the HRD talks

Sharon Frost, Global People Director

• Actons Solicitors • Season 2 • Episode 9

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In this episode of the HRD Talks podcast, host Nic Elliott interviews Sharon Frost, Global People Director, whose career spans retail, entertainment, education, marketing, and health sciences.

Sharon shares her journey from finance to HR, revealing how she’s led global teams, navigated private equity-backed growth, and doubled headcount during the pandemic - all while keeping people at the heart of business strategy.

She discusses the importance of commercial thinking in HR, drawing on her finance background and cross-sector experience. Sharon explores the value of union engagement, the challenges of working with private equity, and the need for HR to act as a strategic business partner - not just a support function. She also reflects on the evolving role of middle managers, the impact of AI on HR efficiency, and the importance of treating employees like adults to build trust and accountability.

Leadership, performance conversations, and generational expectations are central themes throughout the episode. Sharon explains how HR can empower managers to have meaningful conversations, and why avoiding feedback - positive or negative - creates a culture of silence. She also shares her views on ESG, employee well-being, and the future of HR as a commercially driven, people-focused discipline.

Sharon offers bold, practical advice for HR professionals ready to lead with confidence and commercial clarity.

We hope you enjoy this episode!


Supplier shout-outs:  Gallagher

Sharon’s LinkedIn: Sharon Frost | LinkedIn

Nic’s LinkedIn: Nic Elliott | LinkedIn

The HRD Talks is brought to you by Actons. For more information on our podcast please visit our website.

Nic Elliott:

Welcome to this episode of the HRD Talks podcast where we talk with HR directors and people directors about their journey into HR, get their insights into current trends in the world of work, and take their advice on the future of HR and how HR professionals can deliver value and progress their careers. And today I'm very excited to welcome Sharon Frost. Sharon's an we were talking about this earlier, an In Betweener. Now I'm gonna leave Sharon to um explain that one for us. But thank you for joining me.

Sharon Frost:

Great to be here, Nick.

Nic Elliott:

Great. And if you want to set the scene in terms of you and your background, your career into HR, that's always a good place to start, and then we'll get into some of the main issues that we've got to discuss.

Sharon Frost:

Okay, so um went to university thinking I would be a finance person.

Nic Elliott:

Okay.

Sharon Frost:

Um, but it was a business degree and modular-based, and absolutely loved HR. Uh, you know, there are a number of ways that that you can get to the answer being four, of course, but with HR, you can look at two seemingly identical, you know, employee relations cases and then end up through the process with quite different outcomes.

Nic Elliott:

Yep.

Sharon Frost:

And I just loved that that whole process, the amount that you have to learn to be able to practice HR, and you know, the open-mindedness that you have to have to be able to do it well and thoroughly as well. So I finished my degree and joined the Sainsbury's group.

Nic Elliott:

Yep.

Sharon Frost:

I was a non-food graduate trainee, and what I learned very quickly is I enjoy being very busy and um you know keeping active and being in the thick of things, and the non-food side was a little bit more sedate.

Nic Elliott:

Yep.

Sharon Frost:

So um quite quickly I was able to work on the food side on a Friday, busiest day of the week. And interestingly, having got into HR, my finance knowledge um also projected me out and from my management trainee scheme because um they looked at people that had got some finance experience or knowledge to support a stock loss project. On day one, earning £14,000 as a graduate trainee, I found £16,000 for the business, which was a dairy milk order. Um but then on. Did they share any of that with you? No, no. Unfortunately, uh, where most of the stock loss project was was on the fish counter. So I spent about three or four months stinking a fish, helping people. It was when um they were changing from pounds to kilos in terms of measurements. Okay. Lots of stock loss issues, so yeah, I didn't smell particularly well. Um, but it meant that I was able to choose where I had a substantive role from my graduate trainee scheme, and of course, chose to work in a what was called personnel department then.

Nic Elliott:

Yep.

Sharon Frost:

Um, started in recruitment and in a Southeast London store that was opening Sundays and 24-hour trading. So I really cut my teeth in recruitment.

Nic Elliott:

Yeah, yeah.

Sharon Frost:

I also um sort of created that sort of ongoing love of learning and um felt really proud of myself and on reflection realised it wasn't quite the best negotiation. Um, I ended up agreeing to have Wednesdays off and work every single Saturday so that I could study my CIPD, which I did. I also went on another project and implemented an HRIS around um some of the stores, and again, showing my age, it was moving from DOS to Windows, so had to train some people in how to use a mouse because they were picking it up and firing it at the screen. So that was an interesting intro in into HR. But because I was studying as well, I was sort of early in my career with a sort of checklist of things I wanted to achieve. Um and there were some things that I just wouldn't simply be able to achieve continuing to work for Sainsbury's. So I moved to a very exciting organization, the Entertainment Network, which was a distribution company, entertainment distribution, and it was a joint venture between Sony Music and Warner Music, so fiercely competing, you know, for the number one slot, but we were putting their products in the same box, delivering it to you know stores, etc. Interesting. But the reason I'd moved there principally was because they had union recognition. So I cut my teeth with pay bargaining recognition agreement with the TGWU, and also experienced the first time of really thinking about company culture. So it had been the Sony site, but Warner staff had uh relocated, and then we were obviously recruiting people like me, new and fresh into the organization. So, really looking at things like policies and processes and just the way we communicated in a new culture and establishing um all of that, which was you know fantastic fantastic foundations for you know the way that we communicate and engage with people still today. I left there after um having my son and I joined a startup. And I remember walking back down the corridor, having sat at my desk on day one to my boss and saying, Reese, there's actually nothing on my laptop. There was no Word, Excel, PowerPoint docs, not one email. No, Sharon, this is a startup. Um, so literally ground zero, and I spent 11 years with Cognita, an education business that bought private schools and created that sort of management oversight. Um, it was also private equity backed as well. And when I left 11 years later, we had two private equity firms actually, but we had over 70 schools across seven countries in three continents. So a massive learning experience there. Um, you know, I was a standalone HR person at first and then developed an international HR team, as I say, across three different continents. So brilliant experience. Um left there and joined a company called Adair International, a marketing services company. Um, 90 odd percent of what they did was all of the advertising and print that you see for Coca-Cola. So I got up close and personal with some of the key people in the Coca-Cola HR team so that I could really, you know, learn and understand one, how we could support our people supporting them, but also get some best practice from a you know well-established great organisation such as Coca-Cola. Went back into sort of education services, um, supporting my previous group CEO who'd become chairman of Gateway Education, and really looked at things from a kind of setting up compliance. So that organisation is student guardianship for Chinese students that are brought into the UK to do their A levels and then go on to UK universities. So we employed Chinese nationals so that they could speak in their mother tongue language to support the students, which obviously meant a lot of the business was happening in China and making sure that what happened in China was, you know, digestible, if not legally compliant, in the UK as well. Um, and obviously had the experience of safeguarding from my time at Cognita to make sure that we were supporting in that respect as well. And then more recently, um, I've been at a company called Oxopharmagenesis, health science communicators, um, researchers. It was founder-led when I joined about 22 years old and 250 employees, mainly based in the UK but with a US presence. And it was a health pandemic COVID. So we doubled in size in two years, which was a bit of a shock to the system for the business. But I think my knowledge and expertise across different sectors and different ownership structures really supported us growing in that quite ambiguous time. No one was prepared for what COVID might entail, and we were doubling in size in just a two-year period at the same time. So, again, quite different learning experiences there. And now I am currently an in-betweener. Yes.

Nic Elliott:

So I liked that phrase when you described that to me. It sounds cool.

Sharon Frost:

Yeah, so um, who knows what the next role may be, but um absolutely has to, you know, include as much opportunity for me to grow and learn and continue to be curious as the value that I can add to a business from a sort of HRN, more commercial perspective.

Nic Elliott:

Yeah, absolutely. Fabulous. Well, and an incredibly kind of diverse range of sectors that you've worked in and all that kind of thing. The other thing that intrigues me is well, there's a couple of things actually. We'll talk about the kind of business finance background that you have and how commerciality is important and HR and that kind of thing. But I also think I heard you right in saying that you deliberately went to work with unions. Yes. Tell me about that, because most HR people, oh, I don't know, maybe some HR people might try and avoid that as opposed to engage with it. So why was that? How did you find it?

Sharon Frost:

I mean, in its simplest terms, I think it was literally, you know, an aspect I'd covered on the CIPD and thought, well, how can I get some experience? But actually, as I sit here today, you know, I experienced working with unions in a non-formal way, um, no recognition agreement, when I was at Cognita headteacher and a number of, you know, teaching unions as well. And I think that, you know, in general, they keep you on your toes. They're holding you to account for what you say you will do, your policies and your processes and consistency from the last time that you may have met with them and discussed something, etc. And so I've I've actually always found it, you know, almost like looking in a mirror, you know, holding the mirror up to yourself and a positive experience. I'd say that likewise about having worked with private equity-backed companies as well. There's a number of organisations that think, oh, steer clear, but actually, you know, again, I think, you know, private equity organizations are looking at the long-term sustainability of a business, not just this year's numbers. So I think, you know, I've learned that doing things right is the right thing to do.

Nic Elliott:

Yes, yes. And actually, if that's a push to good performance or high performance, because that keeps everybody happy, then that might well be a positive too, mightn't it? So yeah, no, that makes sense. That makes sense. And then in terms of what so we we decided that we were maybe going to focus this podcast more on kind of commerciality in HR rather than topics of the day, because well, it kind of is a topic of the day for a start. And we talked briefly earlier about the Times article that came out recently giving HR quite a hard time, um, almost questioning why they exist, suggesting that they're not commercial, that they don't add business value. And I appreciate you haven't had opportunity to read that, but you get the gist. Yeah. Um having chatted, you know, through some of this stuff with you, it's clear that that is an important focus for you, not just because of your background, because you see the value that HR can deliver. Do you want to just talk through some of the kind of key things for you that you think are important for HR to kind of be on top of and to push in an organization that is maybe beyond the HR stuff or you know the commercial side of HR?

Sharon Frost:

Yeah, I mean, I think, as I say, I started out thinking I was going to be in finance doing a business degree. HR's part of business, and I don't think I've ever lost sight of that. I'm also a you know numbers-driven person naturally. So it's not difficult for me to think about things in quite a commercial way. But ultimately, we're there to either educate kids or you know, turn science into something that people can understand in layman's terms, or you know, help people feed their families. And in order to do those things, the business needs to be here tomorrow, next month, next year. Um, how we achieve that through our people is where HR can help. But ultimately, I'm not forgetting why we're here. So it's making sure that you're always marrying the the how and the why to ensure that there's that sort of marriage, if you like, between the two. But I think even at a more junior level, you're needing to have that more holistic business conversation now than maybe, you know, I did when I started out 30 years ago. Yeah. Um, and there is definitely more evolution uh in the time that I've been in HR where, you know, I mean, AI is topic of the moment, isn't it? But you know, we've been talking about data and you know, different technologies before we've started now talking about, you know, generative AI. So, you know, decisions have been made based on having to look at numbers because of affordability in a budget, and then looking at efficiencies by maybe bringing in, you know, an applicant tracking system or an HRIS. And now looking at how AI can support efficiencies so that we're not, you know, rewriting letters and churning things out that something else can do in a you know half the time. And I think being able to lead by example in a function that might otherwise be classed as a cost centre to a business is vitally important to ensure that we can continue to invest in the other things that really help our people be the best version of themselves and ultimately be more productive as a result of that.

Nic Elliott:

So, why do you think it seems in some quarters at least there's a negative perception of the profession?

Sharon Frost:

I mean, I've only really worked in HR for the majority of my career. I imagine it's the same across all functions. There are great HR professionals and there are others at the other end of the s the spectrum. And I would imagine that would be the same in finance, in marketing, in IT, etc. I think that the impact and the mindset that I have around making a difference through people for the business is maybe not as consistent. Um, but there are some excellent HR practitioners out there, and I think one of the discussions I had an event I attended yesterday is where there's a difference with HR and other functions. Someone will tend to refer to Bob and Dave in finance, but they seem to call people that work in HR HR. There's like this kind of anonymous nature to the people that work in HR. You've also got those kind of middle managers. I I call them the jam in the jam sandwich. You know, they're neither leaders and it fully empowered, nor are they, you know, employees being able to kind of duck duck their heads. And, you know, there's a massive need to continue to invest and support middle managers. And so it's, you know, I've walked down corridors, HR told me to say this, etc. So I think it's an easy kind of you know, lob it over the fence kind of um attitude that you just it doesn't apply to some of the other functions.

Nic Elliott:

Yeah, that's interesting. So um I guess the natural follow-on question from that is what can HR do better, shall we say, to kind of change that perception and demonstrate that they're adding value and you know, and being more commercial. And I'm kind of always slightly reluctant to use that phrase, so I'm not entirely sure you know you can define it. But what what do you think of that?

Sharon Frost:

I mean, whenever I've developed a team, I I kind of use the analogy of of running a relay race. Our job at the beginning is you know, almost to create the baton and to really explain what the race is about. And then when we start the race, we should be holding the vast majority of that button and running with it. And as we approach someone, you know, there's a there's a kind of they're holding on, maybe 20%. And the next time it's 50-50, and then it switches, um, and then ultimately we become a phone a friend. It's our job to equip managers who are fundamentally operational with the expertise to be able to have, you know, deep and meaningful, decent conversations with their people that are not the same because people are not the same. You know, it might be the same topic. It goes back to why I'm in HR originally. Two things that look really similar can end up with very different outcomes. We need to be explaining that to a line manager, it's not the same conversation for your six direct reports for their PDRs because their performance has been different and the tasks you've given them throughout the year have been different.

Nic Elliott:

And they're all different people.

Sharon Frost:

Exactly. Yeah. So I I think that's a part, but I think HR also has to hold the mirror up and say, well, it, you know, it's not just the nice well-being conversations or, you know, the you know, supporting someone through maternity or or what have you. You know, if we're business partners, then we need to be thinking about the whole business and you know, either pitching up with someone from marketing, someone from finance, or certainly making sure that it's a very holistic conversation when we're discussing, you know, what is your pl people plan for the next 12 months. And I think some of that can be lack lacking because people just get into the throes of today.

Nic Elliott:

Yeah.

Sharon Frost:

Um, so just opening that up and really thinking about, you know, at least a year, even at those quite operational levels.

Nic Elliott:

And I guess also being prepared to deal with the difficult conversations and the slightly less pleasant, less positive stuff too, isn't it? In terms of, well, we're gonna have to manage this underperformer or let this person go or run this restructure and that kind of thing.

Sharon Frost:

Yeah, and you know, if it's a difficult conversation that a manager needs to have with someone, and then it then, you know, there's the joy of coaching, well, mentoring maybe first, andor coaching. Um, but yes, of course, HR has to stand back sometimes and actually deliver some some quite complex restructures.

Nic Elliott:

Yeah.

Sharon Frost:

And I can see how that can be confusing for people in the organization. You know, one minute I might have been launching a we're gonna give everybody a well-being day, or we're now introducing birthday off, and then you know, I'm giving out sweeties, and the next minute I'm announcing that I've just done a restructure and halved my own function. Um, so there's an element of how can they like really trust who you are when you show up today versus who you were yesterday? Yeah. I think that can be a confusing factor about HR professionals as well.

Nic Elliott:

That makes sense. Um and then um managers, you you touched on, I think I'm talking to clients a lot at the minute about um the importance of training managers too, partly because of what's coming in the employment rights bill and the fact that it's gonna be even more difficult to manage people or or the risks of getting it wrong, I suppose, um are increasing with unfair dismissal day one rights and all that kind of thing. How important do you think that is? And I know it's always been important, but it it does I agree with you feel more important these days to properly equip managers, and how do we best do that?

Sharon Frost:

I mean, I think there are two aspects to day one rights that that really affect managers. One is having no doubt, or the doubt is opportunity when you're recruiting someone. Don't recruit someone that because you just need someone. You know, recruit someone that you think is going to be here for two or three years, um, that's gonna grow in the organization, that gets, you know, you feel has got the knowledge and the skills, or if there are some gaps, they've got the right kind of attitude and personality to fit in with the team. So that's the first hurdle for them to get over. And then the second and probably more important one is as soon as you've got that niggling doubt, start talking to your HR professional so that you can get mentored or coached and have those conversations. They don't have to be difficult conversations if you do them regularly. One of the things I implemented with my team was in our weekly catch-ups, talking about performance. You know, last week you were absolutely fantastic in that meeting, and I want you to recognize, you know, the impact that you had by doing X, but then next week I might be saying there's just something here that wasn't quite right. But if you're if if you're both always expecting to talk about performance, it doesn't feel like this sort of grenade flying into the middle of the room.

Nic Elliott:

Yeah.

Sharon Frost:

And I think when people avoid having performance conversations, what I've noticed more recently is not only are they not having the difficult ones, they're actually not having the positive ones either. And so when they have to have a constructive conversation, because you know there's some issues that we need to discuss, it just feels so alien to everybody that it becomes this mountain when it could have been a little molehill, really.

Nic Elliott:

Yeah, and they're leaving a void most of the time. Yeah, absolutely. The other thing that um there's a lot of talk about at the minute is different generations in the workforce and a a kind of a new generation coming through that maybe have different expectations and and that kind of thing. Do you have thoughts on whether that's actually a thing? Uh, whether we need to adapt. I know we've talked about treating different people differently because they are different people, but is that really a thing?

Sharon Frost:

Do you know? I'm not sure it is generational, because if it is, I reckon I'm only in my twenties and I'm a Gen Z myself. Um what I perceived from Gen Z a few years ago was they want to know why. Actually, I've always wanted to know why. And you know, I I've spent quite a lot of time in my career in the different organizations I've been saying to the C-suite or the exec team, last time I looked, we employed adults. So why don't we talk to them like adults and treat them like adults? Because do you know what? If we do, they'll probably act like adults. You start treating them like children, and we're ending up managing a nursery right here. Um the difference though that I have seen, and I had some really good discussions with some of my own team, um, was around, and I'm not sure that they're wrong and I'm right in terms of past behaviours. So I've always avoided as much as possible taking time off. Like it felt like I shouldn't be off sick. You know, to the point that probably I've pitched up at work when I shouldn't on occasion. And what does that mean as a leader in terms of, you know, how am I demonstrating, you know, well-being, etc., as an HR professional? The next generation do they just see all of their benefits. And so, you know, if you're gonna offer someone a month's full pay, sick pay, they're probably gonna use some or possibly all of it because there isn't a taboo, it's just one of many benefits that we're offering. So I see some differences there.

Nic Elliott:

Yep.

Sharon Frost:

Um, and I know I hear people talking about, you know, nine to or fivers. I haven't seen that. If people love what they do, they're not clockwatching. Um, but if they're being expected to do more and more and more day in, day out, they're probably gonna put their hands up and say, this doesn't feel right. And actually, they're not wrong, are they?

Nic Elliott:

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And what about um I guess the other one that often gets weaved in um with that is sort of sustainability, eco, CSR type stuff. Still important for HR to be alive to?

Sharon Frost:

Uh absolutely. I mean, interestingly, my son's about to turn 21 and doesn't seem so bothered about it yet. But and again, I don't think it's particularly generational because we did quite a lot of good stuff at Oxford Pharma Genesis um around the ESG um arena, and you know, people of all ages were were were were contributing. I think that Generation Z just voice it more openly. And definitely I've seen through recruitment processes people asking more openly around, you know, what do you do with your profit? How much do we spend with how many charities to give back? You know, are there any other activities that we can get involved in to, you know, give back and be part of the local community? Again, great stuff.

Nic Elliott:

Brilliant. So one of the other things that we um like to do on the podcast is ask our guests for some advice for the HR profession. Uh that I think the section before has an incredible amount of um value and advice for the HR profession already. But let's say um someone's considering moving into HR, what would your advice to them be?

Sharon Frost:

So I'm glad it's not called personnel anymore because I think people think it's about a person or people, and of course it is. But my advice to someone coming into the profession is it's part of a business, and so remember that it's contributing to whatever that company is, you know, delivering or serving, etc. And you know, your job in HR is to ensure that people are as productive as possible to deliver that product or service, and that means you know, making it a positive environment and culture and listening and engaging and all those wonderful things. But it is a business, it's part of a business. In terms of for more senior, um, particularly someone moving up in seniority, be externally referenced too. As you get more senior, you know, the job gets bigger and it can kind of suck you in to just thinking about the job and focusing on your team and you know, keeping the other executives happy, etc. But you really do need to still keep abreast of you know what's going on in the big wide world, um, what other people are saying and doing, you know, having people that that you can lean on because it's lonely at the top. Um and really, you know, continuing to be curious about your craft. It has I'm still so excited about being in HR, and I've learnt so much, and it's changed so much in the last 30 years. I couldn't be more excited about you know what the future might bring.

Nic Elliott:

And it sounds like it's gonna change more, isn't it? Whatever way we look at it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Brilliant. And um, one of the other things we do is something called the supplier shout-out. Uh so this is a supplier or some sort of provider or chat, even a charity that you've you know worked with in the past that you wanted to kind of showcase as part of this, and we'll give them a little sh shout-out in the the notes for the podcast and and so on.

Sharon Frost:

So, yeah, I do. I previously loved um my benefits intermediary so much that I moved them to three other companies as I moved.

Nic Elliott:

Sounds like a good recommendation.

Sharon Frost:

Well, no, so the recommendation is someone else. When I joined Oxford Pharma Genesis, um they used Gallagher's for benefit intermediary and uh pension advice, etc. And it's the first time that I thought I'm not bringing the other company with me.

Nic Elliott:

Twist of the tail.

Sharon Frost:

Yeah. Um I I mean Andrew Drake was was was my kind of key person. He's he's left me and gone across the pond to the US now. But like that, Alastair Dornen made sure I was not sort of left, you know, loose. And and to the point that's still in contact with me as an in-betweener as well. Every single person that I've ever engaged with at Gallagher's has been top talent.

Nic Elliott:

Brilliant.

Sharon Frost:

To the point that I remember having lunch with Andrew once, and I said, I don't know who reports to who. And he said, Oh, let me fix that. And I said, Don't, because you don't need to, because every single person I speak to knows more than I could ever imagine that that they need to know about their subject matter. Absolutely brilliant. And and also, you know, it's a large organization to be be doing a shout out about, but so pragmatic, you know, I'll ask for some support beyond benefits intermediary, the leadership support or facilitating a HR strategy event, whatever it might be. And they may give me a price and I'll go and they'll say, Okay, what can you afford? Or, you know, how can we and they're just so pragmatic to make it work for the organization that's in front of them. You know, they can deal with huge organizations and tiny organizations, and they will absolutely adapt.

Nic Elliott:

Yep. Well, that's absolutely one of the best uh and resounding uh supplier shout outs we've ever had. So that's that's fantastic. Um I think we're our time is pretty much up um together. Were there any kind of Final thoughts on anything that we've talked about or anything else that you you'd like to share?

Sharon Frost:

Uh I just want to do a big shout out to all those HR professionals that have read that article to say stick with what you're doing, um keep being curious, and um we've got each other's backs.

Nic Elliott:

I love that. That's a brilliant way to finish. Sharon, thank you so much for taking the time out to have a chat with me. It's been incredibly enjoyable for me and um I'm sure will be super valuable for people. So thank you very much.

Sharon Frost:

Thank you so much, Nick. It's been fun.

Nic Elliott:

Great. Uh and the other thing I'm always reminded to say is that if people would like to review the podcast on whatever podcast platform that you listen to your podcasts on, um, give us a little star rating or whatever it might be, follow it. That would be great just to raise visibility of the podcast. Thank you very much. Thanks for listening to this episode of the HRD Talks podcast. Hopefully, you found the discussion helpful. If so, please follow us on your podcast provider to be notified of future episodes and share with friends and colleagues. For more information on the podcast, please visit actons.co.uk forward slash the HRD Talks

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