two fronts: updated social studies standards and a required literary works list. He explains what actually changed, why the board fought to restore factual history that’s been trimmed by revisionism, and how the standards aim to teach history in a clear chronological arc instead of a fragmented set of themes. We also talk about the reading list and why studying the Bible as literature matters for cultural literacy, worldview debates, and understanding the language of law, freedom, and the American founding.

You’ll also hear what comes next, why June is a critical final step, and how public testimony and grassroots engagement helped turn a defensive fight into real amendments and real wins. If you care about curriculum, textbook publishing, education policy, or simply want students to know the full story of the nation, this conversation lays out the stakes and the path forward.

Subscribe for more conversations at the intersection of faith and culture, share this with a friend who’s convinced nothing can change, and leave a review with your biggest question about what should be in a core American history education.

Transcript

Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. We're glad you joined us today on the WallBuilders Show. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. And we've got some good news to share with you today, even though it's not Good News Friday, so we're going a little out of turn, but it's just a great news program today, dealing with education and dealing with getting some good stuff back into yes, public school classrooms. So we've a great interview for you a little later in the program with a member of the state board of education in Texas. And I guess, guys, we probably ought to start with just a little bit of education about what the State Board of Education is. Not every state's the same, not, but a lot of them do have a state board of education and just talk a little about what they do and their role. David, you've been, man, I think probably the first state board race. I know this is the first one I was involved with you on was in the 90's, but you might've been doing it before that. 

David Barton [00:00:54] No, I think probably in the 90s is when I got involved at the state races. So, it's been, yeah, but that's still been a couple of years anyway. So, I've been through a couple those races. The state board really is super important in Texas because Texas is one of the two states that does drive the nation. Between Texas and California, you've got 24% of the nation's public-school students. So, when those publishers get standards for English or math or science or history or reading or anything, they really cater to those two states because they're the two states that have enough schools that if they buy the product, then those publishers are gonna make their money back. If you take the standards for Rhode Island or you take standards for Maine or something else, it's highly unlikely any publisher's gonna publish for those standards. And there are every one of the states, they do have a Board of Education, some are appointed, some are appointed by the legislature, some appointed by the governor, some are elected as in Texas. So they vary as elections vary from state to state, so they do here. But in Texas, what do we have now, 38 congressmen, is that what we have? 

Rick Green [00:02:05] Yeah, 38. 

David Barton [00:02:06] But there's only 15 State Board of Education members. So that's like two and a half members of Congress per one State Board of Education member. And so, the congressional district is about three quarters million. You're probably looking about 1.6, 1.7 million people that elect each State Board of Education member, so they have a big district, but it's what we would call a down ballot race because it's not one that you get much money put into. Where a congressional race might be two to $5 million a state board of education race might be $100,000, $50,000 and $70,000. So, it's a real different type of race and it's down-ballot so it doesn't get much attention but I would say it's very, very, important race because just in Texas alone we've got 5.5 million students in the schools. And then when you start taking the Texas influence in the national textbooks, now we're talking tens of millions that will be affected by what Texas does. So here in Texas, the big thing that the State Board of Education does, in addition to running the protocol for Texas, is creating the content of what will appear in textbooks that will show up all over the nation. And so that is a big reason why, what you, and by the way, it's not that Texas students aren't important because they are, I mean these State Board of Education people, they vote to see what Texas students are going to get, but somebody's got to publish that. And so up to now, it's been Scott Forsman or Pearsall or McGraw-Hill or some of the big publishers. And that's the other thing that Texas is now doing. We're so large that we've decided that this time, with our standards, we're going to publish our own textbooks here in Texas for history and social studies, which means that now 100% of what we come up with on the State Board of Education is going into the textbooks. That will make a very conservative, very constitutional, very historically accurate textbook as opposed to trying to include the DEI stuff of California and all the other stuff they have. So, when that Texas textbook comes out this cycle, I think we're going to see a massive surge of other more conservative, less woke states saying, hey, we want the Texas textbook. So, I think it'll become a national textbook very quickly once it's released. 

Rick Green [00:04:21] Yeah, so vitally important, not just for us, but for the rest of the country. And of course, Tim, as you've been going around and testifying to any state legislatures on some of these, you know, Bible in schools, getting the Ten Commandments back in schools. That's a big part of what this fight was about as well, just for the reading list. 

Tim Barton [00:04:36] It is because it goes to a lot of the history and tradition standard, which we currently have, but so many legislators at which at that point, also we could include so many Americans, so many parents, so many teachers, academics, they don't know much of the history of the nation. At least the way that they should, the way that we understand it, you know, they know some kind of sanitized or secularized version. And so some of the opposition and pushback are because they don't recognize, for example, that the foundational components of the Bible in early America or the Ten Commandments on the legal code in America, etc. If they knew it, that there might be some worldview pushback, and of course I think there would, because your worldview drives so much of what you do, but then you're having a different argument than the argument that we might hear that, well, listen, Christianity was never really part, the Founding Fathers didn't believe in God, or they were secularists, or they wanted to separate from church and state. It changes the whole narrative if we actually knew the story, and so working to get good things in education can help change the trajectory of the nation. By helping the rising generation know the truth of our nation. 

Rick Green [00:05:44] Yeah, great stuff guys. And we've got a; we've got a great member of the state board of education joining us. Actually, young guys, like 30 years old, doing a fantastic job on the State Board and willing to come on with us today and kind of update us on this battle last week and where this thing is going and the impact that it will have. Brandon Hall with us when we return from the break, stay with us. You're listening to the WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:07:09] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Brandon Hall with us from the State Board of Education, who did just by the way an amazing job. I went down there to testify and, man Brandon, I watched you ask questions and respond and just masterful, respectful. It was some of the best civil discourse I've seen in a long time. Brandon, thanks for coming on man 

Brandon Hall [00:07:29] Thanks for having me, Rick. I'm really excited about some of the big wins that we had last week, by the grace of God. And ready to talk about them. 

Rick Green [00:07:36] You know, it was a touch and go kind of thing for a while. It looked like it was going to be a really, really close vote, possibly that we were going to lose a lot of the good stuff that y'all have been working on for the curriculum standards and just great victories by the end of the week. So, let's dive in. Would you explain a little bit about what these are? What does it mean when we say the standards or the reading list? 

Brandon Hall [00:07:58] Yeah, well, and I'm glad that you brought them both up because we had two big simultaneous wins, which is that the State Board of Education gave initial approval both to, first of all, a incredible set of social studies standards that are Texas and America and Western civilization focused. And we bring back a lot of great factual history that had been kind of through revisionism throughout the years, taken out of our classrooms that are big significant parts of America and even world history. And then at the same time, we also gave initial approval to a required literary works list to where we'll bring a lot of the great classics back into our classrooms in the state of Texas and even key passages of the Bible that are sort of foundational passages. And so that's a lot we've seen for quite a while we've seen more modern works come into our classroom that are a lot more shallow than the classics. And so, that was also a huge win to see both of those things happen at the same time. 

Rick Green [00:08:57] And this will affect; we've got audience all over the country and they need to know what you guys do on the State Board of Education in Texas affects most of these other states because it's so expensive to do this process. By the time you do the textbooks, a lot of the other states, they just say, man, we're gonna pick up what Texas did. So, this is a national impact you guys are having. 

Brandon Hall [00:09:16] That's for sure, a lot of it goes back to the market share in the textbook industry. Texas has the second largest market for textbooks and so you'll have California will be the first largest market. So, a lot the blue states will follow what California does and up to 20 red states usually are closely following Texas because those textbook companies can sell textbooks there as well. And so, what we do here is really gonna set the standard across the country and especially with those social studies standards, we're really pioneering how to teach history in a chronological manner across the story arc of history. And we're the first state to really pick that up. 

Rick Green [00:09:56] Cool! Cool! Cool! Well and so many great things that you guys got back in and honestly you know we were thinking when we came down to testify and rallied all these people you know were just hoping to stop bad amendments, you guys actually ended up getting some good amendments in.  And it actually got better by the end of the week, what happened? 

Brandon Hall [00:10:15] Yeah, we really, rather than just being on the defensive, we went on the offense. And a lot of that was because Texas Patriots really showed up and roared like a lion. And we really heard both sides. A lot of times we hear from the left because the left tends to be very organized through a lot their Soros-funded nonprofits. And so a lot times that's the only voice that we hear working in government. But this time we heard from patriots, just grassroots patriots from across the state of Texas. That wanted good factual history. And I think that gave us the courage that we needed to really go on the offense. And so we were able to put in some great amendments. I mean, we're talking about things that have been left out of history for a long time, like the role of the Great Awakening in the Independence Movement in the Colonies, the role the Black Robe Regiment in the Revolution, the fact that our pilgrim ancestors came here to advance the Christian faith, you know, those are some of the great amendments that we got passed. And I have to give a lot of credit to my Republican colleagues and especially Julie Pickering on proposing some of those amendments and it was amazing to just see them pass. 

Rick Green [00:11:22] I love that you said the Great Awakening because you know the movie A Great Awakening came out a couple of weeks ago. It's a, what great timing for y'all to get that into the textbooks. That's really cool, What about the, so like on the reading list when I was there I was hearing so many people get up and say well I'm a Christian, but I don't want the Bible in the classroom or a teacher having influence on the Bible It was you know they know how the left knows how to act like they're you know, our people and somehow against what we're for. And you just did a masterful job of picking that apart, but I was getting worried that there was so much of that. I guess y'all are used to that. Like you said, the left shows up, but it seems like you were able to keep all of that in. I mean, teaching kids the Good Samaritan and all kinds of other great principles that come from the Bible. 

Brandon Hall [00:12:07] Yeah, well, I mean, think about it, Rick, and I want the audience to think about it. Why did we ever stop teaching the bestselling book of all time as a work of literature? It really doesn't make any sense. And when we were looking at these other key classical works of literature that, you know, have really shaped our country, the Bible is the most referenced work of literature by other works of literature. And so, it's really, of course, you know, we believe that it's truth and we believe that it is profitable for everyone. And that's one of the questions that I was asking to some of our testifiers that would say that they were a pastor or a Christian, but they were against teaching the Bible in schools. Well, don't we believe that it's profitable for everyone? And we believe it's truth. And that's why it's had such a big impact on Western civilization and especially America and the levels of prosperity and freedom that we see in America. That's not by accident. That's because our nation was founded on the truth of God's Word and these key principles. And so, it's actually impossible to have a complete education without understanding these key passages from the Bible. That really shaped the world that we live in, and especially America and the state of Texas. 

Rick Green [00:13:13] Amen, amen. Oh, so good. Talk to us a little bit about process. So you guys have had this vote last week. What happens next? 

Brandon Hall [00:13:20] Well, I thank you for bringing that up because it's very important that your audience continues to stay engaged with what's coming next. This was first reading and filing authorization. So, it's initial approval. And I don't wanna take away from the big win that happened because once you get those things established, we're in a really good position moving to the next stage, but we have one final step which is what we passed this last week with the literary works list and the social studies standards will come back to the board in June for final approval. And so, we just need everyone to stay locked in, stay engaged. And I think that prayer was such an important part of the first stage. Because when you're talking about bringing key passages from the Word of God back into classrooms for the first time in 60 years, I'll tell you that wasn't just something that we're able to do politically. That was God working and moving in hearts. And so, I really want everybody to continue to pray and continue to stay engaged for June. 

Rick Green [00:14:15] Oh, that's good. That's good, well, we'll certainly remind the audience. Brandon, tell us a little bit about you, man. People don't realize, when you run for state board of education in Texas, you've got more than twice the constituency of a congressman. You've got a massive district. This is a difficult race to win. It's hard to raise money, because it's a tough race, but it is so, so important. And I think David Barton has been involved in State Board of Education races since, goodness, the 80s maybe. I know in the 90s for sure. So, we've always thought it was important, but most people don't pay attention to it. Anyway, so you've got a very important position there in the state of Texas. You're also a pastor, which I think is totally cool. We need more pastors serving in public office like this. So, what got you engaged? 

Brandon Hall [00:14:58] Well, I never saw myself running for the State Board of Education. That was nothing that I ever aspired to, but I really felt called by the Lord to get into the race initially. And then once I got in, just door after door opened up in front of me. And a lot of people would have said, well, you're not a classroom teacher, how can you be involved in public education? But I think it was really important to have a good outside voice also involved in the process. It's good to have expertise from teachers. But you need an outsider sometimes. And so God just really opened up every door in front of us in an incredible way that almost surprised everybody, including me. And I think that God has me here for such a time as this, but I am privileged also to pastor a local church in a little town called Springtown. And I'm so thankful for it. And actually, when I was running for office, one of the promises that I made on the campaign trail, I tried to be careful about making too many promises. But one of things that I did say, is that I knew social studies standards were coming up and that was kind of the real important thing. And I told everyone that if they would elect me, if David Barton would consider serving, I would definitely appoint him to be an expert content advisor. And so that was one of the highlights of my career on the SBOE so far is being able to make that happen. 

Rick Green [00:16:13] That's amazing. Oh, so cool. So cool. And I'll tell you it came in it came and strategically handy several times during the testimony because there were these, you know, liberal groups that got up and I'm a pastor and da da da. You asked some great questions that you were able to say as a pastor them. Yeah, you Know it was just it was great. So God used it in a really cool way as well during the testimonies So well, man, what's your what's what's her term like? When are you up again? 

Brandon Hall [00:16:40] Well, I would be up in 2028, so I'm still in the second year of my term right now. 

Rick Green [00:16:46] Gotcha. Okay, cool. And I understand another pastor won a primary somewhere up in the Dallas area. I can't remember the district. So they'll be with you starting in January. So then we'll have two pastors on the State Board of Education. It'll be amazing. Man, we're just so thankful for you, Brandon. Thank you. Thank you for the hard work you've been doing. Thanks for sharing the victory with us. Oh, one other thing before I let you go. I'm sorry, I'm going a little bit long here, but it sounded like you also got some of the the real history of Islam into the into the standards as well, which is, you know, the fact that Mohammed, you know, it was, you know, a pedophile, married the six year old and all that, all of the things that people don't know, you just basically got some amendments in the said, hey, we got this increased Muslim population and people talk about this. They need to know the history here. Is that is that true? Did I hear that correctly? 

Brandon Hall [00:17:34] Well, it is true that we made a lot of progress, again, going on the offensive, not just keeping indoctrination out, but, you know, telling some of the real history and here's why I thought that was really important because this is, you know the fastest growing religion in the world and, you know, according to the demographers, it's supposed to be the number one religion in world and by 2070. And so I think such a significant religion. And then you have the founder, Mohammed is one of the most pivotal characters in history and really his teachings and his followers' have really shaped, so much of our history, even to this day, we're in a conflict with Iran, it really could go back to a lot of those teachings. And so I think that it's important for our students to understand who founded this religion and what did he believe, and then how have those beliefs influenced our history. And so that is an amendment that I made to talk a little bit about Mohammed. That one did not pass this time, but we did get some good references when we talk about terrorism, especially on 9-11, we were able to add in that it was Islamic terrorism. How could you understand 9-11 without understanding that. And then we also talked about how Jihad, this is one that did pass, that the teachings of Jihad influenced the expansion of Islam and also the conquering of Christian lands. 

Rick Green [00:18:46] Wow, that's good. Okay. Okay, well cool. Well at least we got some of that in there so important to the conversation. Like you said is this is exploding across the world and now in the U.S. As well so we'll keep keep an eye on that one as well Brandon we're gonna have to get you back man, and do you know the dates for June? Can we go ahead and tell people about that or is that set yet? 

Brandon Hall [00:19:05] I need to we still need to figure out when the public testimony and everything will be for June. So I would say I just stand by for those dates 

Rick Green [00:19:12] You got it. You got it. All right, Brandon Hall from the State Board of Education in Texas. Appreciate you, man. Thanks for coming on. 

Brandon Hall [00:19:18] Thanks, Rick. Have a great day. You too. Stay with us, folks. 

Rick Green [00:19:21] We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton. 

Rick Green [00:20:21] Welcome back to The WallBuilders Show. Thanks to Brandon Hall for joining us and for the good work he's doing on the State Board of Education back with David and Tim now, and guys, we got, I mean, things in there this time. I guess, David, you've, you probably had multiple attempts at trying to get some of these things in over the last few decades, and you gotta be pleased with where the direction this is going. 

David Barton [00:20:51] Well, this is the first time we've been able to get substantive changes really made. Part of that is because now they have, there are nine of us that are appointed, two by the governor, seven by the state board of education, to come up with the core content. And I would say out of that nine, a good seven of them are, we're all of the same viewpoint in the sense that you tell all the history, the good, the bad, the ugly. You don't whitewash; you don't politicize it. You don't eliminate the religious stuff because you think that religion shouldn't be in history, you just tell the history, you tell the story. And so that helps a whole lot. And then as you move through the process, we keep running into teachers’ groups and others, and those teachers’ groups will try to eliminate a lot of stuff out of there. Their problem is a lot what happened in history they've never heard before. And so when they see something that, well, I've never heard that, they don't wanna go learn and teach it, they just wanna keep teaching what they've been teaching and the stuff we've been teachin' is the stuff out of the 60s, 70s, and 80s, et cetera. Instead of what's been accurately part of American history in the 1600s, 1700s, and 1800s. So, it's a lot of pushback. And then when you get the State Board of Education, then you start having all the lobbyists show up. And so, all these lobbyists and Democrats tend to spend money on education like Republicans don't. And they spend it on trying to get textbooks warped in their direction to help them. And so, they get a lot of groups showing up at the State board. I mean, Rick, you guys were there testifying. And the other group that was the most active in testifying is how the textbooks need to be filled with pro-Islamic stuff. Islamic groups that mobilized them were there. And so generally conservatives and generally God-fearing people don't show up that much at state board meetings. And so, it really is a tough process to get through, especially when you're dealing with education, which has been an idol of the left for the last century at least. I mean, that's kind of the idol which they worship and do all their sacrifices. And it's starting to change now, and it's starting to change in Texas, which means it will come to the rest of the nation. 

Rick Green [00:22:54] It's really, it's, it neat to see the involvement too. I was so thrilled to see so many different groups down there. I mean, people bust in literally from Dallas and all over the state to be there. They gave good testimony. They, you know, it was well thought out, good inter, you know, intellectual discussion with the board members themselves. That part was, was really good. And Tim, I was thinking, you know, what a great way to show people that when you come out and testify, when you get involved, it does make a difference. You do get victories. 

Tim Barton [00:23:22] Yeah, this is something that hopefully is encouraging for people to know that if we get involved we can make a difference. And we also guys can be really honest that there have been times we got involved and it did not work out the way we wanted but it doesn't mean you don't keep showing up. We know the Bible calls us to be faithful not always to be successful. The parables that Jesus told where He explained to the disciples it was well done good and faithful servant, not well done really successful servant. So, you don't always do it because you're successful, but it sure is rewarding when you have success. And especially in our Constitutional Republic where we the people are in charge, where it's supposed to work out the consent of the governed when we show up, it really can make a difference. And Dad, one of the things that I was even thinking when Brandon was talking about some of the incredible things coming and the Great Awakening’s influence and the Bible being the most significant literature or piece of literature in arguably the history of the world, not even arguably it is. But that some of the things that you've been talking about literally for decades when you've been fighting on the State Board, it seems like some of the things we did this time, you didn't even always advocate as loudly for because you knew like they're not going to accept the really, really basic ones, they're not gonna accept the true things that are deeper. And the fact that now this is one of the best encompassing, more honest looks at history that the State Board of Education in Texas maybe has ever had, it is so encouraging. And, Rick, as you point out, it wasn't without a fight and that's why it matters that we keep showing up, we keep letting our voice be heard. But man, we can praise God in this moment, look at all the good that is coming. 

David Barton [00:25:01] And it's not just look, again, it's not just for Texas, everybody's going to eventually get this. Now, it is not going to come in the next year or two. It takes a while, it takes a while for the textbooks to be published. But it is, I think, also an indication of the tone and the atmosphere that's out there right now. These are things that were not possible 10 years ago. And these are things that we dreamed about 20 years ago and 30 years ago, and now they're becoming reality. And that's the thing I think is so interesting is people who are in a revival, really historically never recognized it in a revival till historians afterwards said, hey, did you know that was a revival? Cause you're just living day to day and not that much changes from day to today. It changes from year to year, decade to decade. And as you look back, you go, wow, that's remarkable. And so, we're in the daily battles and you know, Rick, you were down there in the middle of that battle with all that was going on with all the groups that bussed in our side and their side. And that's the kind of stuff you see on a day-to-day basis. You don't really recognize how far we've made progress. But there is absolutely no question that this is more progress that's been made I'm going to say probably since at least the progressive era of the 1920s and 30s. This is some of the biggest progress because they took so much of the American history out at that point. This is something the biggest steps back in the right direction in perhaps a century. 

Rick Green [00:26:19] Wow. That's, that's huge, brother. Well, to all of our listeners, you have friends who have been listening to all these black-pilled, you know, podcasters depressing every day. Everything's falling apart. You need to send the today's program to those friends and let them know there's good stuff happening. In fact, as David just said, some of the best stuff we've seen in near literally a century. So this is really, really good news. Hope you share it with your friends and family. Thanks so much for listening to the WallBuilders Show.