Faith Meets Founding History

A Great Awakening is getting people into theaters and then into conversations they didn’t expect to have: Who was George Whitefield, why did Benjamin Franklin respect him, and how did spiritual ideas shape early American public life? We talk through the wave of listener feedback, including the kind that makes us smile most, when someone realizes they “know a lot about history” because they’ve been quietly learning and sharing it for years. 

Then we give the honest review many of you asked for. When a film is based on real events, we’re not looking for every line to be a perfect transcript, but we do care about tone and about the big claims that stick in the audience’s mind. We highlight what the movie gets impressively right, including moments drawn from real Constitutional Convention debates and Franklin’s powerful call to prayer. We also slow down on the controversial moment where Franklin is labeled a deist, walking through what the primary source actually says and why that label gets abused in modern takes on the Founding Fathers. 

Finally, we zoom out to the bigger cultural shift we’re sensing: a growing hunger for better stories, deeper faith, and leaders with principle. That’s why it meant so much to participate in America Reads The Bible in Washington, DC and to see national leaders publicly read Scripture. If you care about Christian history, the Great Awakening, the founding of America, and where the culture is heading next, you’ll find encouragement and practical next steps here. Subscribe, share this with a friend who loves history, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Transcript

Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. Thanks for joining us on this Thursday. We do Foundations of Freedom Thursday on Thursdays around here, which makes sense if you do Foundation of Freedom on a Thursday. Anyway, Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton and we're looking forward to your questions today. Radio@wallbuilders.com is the place to send them, radio@wallbuilders.com and then of course our wallbuilders.show website. If you missed any of the previous programs, you can go there and download the programs. And if you ever miss a Friday, don't miss a Friday. But if you did, you miss all the good news. So, you gotta go to wallbuilders.show and catch up on that. Of course, we'll have some of that for you tomorrow. But guys, we've got some similar questions. Really exciting to see this movie, A Great Awakening, taking off, and we're getting more and more comments from folks even as we're out there traveling across the country and speaking at events. But several comments we'll read today and questions from folks on that particular topic. First one comes from Marilyn. She said, I don't have a question at this time. I just want to tell you that I've listened to the WallBuilders radio program for many years, and I'm often surprised at how people say I seem to know a lot about history, but I shouldn't be surprised in other words She's listening to us and then she's repeating some of those things people say wow, you know a little bit history! I like that. Anyway, she said everything I've learned from WallBuilders is a priceless treasure. When I went to the Sight and Sound movie A Great Awakening my eyes were filled with tears often and I realized many of the tears were because I sat in awe of how much I already knew based on your vast knowledge that you have freely shared over the years. We had to find a theater out of town because none of our theaters were showing it, unfortunately. It was so worth the trip! Earlier that day I was at a store and shared with the clerk where we were going and because of her interest I talked about WallBuilders and my excitement overflowed when she wrote down your website. What a joy that was to know someone else was going to benefit from you, David, Tim and Rick. Thank you from the bottom of my heart, Marilyn. Wow, Marilyn! Thank you, thank you, before you even go to the next one guys that's got to warm your heart as well. I mean she's out there spreading the good news. She got to sit in the movie and recognize so many of those historical things that happening in the movie. Because she's been listening to the show. That's pretty cool. What a great force multiplier out there. 

Tim Barton [00:02:08] Hey guys, it's really fun. And Dad, I want to brag for just a little bit on the decades of work you've been doing, because this year there are a couple of movies coming out of stories that you've been telling literally for decades. And it's because you have The Young Washington coming out later in the year, actually very soon now, uh which is the story of the Bulletproof George Washington, Dad, you wrote that book like 30 years ago, uh it could be longer, I don't actually know. It was a long time ago. It's got a fresh cover on it now, but it is a story that you wrote a long time ago. And then you've been talking about that the Great Awakening being the foundation really of what brought the Founding Fathers together, what helped them unify. And there's lots of reasons for that. Lots of Founding Fathers wrote about it, but we've talked often about the Benjamin Franklin and the George Whitfield connection. But then I say that not because like Sight and Sound did not reach out to us and say, Hey guys, can you walk us through all of the details of Whitfield and Franklin. But I honestly do think one of the reasons that some of these stories have become more noted and actually have movies being made about them now is because, Dad, you did help people begin to learn that story. And so that information became more readily available because there were more articles written about it. More people were highlighting some of those details. And so and guys, and Dad, I'm saying this as a disclaimer for you now. You've never, you've never done any of this trying to find credit and ultimately you just wanted people to know the story, so I know you're really just rejoicing that people are learning some of that story. But I do think it's really cool that some of the stories that you've been telling for decades are now actually motion pictures and at least the first one the Great Awakening we have seen and it was a pretty good one. And the Young Washington looks like it's gonna be a really good one as well. 

Rick Green [00:03:56] I wish I had the power of the producer to mute David so that he can't say anything humble and act like he didn't have anything to do with this because I know that's what you're gonna do, David. But I'm gonna reiterate exactly what Tim said, the seeds you planted all those years ago, initially with the story of the Battle of Managahela, and then of course, you know, all the other stories about George Whitefield way before that, they have taken root. And I have evidence for that because anybody can go to wallbuilders.show and go back and listen to the interview with the guy that produced this movie A Great Awakening. Josh also said the same thing and thank you and WallBuilders for all the years of history. It is it is so true. So, David before you comment. Let me add one other in here, this is from another listener named TJ out of New Mexico. And he said; thank you David, Rick and Tim for answering the email below in the past Thursday's radio show. So, in other words we'd answered one from him before. He said my wife and daughter enjoyed hearing you read it on air and answer with facts and stats and, so anyway, he was saying thanks for that previous question. But he said I also heard the next question from a mom about going to see the new Great Awakening movie. So, we saw it today and were blessed and spiritually edified, fired up for the gospel by the story of the Reverend George Whitfield and Ben Franklin, a great contrast of Franklin's deism to Whitfield's clear gospel. I sure hope and pray many see and support this movie. I had not heard of Sight and Sound Productions. Please consider highlighting each week on your radio show how we can celebrate America's 250th and maybe even pick regions around the U.S. Like our Southwest region, spiritual history of the church in a region would be neat to hear about. May the Lord bless your work in ministry WallBuilders team. So yeah, I think same thing there. And that's great that they hadn't heard of Sight and Sound before this movie will expose Sight and Sound and the wonderful productions that they do. And like you said, Tim, more and more movies coming out. So yeah. Before we go to an actual question, which our third email about the movie has a question in it. David, man, I know you probably look at some of these things and you still pick out some of the things that might not be exactly historically accurate. But you got to recognize that WallBuilders has been a significant impact in the nation and it's caused people to fall in love with history. You made me a person that hates history when I'm in high school and college. You made fall in with history because I felt like I was on one of those horses or in that battle, you know, when you're telling the story of young Washington or even some of the other stories as well. So anyway, kind of cool to see that coming out in culture on the big screen. 

David Barton [00:06:17] Hey, but guys, I'm in the same boat. I grew up through school, hating history. I was a math and science guy because I hated history. I was so tired of the stuff I'd heard. And one of the earliest stories I ran across way back, I don't know, 30 something years ago was that bulletproof George Washington story. I read that and said, no way. And read it again. It's a no way and read it. Again. And man, this ought to be a movie someday. And we did that book and other people read it and see, this is what's so significant. I love the way the culture really works. Is once something becomes kind of viral and people start talking about it, there's people listening to it and say, hey, that would be great for whatever. And so just the fact that, you know, we started in Maryland and she was talking about how she was telling others what she was learning, that song of Solomon 8.13, it says your friends do listen to your voice, so speak. And when we start talking the things that we learn and, you now, I talked about bulletproof George Washington story and did that back in the days of a slide projector guys, 35-millimeter slide projector and made slides to be able to tell that story. I mean that was as high as the av was back in the day. It was a 35-millimeter slide projector. People get that story and they start passing around and I hope we get tons more stories like this coming out. And I think it's going to happen. I think there's a change in America 

Tim Barton [00:07:34] Well, Dad, I do want to already preface and say, that for those that are 40 and younger, they might already be asking, like, what's 35 millimeter? 

David Barton [00:07:41] Oh, good point. 

Tim Barton [00:07:42] What's a slide projector? 

David Barton [00:07:43] Good point. 

Tim Barton [00:07:43] So I'm just saying, like you're saying it was a long time ago. This is back like when houses used to have telephones and actually the cord for the telephone was like spiraled and circular and got like, it was long time ago for those.... And I'm joking now about the phone, but not totally because that's still kind but true. But yeah, it was 30 or 40 years ago. You were using the most advanced technology, arguably, that was really available to tell the story. And then the fun thing that you've always done is that made, made a lot of what you did very different from a lot of the academic world is you would show the pictures as you told the story, so it let people's imagination be able to participate on a greater level when they saw George Washington or him on a horse or the cannons or the valley or whatever it was that you were showing. And then even including some of the quotes from the letters so, they're actually reading on the screen what he actually wrote back to his mom or whoever it was the time. But to your point it was a very long time ago when this started but look where it is now. It's incredible 

David Barton [00:08:54] And, you know, the cool thing is I think it's only going to go up from here, because I think that started kind of a cultural awakening going on in America. We believe there's a revival going on. We hope it's going to become an awakening. But people's heart wants different kinds of stories and different themes from what they've had for so many years. And we're just seeing that resonate with so many good films and good entertainment things coming out and what Sight and Sound does anyway on so many other stories, I just think it it's a really wholesome time in America. And the movies that are really doing well at the box office aren't the movies we were doing well 10 years ago. It's a whole different climate change. So, I think there's something really positive going in the nation right now, which is great. 

Rick Green [00:09:33] David you just said a climate change that I could actually support. I've always been against this whole climate change hoax thing, but you just mentioned the climate change so that can be fully behind. 

David Barton [00:09:43] This is, this is one I'm behind too, Rick. I was on the other side for a long time, testified against climate change. And you know, it is amazing to me, by the way, you raised this, it was amazing to me how quickly that, that Europe has abandoned climate change, you know? They've had those three conferences, the Copenhagen conference, Kyoto conference, Paris conference, and for decades, it's the, you know, the massive climate change and within 18 months, they have completely abandoned that and moved onto something totally different. And it's just... Awesome how quick that happened and we knew it wasn't going to change that you know God's put the cycle of laws and nature laws of nature. And based on the laws of nature, we've done this so many times in history and throughout the history of the globe. This is not a new deal and to be getting panicked over something that happens periodically, we knew it was not going to be a big deal. But it's really cool to see how fast even the secular folks have abandoned this nonsense 

Tim Barton [00:10:39] And Dad, what you're saying is what is evident in nature is that there are times when it trends hot for a while and then it trends cold for a while. So that's the thing you're seeing is very evident in nature. That's a thing that is now people have kind of come off that soapbox. But also, one of the things, the old adages that is still true in this is follow the money. And you know, so much of the narrative has been shaped by where there is money to be fundraised, money to be promoted for agendas or for power and control for some of these kind of one-world government kind of scenarios. Not to digress on this because that was not the question going back to the fact that part of the Awakening movie is actually a little reflective of part of the awakening in the culture, which is the shift of culture, which is climate change that we're referring to. And it's probably more of a spiritual climate change as much as anything else, which is just one more evidence of God moving in this nation, revival happening in this nation and having a film like A Great Awakening is a really fun thing to go see, to be inspired, to be part of this move of God. 

Rick Green [00:11:46] Yeah, I was thinking about what our first caller, not caller, writer, what do we say to somebody? What do we call our emailer? Anyway, the first person's comment, Marilyn, when she talked about my eyes were filled with tears often, oh Marilyn, same, absolute same, so many powerful, powerful scenes. And guys, we've actually got a lot of other questions specifically on the movie, both in person, we're getting this everywhere we go, but also more and more people We're writing in. Calling in just asking for is it accurate what kind of I guess a report card from WallBuilders on the accuracy of the movie and specifically I think not only not only Whitfield stuff but even at the at the convention at the Constitutional Convention which by the way I love the production itself of the room and the conversations and all those things that part was really cool to watch. But in terms of accuracy was there anything that stood out to guys that, wow, they got that exactly right. Or anything that was like, man, I wish they'd done that a little different. People do want us to give an honest review on those things. 

David Barton [00:12:44] Yeah. And even before we do that, Rick, I want to throw something out from an entertainment standpoint,  whether it's plays Julius Caesar, with the play with William Shakespeare, anything else, when you base entertainment on historical things, what you're looking for is the right tone throughout. You're not going to get the exact words that they spoke back then. You're going to those words from top to bottom. You know, one of my favorite movies, World War I movie is Sergeant York. It was done, it's an Academy Award winner, multiple. And there's no way that you're going to tell me that every single line that Sergeant York said in that movie is something he said in his life, even though Sergeant York consulted on that movie, but they made sure the tone was right and the overall accuracy was right, the historical facts were right. And so, the narrative... 

Rick Green [00:13:30] The impression that people are left with right like what are they what do they walk away from it? Yeah. Yeah 

David Barton [00:13:35] It's the same thing with The Longest Day, which I think is one of the greatest D-Day movies that was done, is The Longes Day. And the guys who consulted on that movie were landing on the beach, and 20 years later they helped do the movie. But you can't say that every single line that was in there was... And it's the same with Whitfield and the same Franklin. Now, the tone's going to be exactly... It's really good. But you can’t say that every line that we said is written down in paper. 

Tim Barton [00:14:01] Yeah. And, Dad, to that point, we've talked about it. The tone is very good. I would say, just to clarify for people listening, I wouldn't say it's exactly right on every issue. But Rick, to your point of the question, one of the things that surprised me they got right was actually some of the conversation at the Constitutional Convention was verbatim language of some of the debates and the objections and the points and the counterpoints, they had some lines that were the actual lines and then they did a pretty good job representing some of the tone, the conflict. So, there's a lot of things they got right. The one thing, again, overall tone of the movie was incredible. This is the one that bothered me the most. There was more than one, but this was the big one. That I was like, man, I wish we've done a little different. It was a good contrast, but where Franklin and Whitefield are in Independence Hall late before Franklin leaves over to Europe to be the ambassador and Whitfield's gonna pass away and they're having the conversation and Franklin tells him, he says, I'm a deist and he says it very authoritatively. And I thought, oh, hang on a second, because the only time to this point, the only records of Franklin that have been discovered that has him claiming to be a deist were in his autobiography. And we've talked about it on the show before, but in that autobiography, and by the way, people can find that online where you actually, you don't have to just buy a reprint of it. You can go to like Google Books and you can read it online. You can do a keyword search for the word deist and then read the page before the word Deist and the page after the word, deist. And what you'll discover is he's explaining a story. He says, when I was 15 years old, I was reading the debates between these three pastors and this deist and as I read their debates it struck me the deist was making better arguments than the pastors were so, I determined I was gonna be a deist. And then my friends they decided they were gonna be at deist. But then I watched the way my friends begin to change and I watched the way they treated people and I thought that's not good at all. And then the way they treated me, I didn't like it. So, I thought even though that deism might be true in some of its merits, that the belief itself was really of no benefit and of no use. And so, he explains like, I left that behind. Now the reason it matters is this is when he's 15 years old. And when he explains that he found this belief of no use and no benefit, and therefore he leaves it behind. That's all in the context of when he's fifteen so like by his own explanation he's a deist for maybe a week and a half a month and a halfway we don't know the timeline but it's not very long. Now, this is not to say he was a Christian and actually, I really like, I love the line too cause, I don't love it ‘cause it was historically correct, but, where Franklin says "hey, anytime you're in the area come stay with me. And he makes his appeal to Whitfield more than once was like what do you live with me. And there was more things he said about it, too, than the movie included, because he also eludes the fact that you're one of the only people I feel like is smart enough that I can really enjoy a conversation with. And so, I would love to spend more time talking with you, like stay with me when you're in town so we can have better conversations. But when Whitfield says, I appreciate it and we will count this as, and I'm summarizing, I don't remember the exact language. I have to go look it up, but he says, we will count this, as service to Jesus. And Franklin retorts, he says, well, I'm not giving this gift to Jesus, I am giving it to you. And they include that in the movie. And I was like, man, they are getting so many lines, like, absolutely correct with the tone of what was happening. But the one thing that I did not like was the fact that Franklin professed to be a deist. And I say that not because Franklin's life was ultimately really different in a lot of ways than a deist because I think a lot of the things that he advocated for. He advocated for because of the pragmatism recognizing that Christianity if you follow the Bible if you follow the Ten Commandments if you followed the teachings of Jesus it's going to benefit you and benefit those around you. And so, I think it's fair to say that a lot of what he argued was probably very pragmatic not necessarily because he had a firm belief in Jesus. So, I think that is correct. But the reason I wasn't a big fan of that line is because it just further kind of leads into this accusation that so many of the Founding Fathers were deists, which of course they weren't. Franklin is virtually one of the only ones in the category that we could even consider in the conversation that somebody might accuse him of being a deist, even though again in his own autobiography, he recognized the failures of deism when it came to practical living and so he left it behind. But the overall things that impressed me about the movie is how many lines they got right. And then the tone was incredible. And then seeing Franklin at the end with his call to prayer. And he literally like it is the actual speech verbatim. It just, I mean, so incredible. So, I loved it. It was very compelling. It was very moving, and a little bit like for my kids when we watched the cartoon, David, we have talked about that on previous shows great soundtrack also, but some people criticized it because it left some details out and they tried to cover too much ground, et cetera. But I was like, man, it elevated someone like King David that we're actually giving kids someone to look up to, a guy that in this portrayal of the cartoon, he loved God or followed God. That's a little bit how I felt about this Whitfield/Franklin movie, The Great Awakening. Is, yeah, they definitely skipped some details and maybe they didn't get everything right, but the tone of it was so stinking good. You can't watch it and not be inspired. So even though we can nitpick it, overall, highly enjoyed it and highly recommend it. 

David Barton [00:19:57] By the way, I've got to add man when a dude lives to be in the upper 80s, there's gonna be a lot of his lines that you that doesn't make the movie It would take you 80 something years to go through his life. And so, to be able to reduce that 80 something your life to two hours I mean, I think this is one that yeah we see little things here and there overall and we correct those but to recommend it to people and to go see it again, absolutely! This is one is worth patronizing and putting our money behind and sending people to see. It'll change the way so many people see the Founding Era and the Founding Fathers and the Great Awakening and so many positive things. It's just awesome to see this kind of stuff. I've told some other folks this is kind of like a throwback to the Golden Years of Hollywood, back in the 40s and 50s when they were producing really wholesome movies there were high quality, great acting and just a lot of good stuff. And so, this is kind of a refreshing throwback to some great entertainment, which we really want. 

Rick Green [00:21:00] Agreatawakening.com is the website, by the way, folks, we had the producer on a few weeks back when it first debuted in theaters, it's still in a lot of theaters across the country and you can learn where it is at that website, agreatawakening.com. Quick break, we'll be right back. It's Foundations of Freedom Thursday. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:22:17] Welcome back to The WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us on this Thursday. Hey guys, before we go, and maybe we don't even go to another question because I was thinking, y'all were just in D.C. Here we got the speech from Franklin in this movie where he quotes, what, 11 different Bible verses in that speech, so he clearly knew the Bible. They studied the Bible, they had readings of the Bible allowed in public, and you guys just did that. We were talking about it earlier this week and last week, I think yesterday, y'all read at Museum of the Bible out of the book of Nehemiah in the America Reads the Bible. So just wanted you to tell us what it was like, how to go, was it cool? Just give us your experience. 

David Barton [00:22:57] Well, there's a lot of cool factor. But the coolest factor to me was seeing the President United States read out of Second Chronicles 7. Read those verses from, you know, 11 to 22, I think he read. To see the President read that and to know that he is the guy that says, all right, next month, May the 17th, we want to rededicate America spiritually to the Lord at the time of renewal and rededication on the National Mall. I just, this just blows me away to have a president say it's time to renew America to God. 250 years ago, is what the Founders did. And by the way, I'll read the Bible verse that: if my people which are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face, I'll hear from heaven forgive.... It's just awesome to see the national leader not just doing lip service but actually participating in something that I'm sure there's a lot of critics and I'm sure a lot of political consultants will criticize what he did. But man, kudos to his courage for standing up and doing that and not, not flinching from taking the criticism he's going to get. Whether people want to call him a hypocrite or he's being a Christian Nationalist, either way you want to go. I just appreciate what he did. And it was, it was an awesome time, bro, to see all the Bible read the way it was and, and to see people responding and 500 national leaders and cabinet secretaries and congressmen and senators and others reading the Bible out loud. It was just, it was a really remarkable time. 

Rick Green [00:24:31] Well, the most important question I can ask is Tim, did you pronounce all those names right? Or when you pronounce them wrong, was it noticeable? Like, did you have a good Texas accent as you said the name? 

Tim Barton [00:24:44] Yeah. So, so first of all, for those that remembered and prayed for us Wednesday morning, I am very grateful. Thank you for praying. No, I did not pronounce them all correctly, but I know the ones I didn't pronounce correctly. There was one place that I lost my line as I'm going through all of the children of the, children of, the children. And I, I lost my line. I looked back up and all of them names looked weird and I couldn't remember which weird name I had just read. And it was like, I don't even know where to start now. So, it was really funny and silly that I got lost and then, you know, all of these names they, they were not like John and Frank and Jimmy and you know these, these recognizable names for me. So anyway, it was overall great. Um, the idea with some of the genealogy is you just, you say it the best you can, you have messed it up, you keep going forward because nobody else in the room knows how to say it either, right? You know, just, just keep going. So it was, it was incredible. It was as, Dad, you mentioned it's such an honor to be part of something so significant it's been decades. Really that, that, since we can remember people taking time to read the Bible out loud in Washington, DC, and, and in the midst of there being a hunger for young men and different people coming back to prioritize the Bible, Bible sales are an all-time high. God is doing something and to be part of this was really fun. 

Rick Green [00:26:13] I can't think of a better way to close out Foundations of Freedom Thursday than to encourage people to get back to the Foundation, get back into God's Word, saturate your mind in God's word, read through God's Word every year, get you a Founders' Bible. Go to wallbuilders.com, get a Founders Bible, that way you get these stories we're talking about along with your reading of the Bible, and then you get the application of what you're reading in the Bible to culture and what's going on in your community and in our nation. Founders' Bible, it's available right now at wallbuilders.com. Thanks so much for listening today folks, you've been listening to the WallBuilders Show.