Building on the American Heritage Series - Preserving America's Heritage

The phrase “Christian nation” gets thrown around like a slogan, but we wanted to slow down and ask a more precise question: what did American courts, lawmakers, and leaders historically mean when they used it? We start with the definition that shows up again and again in public records, that America is called a Christian nation because Christianity has “shaped and molded” its institutions, not because the country forces anyone to become Christian.

From there, we dig into the 1892 US Supreme Court Holy Trinity case, why it mattered, and how the Court framed the relationship between law, history, and national character. We also draw a bright line between Christian influence and theocracy, pointing to early American practices like elections, written constitutions, and bills of rights as evidence of a system designed to limit power, protect conscience, and keep leaders accountable.

We then connect the dots to practical outcomes people recognize today: Good Samaritan laws, the Golden Rule in civic life, America’s pattern of benevolence in disaster relief, and the argument that free markets require moral guardrails like honesty and covenant keeping. Finally, we answer listener questions about faith and politics, including “render to Caesar and to God,” why political protection matters for religious speech, whether God chooses leaders without our involvement, and what “submit to authority” means in a nation built on self-government.

If this helped you think more clearly about American heritage, religious liberty, and civic duty, subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find the conversation.

Transcript

Rick Green [00:00:07] You found your way to the intersection of faith and politics. WallBuilders Live with David Barton and Rick Green, also found online at wallbuilderslive.com and wallbuilders.com and also on Facebook. You can follow us there as well and comment on the shows as you get a chance to listen to them. Here we go to Building on the American Heritage Series with David Barton. All right, David, this is the American Heritage Series. So let's just cut right to the chase. One of the most important questions about America's heritage. Are we or are we not a Christian nation? 

David Barton [00:00:35] That's one of the things really debated today. The problem we have is we no longer use the definition we historically had. Historically, the definition as given by Supreme Court justices is that America is a Christian nation because Christianity has so largely shaped and molded it. Now take that definition. We've forgotten that definition or we don't know it, but yet we had 300 court cases that say America is a Christian nation. We have president after president say America is Christian nation. We have hundreds of acts of congresses, state and federal, say we're a Christian nation, but in the last few years on the New York Times bestseller list, you have Hitchens and you have Sam Harris and these guys, oh no, America's not a Christian Nation. You get President Obama shortly after his election, goes over to Turkey and says, oh no, no, American's not Christian Nation, and then he's six weeks later in Egypt, he says, but we are one of the largest Muslim nations in the world. Then Karl Rove comes out after Obama and says oh no we're not a Christian nation. So, we've got all this clamor saying we're now a Christian nation. And the problem is we've let them define it in something it never was. 

Rick Green [00:01:32] How did they define it again, the ones that said we are a Christian nation? 

David Barton [00:01:34] They said America is a Christian Nation because Christianity has so largely shaped and molded it. 

Rick Green [00:01:40] So it's influenced who we are. 

David Barton [00:01:41] If you go back to the U.S. Supreme Court case that was done in 1892, the Supreme Court in that decision, 16 pages long, half the decision was just showing the precedence because the question was, you can't import foreign labor into America to work in America. And so the Church of the Holy Trinity in New York City brought in a pastor from Scotland. And the U.S. Prosecutor there in New York, U. S. Attorney said, ah, you violated the immigration law, you're in trouble. And so, he went after the church for having brought in a pastor from Scotland to pastor the church. Well, the first thing the court did was said, no, wait a minute. You don't judge the laws by the letter of the law, you judge them by the spirit of law. And they went back and looked at the law. And the law was very clearly based at targeting the Chinese immigration problem was there where Chinese were being brought by the railroads as slave labor. It was a new type of slavery. After black slavery, you had Chinese slavery. And the railroads were building all the rail roads with Chinese slave labor, essentially. And so, Congress passed that anti-immigration law to stop the Chinese slave trade. 

Rick Green [00:02:39] It wasn't to keep you from bringing in a pastor from another country. 

David Barton [00:02:42] The court said, it's real clear, they weren't trying to stop pastors, they're trying to the Chinese slave problem. And they said, by the way, even if the law had been targeted at churches, it's an unconstitutional law because this is a Christian nation. And so the court went through and gave 87 historical examples proving that America was a Christian nation. And they said, there's no way you can pass a law in this country that will keep a church from bringing in the pastor of their choice, even if it's overseas. Now, what definition does they use? That was such an important question that the justice on the court who wrote that decision, and by the way, it was a unanimous decision.

Rick Green [00:03:15] Well, I was about to ask you, is this an obscure court of one judge way off the country, or is this the Supreme Court? 

[00:03:21] It's the Supreme court of the United States. 

Rick Green [00:03:23] This is a Supreme Court decision saying we're a Christian nation. 

David Barton [00:03:23] In a unanimous decision without any dissent by any justice on the court, he said, of course America is a Christian nation. And so when people said, what do you mean? This justice wrote a book. The justice wrote the opinion, wrote a book on it and said, America is justly called a Christian Nation because Christianity has so largely shaped and molded it. Now there's the definition of a Christian nation. He said, we're a Christian nation, but we don't require everybody to be Christians. He said we've got a lot of atheists among us. 

Rick Green [00:03:51] So it's not a theocracy, it's a situation where you have to be a Christian, it is saying that it is a nation influenced by Christianity, greatly influenced. 

David Barton [00:03:58] Let's take theocracy, because theocracies existed all over Europe. Guess what? When preachers came to America and brought the Word of God with them, Christian preachers came to American. You have, for example, you got all these Christians that came on the Mayflower. They busted theocracy wide open. They didn't even get off the ship until they wrote a document. The Mayflower Compact says, we're not doing the king thing. We're choosing our leaders, and we're having elections every single year. We'll have a high turnover of leaders. We the people choose our leaders. You get Reverend Roger Williams who founds Rhode Island in 1636. And the Reverend Roger says, we're not doing this King thing, we're choosing our own leaders. That's not a theocracy when you get to choose your own leaders, four preachers in Connecticut wrote the first Constitution in Connecticut in 1638. And they said, not only were we choosing our own leaders we're also having a Bill of Rights to limit government so the government can invade your personal rights. That busted theocracy all to heck. So you look at all these religious guys who came in. Reverend William Penn, when he did the Constitution, did the form of government for Pennsylvania in 1681, 1682, and he also did Jersey, he also did Delaware, three colonies. Same thing, we're going to have elections. So the first thing is Christianity gives you a Republican form of Government, where you choose your own leaders. See, you go back to Europe, they're still all with parliamentary systems and monarchies and they don't have Republican forms of government. We have the unique system that came from the Bible. That's one proof we're a Christian nation, is the Bible, Christianity, changed the way we run government. We now have bills of rights. We have written constitutions because that's the way the Word of God is. God gave a written law to His people on the mountain. Gave it to Moses to take it down to the people. Written law, that's that way God did it. Theocracy does not have a written- 

Rick Green [00:05:43] So that's why it's also, this matters. I mean, some people would say, why does it matter if you're a Christian nation? 

David Barton [00:05:47] Well, let me give you some other examples. Because it matters so much that President Teddy Roosevelt said that Christianity is so entwined with our civic and our social life that we wouldn't even recognize the country if we took it out. So, if we're not a Christian nation, then get rid of a Republican form of government. But you know what else? We wouldn't be a benevolent nation. We help countries all over the world when disaster hits. Now, why do we do that? Strange thing. All 50 of our states have a little thing called the Good Samaritan law. Good Samaritan. Oh, that's a Christian teaching, isn't it? It's Jesus who taught the Good Samaritan teaching, and so we enshrined that in law. We take the Golden Rule. That's part of what we teach in law, is you want to treat others, well, that's all Christian stuff. What kind of a nation would we be if we didn't teach in the civic arena the Golden Rule and the Good Samaritan? We wouldn't be the same nation at all. 

Rick Green [00:06:36] I can't help but think when these nations that have tragedies call upon the US, sometimes they don't even have to call upon us, we're just there. But if we weren't a Christian nation, we wouldn't be there. We wouldn't be willing to sacrifice.

David Barton [00:06:47] Indonesia was, it's a Muslim nation. Indonesia, largest Muslim nation in the world. It got whacked by a tsunami. Other Muslim nations didn't come helping them. It was a Christian nation. It was America especially that stepped in. First thing on the scene. In Japan, where there's an earthquake in Mexico, where there was an earthquake in Russia back in the Cold War days, whether it is fires in Mexico. Whatever it is, we're the first ones to, that's our benevolence. We have instilled that Christian value throughout our society. Even non-Christians practiced the Good Samaritan and the Golden Rule. 

Rick Green [00:07:15] And then we turn around and treat other nations and people within our own nation with that Christian benevolence. Whether or not they're Christians.  

David Barton [00:07:22] Whether or not...And whether or not we're Christians, even people are benevolent and give to charitable things, even if they're not Christian. Now, try finding that in a secular nation. Try finding that in a Muslim nation or in Hindu or something. It doesn't happen. 

Rick Green [00:07:32] So this is an important question to answer. 

David Barton [00:07:34] It is. Now see, another one that goes with it is when you look at history, our free-market system came out of the Bible. The original people who implemented it way back in the 1620s, they pointed to two verses right off the bat, 1 Timothy 5:8, and 2 Thessalonians 3:10. On top of that, subsequent folks who developed the free enterprise system said, well, the basis of this is found in Luke 19 and Matthew 20. Matthew 25

Rick Green [00:07:56] You just blew a lot of paradigms right there because money and economics from the Bible? Really? We always separate those two. We think there's nothing in the Bible about that. 

David Barton [00:08:04] That's why Benjamin Franklin, least religious founding father, said the free market is the means under God of establishing the freedom of our country, entire and handing down complete to posterity. And Ben Franklin says, hey, this is the means God has given. Now why would he say that? Because we knew our history. We knew that if it hadn't been for Christian leaders and Christian, you know, Adam Smith did The Wealth of Nations. He's the guy that people point to for the free-market system. The book he did just before The Wealth of Nations was on Christian morality, how you have to have Christian morality. Now, having said that, let's talk about the economic system. Well, if you take that first book away, and you get Bernie Madoff, all these guys that are crooks, you have to have the Christian basis for it. You know, if I go get my car changed at a oil place, I don't pull out, undo the plug, and say if they actually put new oil in there. I expect that they put new oil in there, because that's part of the Christian ethic that you have have. Even if you're not a Christian, you still have that Christian ethic of integrity, of doing the right thing, and that's based on Christian teachings and morality. 

Rick Green [00:09:00] Even that concept of contracting with that person of change or all that whole idea of covenants. Again, right from the Bible, that Christian ethics ... 

David Barton [00:09:05] And you know, if we're not a Christian nation, we wouldn't have an education system to speak of. The first public school law ever passed in America was called the Old Deluder Satan Law. 1647 was passed so that people be able to read, so they could read the scriptures, so they can keep their government under control. A Christian nation. You get a good education system under a Christian Nation. You get good form of government. You get an economic system. You get benevolence throughout it. There's so many things we can point to. And that's what historians and courts and everybody else said, of course we're a Christian nation! Christianity's was shaped and molded this nation. And by the way, that's why it's not discriminatory. That's why if you look at religious Jews, they say we love living in a Christian nation because we get to have prosperity and practice our faith. A Christian nation is not coercive. We didn't put you to death for what you believed. Now, the reason was there's 30 verses in the New Testament that say to protect the rights of conscience. You have, in 1 Corinthians 8, we're told if you offend the conscience of a weaker brother, you've sinned against Christ. So as soon as these groups got here, they put in their laws that you cannot offend the rights of conscience. You have to, even if I disagree with you. So, to this day, we believe in a strong military, but you know what? We tell the Quakers, hey, if you don't believe military service is right, we won't force you to serve. It's against your religious conscience. 

Rick Green [00:10:18] Well, then that cuts right to the heart of the question. If we're a Christian nation, that doesn't mean we're going to force you to believe in Christian values. 

David Barton [00:10:24] We've got all these laws on dress codes in business, and yet if you're Jewish or Muslim, and by your faith you believe you should have a beard, it doesn't matter if your business says you gotta be clean shaven, you can keep that beard because that's a religious right. We require 12 years of education, but if you're Amish you say wait a minute our faith requires only eight years of it, that's fine, you can have eight years because you're conscious. You find that in any other nation in the world. That's why other religions love coming here. 

Rick Green [00:10:48] So remind me again that what it's not, we are not going to say... 

David Barton [00:10:51] It is not a theocracy, it is not coercive, it offers all sorts of free market choices in religion, in conscience, and in economics. It does provide stability because you have a common values system. So, what we do is we provide a stable nation where the people can come and prosper, they can prosper in their faith. That's what a Christian nation is, it protects that right of conscience. 

Rick Green [00:11:14] David, we've got some viewers from across the nation who have sent in questions for us. Let's find out what they're asking about the importance of our heritage. 

David Barton [00:11:20] Sounds good. 

Questioner 1 [00:11:21] Why should I as a Christian be involved in government when my main focus under the Great Commission is to share the gospel? 

Rick Green [00:11:27] Well good question, as a Christian I'm supposed to be focused on sharing the gospel, why should I be focused at all on government? 

David Barton [00:11:35] This is really a false view of scriptures that's occurred in the last 40 to 50 years and it's, well you can either do government or you can either share the gospel and a lot of people take that back to Matthew 22:21 where Jesus says you render to Caesar with Caesar's, you render to God with God's. Therefore, you're gonna do the Caesar thing or you're gonna do to God thing. Now we treat that verse like the conjunction Jesus used with the word or. 

Rick Green [00:11:56] So you have to choose between the two. 

David Barton [00:11:57] Render to Caesar with Caesars or render to God. That's not what Jesus said. He said, you rendered to Caesar what Caesar's and. You rendered God what's God's. 

Rick Green [00:12:04] We're to do both. 

David Barton [00:12:05] That's right, it's not an either-or kind of a thing. We're supposed to have a civil duty and we're supposed have a spiritual duty. And there's another aspect that goes with that as well is the Great Commission didn't say go evangelize the world, it said Jesus said you go teach them everything I have taught you. The Great Commission is about discipleship. Now if we just take that, if we take what Jesus said in Matthew 28:18-20, the Great Commission, you go and teach them everything I've taught you, In Matthew 19, Jesus had an entire teaching on no-fault divorce and on marriage. In Matthew 20, Jesus has an entire teaching on the minimum wage, on the viability of the contract between employers and employees. 

Rick Green [00:12:43] Now, wait House, aren't you getting into politics? 

David Barton [00:12:45] Exactly. 

Rick Green [ 12:46] That's what we're told, those issues. In Matthew 25, Jesus has an attire teaching of the capital gains tax and on business practices. Now, well, what makes us think that preaching the gospel is just about salvation? Jesus said, everything I taught, you go preach it. 

David Barton [00:14:07] If I'm going to do what Jesus said, it's not a matter of, oh, I've got to preach the gospel or I got to get involved in government. Hey, both of them are there. We have great examples in the New Testament as well. The Apostle Paul, great evangelist, did all the missionary journeys he did. And yet, you remember the time they were just about to beat him and he looked over his back at the centurion and said, are you sure you can beat a Roman citizen? The centurion says, oh my gosh, you're a Roman citizen? I paid a lot for my citizenship. Paul said, not me, I'm a native born citizen. And they go, oh, everybody back away. Don't touch the guy, he's a Roman citizen. Now, how come Paul the Apostle didn't start quoting scripture right then and sharing the gospel? How come he invoked the Constitution of Rome and used constitutional basis of what he did? Paul did it on other occasions as well. When he was with Felix and Agrippa and Festus, he invokes the Roman Constitution. There's times when he did the civil aspect. There's time when he did the spiritual aspect as an apostle. He was well-versed in his country and in his God.  

Rick Green [00:15:00] So it's not just that the pastor teaches from, you know, does both, that everything from the scripture, we're going to teach everything from scripture applied to the culture, but then me, when I'm sitting in the pew, I need to listen to that and then go out and live it. 

David Barton [00:15:11] That's right. 

Rick Green [00:15:11] So I don't stay away from politics and only share the gospel. 

David Barton [00:15:16] There's another fallacy with this thing of sharing the gospel, you know, just go evangelize the world. You know, it is a scripture that gives us the right to share the gospel. There's no question about that. Okay, so why don't you take your God-given right to share the Gospel and go to Saudi Arabia and climb up on the street corner and see what happens. 

Rick Green [00:15:31] Very different. 

David Barton [00:15:32] Very different, as a matter of fact, a guy did that not long ago. He was instantly put in jail because it violates the blasphemy laws over there. If you do anything other than Islam, it's a violation of the law. We've already had recently in Pakistan people put to death. For sharing Christ. We had in Afghanistan people jailed for sharing Christ, all over the world this happens. Well, they're just exercising their God-given right. Yeah, but the difference is, it's not a politically protected right. See, if you don't wanna have to live like they do in China with an underground church, you better keep control of your government so that you do not get punished for doing what God tells you can do. And the only way you do that is you have to get government that's friendly. You have to give government leaders that are friendly toward these expressions of faith. You and I have talked to a pastor recently from Wichita, Kansas, who was thrown in jail for giving out the Gospel of John. I mean, here in America. We've got the elderly gentleman down in Georgia who was throwing in jail for two days because he had the audacity to share his faith with someone in a city park. We have the two Gideons down in Florida who spent two days in jail because they had the audacity to stand on a public sidewalk and give someone a New Testament. 

Rick Green [00:16:35] In America. 

David Barton [00:16:35] In America, we've got a youth pastor that spent two day in jail. He was walking through a mall with two other people. A guard heard him use the word God with the other people, tackled him, handcuffed him, hauled him off to jail. You can't use the world God in a mall. This is America we're talking about. The only way that happens is if we don't get involved in putting the right people in government, otherwise we're not only having to fight Satan with what we do, we've given the government over so that he can use that to persecute us for sharing our own faith. 

Rick Green [00:17:01] In America, aren't we Caesar? Not only did he not say, Jesus didn't say stay away from government, he said you go do your part, whatever your role is. And here in America, our role is very different than what it was in that era. 

David Barton [00:17:13] God has given us a self-governing nation. We believe out of 1 Timothy, we believe out 1 Peter. We believe out of Romans that God ordains government. Because God's the one who said that. Because we're all the way back to Genesis. So, if God's ordaining government, what kind of government has He ordained for us here? It's a self-government. He's ordained that we be in charge of our government. So, you mean to tell me God put me in charge, but if I do something with it that I'm violating God's Word, no, no. That's oxymoronic. I mean, that's not accurate. So, Jesus tells us you render to Caesar with Caesar's, and you render God with God. It's not a Socratic choice where you have to choose one or the other. We have to be involved. And if we're going to continue to enjoy political protection for our biblically given rights, we have to stay involved. There's no option on that. We have to be involved, we have to choose leaders who'll be friendly to these values, God-fearing leaders. Only that way do we get to exercise the rights that God has told us we can exercise. 

Questioner 2 [00:18:02] Okay, David, let's get another question from the audience. Isn't God gonna pick the rulers, regardless of whether I'm involved or voting in the election? 

Rick Green [00:18:09] Well, obviously it's true that God does raise up leaders and raise up nations. So what does it matter if my one vote, if I go cast that vote or not? 

David Barton [00:18:17] I love what Thomas Burnett told the people in 1801, he was talking to a big group preaching in Connecticut. He said, to God and posterity, you're accountable for your rights and your rulers. You'll answer to God for your rulers, but you'll also answer your kids. He said let not your children have a reason to curse you for giving up those rights and prostrating those institutions which your fathers delivered to you. We've been given some great institutions, some great blessings. And we say, oh, I'm not going to do anything. God is going to raise it up. And lo and behold, we get over to people who have an anti-God view, a secular view, a very aggressively hostile view. And then our kids, 40 years from now, say, what were you guys thinking? Now we're going to jail for sharing the gospel. Now if we say the word God on the sidewalk, we're arrested. It's not just God we'll answer to, it's subsequent generations should the Lord tarry. And by the way, I've got to say that every single generation since Christ was here the first time thought Christ was coming back in their generation, if possible. And I believe the Bible is the inspired, inerrant, infallible Word of God, no question about it. And yet, I see that Peter and James and Paul all said that they were living in the last days. Now, what's that mean? Well, it must mean the last days last at least 2,000 years. You see, that's not our issue. The thing that we're told by Jesus in Luke 19:13 is, occupy till I come. And if we let eschatology get in the way of saying, well, you know, it's all over, this is the End Times, and it doesn't matter, whatever we do, it's already decreed by God. No, you occupy till I come. Thomas Jefferson had a letter to his daughter 200 years ago. He said, you're hearing all this stuff about the End Times and about the End of Days and about, the end is at hand. He said nobody knows the End Time but the Father in heaven who will send the Son. He said therefore, you live your life here without thinking about what the End Time might be, your duty is right now, right here. It's not out here somewhere, and that's the same for all of us. That's why Jesus says, you occupy till I come. So is God gonna pick the rulers? Yeah, and He was gonna pick them through us if we'll get involved. If we choose not to be involved, then the pagans will pick the rulers and we'll have a whole different nation. 

Rick Green [00:20:23] All right, David, time for one more. Let's find out what the next question is. 

Questioner 3 [00:20:26] Doesn't the Bible say to submit to authority and not disagree? 

Rick Green [00:20:30] You know, some people even say that's the reason that we never should have had a revolution in America. We're just supposed to submit, and no matter what, don't disagree with government. What about today? 

David Barton [00:20:40] Yeah, the Bible does tell us to submit. But it doesn't say don't disagree. I mean, clearly, the three Hebrew children disagreed with Nebuchadnezzar. Daniel disagreed Nebuchadnezzar. The Hebrew midwives disagreed with Pharaoh when he told them, you go kill all those Hebrew babies under two. Not only did they disagree, they disobeyed. And you'll find that Hebrews 11, which is our faith hall of fame, which lists all these heroes of our faith, so many of the people who appear there, appear there because they disobeying civil authority. Now, does that indicate anarchy? No. And that's the proper interpretation of Romans 13, is when God says to submit to government and those in authority, what he's saying is submit to the institution of government, not to every single government that's out there. Does that mean if I'm in China and they tell me I have to abort my baby because they have a forced abortion policy that I have go make sure my child is murdered? No, no, no. There's higher laws than that. And that what the apostles dealt with in Acts 4 and 5, where they said, hey, you civil leaders have told us to stop proclaiming the name of Jesus. We gotta make a choice. Is it gonna be you or God? We think we'll go with God. That's civil disobedience. 

Rick Green [00:21:42] So help me break it into two categories then. You might have something like that where it's clear you have to go against what government said because they're trying to get you to violate God's laws, but then maybe where part of the question was going even just disagreeing with government at all or fighting to change government or to bring our nation back to what it was originally founded on. 

David Barton [00:21:57] Let me answer that by going back to the premise, do we submit to government? In America, who's the government? 

Rick Green [00:22:05] It's us. 

David Barton [00:22:06] It's us, let me pull a document here. This is original from 1780; that's the original Constitution of Massachusetts. By the way, the Constitution of Massachusetts is the only constitution in the world older than the U.S. Constitution. We have the longest ongoing Constitutional Republic in the history of the world, but Massachusetts did their Constitution nine years before we ratified the U.S. Constitution. Now, unfortunately, a lot of the judges in their state don't read their constitution, but they got a great constitution. 

Rick Green [00:22:29] It's still there. It may get ignored by the courts. 

[00:22:31] It's still there. It may be ignored. And by the way, the Founding Fathers at the Constitutional Convention said that they were copying what the states had done in their constitutions and created the federal constitution. 

Rick Green [00:22:40] And so this was one of those states that they really modeled. 

David Barton [00:22:42] Let me read here in the first part, it starts with John Adams giving an address to the people because he was a key part of writing that constitution. Then they get to the Declaration of Rights. These are the Declaration Rights right at the front, the rights of the people and their fundamental principles of government that are set forth. Now let me just read the fifth principle here. All power residing originally in the people and being derived from the people to several magistrates and officers of government vested with authority. Whether legislative, executive, or judicial, all three branches, are the people's substitutes and agents and are at all time accountable to the people. Now if we're supposed to submit to government, hey, we are the government. That's why the only title in the Constitution says we the people, you know who's really supposed to submit is the leaders are supposed to submit to the people. When the people express their will as you know we've had 31 states express their will that marriage between a man and a woman, we got leaders not wanting to submit to that. We've got people, America's overwhelmingly a pro-life nation. We've leaders don't want to submit to the will of the people. We're the authority. So we often get it reversed. They are servants, they are substitutes. They're always accountable to us, not us accountable to them. 

Rick Green [00:23:52] That's why we should call them public servants. 

David Barton [00:23:53] That's right. 

Rick Green [00:23:54] They're not public officials. 

David Barton [00:23:53] That's right. They're not public officials. 

Rick Green [00:23:55] They said something like agents. They're our substitutes. So we give that power to government. 

David Barton [00:24:00] We loan that power. We can take it back. 

Rick Green [00:24:03] And then they are still accountable to us. So, it's not that we've set up government and said, okay, now you run our lives and take care of everything. We said we're going to hire you basically to go do certain things. 

David Barton [00:24:11] We believe again that government is ordained by God, and believing that it's ordained by God. This is the kind of government He's ordained in America, is self-government. We are in charge of our leaders. So, when we say submit to government, what does that mean? That really means the leaders are supposed to follow the will of the people, as we've expressed it in so many ways. But submitting to the government, really the way you express that is by your involvement in the process that God has ordained and established here under a constitution, which is choosing our leaders. Helping reflect our laws, disagreeing with laws that are wrong, working to change those laws, contacting members of Congress or legislature or school board or city council and saying, whoa, guys, this is not right. If we don't use our voice when we've been given, and this is a real important thing to use our voices, because if you go back in the scriptures, remember when Moses, who God used him to lead the people out of slavery and through the wilderness in the Promised Land, Moses didn't get to go in the Promise Land. And the reason was, that when the people were murmuring and complaining and God said, well strike the rock, bring forth water out of the rock. Moses said, do we have to do this again for you guys? Well, who's this we business? I think God's the one who brings water. And God says, because you didn't sanctify me and I as the people, because You didn't set me apart. You didn't set me above. You're not going to the Promised Land. Later He says, oh, by the way, Aaron, you're not going in either. What did I do? I didn't say anything, exactly. When Moses made that bad statement, you kept your mouth shut. You should've said that Moses, it's God that does it. You're not bringing water out of the rock. It's God. You didn't say anything, you're not going in. That silence, that inactivity was counted as something wrong. And it still is for us today.

Rick Green [00:25:44] So that's the same in our culture today. If we see government doing things that are wrong, we see our culture going the wrong direction 

David Barton [00:25:48] And we don't do anything with it. 

Rick Green [00:25:49] We just step back. We're as guilty

David Barton [00:25:50] Well, see, that's what we're told in the scriptures, too. If you see someone being led to the slaughter and you don't step up, blood's on your head. And see, this is the way it is in so many policies that wrong is being advanced, unrighteous is being advance, we see it, but if we keep silent, God will say, you had an opportunity to speak out. Now, why was it that you didn't say anything on that? And so, yeah, we've got to be involved. Submit to government. That simply means don't have anarchy. The institution of government is what God wants. To have no government is to have anarchy, and that's what God doesn't want. So yeah, we submit to government by submitting to the system, which puts us in charge. We need to be involved. 

Rick Green [00:26:29] Thanks for listening today, folks. Many of you have the DVD set of the American Heritage Series. You can get the sequel, which is Building on the American Heritage Series. A lot of new material, some fantastic programs you want to have in your library. You can it at our website today at wallbuilders.com.