When A Free Nation Drifts - with Pastor Rob McCoy

A country can look stable right up until it isn’t. South Korea, once a model of post-war recovery and a powerhouse of Christian growth in Asia, is now wrestling with rising pressure on churches, growing ideological control, and the quiet erosion of religious liberty. That’s why we sit down with Pastor Rob McCoy for a story that feels uncomfortably familiar, especially for anyone who remembers how fast government “emergency” rules can become a new normal.

Rob walks us through his relationship with Pastor Sohn (you may hear the name said as Pastor Soan), the pastor of a large church in Busan who kept his doors open during COVID lockdowns and paid a severe price. We talk about raids, targeted enforcement, lack of due process, solitary confinement, and why international attention matters when a government decides to make an example out of a Christian leader. Rob also shares what it takes to rally support, keep a promise to a friend, and use public advocacy and diplomacy to protect someone facing re-arrest.

From there, we zoom out to the bigger forces at work: how universities, media narratives, and political apathy can shift a nation’s direction; why the post World War II world originally organized to resist communism; and how foreign influence and border policies can change elections and values without a single bullet fired. We also discuss the Tytler cycle, the danger of the church stepping out of the public square, and why America’s role in defending global religious freedom still matters to believers everywhere.

If you care about religious freedom, constitutional rights, and the future of the church in the public square, share this conversation, subscribe, and leave a review so more people can find it. What’s the clearest warning sign you think Americans are missing right now?

Transcript

Rick Green [00:00:07] This is the intersection of faith and culture. Thanks for joining us today on The WallBuilders Show. Rick Green here with David Barton and Tim Barton. Websites are wallbuilders.com and wallbuilders.show. If you've missed any shows recently, go to wallbuilders.show, that's also the place to share the program. We really appreciate all you folks out there that are force multipliers, sending it to your friends and families. Maybe even, you know, take the link and post it on your social media channels. Great way to let other people know about the truth that we talk about here. Always taking on hot topics of the day from a biblical, historical, and constitutional perspective. And people need that today. So, you got to cut through all the noise out there and find truth. So be sure and share the WallBuilders Show with them. And then wallbuilders.com for everything else, including some really cool swag for the 250th. So, make sure you get your coffee mug shirts, all that good stuff, but then just the educational materials and things that are available and events coming up, pastors, briefings, all kinds of great things, wallbuilders.com to find out more. David, Tim, we got our good friend Rob McCoy coming on later going to be talking about religious liberty not just here in the U.S., but in South Korea. Actually, a pretty powerful story he's going to be sharing with us, but it's a good reminder and I hope people really listen today. This will be a great reminder of how precious freedom is and how rare religious liberty is and the ability to not have the government micromanaging everything in your life, including when you open your church. So, it's going feel a little bit like, you know, 2020 is back as we hear some of these stories of what's happened in South Korean, but we're really looking to having Rob McCoy with us a little later. 

David Barton [00:01:33] Yeah, you know it's a really interesting thing that's going on now in the nation, is we were talking even last week about the fact that now that Trump has cut out a lot of the funding to other nations that went really in social things, that those other nations have been having much more conservative elections now that we've cut out a lot the funding that went through USAID. And so, you're seeing nations of Venezuela, I mean the president of Venezuela was just giving a sermon and it sounded like a Bible, I don't mean a preacher, because a lot of times, I hate to say, be careful how I say this, a lot preachers are not very well-grounded in the thoughts of God in government. But this new president of Argentina is, and he was going through biblically talking about government, and he sounded like someone that was teaching, I donno, through Patriot Academy or something else. It was really, really cool. So, we have that, but on the other side, you have South Korea, who's been a, man, been an ally for a long time, of course they were real dependent in the Korean War. And right after World War II, America went in and tried to save them from communism and got communism kind of isolated and held North, but they've been to the South, but I've been watching the last several years and they've come into open borders, they've started being like progressives in America and they're inviting everybody to come in and they're letting the people that come in vote in the South Korean elections. So they're being flooded with people who don't agree with their values. And I've just watched South Korea turn in a really bad direction in the last several years and what Rob's seeing there, it's pretty amazing. 

Tim Barton [00:03:08] Now Dad remind me real quick. When we talk about the Korean War even back up at the U.N. The U.N. was formed to try to not just like stop war it was, wasn't it focused on something like an ideological bent of nations a certain way? What was the U.N. designed to try and stop the growth and expansion of? 

David Barton [00:03:30] Yeah, I think it was something called Communism. Does that seem a little familiar?

Tim Barton [00:03:33] Oh, okay. So, the UN is tasked coming a group of nations coming together saying we don't want communism, which is also part of why America gets involved in the Korean War because communism is infiltrating into Korea and there were Koreans saying, hey, help us. Is it, it's just interesting that literally part of the origins of the UN that the obviously part of reasons for America getting involved in the Korean war was to oppose communism because people used to how evil that was and unfortunately, Dad, kind of what you're alluding to. Part of what we've seen happening over in South Korea is the embracing of some of the ideology that is already destroyed most of North Korea and it's infiltrating through a lot of white honestly, not just bad ideology but through a lotta people moving into the nation. Dad, as you mentioned that some of their open border policy, I think a lot Americans forget that the reason the UN and many other things were put in place and the reason there are certain alliances and opposition, was because we had as the world we had seen what communism had done in nations. We had seen the death and the destruction communism brought to people and we recognized how evil communism was and why it needed to be opposed. This would be one of many history lessons that should be revisited to help people remember the destructive nature and power of communism. Why would you stay away from it? But, Dad, as you mentioned our friend Pastor Rob McCoy who has been someone not just sounding the alarm on some of this, but he's actually even had some time over in South Korea to see some of this firsthand. 

David Barton [00:05:13] You know, and Tim, you were mentioning the lessons that we can learn looking back in history. Another one that I think is really pertinent is South Korea, and we'll see what Rob shares on this. But South Korea several decades ago was very actively involved in governmental things there. It had become a very strong Christian nation. There was one pastor, Paul Yong-Gi Cho, he had a million people in his church, and he told the political leaders, he said, look, the ones of you that act the most biblical, that's the ones I'm gonna get behind in support. He has a million voters in his church. It was like, we need you to be biblical. And the churches in South Korea, like it has in America, is really backed out of being involved. And the big churches started saying, well, you know, that's government. We don't do government. And what's happened is that the progressives came in and now they're bringing the communists in. And as a result, they're losing their freedoms, which is the same thing we've been seeing in America in so many states. So many of the states that are now blue. They had significant Christian numbers in those states. Oh, we don't do politics. We don't get involved in that stuff. And so, they let the progressives come in and take over the schools, take over the government, and now they're very blue states. Not because the people in those states who I saw numbers this week, that in some of the very blue states that were having ballot initiatives this fall on whether men should be involved in women's sports, 56% of Democrats say that no, men should not be involved in women sports. So, there's still a lot of people in those states with the right values, but they just have been uninvolved for so long that now they've given power over. And that's a lot of what's happening in Korea as well. So the result is, and Rob will share some of the stuff that's going on there, but it's a really good microcosm of what America has been doing. And it's really good forewarning for us of what may happen if we don't wake up and get back involved and get some good leaders in. 

Rick Green [00:07:00] Pastor Rob McCoy, our special guest. Stay with us folks. We'll be right back on The WallBuilders Show. 

Rick Green [00:08:13] Thanks for staying with us our good friend Rob McCoy back with us. Pastor, love you, brother. Thanks for some time today! 

Pastor Rob McCoy [00:08:19] Love you too, Rick, and thank you for the time. This is cherished, and I'm so grateful, man. 

Rick Green [00:08:24] Well, man, we've been so just honestly enthralled and enamored with the outpouring of support for Pastor Son, the story. Enjoyed being with you on Flash Point the other night and getting caught up on what was going on. Just amazing how God is moving and setting up the right meetings, the right people, but such a travesty as far as what's happening in South Korea and we had you on a couple of months ago to talk about it. Can you give us a couple minutes just review of how this thing went down? And, and really the danger that we're in with losing South Korea to the communist and obviously specifically and personally for Pastor Son and his church. 

Pastor Rob McCoy [00:09:04] Of course. Thanks, Rick. I will. I'll bring you up to speed. So, you know, I didn't know my ear, earlobe from my elbow when it comes to Korea, but about four years ago, I was invited to come over by Mina Kim, who has set up what's called Build up Korea, which is the equivalent of Turning Point USA, but it's, uh, it was happening in South Korea, a conservative, youth movement. And it was really Christian run. It was outstanding. So, I went out there and I participated for about four years at their annual conference. And I got a chance the very first year to meet Pastor Son, who is the pastor of the largest church in Busan. And he's the only church in Korea that stayed open during COVID. And they came after him heavy, but he defied it because he knew that the church was essential and all the other religions weren't affected, just Christianity was targeted. And so... 

Rick Green [00:09:55] Wait, I gotta say Pastor Rob when I watch the clips of him the news interviews the things that happen. He's basically the South Korean Rob McCoy. I mean, come on! He's essentially, he did there what you did in Thousand Oaks and in California and for the rest of us across the country as you were doing your Fireside Chats throughout the insanity helping to educate people. He took a stand in South Korea in much the same way, you know, that you did in California. So, I could see why you guys would hit it off  

Pastor Rob McCoy [00:10:23] Well, you're gracious. The consequences for Pastor Son were far greater, but we did hit it off. I felt like, you know, we'd been separated at birth. He's 62, I'm 61, so there's a chance we could have been brothers. My dad was over in Korea, I don't know, anyways. But we just, we felt like we'd be brothers our whole life. And so, when I approached Charlie, I asked Charlie Kirk if he wanted to come to Korea and see what was happening with this conservative youth movement, and I knew he was going to say no, because he just doesn't like to leave the US, and he said yes, and I was shocked. So, we came over to Korea, and the first thing I did was introduce him to Pastor Son, who I'd told him all about. And Pastor Son, obviously, with the new administration, the previous president had been imprisoned in this new administration a socialist, China-loving, basically communist administration. The minute that they were elected into office, they came after the churches, they raided the churches and they were seeking to put Pastor Son in prison because obviously he defied the lockdown orders. And he'd also organized a five-million-person march in the five major cities in Korea against LGBT and the transgender movement and gay marriage. And so that administration was out to get him. And Pastor Son pointed out to Charlie, it looks like I'm gonna be arrested here shortly. And Charlie said, and I'll never forget it. He said, I won't make promises on behalf of my government, but I'll do everything in my power if you're arrested to get you out. And that- that promise was made four days before Charlie was murdered, and we landed in the U.S. after the Build Up Korea event, and Monday we got word that Pastor Son had been arrested. I called Charlie, and he said, you know, get the arrest warrant and all the details, and we'll feature it on the program on Thursday on my podcast. And as we know, in the memorial service, he actually called Secretary Rubio and informed him what was going on. And then we were gonna feature it on that Thursday, and of course, Monday, September 10th, an awful day. Charlie was murdered. And Pastor Son languished in prison in a 3x7 cell in solitary confinement. You know, no due process, nothing. And he just languished there for five months. And I kept a promise to a friend, went over, visited him, filled the pulpit in his absence, protested out in front of the South Korean Supreme Court and with pastors who were brave enough to stand in defiance of that administration and of course, the Vice President commented to the Prime Minister of South Korea when he came here to visit, and it took that simple effort, and Pastor Son was released. Well, when I was back visiting and celebrating his release in South Korea, I was informed that they were going to put him back in prison in September, and I said, Pastor Son, come on out to the U.S. and let's travel around and get word out about this and try to keep you out of prison. And my goal was to get a meeting with the President with President Trump and a picture with Pastor Son. And that's the whole point. And well, we just found out that's been secured and we're gonna meet Friday at 2 p.m. So that's exciting. 

Rick Green [00:13:28] Oh, wow, man, that, of course, that speaks volumes and is as good a diplomatic move that you could make to have a picture like that. And, and also getting to show pastor Son around DC and see some of those things. Rob, I know, I think I've heard you say this, but I know I've felt it you're, you're basically helping Charlie keep the promise. I mean, that's literally what you're living out right now. 

Pastor Rob McCoy [00:13:54] Yeah, I mean, you know, I miss him and you know it's the best I can do is to honor the promise my friend made and I know Charlie would have done this. And you know to President Trump's credit, the man's busier than a one-armed wallpaper hanger and for him to take time, he's the one that got the Chinese pastor released from prison. I know this is dear to the President's heart. I want to just say kudos to Paula White and Erika Kirk, my son, Mikey, making calls. You know, the President is, no one's done more for religious freedom worldwide than President Trump. And I love what Pastor Son said. He said, Rob, you, know, I had America to come to, but if America falls to what Korea is facing, where will anyone go? And Korea has the largest Christian population of any nation in Asia, a third of their population of 59 million is Christian, and overnight! I mean, this nation was founded by American Christian missionaries, half of their founders were educated by these Christian missionaries. They came to the U.S. to study our republic, our Constitution, our Declaration of Independence, and they've rewritten their history. They've removed the history of their Founders. And China now, Chinese don't require a visa to come into the country anymore, and they can buy property, and they can vote after anywhere, depending on the province, from three months to four years. They're turning the country over to China without a shot being fired, and President Trump, he's wise to this, and he just, he gets it. And so I just can't thank him enough for making time in his busy schedule to take a picture with a pastor, of all things. Just precious. 

Rick Green [00:15:37] He really has. Yeah. And you're right. He has led on religious liberty around the world in a way we've never seen. And, you know, so many people thought he would be terrible on that issue. He's turned out to be the best that we've had on that issue, Rob, I know it's not necessarily the topic, but, you know, South Korea is, I mean, literally, literally right next door to one of the worst communist regimes ever, how do they not? It was such a contrast for all those years, that's 60 years now, 70 years now. I mean, how do they fall into socialism and communism after seeing such benefit of capitalism and a free enterprise system? I mean I think about us as a nation, we're kind of, you know, we spoiled, we getting soft, but for them, they've been facing the threat of communist North Korea right across the border and they're still giving into this. Well, how, how did you describe, explain that? 

Pastor Rob McCoy [00:16:30] Well, it's a total illustration of the Tytler cycle, you know, the Scottish historian who said every democracy goes from bondage to faith, faith to freedom, freedom to abundance, abundance to apathy, and then apathy back to dependence. And South Korea became a nation in 1948, and they were the poorest nation on the face of the earth. They had been enslaved by the Imperial Japanese. America defeats Japan. And Korea becomes a nation in August of '48. And then of course, Russia comes down and establishes North Korea with the Chinese. And so there's two separate nations, they're both the poorest on the earth. And then we know the Korean War establishes and then we have 36,600 US military personnel die to establish a 38th parallel. And the North gets communism and the South gets freedom. And if you look at the Korean Peninsula at night, the North is dark and the south is lit with industry. And they go from the poorest nation to the sixth wealthiest. And with that abundance comes apathy and you know, communism takes over gradually and then suddenly, similar to The Sun Also Rises with, Ernest Hemingway, it happened gradually, then suddenly. And that's, that's what's happening overnight. These folks, but, but I, I want to, I wanted to share with your listeners real briefly that the silver lining in all this is 70% of youth, 18 to 30, inspired by Charlie, are in defiance of this current administration. They see that communism is not the way and we need to back them and encourage them. And there's hope for this country. They have a negative birth rate, but these young people, they want their country back. And they want to get married early and have kids they can't afford and reestablish this Christian blessing upon their land. 

Rick Green [00:18:20] Wow, man, it's an incredible story. So thankful that you were able to connect with them and have this personal relationship, but then also, you know, to bring this warning to our country that we can absolutely go that that way as well. And so we'll be praying for your meeting on, on Friday, praying for, for favor for Pastor Son. Remind me his son's name again. I know we’ve; we've had him on FlashPoint before. 

Pastor Rob McCoy [00:18:42] Oh, so he's got two sons. They were both on the pro well, yeah. So, so Chance is his youngest son. And this is funny, Young son is the oldest son. Yeah. And, and so I have Young and Chance and then Mr. Mrs. Son, uh, with me. So we're taking care of the four of them and we've been going across the country and gratitude and thanks to pastors across the country who've, who have encouraged them and blessed them and supported them and the people who back this visit. It has been fruitful and I'm so grateful and I quite honestly your listeners and all the folks involved especially FlashPoint they quite honestly could be used of the Lord to save South Korea 

Rick Green [00:19:20] Wow, wow, man. Well, thank you. Please tell the whole family the WallBuilders Radio audience loves them, praying for them and we'll be praying for your meeting on Friday. Pastor Rob McCoy always in pleasure, sir Thanks for coming on. 

Pastor Rob McCoy [00:19:33] Love you Rick. Bless you brother. 

Rick Green [00:19:35] You too man. Stay with us folks. We'll we right back with David and Tim Barton 

Rick Green [00:20:45] Welcome back to the WallBuilders Show. Thanks to Rob McCoy for joining us and for just all the incredible help that he's been to Pastor Son and honestly, the nation of South Korea, back with David and Tim now. Guys, that was great, man. I mean, I enjoyed getting a little bit of that history and then of course, you know, how quickly this thing has changed. Obviously, a warning for us in the United States, but we are not just America only here, we're America first and we have allies around the world that we care about and clearly our brothers and sisters in Christ in South Korea that are facing some serious threats here. So really excited about President Trump being willing to see Rob, and I'm just thinking that's the best diplomatic message that he could send to South Korea with regard to this issue. 

David Barton [00:21:30] Yeah well you know the Bible says no man lives and dies unto himself. You can't be an isolationist and be biblical. You're involved with others. We can't be in isolation and say hey this is in Korea, it doesn't affect us, we're not going to do anything with it. That's not possible, especially when the Bible says to remember your brethren in bonds across the world. And so, with Pastor Son, I mean being in jail simply because of having those what used to be very American, very western beliefs, very biblical beliefs for sure. And now that government has flipped in such a direction that it takes President Trump's influence, which still is a significant influence in South Korea, it takes his influence to be able to get that kind of change made. Now, you know, there's no guarantee that Pastor Son's not gonna be back in prison when he gets back to South Korea. Except I think South Korea does not wanna make Trump mad at this point. That would be a really stupid political blunder and I think they recognize that. So hopefully with him meeting with President Trump that is going to put some degree of insulation around him that will keep him safe when he gets home. But if they do not get South Korea to and by the way, just like America they lost their universities, progressive came into their universities, Church became uninvolved, progressives then got into government and they're there the microcosm what's been going on in America and they can turn it around as well, but they need to. But it is so good that that you've had individuals and right around the President step up to them say hey Mr. President you really need to look at this and do something with it. And that's influence that's used well, particularly to help the Christian church in in Korea find freedom again. 

Tim Barton [00:23:11] Well Dad, one of the things we've talked about, it's interesting, and Rick, you might want to add in on this and chime in too, is great. But we've seen the Trump Administration in so many ways already take actions to promote and defend religious freedom and to remove funding in ways and places that attack certain Christian ideals, beliefs, or things that would undermine some of those values. So I mean, Dad, you kind of mentioned the incredible thing that this is an opportunity that could bolster some of that religious liberty and freedom over in South Korea, but it seems to line up with what a lot of Christians have missed or ignored or denied the reality that this Trump Administration has been far more vocal and active in promoting and defending religious freedom, arguably, and this is where you guys can chime in, arguably than any presidency in our lifetime. And part of that might be because we've never seen this level of hostility against Christianity since maybe when you have President Obama and Biden and some of their officials and some their political appointments that have become much more hostile. But this, to me again, is just one of the encouraging things from the Trump administration, reiterating the fact that they have been the most pro-religious freedom and pro-Christian and biblical values of any presidential administration we've seen in our lifetimes. What do you guys think? 

David Barton [00:24:41] Well, Tim, you said arguably, so I'm going to argue with you on it. I think there was another administration in our lifetime that was very, very good, almost equally good on religious liberty, and that was George W. Bush. However, the enemy was very different back then. You actually had Democrats back then who were not yet progressive. They were still pro-life. They were still pro family, pro marriage. So, while he did a ton for religious faith across the world and in America at that time, he was fighting a very enemy. I think Trump has an enemy that is... I don't want to miss say this, but it's, it's kind of, I mean, Bush, I appreciate so much what George W did, but compared to Trump, it was kind of the minor leagues. Not that he was a minor league president, but the enemy he was facing was more like a minor league, uh, opponent than a major league opponent now, which is what Trump is facing. So, I agree with you that Trump has done more. I think that George W Bush did a ton, but the, the, the stakes weren't as high then as they are now. So it is quite remarkable to see Trump weigh in all across the world against really vicious enemies, very aggressive enemies, enemies we've never seen in our lifetime, quite frankly. 

Rick Green [00:25:50] And just being smart about how to do the diplomacy and how to send a signal like he's going to do with this, you know, being, being willing to meet with Pastor Son on, Friday. And once again, one of those guys that, you know, a lot of our fellow Christians and, and pastors and such that, that still to this day have Trump Derangement Syndrome. I hope that they see how much he's doing for Christians around the world, how much he's stepping in and what a difference it's made also for religious liberty here in the U S and my goodness, the prosecutions, even from our own DOJ being stopped and now, you know, making things right with these pro-life activists and just so many things we could point to. But super, super thankful, great opportunity to be grateful for the President that we have and then making sure that we do everything we can for the remainder of this presidency and hopefully the next one as well to help our brothers and sisters around the world. Thanks so much for listening today. You've been listening to The WallBuilders Show.