Victory Mindset For Young Civic Leaders - with Thomas Umstattd and Elias Coop-Gonzalez

We’re coming to you from the Patriot Academy National Leadership Congress in Constitution City, Texas, where more than a hundred young adults are debating bills on the floor in a full legislative simulation. It’s constitutional education with real-world pressure, real speeches, real motions, and the kind of civic leadership training most people never get until they’re already in office, if they ever get it at all.

We sit down with Patriot Academy alum Thomas Umstattd to talk about something deeper than procedures: mindset. He argues it’s time to trade retreatism for an attitude of victory and to recover the belief that we can actually take ground in culture and public life. From there, we zoom out into storytelling and influence, including how books shape leaders over decades, then into a fascinating thread on Elon Musk, Benjamin Franklin, and why radical accountability beats committee-driven systems. That leads to the hard question underneath modern bureaucracy: if nobody can be held responsible, can anything be fixed?

Later, we talk with West Virginia delegate Elias Coop-Gonzalez, who came to Patriot Academy as a teenager, ran for office at 19, and became the youngest member of his state legislature. He shares what helped him hold his ground, why community and mentorship matter, and what he wants the next generation to carry with them. We also preview two timely topics brought to the students: when to compromise without becoming compromised, and how to think clearly about AI without panic or blind trust.

If you care about civics, constitutional literacy, and raising up serious young leaders, subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Rick Green [00:00:07] Welcome to The WallBuilders Show with David Barton and Tim Barton and Rick Green. I'm Rick Green, America's Constitution Coach. Thanks so much for joining us today. Going to be coming to you from the Patriot Academy National Leadership Congress taking place at the Patriot Academy campus in Constitution City, Texas. We do these Leadership Congresses all over the country and state capitals, but our National Leadership Congress we do at the Patriot Academy campus where we rebuilt the Texas House chamber so that we could basically where we could do these year round. Now, this is our big one. This is the one where students that have been to some of our regionals around the country come into the Texas Capitol and get to do, you know, basically our biggest event of the year, and it involves all the legislative simulation, the teaching, the training, the constitutional education, biblical worldview, communications training, you name it, and we have a fantastic time with it. So let's let's jump over to the to the House Chamber over there where we've got some of the special guests that are going to be sharing with you today. Coming to you live from the Patriot Academy Campus in the Legislative Hall. So, it's very noisy. So, all that noise in the background, we've got, I think it's 115, maybe 120 young people on the House floor in the Legislative Hall at Patriot Academy in Constitution City, Texas. And they are learning the Constitution, but they're actually living it out on the House floor. And so, you can hear the activity as they're working on some bill. I don't even know what bill they're trying to pass, but seated here with me. Is Thomas Umstattd, Patriot Academy grad from, wow, 20 years ago. What year did you first come, '05? 

Thomas Umstattd [00:01:35] '05. 

Rick Green [00:01:36] '05, wow. And then you were Speaker of the House, 06? Yes. So you've actually had that gavel in your hand. 

Thomas Umstattd [00:01:42] I still have that gavel in my office, yeah, a prized possession. 

Rick Green [00:01:45] I love it. Well Thomas came all those years ago and then began it became began to speak at Patriot Academy. And I remember you tell the story one time about the first time Rick gave me a speaking slot It was like 10 minutes. I don't know and then it was 20 minutes, and there was an hour, I don't remember the progression, but eventually you were doing half the talks it seems like. So, but it's been a few years and we are thrilled to have you back man. I know you're gonna do two talks this afternoon What are you hoping these kids get us kids? They're adults, young adults, but now you can actually,

Thomas Umstattd [00:02:13] This is my first time where they feel like kids. I'm like, oh my goodness. This is a different generation. So, I think the number one thing is having a attitude of victory. I think that it's time for us to repent from retreatism. I think for a long time, when things got hard, the response was we'll just retreat and build our own thing. And it's to start eating from vineyards that we didn't plant. And eating from fields that we didn't plant the grain, and taking land from the enemy. And that shift in mindset, I think, is if nothing else gets across, I want that change. 

Rick Green [00:02:56] I love that. You've always been a master of words, man. I don't know how many quotes, jokes, everything else I still use today that I stole from you 20 years ago. 

Thomas Umstattd [00:03:03] Well, to let you know, I still a lot of your stuff still. 

Rick Green [00:03:07] Oh, man, and actually, speaking of that, let's actually sidetrack for a second. So, tell us what you're doing now. Talk to us about how you're helping authors and all the other things you're doing, because I think that's important for people to realize, too, that we need more voices and we need people to step into the debate or even just a culture conversations going on. 

Thomas Umstattd [00:03:27] Yeah. So I'm a professional podcaster, if you can believe it. It was not a real job when I was in Patriot Academy. I still don't feel like it's a real job right now. But I have three podcasts. The old one is Novel Marketing Podcast. It's the longest running book marketing podcast in the world. And it's just a bread and butter here's how to market your book. And then I have the Christian Publishing Show which is about how to write good books and how to honor God through your writing. But my newest show is Author Update, which gets into the culture and gets into politics. But how it affects the kind of stories that resonate with readers. And so, in some ways I feel like I'm out of the game, but another way I feel like I am influencing the influencers for the long term. Because Elon Musk is this big asset to the movement now, and he's a big asset now because of the books he read as a teenager, getting beat up in South Africa, reading Asimov, reading Heinlein, and encountering those ideas through fiction that got him to start asking different questions and coming to different conclusions than everyone else around him. 

Rick Green [00:04:26] No, that's so good. And were you as shocked as me when Elon Musk starts sharing videos of Milton Friedman? Because he even called himself kind of a left winger, four years ago, five years ago. Kind of like Joe Rogan, same thing, just a few years ago and then all of a sudden, he's become one of the greatest advocates for the principles that, I mean, he's kind of like Franklin, right? We'd have to call; he calls himself a cultural Christian. He's certainly not where we come from in terms of the faith aspect, but he's pushing the right principles. And what you're saying is that goes all the way back to seeds that were planted in him and his teens. 

Thomas Umstattd [00:04:58] That's right, he's actually a lot like Franklin. There is an archetypal American, that's Franklin, Edison, Musk, which is the electric man. The man who's a little outside of politics, but who's very smart. 

Rick Green [00:05:10] Wait, what'd you call it? T. 

Thomas Umstattd [00:05:11] The electric man, the electric. All three men had major breakthroughs in electricity. And they were all very smart, and they all changed their era, right? Franklin, his inventions completely transformed America, from a backwater to, by the time he died, we were more advanced than Europe in many categories. The very best rifles in the world were being made in, like, backwoods Tennessee, partly because the guild system in Europe was so broken. But we had a lot of breakthroughs, and Edison, of course, is obvious, and then Musk is that same sort of outsider voice. And I think that's one of the wonderful things about the American system, is that has a room for non-professional politicians. In kind of the political discourse. And, you know, Franklin wasn't a professional politician, right, that wasn't his goal or driving energy, but he was really good at it. Edison, I think, was the least involved of the three politically, although we will see how, I think Musk realized just how toxic it is. He burned himself on the stove.  

Rick Green [00:06:19] Yes. No, I felt the same way. It was like so much good stuff, right? He's bringing such a good voice in it. All the DOGE stuff was great. Uncovering the stuff so fast in a matter of weeks and then just hit the brick wall of the swamp. And he's going, wait a minute, the very people that brought me here are now saying no to the thing that they asked me to do.  

Thomas Umstattd [00:06:38] That's right. And Musk represents, we're in this like, epochal shift. So, most nations only last 250 years. And this is a, like, law of history almost. There's a few exceptions, and we are modeled after Rome, which is one of the exceptions. So, the Roman kingdom lasted almost exactly 250 years, the Roman empire lasted two that's a 250 years as it went from the principate to the dominant, but the Roman Republic, which is what we're actually modeled off of, lasted 400 years, because it was able to self-reform. 

Rick Green [00:07:09] Break the cycle from within, break that natural cycle of getting lazy because you've had it so good. 

Thomas Umstattd [00:07:14] Exactly and said like they added the Tribune of the plebs is like this core constitutional shift where now the pleb's had a bigger voice in government. And, but that 250 year timer we have just hit. 

Rick Green [00:07:27] Yeah. 

Thomas Umstattd [00:07:28] So this is the like big question of will we continue for another 250 years? What will that transformation be? Because we'll need a change. And Musk runs his companies in a way that represents a key shift and that is he doesn't run his companies by committee. So, all of the American government and almost all organizations, your church, my church, everyone's churches, they're all run by committee. Musk's companies are not run by a committee. He runs them very much like a monarchy where people come into the throne room and give a report and they're held directly accountable and then they go and do the things. There's no committee if they move very quickly and it's why in every single sector he's able to outperform his competition. That's I think why he's struggled with DOGE because you can't just transform the American Government into that model of direct authority, which is the Nebuchadnezzar head of gold approach to government, where I give you all the authority and if you win, I cover you in gold and if you lose, I put your head on a spike. 

Rick Green [00:08:24] We can't sell that in DC? 

Thomas Umstattd [00:08:26] Yeah, no in DC everyone's allergic to that level of radical accountability And in fact the whole approach to success is to avoid as much accountability as possible. Whereas Musk only hires the best people then it gives them authority and it gives him accountability 

Rick Green [00:08:39] and he expects way more than anybody else. He demands more than anyone else, and maybe that's why he can do that, because it's bottleneck to one person. It's easier to hold them accountable. They want to rise to the occasion. I mean, I've never thought about it that way, because I've always wondered, how in the world is this guy doing space, you know, Tesla, doing all of these things, that if you just did one of those things, you'd be one of the most successful people in history, and he's doing like five of them. 

Thomas Umstattd [00:09:04] Yeah, it's very similar to Edison. Edison's biggest invention was not the light bulb or the phonograph. It was the research industrial process of putting a bunch of smart people in a room and saying, I expect you to invent a new thing every week. And every R&D program and every company has modeled after Edison's innovation of that process. And so far, no companies have the guts to copy Musk's radical accountability approach. But if you're willing to get rid of the committees and just give a person authority. You can beat all of your competitors who are still running on committee. 

Rick Green [00:09:36] Would you say, this is so interesting, man, we gotta get back together, because I would love to dive a lot further into this one, would you say but let's go down that rabbit hole just one way, does the executive branch have, is it more likely that we could do that there if you appoint a secretary of that agency and give them blanket authority? And maybe this is the whole battle the Supreme Court just ruled. Yes, the President can hire and fire. Like if the president had the authority to hire and fire everybody in the Federal Branch that is under the Executive Branch. Now you can hire a secretary of that particular agency and say, clean house, make this thing work the way it's supposed to work. 

Thomas Umstattd [00:10:11] This has always been the dream. Like presidents have been creating czars for a long time with this hope of like, I'm gonna put a person in charge. I'm going to make Kamala Harris in charge of the border and she's gonna fix it, right? So part of the problem was Kamala Harris was a low IQ person, as Trump would say. And so even if she didn't have to fight a bureaucracy, she probably couldn't have fixed it. But even if was really smart, she doesn't have enough authority because being able to replace the people at the top isn't powerful if those people don't have the same authority. It's the centurion in the book of Matthew, right? I am a man under authority and I have authority. And so you can't give somebody authority if they don't actually have authority, and so you have to be able to fire all the way down. So, we have to make bureaucrats jobs insecure, which requires a core fundamental shift in how bureaucracies work and the core social contract with bureaucrats. Because. bureaucrats have, up to this point, operated very much like artificial intelligence has, but they don't have a lot of agency, they're just an extension of the machine. And so, 2001, A Space Odyssey wasn't about AI. Nobody in the audience, when they watched that movie, had ever encountered a computer. This was the 1960s. But they had all encountered a bureaucrat who said, I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that. All of the AI movies from the 80s. Are the different views of government, right? The Terminator is not about AI. It's about the government, and it's about... Because we hadn't encountered AI that you can talk to until very recently, and none of the fiction is actually about that. And so, we've all been to the DMV where they say, you need this form. You gotta get it from somebody else to go to the other person. They say, no, you'll need the form. You go back and forth, back and forth. And they both say, I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that. That was what was resonant about that scene and why audiences in the 1960s loved it so much.

Rick Green [00:12:01] Interesting. Man oh so yeah, we got to come back to this one bro. We'll do this again for sure. Okay back to what's happening now the Leadership Congress out on the floor and you came 20 years ago. How did how did your experience at Patriot Academy affect you? 

Thomas Umstattd [00:12:14] It was a core defining moment for my life, really, because Patriot Academy gave me several really key things. It gave me some vision that I could make a difference in the world. And that was important 20 years ago, I think it's even more important right now, because there's a lot of young people who feel like they're a victim of fate and they've been dealt a bad hand and they have been dealt bad hand, right? Young people look at their parents' lives and they look at where they are when they were their parents were their same age to see that they're behind see that their parents maybe were behind their grandparents and it's very discouraging. And then it's easy to say there's nothing I can do. And Patriot Academy is like, no, t here's all kinds of things you can do. And you can't do inside of yourself. So, Patriot Academy sells itself as this Constitution training. You probably heard Rick say Constitution a million times. But what it secretly gives you is character training and skills training. 

Rick Green [00:13:10] That's good, this is a marketer.  This guy knows what's really happening here, yes.

Thomas Umstattd [00:13:12] Here’s how to give a good speech. Here's to control your emotions. Because that is not a concept that's popular, right? It's like, oh, I want to get in touch with myself. It's no, actually, you can control your emotion. You can have self control. In fact, you need to have self-control if you want to be effective in a political environment. You can't let your fear control your greed or your anger, right. All of these emotions can destroy you and you can't control them. You can control yourself, but it requires discipline. And... That discipline is what's required for free people

Rick Green [00:13:44] Yeah. Exactly right. No, you can't self-govern. I mean the free people, that's not going to last if those people aren't self-governing and that's the core of what we're teaching here. Okay, you're doing two topics this afternoon and tell us just a 30-second overview of each of those topics that you're going to cover with the students. 

Thomas Umstattd [00:13:59] So I'm a big believer that a talk's not worth giving if it's not risky. So my first talk is on compromise. And it is all about when to listen to wise counsel. Because to never compromise is to assert that you're always correct. And nobody is always correct, so we all need to compromise, but we don't want to become compromised. So how do we navigate that? And I'm looking at Benjamin Franklin and the founders predominantly, but there's a lot of proverbs snuck in, and some Star Wars references, 

Rick Green [00:14:28] That's a Thomas Humpstead presentation if I've ever heard one. 

Thomas Umstattd [00:14:32] And with Gen Z, I don't know if they like Star Wars. I will say my kids, Gen Alpha, they find Star Wars very boring. They'd rather watch Dude Perfect, do a Star Wars sketch than watch a Disney or a Lucasfilm Star Wars film. So, we're going through a big generational shift. And then my second talk is the even more risky talk and that's on AI. 

Rick Green [00:14:52] Uh, this is going to be a hot topic for sure. And, and I want to learn how to argue this one. Cause I'm dealing with that politically, you know, all over the state of Texas. 

Thomas Umstattd [00:14:59] So I'll be giving a talk to a group of armed Gen Zers who all hate AI, but they've been going to Patriot Academy and they've learned self-discipline. And they'll have just heard my talk about how to disagree agreeably. I'm prepping them. My head is at the... 

Rick Green [00:15:15] So you plan this appropriately in the order. Thomas Umstead, a website where people can learn more and catch all three of your podcasts. 

Thomas Umstattd [00:15:24] AuthorMedia.com. 

Rick Green [00:15:26] AuthorMedia.com, Thomas Umstead. It is so good to have you back at Patriot Academy. Stay with us, folks. We'll be right back on The 

Rick Green [00:16:40] Welcome back to The WallBuilders Show. We're gonna head back out to the Patriot Academy campus where we're hosting the National Leadership Congress. Next guest up is Elias Coop-Gonzalez. Coming to you live at the Patriots Academy campus in Constitution City, Texas for the National leadership Congress. All the noise you hear in the background is an actual legislative simulation taking place with young people from across the nation. And they are debating all the major issues of the day and having an incredible week. And here with us, Elias Coop-Gonzalez, who came to Patriot Academy. What, eight years ago? Ten? 

Elias Coop-Gonzalez [00:17:11] Eight years ago. 

Rick Green [00:17:11] Eight years ago for the first time, but now serves in the West Virginia House. So, he's an actual legislator. But Elias, now you're getting to coach these young people on what you actually do in real life, but giving them a simulation so that they can learn how government actually works.. 

Elias Coop-Gonzalez [00:17:27] Yep. Yeah, just to give your listeners a little bit of background. I came to PA, like I said, eight years ago when I was 16. And it was that very same year that my neighbor from across the street was elected in state legislature. And he's a very liberal guy, very much against family values. And so even though I didn't know at the time when I 16 that I was ever gonna run for office, now looking back, I can see that God was preparing me. And so when I 19, I saw this opportunity to run for Office. And obviously, I prayed about it. I talked to some of my most respected mentors, you included, and I made the decision to run. And I won, got elected, and it's... 

Rick Green [00:18:06] And you were how old?  

Elias Coop-Gonzalez [00:18:08] I was 20. 

Rick Green [00:18:08] Twenty at the time and then elected as a state legislator. 

Elias Coop-Gonzalez [00:18:11] Yep, so I was the youngest member of the West Virginia legislature, and I still am. It's been really cool to see myself come full circle just as a student here at PA, becoming a legislator, and then coming back to PA to help the students here. It's an incredible blessing for me, honestly. 

Rick Green [00:18:28] How important was your Patriot Academy experience to them even deciding to run, but definitely in how you served or how you were a part of the process? 

Elias Coop-Gonzalez [00:18:38] Yeah, Patriot Academy played a huge role. I mean, in two ways really. First, Patriots Academy prepared me in my philosophy. So, when I was here, I was really challenged to think about what I believe and why. Then I think that just having the community of people at Patriot Academy was the other big thing that helped me be a good legislator. Because when you learn the right stuff, sometimes you go out there and you try and make a difference and then you get discouraged and beat down and then just become part of the process. But when you have that good community of people that hold you accountable and keep you down to your roots, you can be a good legislator. 

Rick Green [00:19:24] Because when you get there, there's a lot of opposition, even within your own party, right? I mean, I found when I was there, some of my worst opposition was in the same party. It wasn't even from the other party. So, you need folks that you can count on and they can lift you back up. Iron Sharpening Iron, right, that's what it literally is. How do you teach, how do you then transfer that to this generation that you're teaching out here? I mean these are actually your peers. Some of them are just as old as you, but how do get that across to them? What you've learned in the legislature, actually serving in West Virginia. What do you really hope they remember from that and take with them? 

Elias Coop-Gonzalez [00:19:56] Yeah, I think it depends a little bit, you know, some of the students come and at first, they're a little more timid, just like I was, and in that case, I just try and reinforce them and show them that this is actually something that they can actually reach, right? Because that's where I started. And then you have some other students that are actually very talented and they're very zealous, and, in that, case sometimes you just need to polish them a little bit and remind them to stay humble and. 

Rick Green [00:20:23] A little hon- it's like sharpening a sword, right? I mean, you're literally honing them. 

Elias Coop-Gonzalez [00:20:26] Yeah, but what's good about that is it's always better to rein someone in who's a little overly zealous than trying to motivate someone who doesn't really want to, you know, be in there. And so personally, those are my favorite kind of students. They're a little difficult to deal with at first, but when you get them just on the right path, like they're just unstoppable. 

Rick Green [00:20:44] I'm laughing because I remember my junior my junior year of high school the guy that was my coach in mock trial and I'd gone through all this stuff. And anyway, he joked about the fact when I tell other teachers that this kid's likely to do something they aren't so sure about, because I was a little bit of a troublemaker. But he was iron sharpening me and he saw some of those things I mean you see that and some of these colleagues that you're talking to and training. Are they, you know, do they come in here grounded or do they, I mean most of them have at least a belief in God, they've got some level of constitutional respect, but they don't really know a lot of those things. I mean, do you see growth in them in the course of a week? 

Elias Coop-Gonzalez [00:21:29] Definitely. I definitely saw a lot of growth when I came to Patriot Academy. I attended in Delaware and Texas my first two years. And really the quality of instructors you have here are second to none. You have David and Tim Barton here, you have Krish Dhanam, and they absolutely just jam pack as much stuff as they can and yeah, I mean it helps you so much. 

Rick Green [00:21:53] A little bit of overload almost, like... 

Elias Coop-Gonzalez [00:21:54] Kind of an overload, but I can even say as a legislator now, I'm coming back to Patriot Academy and it helps refresh my memory on certain things and I'm still learning from them. 

Rick Green [00:22:03] The process, okay, so we're teaching on the Constitution, teaching on biblical worldviews, so they're getting the philosophy, but the process itself, actually how to get a bill through committee, how to debate on the floor, how to convince people to join your side. That's something that's really unique in what we do. And it's a bit of a fire hose. They go through a lot in that first year. You came back, what, four times, I think multiple years. Did it start sinking in a little bit more each year? I mean, did that help to have the multiple opportunities to learn those things? 

Elias Coop-Gonzalez [00:22:32] Yeah just kind of in the legislature the first time you show up you're really learning the entire time but when you come back, you're actually partaking the process it actually you know becomes kind of fun. But I will say that having gone through Patriot Academy several times before going into elected office I had an advantage over other freshmen, because pretty much every legislator that gets elected when they first get there, they've never done anything like this. And so, when they go to a committee or they see someone make a motion to move the previous question, you have no idea what that means. But... 

Rick Green [00:23:04] These are actual legislators. 

Elias Coop-Gonzalez [00:23:05] These are actual legislatures, yeah. But again, when I showed up as a freshman, I didn't know everything, but I had a pretty good idea of how things were. I knew that I needed to talk to my chairman. I knew what a point of order was. I knew all these different things. And I wouldn't have known it if I had not gone to Patriot Academy. 

Rick Green [00:23:19] Yeah, it makes a big difference, a huge, huge difference. What do you think are the most important issues for these students to be paying attention to right now? There's a large percentage of their generations buying into socialism. There's just a, there's a shift right now where Americans are trying to figure out what it means to be an American. What are you trying to get across to them while you have a week with them? 

Elias Coop-Gonzalez [00:23:41] I would say be very critical of everything that's being thrown at you. So that could be a danger, but I think a big opportunity is that for the past 50 years, especially young men, but just young people in general, we've been taught to go against our nature. And I think young people are rebelling really in a good way. And we're trying to find that truth. We're trying do the things that God intended us to do. And my encouragement to other young people is just to find and to do it.. 

Rick Green [00:24:12] Yeah. Amen. And I think there's a lot of these students out here that are doers, like they want to latch onto something. They don't want to sit around and wait. So, we just have to make sure we give them something good to work on and to latch on to. So, tell us about you. So, you're, you've done, is it two terms or three terms now? Two terms in the legislature and you decided not to run again. So, what's next for Elias? 

Elias Coop-Gonzalez [00:24:30] I want to join the military, not exactly sure what I want to do, but I have to say joining the military is what I've wanted to do my entire life. And actually, running for office was kind of like a side quest. And so now I'm going back to my original career trajectory, but that's what's next for me. 

Rick Green [00:24:45] So you've got, what, six months left? But you served through end of December, end of January? 

Elias Coop-Gonzalez [00:24:49] Yes, through the end of December. 

Rick Green [00:24:50] Okay. Well, man, thanks for your time. Thanks for coming and helping us sharpen these young people, as you said, and I look forward to getting you back. Elias Coop-Gonzalez. Thank you, Rick. Appreciate you, man. Well, folks, that was fun. We got to talk to a couple of people there at the National Leadership Congress. Have a couple more interviews we might be able to play later in the week, but just wanted you to get a taste of what we were doing at the campus. National Leadership Conference is a special, special time. Of course, we do these, as I said, at the beginning of the program all over the country and state capitals. With this one we get to do it on our home turf right there at the Patriot Academy campus and gives people a chance to come and visit and see what all's happening there. I had mentioned, of course, Friday, we did a program specifically about what was happening with regard to the Patriot Cottages right next to our main campus. And thank you, thank you. I don't know how to thank this audience enough. So many people reached out, several actually sponsored cottages, which is a significant lift. That's a $100,000 donation. You do get to name the cottage after whichever Founding Father you choose, which is kind of cool. But also, a lot of you sent in different amounts, whatever you could to help with this very, very important effort. And we are getting really, really close. We've got, I think, eight or nine more cottages to go. And depending on the smaller donations, what they add up to, we may not even need to sponsor all of those cottages. But I just wanted to give you an update ever since the program aired on Friday, just over the weekend. So many people stepped forward. So thank you for that, PatriotAcademy.com. Anybody else that wants to help with that. But also wanted to just give you a taste of what you're investing in, getting to hear from a couple of our speakers for the Patriot Academy Leadership Congress, and maybe we'll share some of the interviews with some of students as well. It's been really cool to watch the debates, see them sharpening each other, and see how they've responded to all the amazing speakers, including David and Tim and so many other people that came in from across the country. But we sure appreciate you listening. You've been listening to The WallBuilders Show.