The Courageous Church - with Bob Pearl

Nearly 5,000 men show up in Washington State, and what we hear afterward isn’t a victory lap, it’s a sober signal that something is shifting. We talk through highlights from FreedomCon at the Gorge and why it feels less like a passing revival moment and more like an awakening that pushes outward into families, churches, and communities.

Then Dr. Bob Pearl from Birchman Baptist joins us to unpack his book Courageous Church: Standing Boldly for Truth in a Cowardly World. We get practical about what “courage” looks like when the pressure is real, when the culture calls everything “politics,” and when pastors feel the temptation to stay quiet. Bob argues that abortion, marriage, and gender aren’t partisan talking points, they’re biblical issues tied to what we believe about God, humanity, and truth. We also dig into why courage is contagious, why community matters, and why you cannot sharpen iron with a marshmallow.

We close by connecting the spiritual to the civic, including Bob’s appointment to the Texas Commission on Marriage and Family and what it means to bring convictions into the public square without surrendering the church’s mission. If you’ve been discouraged by headlines, this conversation is a reminder to look for what God is doing on the ground and to stand where you’re planted.

Subscribe for more conversations at the intersection of faith and culture, share this with a pastor or friend who needs encouragement, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to the intersection of faith and culture. It's the WallBuilders Show taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical and constitutional perspective. Thanks for joining us on this Monday, a wonderful weekend for everybody. Lots of activity, lots of 250th events. We got Dr. Bob Pearl is going to be with us on the program today from Birchman Baptist in the Fort Worth area, where all three of us on the radio program have spoken there. And a lot of our friends as well. Just a great church going to talk about the courageous church, but let's talk about a specific courageous church. Washington State, we're going to have good news on a Monday from Washington State because David and Tim got to go to the Gorge and be a part of this incredible Rise of the Statesman Event. Guys, I can't wait to hear about this. 

Tim Barton [00:00:50] Well, and I'll clarify that my dad did not get to make it because American Airlines did not think that was where they should direct and route planes. And so, so he did not, and he was, I mean, granted, you know, Dad, I think you were only gonna be able to be there for a couple hours on Friday anyway because you spoke Thursday night in Arkansas, you were supposed to speak Saturday morning, or I guess Saturday, yeah, but morning I guess is right, in Arizona. So, we had a worked out flight that we thought we could get him up there for a little bit so we could at least come encourage Pastor Josh McPherson and some of our friends that were up there. Eric Metaxas was up there, Nate Schatzlein, a good buddy, and then Pastor Mark Driscoll and Russell Johnson, and lots of other men and leaders that were out there anyway. Dad, how many hours did y'all get delayed in coming out of Arkansas? Was it like six hours you were delayed, I think? 

David Barton [00:01:48] Yeah, pretty close to that. It was pretty close, the six hours coming out of Arkansas and they kept redoing stuff. And so instead of getting into Phoenix at a decent hour, we got in at, I don't know, is there an indecent hour? Our schedule seems to take 24 hours a day anyway. So, it was a much later than what we anticipated, but the event was really good. The events were good. And so I'm getting ready now to make an international flight going from Dallas/Fort Worth down to Houston. So I have to go through all the customs and do all the stuff you do with international flights. That's facetious, of course, because Houston is like its own country. 

Rick Green [00:02:21] I thought you meant Arkansas was another country and you were flying in from Arkansas, so you had to go through customs. 

David Barton [00:02:28] Yeah, well that, that too, there are different customs between Texas and Arkansas for sure, but definitely different customs, between Houston and anywhere else in the world. 

Tim Barton [00:02:38] Well, guys, I do wanna back up and brag on the event. It was Freedom Conference, Freedom Con up at the Gorge in George, Washington. Our friend, Pastor Josh McPherson led that and it was absolutely incredible. This was a large men's conference on the western coast, I think since 2003, I think it's the right number. They had just under 5,000 men that were gathered and guys, we've talked a lot about the fact that we don't think we're just in a revival. We think there's an awakening and this conference just further reiterating in my mind that confirming that idea that what we are seeing around us is not just people having a general interest in God or God reaching people on a general level. There is something much deeper where people are actually applying the word of God and which we kind of differentiate a revival as often inward. And a awakening is often outward. So the awakening is just the next step of revival that you take what God has done inside of you and it spreads out of you so you go engage culture with the truth of the word of God. And that is absolutely what these men were encouraged to do and guys it was a pretty unique collaboration. There was a lot of jokes surrounding it because you have like some very reformed to very Pentecostal camps that came together but it was all working to seek God's intervention and God's move, primarily in Washington State, but then things that would flow from it. And for Pastor Josh McPherson, to be able to pull this off, that the last time there was a group this large up in Washington state was Promise Keepers, and that was 20-something years ago. And the thing that I told Pastor Josh, I wanted to be an encouragement to him, is, you know, I think he could have done something 20- something years ago, where you had an established name and brand like Promise Keepers, there wasn't the anti-Christian hostility to the extent there is today. There wasn't anti-Christian bias to the extent there is there today. And then they had more than 61 days to be able to advertise, promote, and get people to sign up at Govind's conference. And so what he was able to do, the very first conference they've ever done like this, where he had very little time to promote it, and an era where he trying to round the mien of Washington to come and connect with God and take their faith and go and engage with the culture. And he got nearly 5,000 men to show up in George, Washington at the Gorge, this incredible, beautiful outdoor venue and amphitheater. It was really, really impressive, guys. I not only went to teach, but there were definitely some things and moments when I felt God impressing things on me and encouraging me. And it was, it was such a blessing for me to be there and be around those men. And then yesterday I spoke, did his services at his church and talked about the role of pastors in the revolution, but also giving some context that what happened in the Great Awakening caused the movement. And then there were pastors in revolution that carried that movement to fruition, helps us become a nation, et cetera, et cetera. And I told this to his church, I think it's true, that I think he is one of It's faster right now that is one of those Black Robe Regiment Pastors. And guys, I'm encouraged, because I am seeing more and more pastors. It seems like God is raising up to be those Black Robe Regiment Pastors, and we mentioned our friend Pastor Bob Pearl. We've all spoken at his church. He's been one of these guys very faithfully and courageously, boldly teaching the word of God and faith for a lot of years and decades, but it seems like now God is rising up a lot new people to surround some of those faithful men you have been there. And there is a new hunger, desire, passion, stirring happening. And I wanna say this for anybody listening, if you are in a state and you're thinking, man, I don't know if God's really doing a lot in my state. I want to encourage you that in Washington state, they are seeing the undercurrent of a revival and a great awakening happening. God is moving all over this nation. And so, I wanna encourage you, even if you don't maybe feel it, where you are. Guys the benefit we have in travel so much we see so much what's happening around the country and so we're not inundated and overwhelmed with What the media we see on social media or mainstream whatever it is because we see all the ground What's happening and God actually moving and I want to encourage everybody wherever you are God is on the loom even though it might not feel like it in the moment 

Rick Green [00:07:23] Yeah. And Washington States, one of the worst had been one of the worst ones. So, to have that revival there is really, really, really encouraging. And I know I should ask a spiritual question to him, but my burning question is with Chad Robichaux, Nick Freitas and John Lovell there, did any of them tackle you and take you to the ground? Because I'm assuming that had to have happened at some point. 

Tim Barton [00:07:42] So, no, they actually, I had a, all of us, we had a security detail assigned to us because the nature of Washington State, where not everybody gets to carry guns, and actually in the Gorge Amphitheater, they wouldn't even let off-duty police officers have guns, et cetera. It was a whole deal. It was so communistic, Marxist, in the way I felt about it. But they assigned me somebody. It was foreign special ops who had, I won't say the country, because I don't want to give away all his details, but he was the Queen's Royal Guard and he was assigned to me. And so, I honestly said, I wish one of the guys would try to come mess with me just so I could be like, hey, I need your help. And I want to see, I want see you deal with them. It did not happen. 

Rick Green [00:08:37] That'd been great. 

Tim Barton [00:08:38] But I really yes, it would have been so fascinating. Yes, I told him I said honestly, I kind of want to go pick a fight with somebody just to see what you would do to them. But it felt like you're hanging out with like a Chuck Norris kind of person right and you're like I just wanna see Chuck Norris roundhouse kick somebody in the head. That's all I wanna see right now. That's how it felt with this guy. But no, unfortunately I did not get to grapple. I was not taken down. My security detail did not have to intervene. But it was super fun getting to connect with some of the guys up there. 

Rick Green [00:09:09] Well, we're glad you're back safe, Tim, and that you had that kind of protection from your friends, which it's fun to watch you guys grapple on the ground, but didn't get to do it this time. Anyway, quick break. We'll be right back. Dr. Bob Pearl's gonna join us when we return your listing to The WallBuilders Show.

Rick Green [00:10:32] Welcome back to The WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. We got Bob Pearl with us, Doctor. You know, you're like John Witherspoon. You have to call Witherspoon the Reverend Dr. John Witherspoon. So I'm gonna call you the Reverend Doctor Bob Pearl, Birchman Baptist. It's good to see you, brother. Thanks for coming on. 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:10:47] Good to see ya. Thank you for having me. 

Rick Green [00:10:49] Well, I'm excited about your book, Courageous Church. We are, you know, of course, at WallBuilders constantly working with pastors that are courageous, but also trying to get more of them to be courageous. And you're teaching them how to do that in this book. So thank you for doing the book. Thank you for being a pastor that does this. I could feel it in your church. You know, you just have a, you have a congregation that is salt and light. They're not sitting around being sugary and dull. They're salt and light. So you could write the book because you're doing it at your church 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:11:16] Well, it's important for us to understand that we have a responsibility here in America. We have been given many, many blessings and freedoms from God, and we have the responsibility to follow in the steps of our forefathers, not just in our country, but even as a Baptist following in the step of our Baptist forefathers who were courageous, that gave their lives for certain truths of scripture. And so that's the same thing that we see in the founding of our country, how they gave their lives and then those who serve our country how they have given their lives for the freedoms that we enjoy. 

Rick Green [00:11:59] Well, and you give that history in the book, you go back to the early church, the Reformation, Courage on American Soul, you walk through all that so that we can know we stand on good solid ground. The only problem I have with the book—I love the fact that Jack Hibb's did the forward, but you've got this guy named Tim Barton that did a recommendation in the book. I don't know if we can be—I'm kidding, he's, he's.... 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:12:19] Yeah, he's a great guy. You know, he...

Rick Green [00:12:23]  Tony Perkins, Ryan, from Liberty, Ryan Helfelbaum, Eric Metaxas, you got a lot of great folks in here. 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:12:29] Yeah, and all these guys too have been at our church and our church, I want to make sure that our people are exposed to these kinds of voices in our culture that are willing to stand and to remind us of the blessing and responsibility we have. 

Rick Green [00:12:48] I don't think this is just for pastors, though. This is for all of us. We need to know when our pastor speaks on this that they're standing on solid ground as well. So it's a great gift to a pastor, I would say. I would encourage people to give it to their pastor to encourage them to be courageous, but we in the church need to this stuff, too. 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:13:04] Right. This was not written simply to pastors. This was written for everyone, particularly people in the pew and more particularly for those who claim to be believers, because it very clearly shows our biblical responsibility. And this was written to be an easy read. It's not an academic book. It just was written, as God put it on my heart, to encourage people to stand. You know, courage actually can be contagious. 

Rick Green [00:13:38] They can, yeah. 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:13:39] Just like fear can be contagious. And so when people who want to speak up, they feel like, oh, I can't or something, when someone next to them speaks up, it gives them courage. And this is what I'm trying to do. 

Rick Green [00:13:53] I love it.  

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:13:54] Is raise up courageous people. And I talk about the church because I, as a pastor, believe that the social pathologies that we have in our country are because pastors have abrogated their biblical responsibility in preaching the truth and standing for truth, and they have swallowed that lie that you're not supposed to talk about politics and all that. Well, it's not politics. These are biblical issues. Abortion is not a political issue. It's a biblical issue. Transgender is a biblical issues, marriage is a Biblical issue, and it's no that the church is getting... In the path of the state, it's that the state is encroaching upon the responsibility of the church. And just because people in the quote state say it, you've got pastors that are afraid to stand. And you know, people in a church, if they'll get this and read it, they can give a copy to their pastors and say, pastor, I believe that that you could help us in this and call our people to stand. 

Rick Green [00:15:04] Yeah, and say, pastor, I believe you're courageous. I want to give this to you as a tool to help with that courage. You said that most of our societal, or really every one of our societal ills is a result of the church abrogating the responsibility. It's almost instead of being salt, because the salt wasn't there, the meat is spoiling. You look out there in the culture, you see all these problems, but they do. They stem from the church not being there to preserve the culture. 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:15:28] Well, Jesus also said we're to the light of the world. You ought to put a basket over the light and that's what's happened, I think. Too many churches have a basket over them and they're not letting their light shine over the world because light exposes, just like salt helps enhance flavor, light exposes darkness. And so, we've all been around when you're in the yard or something and there's a brick. That's been in the grass for a long time and the sun is shining and you move the brick, you notice all of the critters underneath there run to the darkness. Well, that's what light does. It exposes the evils and all in our society and why it is important for believers and pastors in particular to stand and declare that light. 

Rick Green [00:16:22] I saw on Amazon; you have both a Kindle version and a printed version. Do you want people to go to Amazon, to your website? Where's the best place to go get it? 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:16:31] Probably it's just easier to go to Amazon that's faster and everything most people have accounts with Amazon and... 

Rick Green [00:16:39] Yeah, easy to do. You've got a chapter in here about standing together, courage, and community, finding other people that will also stand, or even being the one to start that, like you're saying, and it'd be courageous. A friend of mine is a pastor in Vegas, of all places. He said something to me a few weeks ago that has stuck with me. He says, you know, iron sharpening iron is so important, but you can't sharpen iron with a marshmallow. 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:17:02] That's right. 

Rick Green [00:17:03] That's what I thought of when I read that chapter in your book. I'm like, you've got to get around some other iron. You've got be iron yourself. 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:17:09] Well, that's right. And that's the thing. As people see leaders and their pastors and others in community standing, it encourages them to stand. And because it paves the way for them. And so, it says, hey, I can do that. Because most people know what's right to do. They just need encouragement to do it.

Rick Green [00:17:36] And know they're not alone 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:17:37] That's right. 

Rick Green [00:17:38] And the church really was the epicenter of the community in021. 

[00:17:41] The founding of this country. It was the place where everything emanated from that, and we sort of seeded that ground. Do you sense that there's some waking up and an effort to reinsert ourselves into the culture as we should have? 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:17:54] Yes. Yes. In the founding of our country, you know, what they did, the first thing that they did was build a church. And the community was built around that. And what happens then, they came there for worship, but then when they had their meetings of the community, what we would call government meetings or organizational meetings of a community, any community problem, where did they meet? In the church. It was all in the church, the church was the center of the Community. And that's the way it should be. Now today, we have lost that emphasis. And so this is the one thing that I'm pushing to try to get people to realize that we need to put the priority back into our biblical responsibility in the church. The church is the only institution that God has given a promise of perpetuity. Governments are going to be gone. The church is going to always be here. Parachurch organizations, as good as they are, they're going to be gone. They come and go. The Lord's Church, the gates of hell, will never prevail against it. 

Rick Green [00:19:14] Before I let you go tell us a little bit about your new gig. The Governor has appointed you to a commission you're a part of now 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:19:19] Yes, I've been very privileged. The Governor has appointed me to this Texas Commission on Marriage and Family. And that goes because of some of my involvement there when, when the Supreme Court redefined the definition of marriage that now it's not just between one man and one woman, and they usurped their responsibility because that's the church's responsibility. I said then I no longer recognize the government's involvement or understanding of marriage. And so I had submitted through my representatives some marriage proposals, and because of that, other people had done some things, and so the legislature... 

Rick Green [00:20:12] Wait, wait, not a proposal of marriage to someone. A submitted marriage proposals to some state legislators, obviously some ideas, some proposals, some ways we can turn this around. 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:20:25] Yes, some ideas, yes. 

Rick Green [00:20:27] Some ways we can turn this around. Yeah. 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:20:28] Trying to put marriage back into the centrality of the church, getting it out of government hands and going back to where it was before the government got involved in it. And so, as a result, there were other introductions to bills and so forth relative to marriage and family and so for. So, the legislature passed this, this law, establishing this commission. And so, the Governor appoints three, the lieutenant governor appoints two, and the speaker appoints two, and I was fortunate enough to be appointed by the... 

Rick Green [00:21:08] And so you guys will spend the next year researching, getting together, working on these proposals that potentially could become legislation. 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:21:15] Yes, we are to look to make recommendations to the next legislative session on the issues with marriage and family. 

Rick Green [00:21:24] I wish we did more of this, having pastors involved in that process. Of course, we've got a handful of pastors in Congress and state legislatures, but man, I love the fact that you're doing that. That's a fantastic. It says a lot about our legislature creating that commission, your willingness to go down there and be involved for years. You've done this for decades. You've literally been in this arena helping to be salt and light and not saying to yourself, oh, well, I'm only going to worry about my church and my family. You've actually paid attention to the community as well by getting involved in what's going on with the state. So thank you. 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:21:54] Thank you. I just see that as my responsibility as a pastor. 

Rick Green [00:21:58] Yeah, amen. I hope other pastors will do the same. The Courageous Church, Standing Boldly for Truth in a Cowardly World, forward by Jack Hibbs, Bob Pearl. Go get it at Amazon.com. I know David and Tim send their best. They love you, and we appreciate you coming on the program. 

Dr. Bob Pearl [00:22:13] Thank you. I appreciate this opportunity. 

Rick Green [00:22:15] Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back with David and Tim Barton. 

Rick Green [00:23:25] Welcome back to The WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us. Thanks to Dr. Bob Pearl for joining us here on The WallBuilders Show back with David and Tim. And man, you said it at the beginning of the program, Tim, just guys like Dr. Pearl that have been out there in the trenches for decades, tilling the ground, sowing the seeds, and now to see the kind of fruit and the pastors like Josh and others that you talked about. It's an exciting time to see what's happening in the church all over the country, as you said, not just red areas. 

David Barton [00:23:51] Yeah, and notice too, that what Bob was covering was the same thing Tim was talking about earlier, the difference between a revival and an awakening, because so much of what Bob is covering was, hey, apply this stuff to the community, apply this to the culture, apply this outside the church, stop doing this stuff only inside the church. And he has been in the middle of that battle. I mean, in his particular denomination, he has be holding them to the line for a number of years. Particularly back under COVID days, and then even since then, as they've tried to be more woke and as they say, be more open to other beliefs and thoughts, he said, nope, you stay right where the Bible is. And he has been unrelenting in that. And now it's interesting, and I think it's happening fairly rapidly, we're seeing more and more turned back in that biblical direction. And even what his denomination is recommending three or four years ago is now kind of frowned on by most people in that denomination, although it was really well accepted. And as Tim was talking earlier, I was thinking back in the first part of the program that we had a tradition and and home when I was growing up. And I was I was a little guy. I mean what when I. Was playing high school basketball. I was at four foot seven. Okay. I weighed 82 pounds. And so I'm a point guard. I am really, really, really tiny. The first day I had in high school, the center came by. He didn't know who I was, but he just picked me up and set his own shoulder, like with one hand. And I rode to class the first day up on his shoulder. So, I was just a tiny, tiny, tiny guy in school. And so for me, growing up was a big deal. I wanted to grow at some point. And so what would happen is Dad, he would get put me against the door frame and one of the doors, and he would put a frame of square on top of my head and a pencil. And he would mark on the door how tall I was at that point, and he'd put a date beside it. And so maybe three months later, I'd grown half an inch, and maybe two years later I'd grow an inch and a half. It was always being able to measure and see. And so, when you're in the house, I didn't feel like I was growing ever, but every once in a while I got this measurement where it says, oh, I have grown some. That's cool. And I kind of think that's what it is with the church right now. We go there every day or every week or we're doing this all the time. And we really, we're so close we don't see the growth, but I think there are some milestones along the way that show us that America really is getting into a great awakening. And I think that's a great place to be, whether it's what Bob Perle is doing in his denomination or what Tim experienced this weekend in Washington State or what we see as we travel. I think it's a good time for America. 

Rick Green [00:26:25] Yeah, very exciting to see. It's all over the country. I think what Tim said earlier is so important. No matter where you are, don't be discouraged. Wherever God's planted you, you fight where you are, you stand for truth, you give of your life, fortune, sacred honor throughout this 250th. And let's watch that revival happen in all 50 states. Thanks for listening to the WallBuilders Show.