the HRD talks
Nic Elliott, HR Director & Head of employment at Actons, and one of HR Magazine’s most influential practitioners talks to HR Directors and People Directors about their journey into HR, gets their insights into current trends in the world of work and takes their advice on the future of HR and how HR professionals can deliver value and progress their careers.
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LI: The HRD Talks | Podcast
the HRD talks
Kim Knight, Deputy Chief People Officer
In this episode of the HRD Talks podcast, host Nic Elliott speaks with Kim Knight, Deputy Chief People Officer at Coventry University, about her diverse HR career, including retail, FMCG, international organisations, and higher education.
Kim shares her journey into HR, from starting at Sainsbury’s to senior HRD roles at organisations including Boots, ATS Euromaster, Northgate Vehicle Hire, and Loomis, before moving into the higher education sector. She explains why Coventry University stands out as a commercial, global education group and reflects on the significant challenges currently facing the sector.
The conversation explores the growing impact of AI on productivity and performance, the importance of curiosity and adaptability, and why skills, rather than job titles, will be critical for the future of work. Kim also shares her perspective on well-being, generational expectations, and why HR reflects wider societal change rather than driving it alone.
Throughout the episode, Kim offers practical advice for HR professionals, emphasising the value of strong relationships, commercial thinking, and having the confidence to speak uncomfortable truths. She reinforces the enduring importance of HR in helping organisations navigate complexity through their people.
We hope you enjoy this episode!
The HRD Talks is brought to you by Actons. For more information on our podcast please visit our website.
So, welcome to this episode of the HRD Talks, where we talk with HR directors and people directors about their journey into HR, get their insight into current trends in the world of work, and take their advice on the future of HR and how HR professionals can deliver value and progress their careers. Today I'm very, very pleased to welcome Kim Knight, who's Deputy Chief People Officer at Coventry University. Welcome Kim.
Kim Knight:Hello.
Nic Elliott:I've been trying to get Kim on the podcast for a little while, um, mainly because other people were saying you've got to get Kim on. And I was like, I know Kim, I've I've worked with Kim for a while. Um, it would be great to have her on, and we're finally here. So thank you so much for giving up your time and coming on.
Kim Knight:Yeah, thanks for inviting me, Nick.
Nic Elliott:Cool. So um, do you want to explain a bit about you and who you are and what you do at Coventry?
Kim Knight:Yeah. Um, so I've been at Coventry now for just about a couple of years. Um, a new sector for me, actually, higher education, something that I had never thought about. Quite interesting to try something a bit different. And pre previous to that, I worked at mainly in retail, FMCG retail. Um, so yeah, very different change for me. But actually, when you work with people, there are similarities wherever you are, as I have found out quite quickly.
Nic Elliott:Yep. And take us through your kind of journey into HR. Did you start in HR to begin with? Was it something different? How did that go?
Kim Knight:Yeah, so I didn't actually know what HR was, I'm gonna be really honest. Um, I don't remember ever being spoken to about in those days personnel at school. Um, so I um fell into personnel at Sainsbury's and from there I was able to do my CIPD and progress from there. So I started at Sainsbury's and worked my way up, um, did various personnel manager um positions in store, and then went to a regional position and um was there for a good 10 years or so. And then obviously it is time to move on, and I went to a company called ATS Euromaster, which is part of Mitchellin. Um, it is the the retail side, and I started off in their call centre and also looked after their shared service centre, and actually it was where I got my first HRD position. Um, not something I'd set out for, it was a nice surprise when it happened. Um, I remember thinking, what me? Um, and yes, it was me. Um so that's my first my first break, and I think you know, I look back fondly on that time. Yeah, but all good things you need to come to an end and you progress. And I went to um to boots, although not in the UK. Um I was on the international side and based in Nottingham, um, but also I spent time, um, I spent a couple of years in the US in in New York and also covered um Southeast Asia mainly. So that was a obviously a great experience, and that's where my international um HR career really developed from there. And then I came back and you know, having had that international kind of touch and being very independent, I suppose, based in the US, um, I was looking for my next opportunity and went to Northgate Vehicle Hire, um, which was a standalone kind of HR role in terms of into the board, etc.
Nic Elliott:Yep.
Kim Knight:Um, so that was a great kind of it was good to kind of take my skills somewhere else and see that I could do it. Um, and then I went to a company called Loomis, which is a payment solution business. I don't want to say cash because it's more than just cash now. Um, and that that was their first HRD role there, and it's a Swedish company, um, international, and um I really enjoyed my time there setting up the HR function. Um, and then that brings me to Coventry, which was when I decided I wanted to do something a little bit different, and I'm now at Coventry.
Nic Elliott:Yeah, so tell us more about um Coventry Uni then. What's your role involved? What what do they get up to? I appreciate they're a university, and most people will know. But my experience with universities is they tend to be a bit more complicated than you might think.
Kim Knight:Exactly, yeah, they are. And I you know, was I setting out to go into higher education? Absolutely not, and I don't think my personality type, anyone who knows me, I think was a bit surprised when they heard I was moving into that sector, if I'm honest with you. But I think Coventry is a little bit different. I don't think every university would suit someone like myself. But Coventry is quite a commercial organisation, yeah. And actually, you know, we all have a list, don't we, when we look for a new job. And Coventry did not tick on my list because I was looking for back to being, you know, an HRD in a in a company, and this is a number two role. But I think I had the good sense to understand that I was in a new sector, and actually having somebody that understood the sector was really important. So I think you know, getting that right boss that you report into. So it was the first HR reporting line I'd had, I think since my Sainsbury's days, or maybe in boots actually, I had one HR person I reported into directly. So yeah, so my it's a deputy role and essentially it looks after the whole of the HR function apart from partnering. So partnering sits under the CPO, um, and I look after all the other parts that traditionally sit under HR, which I don't need to explain because presumably HR people are listening to this podcast hopefully they understand what that means. Exactly, right?
Nic Elliott:Yeah, yeah, interesting. And and what about the university itself? Does it focus on particular areas, have a presence outside of Coventry or Absolutely, absolutely.
Kim Knight:I mean, I I think we've got more students now outside of Coventry than actually in Coventry. So we've got campuses in across the UK, um Scarborough and in London. London campus um is doing particularly well, and then we have got branded campuses in India, uh, Kazakhstan, quite a few places um internationally. So it's a very Coventry's ambition is to be a global education group. It's not just about being a university, and it's about how do you connect people when they're at college and get that kind of straight entry into if they want to go into a university setting. We also do apprentices as well, so I think Coventry is very forward-looking. I mean, there's I I'm sure people have seen the news recently about Kent and Greenwich and the super university. Well, actually, Coventry, in terms of its kind of scope and breadth in terms of its delivery, has been on that journey for a while in terms of its offering. So it's a very commercial place and I think quite different in terms of how it does things compared to to some other universities.
Nic Elliott:And Kim, obviously the sector itself has had a pretty rough time recently. That's probably a bit of an understatement. How has that kind of impacted you guys and um the people agenda?
Kim Knight:Yeah, of course, I think with some of the um changes to especially international students and their ability um to to come into the UK and also looking whether an attractive place for them to come, if they're choosing an international university to go to, has meant that we ultimately do have less students. We've got less students in the UK entering university and we have got um less international students. So the impact um is of course that um we have to be able to right-size an organisation to match the new demands. What that means to an a from an HR agenda is of course working along alongside the organisation to make sure we've got the right people in the right place. And that's you know, that's unsettling wherever you are, and it is particularly unsettling, I think, in a sector that traditionally hasn't had to, hasn't had to go through what we're all going through at the moment. So I think it's a it's a time um of kind of reflection, an enormous amount of change, not just in in terms of how we deliver um the education to people, the models that we deliver, the expansion internationally that someone like Coventry is doing. So it's changed from all angles, um, and I think that causes unrest with people, of course.
Nic Elliott:And I guess that's not limited to the education sector. Things like AI are obviously having massive kind of disruptive impact on lots of different sectors. How are you seeing that at your place?
Kim Knight:Yeah, well, I I suppose I could talk about AI on in two angles. One is it affects the teaching and it affects things with the students and how they they use AI. But I think specifically now, I think what I'm seeing in the workplace is um you're seeing those that are the early adopters and are start are curious and starting to explore, and you're seeing those that just don't know an awful lot at all. And I think working in an education sector, I sometimes get the feeling people think we're gonna just teach them all of this stuff, we're gonna sit down and show them all this new AI stuff. Um, and as I've been talking a lot now, is you've got this is not it will evolve too quickly to teach. People have got to have a curiosity to start having a look at it. So I think what we're seeing now is what I think are the not concerns for me, but I think they will impact HR is I think we will see performance starting to separate with people and you'll see output being quicker and maybe better, don't know. Yeah, question mark, with people using AI to uh help them, those that aren't using AI and managers thinking, well, how come that person has whacked out a bunch of policies for me in a couple of days and this person's taken four weeks to do something, and that and before you know it, there's gonna be performance conversations because people aren't aren't being able to do things at the same speed as each other. So I think there is still a long way to go with getting people to understand the impact of AI in the workplace. Um and I think we're gonna start seeing more and more separation, and um I think uh for me we've all got it's not just an HR responsibility, I think there's a responsibility in in terms of how we're gonna use it and how we're gonna keep people up to date with it in their own disciplines.
Nic Elliott:Yep. And then do you think one of the other areas that you know we often talk about is well-being and mental health and that kind of thing, um, and burnout, you know, is is the quite a common phrase at the minute, isn't it? Do you think AI will have an impact on that? Should it should it allow us to be more productive and not have to work quite as hard?
Kim Knight:I think other things will fill our time quite quickly. I mean, I remember when I think, you know, we started thinking email and things like that would, you know, make things quicker and and save us time. And what we're finding is we seem to fill our time, don't we? So I think other things will will take over. I mean, I think there is a a desire continually for this work-life balance. Um possibly more so now. You see now with the flexible working and the hybrid working, you're seeing people want more time, but we're also working in a world that is so fast changing and so rapid, and businesses are under such pressure um for productivity and output. I don't think AI is going to it will mean time is released to do other stuff, but I don't think it's going to give people time back to do particular stuff that they want to do outside of the workplace, particularly. I don't think so.
Nic Elliott:Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. Makes sense. Um and you're right, that kind of economic pressure to do more and to produce more or sell more or whatever it might be, um, is likely to always be there, isn't it, for a lot of organisations.
Kim Knight:It is, it is, and I think, you know, that difficult times, isn't it? And, you know, people will think, what can I do more for less? So if I need less people, I need less people. I mean, I know it's a really hard kind of message to hear. So it's about transferring those skills somewhere else. And I think that's one of our big challenges in terms of how do we think about the skills that we need in the workplace, not particularly just the jobs that we need. I think skills will be the new currency and we will need to look at that skill-based requirement. I still think we're a long way from that. I think as an HR teams, I just well, I think we're so caught up in reorganisations and other things at the moment that we're just not getting that thinking space. But skills is gonna be a massive thing. And how do we make sure people have got those skills to take us into the future? Oh, well, I'm saying the future. I think we're kind of here now.
Nic Elliott:The future is now.
Kim Knight:The future is now, yeah, I do think so.
Nic Elliott:Yeah, so so and and what's your kind of take on how you best prepare for that?
Kim Knight:Well, I think we've got to work work alongside business leaders to understand what they're trying to deliver. It's interesting because even AI, I'm just about to put an AI skills order into just the people team just to understand where people's thinking is, what their skills are, where they where they think they're at. And I think it's just about understanding the business you're in, what skills are going to be required there. And when I say skills, I don't just mean technical skills. I think they're soft skills in terms of working in ambiguity, um, working in terms of, you know, flexibly, are going to be absolutely critical. And people will say they do that now, but I still do see people who kind of want want to know all the facts, all the answers before they can do something. And I just don't think we're in a world to do that. So I think there is something about, and it isn't just I don't think, at the workplace, I think there's a responsibility in education, um, parenting, in terms of helping people navigate through um there's not a straight road somewhere, and you have to be able to flex those muscles and move accordingly.
Nic Elliott:Makes sense. And then we've talked a bit already in in a number of ways about productivity and um how HR impacts on that. It was interesting just this week there was a uh an article in one of the major newspapers um about the fact, well, essentially the author was blaming HR pretty much um for the productivity problem that we have in the UK and saying that it was kind of ruining business efficiency and productivity and even people's lives, it was quite full on. What's your kind of take on that?
Kim Knight:Well, I haven't seen the article, um, but I think I mean HR's always the the best one to blame, isn't it, when when things have to happen? Um and and you know, we can be in places where line managers sit behind HR quite comfortably. Um but I think HR, the workplace reflects what's going on in society, in my view. And there are, you know, we are in a position now in our workplace where we've got different generations in the workplace and we have got different expectations. And I'm I'm guessing the person who wrote the The Times article will be of a certain generation. I don't know, but I'm I'm gonna guess so. But the reality is, you know, if you're some generations and some people are gonna value different things, and I think HR's role is to make sure there's a workplace that people want to be part of. Some of that includes a focus on kind of well well-being, and some of that focuses on kind of career progression and things. And I think the businesses that will do best is when you've got engaged employees, regardless of what's been delivered by HR. So I think to blame HR, I think HR is just reflecting what the business requires and also what's happening more generally. I don't think it's HR's fault. HR don't put these things in without there being a demand for it. And suppliers don't, you know, put platformers together without there being a demand for things as well. So I I think it's a provocative um statement, I guess, in in the Times. Um, but I don't think it's it's right.
Nic Elliott:Yeah, and I I guess that generational difference in terms of expectations in the workplace is always interesting to me because we have probably the widest range of ages working together, you know, i in workplaces at the minute. How do you see that? Is that because a lot of people make lots of that? Other people think, well, no, they're all still people, you know, um, and actually the basic requirements of a person are you know fairly similar. Do you do you see differences there or is it not so much of a thing?
Kim Knight:I can argue it both ways depending on the mood I'm in, I think. Um so I'll try and give both of you today. I I I think sometimes it is nothing about the generation at all. I think it's about your where you are in your life, in terms of you know, if whether you're if you've got young children, whether you're in your twenties or your fifties, that's what's going to be kind of dictating what you want. But sometimes it is about certain generations are going to or certain people, I I think probably you're right, we should move away from the whole idea of just talking about generations because I think that pigeonholes people a little bit too much. But I think requirements do change. What I want now compared to what I wanted in my 20s are different. Um in my twenties, my pension was a pain in the neck. I didn't understand why I would even want to think about it now. I can't, I'm obsessed by it, that's all I can think about. Um, so I think we are all people, and I think we can all work together, but I think we do have to not make too big a deal out of it, but we have to understand it as well. And I think, especially if we've got an ageing workforce and we want to perhaps bring people into an organisation, people's learning pace may be different, but don't just pigeon it, you know, there will be people and it's nothing to do with the generation they're in, but you know, I think that there are medically we will change scientifically, we we we change, don't we, as we get older. Yeah. Um, and I think we have to just be cognizant of it, really.
Nic Elliott:Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. Um, and then one of the other things that we talk about on on the podcast is advice to the profession. Um, you've done a number of jobs, been around a little while in the world of HR. Um, in terms of you know, if you were restarting your career again or you were giving advice to someone who was at that um place, what what would your suggestion be? And you can't say don't go into HR because I've had other guests say that.
Kim Knight:No, I love HR. I I I've never regretted it um at all. I mean, I think ultimately what I would say to somebody is you've got to love what you do. Do not chase a title, do not try and just you know, I'm doing the do-nots now, aren't I? That's so typical, isn't it? Um so love what you do, be curious about it. And I think now if I'm saying to somebody, you might change your mind, you might do it for a bit, and you might want to move into something else. I don't think HR is about I love people and that's why I want to be an HR. Um, I I can honestly say, I mean, I like people, but I like people no more or less than the finance director. Um, so the the biggest thing is you know, yeah, uh going back to just do do something because you want to do it, not because you think you have an impression of what it will will be and give you. Um and then if you're if you enjoy it, you'll be good at it and you'll progress well and every day will not feel like a work day for you.
Nic Elliott:Yeah, yeah. And then what about um the top job, progression to the top job? You've obviously done a number of those kind of senior roles. Um what about people that are either new to that or looking to move into that kind of role?
Kim Knight:Again, I think for me, I never set out to be an HR director, and I think it's about being good at the job you're doing, having an eye on the future, but upping your skills, making sure you know what's going on. But I think the big thing for me is you've got to be prepared to say what you think and use your voice because you are in a very privileged position to represent the general workforce and make sure that that lens is being considered by an organisation, which means you might have to be uncomfortable with saying some uncomfortable truths. So you're gonna have things to say that people are not going to like, doesn't mean they're gonna listen, but I think you need to feel that you have had that conversation. I think for me, the relationships you have is key. So, especially as you move up, it's not about just your your technical ability. You'll have a you know, if you you'll have a good team around you, the first thing you'll do, I think, is put a great team in place. I've always got a great team of people, but what you've got to be able to do, um especially as you move on to the more senior roles, is build those relationships and be able to influence people when you need to. And ultimately, what I would say to people is you know what, your career and moving up is a it's uh it's a marathon, it's not a sprint, and you will have highs and you will have lows. And it might not be a linear line to the top, and that's okay. And actually, I think that's going to be more and more of the case. So be prepared to navigate through that and move, and actually, you can get a bit of line experience outside of HR. Do that because don't be the kind of policy police and the kind of this is what HR say kind of person. You need to speak the business language, and you might need that little bit of experience outside of HR.
Nic Elliott:And then one final thing that I was going to ask you about. Obviously, you mentioned that you'd shifted sectors into something quite new, quite different to retail. How do you how do you navigate that? Is it really that I know I know people issues are people issues, but there are differences between sectors. How have you found that? How would you kind of recommend people manage that kind of change if they're moving into a different area? Because again, lots of the recruitment stories I hear at the minute is that um employers are recruiting for sector experience only, and people are getting discounted very regularly for not having sector experience in the particular sector that employer operates, which always seems a bit short-sighted to me. But what do you think?
Kim Knight:Well I think um it is challenging depending on the sector you're moving to. I mean, something like the HE sector is very so different to what I've done before. So I think it's the spirit of what you enter into it with as well. So, you know, with a curious mind, not forgetting what you know and holding true to that, but also you need to try and learn that organisation you're going into. So I think it is possible, but of course it's possible to change sectors, of course it is. Um but it does take a little bit of time to to learn that that that that new organisation or that new sector. Um the people issues are the people issues. I mean, there's no doubt about it. Um but you do need to get the context and the history to understand why things might be done slightly different. Because every it's interesting, isn't it? Every sector we say, or every organisation has its own nuances. Um so I think as long as you're entering a sector where you think your personality type will fit. So if you're you know, if you're a if you're somebody who likes kind of rules and process, you're not going to go to some kind of I don't know, Google or something where you're kind of exactly right. So as long as you kind of know the culture, I think that for me that's the bit. It's not the sector. So I when I went to join Commentary, my big thing was what kind of culture am I joining, and who are the people I'm going to be working with, and and ultimately who is my boss. And if I think I can work with them, the sex here isn't the concern. This that that will happen because I'm working with people I can do that with, and that's absolutely stood true for me. I work with a great individual who's had patience with me, who's helped me navigate it, and I'm still, you know, I still when I see something I think you know, I have a view on, I feel quite comfortable to say that. And I don't feel stifled, and therefore that you know, then you give your best. So yeah, I think it's um know the culture and know your boss, and then the sector bit will be fine.
Nic Elliott:Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so I think we are nearing the end of our time together. Um, any kind of final words for the HR profession in in general, Kim? It's it's not not easy out there at the minute for a lot of people.
Kim Knight:No, it it isn't easy. Um, and I don't think it's easy in any in any roles at the moment. I think HR has has a really important part to play in any organisation. At the end of the day, um the the real point of difference will always be the people. You know, whether it's um people because they they're inventing the brand or making the brand or the product, people are what are the engine of any organization. And I think anybody who wants to enter the HR um profession, I think as long as they're keeping their skills up to date with what's going on with things like AI and the legislation, um, but also are um the kind of individuals that are flexible and can work with different kinds of people, I think it's a it's a it's a really good place, good place to be. I don't think HR is going anywhere for whatever reason. I mean, even when I started out in HR, HR's always had, you know, not a bad press, but there's always been a kind of this kind of slightly eye-roll-up moment about HR. But it's interesting, isn't it? Um as we know in HR, when things are really needed, let's talk COVID. You know, HR and finance were the two functions there driving and making sure the organisations were making decisions that meant that business could survive. So so don't be disheartened by what's currently happening. Um, I, you know, we're going through a phase at the moment in in in terms of business performance and and what HR is focusing on. But I think actually, with a more complex world, a more complex um demographic and mix of people working with more requirements and demands than ever, um, because you can't just be hierarchical about things. There will be an absolute place for star HR to be there working alongside people and helping businesses be the best they can.
Nic Elliott:So don't give up people. I love that. Star HR is a good way to finish, isn't it? Well, Kim, thank you so much for joining me on this episode. Um, I'm sure people will really enjoy it. Some great advice, um, some great thoughts on you know the state of the profession at the minute. Um, for those that are listening on their favourite podcast provider, please do like, follow, rate, subscribe, whatever your um provider um allows. That will help um visibility on the podcast. And Kim, thank you again. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to this episode of the HRD Talks Podcast. Hopefully, you found the discussion helpful. If so, please follow us on your podcast provider to be notified of future episodes and share with friends and colleagues. For more information on the podcast, please visit actons.co.uk forward slash the HRD Talks.
