Franklin’s Prayer And The Constitution

Benjamin Franklin didn’t just give a clever speech at the Constitutional Convention, he tried to keep the whole thing from collapsing. When tempers rise, delegates start heading home, and the nation’s future hangs in the balance, Franklin points everyone back to a practice they once treated as normal: seeking God’s help. We walk through what the records actually show, why daily prayer wasn’t adopted on the spot, and how a strategic July 4 church service helped reset the tone and move the convention forward.\n\nFrom there we shift to a very practical question every history fan runs into: how “accurate” should a historical movie be? We talk about Young Washington, what it gets right in storyline and spirit, and why you shouldn’t judge a film by whether every sentence matches an archived document. The bigger question is whether the portrayal gives a true picture of character, convictions, and the pressures leaders faced.\n\nWe also tackle two listener-favorite topics for summer conversations: the education and faith background of the Declaration signers, and the real meaning behind the Appeal To Heaven flag. You’ll hear why the pine tree matters, how liberty poles and ship masts connect to property rights, and why the motto reflects both political philosophy and sermon-driven resistance theology.\n\nIf this kind of “hidden history” helps you, subscribe, share the show with a friend, and leave a review. What question do you want us to tackle next?

Transcript

Rick Green [00:00:07] This is the intersection of faith and culture, The WallBuilders Show, taking on the hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective, and the topic of the today is your choice. So, send in your questions to radio@wallbuilders.com, radio@wallbuilders.com. Every Thursday we do something called Foundations of Freedom, and it's a chance to dive into topics more specific to what you're curious about. Maybe the Founding Fathers, maybe something they did or didn't do, maybe going all the way back to the Pilgrims, maybe you got something that's happening right now in Washington, D.C. Or in your local state. But send those questions into us at radio@wallbuilders.com. And then tomorrow we'll have Good News Friday for you, so you don't want to miss that as well. Lots of good news David and Tim have piled up ready to share tomorrow. So, let's jump into those questions. By the way, that's David and Tim Barton, if you're a first-time listener. I'm Rick Green, and we welcome you to the program. Ted is up first. I don't know how this happened, but a Californian gets to ask the first question today. And he says, after Benjamin Franklin suggested prayer at the Constitutional Convention, did Congress do it? I heard that Congress did not start the daily prayer sessions, did they reject it, but each member started praying separately at home? Things seemed to turn after that, but I don't know how it worked itself out in detail. Also, if they did not accept prayer in Congress, do we have any of the minister's names and prayers on record? Thank you, Ted. And so, guys, just context for our audience. This would be at the Constitutional Convention, not the early Continental Congresses where the Declaration was done, but 1787, that long summer, that hot summer with the doors and windows shut. And some really cool scenes depicted in the new movie, A Great Awakening about George Whitefield and Benjamin Franklin's friendship. Okay. So, toss it to you guys. So, he definitely has an amazing speech there in the middle of, I guess what we're five weeks into the convention, maybe it might've been further along than that and people are leaving. It's falling apart. He gives this fantastic speech depicted in the movie and something changed. What happened guys? 

David Barton [00:01:58] Yeah, it's interesting. There's, there's some pretty decent records on what happened there. There's not exhaustive records, but there's enough to know the story. And so it, it, like these guys all the way through Congress, all the way through the Continental Congress, had been praying regularly. They had two to three chaplains, every Congress that they had in Congress. And so, it was like, I don't know if it's one of the things that you've just kind of take for granted because we've been doing this for 15 years in Congress kind of stuff. And They got there and they started having debates, which they had all the time, but there was less agreement on it and a little, maybe a little more testy is what it kind of seems like. And so, at that point, people start leaving and going home. There's indications that George Mason had it. He was going back to Virginia and other guys were relieving and going home and, and just, you know, kind of frustrated actually. 

Tim Barton [00:02:50] And Dad, to clarify, when you're saying Congress, they've been there for 15 years, that would have been the Continental Congress during the American Revolution. That would have be starting in 1774, where the first Continental of Congress, going all the way to 1783, when we had the Peace Treaty of Paris, and then you have the Art of the Confederation. So, 1787, they're back in Independence Hall, went to the same place. They had been meeting in Congress pretty much since America became a nation. But this time, they are not there to meet as Congressmen, per se. They are there to try to resolve the problem with needing a new Constitution. They knew the Articles of Confederation was terrible. And so Dad, when you say they used to pray every day, during the American Revolution, this is a very important part of Benjamin Franklin's speech, which Rick, as you mentioned is in the movie, The Great Awakening and what I loved so much about the speech in the movie, the Great Awakening is that he quoted the whole speech that is recorded in James Madison's notes. It's what Benjamin Franklin said. This is what I said. Let me just. It's incredible that the whole speech was in the movie. It was great. But all of that to say, is Dad, when you're saying they used to pray all the time, multiple chaplains, Franklin alludes to that and says that during the critical stage of the Revolution, we had daily prayer in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers were heard and they were graciously answered. So, if you go back and look at the records, not only were there multiple chaplain's that were serving throughout the American Revolution in Congress. But according to Benjamin Franklin, they used to pray every single day. Now, Dad, I'm only interrupting to add a little context because if people don't know the sequence going from the Revolution now to the Constitutional Convention, this is a different Congress that's been called for a different purpose. And so, they're not following the pattern of what was set as standard during the American Revolution. This is now something different. And as it's falling apart, this is where Benjamin Franklin gets up and he's basically saying, hey guys, maybe we should go back to doing what we used to do every day in this room. 

Rick Green [00:04:49] Yeah, Tim, as you were describing that, I was remembering in the movie, just how good that scene was, actually a couple of scenes they did in what was a mockup of Independence Hall, just really, really cool, well done. And even the, the drama of how he delivered the speech. I just, I loved every single minute, minute of it. David, I know, you know, I learned that speech from you years ago. You brought it to life and, uh it was cool to watch that displayed in a, in a, and a very quality Hollywood fashion. Actually, I don't even want to give it Hollywood. I don't want to give it the Hollywood name just quality a broadcast fashion, let's say 

Tim Barton [00:05:23] Well, not that it pertains to the answer of this question, but I do want to point out I'm in Philadelphia right now and today and tomorrow I'm actually filming. I was in Independence Hall all morning and literally telling this story of Franklin's call to prayer, among many other incredible stories happened in Independence Hall. So, as we're having this conversation, it's even more fun for me because that's literally where I am right now. But Dad, not to digress, we interrupted your story. Please continue on. 

David Barton [00:05:49] Well, answering the question is, it was suggested and there was some discussion actually at the time, really, they were concerned about optics as much as anything. If they suddenly start bringing preachers in and having prayer, it's not gonna look good that they haven't been doing it first off and that people are leaving. And so, what they decided to do is they were coming up, this was June the 28th. And so, this was actually Thursday, June the 20th and they're coming up on the Fourth of July. Which is a time they need to celebrate. They're going to celebrate, they want to celebrate and so what they decide to do is recess and go to church. And then they take the next three days off and it's kind of over the weekend too. And then as they come in the next week, it's like, well, this is Fourth of July week. We really need to do something to honor the Fourth of July. And so, they convene at a church on the Fourth of July, the Reverend William Rogers Church, and they convened and he has a special prayer over them on the Fourth of July. And that prayer is actually printed, ends up being printed on the front page. And it's not a small prayer. I mean, it was a significant time. So Reverend William Rogers had the prayer. James Campbell had an oration. And so, Congress gathered those there. And then after that point, after that kind of several days there, after Franklin kind of challenged them, said we need to get ahold of God, you'll see things start shifting. The attitude shift, the change of shift. There's indications from other delegates that they started having prayer, working that in and started getting back to it. But it reoriented their mind. They started becoming God conscious again. And over the next 10 weeks, they come up with the fantastic document that we've had now for coming up on, what is it, 237 years that we had that document, 238 years. 

Tim Barton [00:07:28] 239 years this September. 

David Barton [00:07:30] So there it is. So, coming up that birthday, but that's how it happened. So there was, just specifically to answer the question, things did turn around after that. But they were concerned about optics, but he got back to their priorities. And it's not that they were afraid of prayer at all because, you know, as Tim pointed out, as I mentioned, they'd been doing this literally for years in the Continental Congress. This is what they did, Rick. And that's just one body. They didn't have a house in the Senate, but yet they had three chaplains for the single body. So, they were serious about it. 

Tim Barton [00:08:02] Well, and I think, too, part of the strategy, not to go back and review the notes from the Convention, but my recollection is part of the strategy when they took that three day cooling off that recess period, the conversation leading into that was they said, look, we don't want to bring in a pastor right now, but the Fourth of July is coming up and it would be very reasonable that on the Fourth of July that we would do something religious and spiritual. And then if we're already connected with a pastor, we can just ask the pastor to say over. Nobody thinks it's weird. But I say that because I think it was part of a strategic plan, if I'm a collection, that it wasn't just on Fourth of July, then going, hey, what do you want to do today? Oh, let's go down to church. Strategically, they were thinking through, acknowledging with actually part of the strategy that Franklin was correct with his valid assessment, that we need God's help in what we are doing. And so part of their strategy, where they decided that they could overcome the appearance... And in part of as we mentioned appearance it really was their concern was the acceptance of the people that the people might reject a document If it looked like it had to be salvaged by pastors and you know, etc, etc. etc. And so they were concerned for the acceptance, stability, longevity of the document they produce not to digress Their strategy was let's go to church on July 4th and then let's invite a pastor to just come back with us every day and nobody's gonna think it's weird or odd because we were just with the pastor. So they didn't do it on his suggestion of June twenty eighth, they didn't do it right then, but it was literally the next week when they go to church and then get connected with pastors and then bring chaplains back. So much so that when you to the first Congress when the Constitution is ratified 1789, you have the first Congress morning and they bring in chaplain's and it's not them doing something new. It's them continuing on with the tradition that we had had in our nation virtually since we became a nation. 

Rick Green [00:09:59] All right, guys, and just another plug, everybody go see A Great Awakening. If you haven't seen it yet, you need to watch A Great Awakening, just a fantastic movie and the perfect year to be watching that. All right. Next, next question up is from, let's see, where are they from? Violet is, from Colorado. And she said, is the new Young Washington movie historically accurate? So here's another movie guys. So we got A Great Awakening and then Young Washington, A Great Awakening of course about Whitfield and Franklin as we were talking about earlier. And then Young Washington clearly about Washington early on in life. And of course, David, you had the book. When did you do the book Bulletproof Washington? Before we get to the movie, you did this book like 20 years ago, right? I remember when you had Dean Jones do the audio version of it. 

David Barton [00:10:38] Was it after Truman declared peace at the end of World War II? 

Rick Green [00:10:45] I remember, I remember Dean joking about, you know, little David Barton, climbing up on some, some stumps to look through the window, at St. John's church in Virginia for Patrick Henry's, Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death Speech. I don't remember where that was that he joked about that. Maybe it was in that recording or maybe it was when he made that video for that dinner we had for you and Cheryl all those years ago. But anyway, that, he loved joking about that David Barton's been around since the beginning. 

David Barton [00:11:11] Yeah, well, my recommendation is go see the movie. I think it's a really good movie to see. I think it is historically accurate as far as the story goes. I wouldn't say that all the dialog is historically accurate, and it's just not going to get that unless you're, you're just reading the literal writings back then. But as far as the story of Young Washington, I think, it's really important to understand what was going back then, what his thinking was, how he kind of grew into that. Man, he didn't have any experience before that that to any great degree, certainly not military. That's his first kind of military experience and it's under a really arrogant general. And he has a lot of stuff to navigate. I think it's a really, really, really good movie. I would just say, don't look at every phrase that's said and said, hey, Washington said this and here's what the French said, and then don't go there. But the tone is really good on it. 

Tim Barton [00:12:05] Now, Dad, you have seen this one, correct? 

David Barton [00:12:07] I have seen it, yes. 

Tim Barton [00:12:09] Because it's been on my list and every time I think I have a evening or afternoon to go watch it something else comes up. So I haven't got to see it yet. I am curious, which, Dad, as you mentioned, you know If people want to have the actual story go back to the original writings and that's really what your book the Bulletproof George Washington did. It was going back and taking the letters that George Washington wrote and some of the the records from some of the commanders who were there and even, even and this is where I want to ask the question, even the acknowledgement of the Indian leaders that 15 years later came back to meet George Washington, does a young Washington, doesn't have any tease ahead to these natives that want to come back later to meet this guy that they could not kill in battle, is that in The Young Washington? 

David Barton [00:12:56] It is at the end of it. It doesn't have all the detail, but it has the Indian chief saying, hey, this guy is amazing. He's remarkable, we got to keep our eyes on him. So that is there. It has a slight God acknowledgement that the Creator has prepared him through what he survived for what's coming. So there's a head nod of what's coming. It doesn’t' have the extensive language that Washington used or that the chiefs used and how miraculous was his saving, but you see it. I mean, they depict it. So. It is kind of like watching a good Hollywood movie out of post-World War II, you know, like Sergeant York or something like that. It's not gonna have all the Christian testimony that Alvin York had himself, but it's gonna have a good tone throughout that indicates that kind of a tone. 

Tim Barton [00:13:43] Well, and I might clarify because Sergeant York did have a pretty good Christian tone that's, that was back before Hollywood censored it so much. Similar with like a Hacksaw Ridge where, you know, Desmond Doth, you can't watch their story and not see the Christ centered, the God centered nature, but to your point, it's not detail accurate, but a maybe good representation and it's still on my list. I'm excited to go see it. And Rick, when you and I finally see it, maybe we can add our additional critiques and assessments to my dad's recommendation of go see it but don't believe every line he says. 

Rick Green [00:14:19] Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait to, you know, we were going to do a screening of it. The production company was going to let us do an early screening of it at the campus right before July 4th and they had an embargo on their screenings during July 4th, we just never could get around to getting it done and on, on the schedule. So definitely looking forward to seeing it either in the theater or if we could pull it off in our, in our big chamber with that massive screen in there, I think it'd be, that'd be cool as well, but can't wait to see it. 

David Barton [00:14:42] I would say go enjoy the movie, do not record the language, all the dialog and come back and ask AI if every line is correct. Just enjoy the movie.

Rick Green [00:14:51] Just enjoy the movie, I would think too, David, you have to do some of that. You have to, in order to talk in today's language where people can understand it well enough, you know, and not have like the old English, even with some of these guys or whatever. You'd have to add some dialog that makes it, you know, gets the point across. Cause you're trying to communicate the story. You're trying communicate what they were up against and how Washington responded and that kind of stuff. So I'm like you that, that does not bother me one bit. As long as they don't give a, a wrong image of, of Washington. Like, like that well, what was an H-back.. I can't remember who did Turn, but they have Washington out there praying, you know, kneeling in prayer at Valley Forge, not to God, praying to some ghost of some mentor of his from years before, that, it was ridiculous. So regardless of how he said it, they created the wrong image, the wrong takeaway, that's what I'm really interested in from the movie. 

David Barton [00:15:41] Yeah. What you've got here is it covers about 12 years of his life when he's a young man. And that 12 years of life gets covered in about two hours. And that tells you tells you everything you need to know. But they cover it very accurately. The tone is right. It's really good tone and you're going to learn a lot from it. And you're gonna understand a lot. So it's, it's definitely worth seeing. 

Rick Green [00:15:59] All right, we're going to take a quick break. We've got more questions from the audience coming up. Stay with us, folks. You're listening to The WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:18:10] Welcome back to The WallBuilders Show. Thanks for staying with us on this Foundations of Freedom Thursday. Next question comes in from Diane. She said, for July 4th, I sent questions to our family string. I think she means like a family thread. We do the same thing with our, our texts. Anyway, she said one of the questions was how many Signers had seminary degrees? From the info I have from WallBuilders, the answer is 29. However, my granddaughter said there's only one, John Witherspoon. She states her source says many went to college and the primary purpose was to train pastors, but they actually got their degrees. In other subjects, John Adams, for instance, is attending Harvard, who primarily trained pastors, but he got his degree in law. Can you help me respond correctly? They get points and a prize, so this question is pending your answer. So that's hilarious. I love that. That's a great tradition right there. Ask historical questions in your family threads and give away prizes. Go ahead guys. 

David Barton [00:18:57] So what I would say is I'm going to go, Tim and I have both spoken at a bunch of colleges, universities, all over the United States. I'm gonna go to Springfield, Missouri. There's two colleges there. There's Evangel Bible college and there's Baptist Bible college there. They're both, they're both Bible colleges. That is in their name. Evangel Bible college, Bible Baptist college. And yet you can graduate from that Bible college with journalism or you can graduate with teaching, or you graduate with lots of stuff. And that's the way the Founders were. 29 of them went to Bible colleges. Not all of them came out with seminary degrees, although the degree they came out with, it's not specialized like we've had in the 20th Century. You came out with a basic learning, and from that learning, you could have walked into the pulpit or you could walk into business or you can walk in all of it because you had a Bible base for all of that. So it's not the way we do now where you have 43 different degrees and you choose your degree, you go get that basis. And I would point that there's four individuals we know of the Signers that are active in ministry, not just Witherspoon, but others as well. 

Tim Barton [00:20:01] Well, and Dad, one thing to clarify. So like the granddaughter, making a valid point, they graduated from Bible schools or seminaries didn't necessarily mean that they were themselves graduating with a seminary degree. And to your point, Dad, super valid. One of the things that to add to this, when you're saying like, look, they could have graduated and gone to preach, well, yes, if they would have wanted to go through seminary, they would've taken some additional specialized classes. And for some of them, even the higher-level schooling after that for many people want to be pastors. Because it used to be back in the day that we believed that pastors should be some of the most educated. So there was a far higher level of education. But kind of Dad, I think to the point you're trying to make, that is foundational to this, at every university back then part of the philosophy of the university was to equip their young people for ministry and whatever field God had called them to. So they were training them to be ministers, not all to be pastors. And that's where there's a nuance difference, but kind of, again, to support this idea. When you would go to university back then, one of your projects, freshmen projects, and this was consistent, like across the board of universities, your freshman project was to translate a portion of the Greek Septuagint of the Greek New Testament into English. And this was for anybody coming. This, this wasn't just for the really bright seminary future pastors. No, this was, for everybody coming similar to when I went to a Christian College. I went to Southwestern Assemblies of God University. I was pursuing athletics at the time. Turned out I wasn't as athletic as I wanted to be. But I was required as a freshman to take New Testament Survey, Old Testament Survey, Scripture and Ethics. Like I can go down the list. When I graduated, I graduated with a minor in Biblical Studies just because of all of the courses I was having to take in Bible even though I graduated with a business degree. That's the way it was for the Founding Fathers. They were being trained to be ministers. Even though not all of them would become pastors, they were learning those biblical foundational things. So this is a nuance with a significant distinction, but it is a lot of overlap in the Christian education that we're really making the point of. 

David Barton [00:22:13] Dare say I, that I think that had you graduated with a basic degree from those universities back then, you probably have more Bible knowledge than specialized seminaries today. I think they're basic level for what they taught because you had to read Greek, you had to read Latin, you read Hebrew, you went through the Scriptures, you went through The Classics, and that's just for everyday basic kids. That's what you're covering graduate stuff now, so even the level they had that was pretty basic then. Would be a lot higher for our seminarians today. 

Rick Green [00:22:44] All right. Well, we'll see who wins the text thread. Who gets the prizes? You can't send them into David and Tim. They don't get the prizes. Uh, I don't know who in your family is going to get it. Or I guess, I guess I actually, um, let's see. She was Diane. I bet she was the one wanting to get the price. Okay. Sergio. Let's see if we can get this one in before we run out of time, guys. Sergio says, hey, WallBuilders team, since you guys are the experts on the hidden history of our founding, I was hoping you could settle a debate for me. I'm looking to fly the Appeal to Heaven Flag from my car window, but I want to make sure I've got the story straight. I know the motto is a nod to John Locke's idea that when we're out of earthly options, we look up, but what's the deal with that specific pine tree? Was it just a convenient revolutionary brand or does that tree have a deeper spiritual or political significance that we're missing today? Love the show. Thanks for keeping the history alive. And Sergio, thanks for sending in that question. I got one of these appeal to heaven flags, the huge 10 by 15 flying from the front gate of the Patriot Academy campus right now. All right guys, what do you say about that pine tree? 

David Barton [00:23:36] Yeah, first off, you take the motto. So the motto does go back to John Locke, but it also goes to sermons like Jonathan Mayhew's sermon, Rebellion to Tyrants, Obedience to God, the whole concept that, man, when you get to the point where civil government is so bad, you appeal to God. And it's okay to resist bad laws and bad stuff when they violate what God tells you to do. So there's a lot of theological basis for that. And John Lockey is certainly one of the big voices on that, his Second Treatise particularly. But the pine tree, why the pine-tree? Several things. One is, that's where the Liberty Pole comes from. They had these Liberty Poles all over New England. And you erected a Liberty Pole, and that Liberty Pole came out of a white pine tree. That's also what they used for the ship mast was that pine tree. So that pine tree was the essence of the symbol of the way that they're pushing back and fighting back. That's that Liberty pole. They actually had, this is almost unbelievable, they had Liberty Poles as high as 170 feet back then so that people could see it literally from miles away and be drawn to that. And that was a meeting place, kind of like their announcement way. So the Liberty Pole came out of that tree. That tree is that tree actually goes back to the 1650s. They started using that as a symbol in Massachusetts as part of the essence of who they were as people that white pine. That was that was it. So. You see that with masts, you see that in the military, you see in what they build, the forts they do, you see it in the Liberty Poles. That was just kind of the summation of the symbol that they had that goes back into the mid-1600s from Massachusetts. 

Rick Green [00:25:13] Yeah, and I think David too, this is a property rights flag. I mean, this was also motivated by people because of the conflict with the king over wanting the tallest trees and the best trees for masts for the ships. And there were private landowners that were having some of their trees taken. There was some land that was the king's. There was something that was in dispute about whose it was. But this was literally saying, not only are we appealing to God, part of the reason we're appealing to god for this is because our property rights have been violated and the king is taking the best of our property instead of letting us have it. And, so I love to remind people of that, especially these, these disputes I've been in with the, with the Patriot Academy campus and, and the government telling us what to do. That's why I'm flying that appeal to heaven flag as a reminder that who owns the land? To ask that question, who owns the land? And of course the King thought he owned everything and would take even some of the best of the, I consider trees produce. Would you guys say trees are produce? I mean, you know, you're raising up a crop essentially there. 

Tim Barton [00:26:07] Well, especially back then. Well, I'm just trying to grow some money on them is what I'm trying to do. But yes, they certainly could be considered produce. Obviously, you harvest timber and then if you're growing fruit on them, it's even more. So, Rick, I support that notion wholeheartedly. 

Rick Green [00:26:21] And it's green on the on the flag. So yeah growing some money right there on those pine trees. Hey guys great answers today and great questions from the audience really want to encourage the audience to keep those questions coming. And maybe some of our listeners will pick up this idea of asking good questions in their family text threads and giving away prizes Thanks so much for listening today. Join us tomorrow for Good News Friday. You've been listening to the WallBuilders Show