Running Through Grief: Lisa Jackson's Journey of Healing

Join host Brian Patterson in this heartfelt episode of Brian's Run Pod as he sits down with the inspiring Lisa Jackson, author of "Running After All These Tears." Discover how Lisa turned her personal grief into a journey of healing and resilience through running.

Explore Lisa's unique relationship with her late husband, Graham, and how it fueled her passion for marathons. Learn about the iconic Comrades Marathon and its significance in South Africa. Hear Lisa's candid insights on grief, resilience, and the power of community. Discover practical tips for staying positive and choosing happiness, even in the face of adversity.

Tune in for an episode filled with emotion, inspiration, and the triumph of the human spirit.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

So you're thinking about running, but not sure how to take the first step? My name is Brian Patterson, and I'm here to help. Welcome to Brian's ROM pod. This week we have part two of my amazing chat with running author Lisa Jackson. She's just launched a new book, Running After All These Tears. And I started this part of our discussion talking about a husband who sadly passed away. I'm sure you agree with me that Lisa has so much energy and positivity. And if you haven't listened to part one, then please do go back in our catalogue. Anyway, without further ado, let's get into our chat. So how did you how did you meet him? What's the the story about that?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Oh, I've always loved to talk about him. Um husband Graham was my tutor at university. Okay. Uh he was my philosophy tutor. So I um did caught um hepatitis A at university, and I had to drop out of French intensive because that was five years of school of French condensed into one year. And because I missed lectures, I couldn't finish that course. So I just took a filler course, philosophy. I thought it would um complement my English literature degree quite well. And I signed up for Graham's tutorial. Uh and there were no prohibitions on um tutors. I mean, they were quite lowly in the picking order at university, honestly. There was no um prohibition on dating or students. Okay. And um I never said anything in philosophy because I didn't know what to say. Uh I actually found it the most hard subject, difficult subject I'd ever studied. So it's very embarrassing. I just sat there in silence, like looking at my feet, um, just couldn't follow what was going on because the topics were things like what is the meaning of meaning and what is truth, you know. It was terrible. It wasn't interesting at all. And then the topics sort of changed to topics like um, you know, the ethics of abortion or the ethics of euthanasia and suicide and things like that, which I did have quite strong views on. So I started talking in the tutorial and we carried on talking and ended up talking outside the tutorial for another three hours. And the same thing happened the second week. And um, this time my husband, well, okay, my husband, but Graham said, Why are we standing here? Let's go and have a coffee. So, one of the questions he asked me when we were drinking coffee was, Do you believe in poltergeist? I mean, that's the kind of random conversations we had. It was just great. From day one, I felt like I'd known him all my whole life. I didn't have to impress him, I didn't have to be anything I wasn't. And um, and I said, Yeah, I actually do believe in poltergeist. And at that very moment, a white plastic chair just moved right across the canteen.

SPEAKER_04 2:55

Oh, I don't believe it.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Absolutely, at that very moment. Now, of course, it was the wind blowing the door went open and the wind blew it. But I said to him, like that particular timing, I said, it's wind and poltergeist. So poltergeist is actually quite a big poltergeist theme in my book, something else for people to look forward to.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Um, and yeah, I just felt I'd known Graham my whole life. And I knew he was absolutely exceptional from the minute I met him. He had such a sense of humor, but he was also incredibly clever. Um, he was loyal, he was um steadfast, he was so supportive of me throughout my whole life because every time I wrote a book, I was still working full-time. He took over all the housework, cooked all my meals, ran my bath. Um, you know, my whole life, he just supported me and my marathon running as well. He would come, he would look after my baggage, drive me to places, and my comrades dream. I mean, that would never have happened if it wasn't for him. Because we went out on day one and I knew I had to run more or less a 60-minute 10K. Right. And I did a 70-minute 10K, and I just said, that I I I wanted to give up right then and then I said, no, I'm never gonna be fast enough to do this race. And Graham said, C C this is day one. This is your baseline. You you're only gonna get better after this. Yeah. And that those words, you know, he always knew how to speak to me and give me courage. And if he had said that, I probably would have never done it. But he told me, you can do this. And he used to come running with me, even though we were not at the same pace. He found it very difficult to run at my pace. And, you know, I declare a hill, which means I could walk, and he'd go, I don't declare a hill, I negate that hill. You know, we are still running up this little incline. So, you know, we had so much fun. Um, you know, he really helped me with Comrade's dream, particularly. So um, I was so lucky to have met him so young. I mean, I was 18 when I met him. Oh, I see. Um, started dating him when I was 19. Um, and I had him for 35 years in my life. So, you know, I do feel that many people never meet the man or you know, don't know if their dreams. And he was definitely my soulmate and my best friend. So I can't, although I, you know, my favorite expression to say to people is if I could cry him back to life, I would.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

But I can't. And so therefore, I'm just going to celebrate what I did have with him rather than grieving the time I didn't have.

SPEAKER_04 5:08

Yeah. Yeah. So in South Africa, is it that you kind of do credits for your degree, or you know, rather than focusing on the because you on the the the the thing, uh, the subject that you're majoring in. Is that how it works? Or yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yeah. You have to have one major, which is three years worth of the same thing.

SPEAKER_04 5:27

So it's like the American system, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

It is, I I'm not sure what the American system is like, but we have a major and a sub-major is two years in a certain subject, and then you can fill in the rest of your you have to have um nine credits. Oh right. And you can fill in other credits with any subjects you like. So I chose psychology and um linguistics and African literature and things like that, and honestly, philosophy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:48

So now I do know that um uh he didn't like running, although he did run with you, he didn't like it. So it was a bit of a chore. I don't know, a bit of a chore for him.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

So um but I'm he hated running. I mean, he used to say to me, it's boring, boring, boring. Um he said that to me once in a run, and I felt my energy levels just sinking with every word, which does show you, you know, how you've got to be so careful about the thoughts you allow and the things that come out of your mouth. So, I mean, I might be moaning like crazy in the in my mind when I'm running, thinking how my ankles hurt, my knees are sore, whatever. But I never express that negativity out loud. I might afterwards, after marathon, I'll say, Oh my god, that was terrible, or whatever. But I don't at the time because I know it can have a very negative effect on the people I run with. So, my poor husband, I mean, I just entered him in marathons, um, mainly because I wanted him to drive me there. And he said, What are we doing this weekend? And I'd say marathon, and he'd go, You're joking. And I said, No. They said, You never even asked me. And I go, No, no, well, I was in a rush, and I just quickly had to do it. Um, and funny enough, he was such a good runner. If he had done a lot of training, I mean, he ran like sub four and a half hours every time with the minimum of training. I think the only time I could really remember him training well was for comrades because he was a little bit scared of the distance of comrades, which is two marathons plus a 5k on top of it. So it's 91 kilometers, 56 miles.

SPEAKER_04 7:08

Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Um, but yeah, so he did go out seriously training for that. But the rest of the time he hardly trains at all and he could still do a sub-four and a half. And he did manage to get a sub-4 um in Rotterdam. So yeah, we're really proud of him. And, you know, he was he hated spectating at comrades because it's very difficult to get to the course because they close so many rows. And he kept saying, you know, I hate, I hate spectating, it's so boring. I actually just run it myself. And I said to him, if you say it one more time, you are gonna run it. I will enter you. And he moaned again like that. And I said, Right, you're answering. So he did comrades twice um as well, and he did the up and the down, whereas I've never succeeded at at doing the up. So although I've done it twice, I've only done the up run uh the down run. And I fell over in the third attempt um to do the down, the up run. So I didn't finish that one, but I did run for a full 12 hours, so I didn't uh quit. I I I waited until they pulled me off the course.

SPEAKER_04 8:01

So for those who don't know about the comrades, it's a it's a race in in South Africa from from from could you sort of tell us tell our audience a little bit more about it? So you you talked about the d the distance to two marathons plus 5k, 91.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Yeah. Yeah. Um well it's an iconic race in South Africa. It's our London marathon, yeah, but it's just a lot longer. And in South Africa, you're not really considered a real runner unless you've done comrades. I thought it was extremely unlikely that I would ever do it. I had a secret desire to do it. In fact, I was in a pub once in Switzerland with my dad and my sister, and they wrote down promises on a beer mat that they would do comrades. And I really wanted to put my beer mat in the ring as well. But I'm the kind of person, I'm a woman of my word. So if I say I'm gonna do something, I'm definitely gonna do it. And I just thought, I want to do it, but I don't think I can. Uh, because you have to um do a qualifying marathon in order to be able to do it. So in those days it was five hours. I believe the qualifying time dropped down to 4 50 and then it's gone back up to five. So I had to take about 45 minutes off my marathon time, my average marathon time, which I didn't know if that was possible at all. Um, but it's such a party. Um, you know, the whole route, it's 91 kilometers, and there are people every step of the way. They give you free massages at the side of the road, they'll give you a piece of meat off their barbecue, they cheer for you, they encourage you, and there's a thing called the spirit of comrades, which is your fellow competitors want you to finish as well. So they will drag you across the finish line. Um but the scary thing with comrades is if you are literally one step too late in that 12 hours, uh, a man comes out, the race official, he turns his face on the runners, he fires the gun and they run across the line with a finish tape, and no one's allowed to finish after that. So you could be one second too late and not get a medal or a time. So it's very strict about that. Um, and so the final moments of comrades, um, I mean the crowds, I've been in the crowds because I finished with 15 minutes to spare, so I could actually go and stand in cheer. The crowds just go nuts, and there's people crawling in, you know, trying to get across that line before the gun goes oh, it's really dramatic. Yeah, and it's just something that unites the whole country.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:12

Um, and yeah, it was it was hugely emotional. I ran for in honor of my mother who'd been killed training for a marathon. She was run over a reckless driver.

SPEAKER_04 10:21

Oh dear.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

So um I had her photo on my back. A lot of runners came and talked to me about my mother. And I don't think I could have finished it, to be honest. I needed my mother with me. Uh, she really propelled me across that finish line. And I had a picture of her on my t-shirt um as well. So um, it was such an emotional event for me. And then I realized I could do it. So the next year I went back and did it again. Um, and it was a double down that year. So they changed direction of the race every year. It's usually you know, Peter Maritzburg to Durban or Durban to Peter Maritzburg.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Because of the Football World Cup, they did a double down. So it was two years in a row, they did it down. And I succeeded both times um in finishing at a very similar time. I think I took my time down to 11 hours, um, 41 the next year. So I did two minutes faster. And then the third year I had the accident, I've tripped her on a cat's eye and um was bleeding my arm. I thought I tore my arm off, but it really I didn't have full function of my arm for a year afterwards. Uh it was really bad, but I hadn't done enough training. I didn't I just didn't realize it's a very different ball game running two uphill marathons compared to running two downhill ones. So um I didn't deserve to finish, but I ran the whole time.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

But I I'm really proud of myself that I I didn't quit. I I did keep going and um, you know, they pulled me off the course after 12 hours.

SPEAKER_04 11:37

That um sort of, you know, that thing with a gun, sort of like having a marker that reminds me of a film on Netflix I watched, which is about um some famous cross-country skiing event which takes place in Norway or something like that. And I think they it's kind of like, I don't know, a hundred kilometres or something like that, and they do the same thing, you know, like if you haven't reached you know a certain place at a certain time, then they put the uh put the line across.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

So they actually do it through our comrades as well. There's cutoffs all along the way. Yeah. And they will they will just stop you from going any further. So you run in fear of those as well. But um, I was hoping, you know, in my my my uh final one that didn't finish where I was injured, I was hoping that they would pull me off. But I kept getting through the cutoffs in time. I was thinking, my goodness, I'll just run to the next cutoff and then they'll pull me off. And I also wanted to scatter some of my mother's ashes um on the route. So I managed to do that successfully as well. So there was, you know, a lot of emotion in in the third one as well.

SPEAKER_04 12:36

Oh, brilliant. So so obvious it's obviously a big media event, I suppose, in South Africa. I mean, I suppose it's you know, it must get a lot of coverage.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

They they televise it all day, and that's where I got the desire to run it. Because in my day there was a runner who I've now met, um, called Bruce Fordyce, and he won it an unbelievable nine times, and he was this little blonde, um, small runner with blonde, long blonde hair. And my father used to call us to come and watch him run. So that's where the kind of seed was sown, and you know, we'd we'd sit around in this darkened living room watching it all day, and then he'd win it again, and it was so wonderful. So when I did my first one, I had my photo taken with him, and it was just so exciting. I couldn't actually believe it. And he's very active now in Park Run in South Africa, so he's carried on his running legacy in that way. Yeah, amazing man.

SPEAKER_04 13:25

So moving back to this to the book, still running after all these tears. So was it sort of a little bit of count self-cancelling, bit cathetic, as it were? Um cathartic. Catholic, yeah, exactly. It's like, oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Very cathartic. Yeah. No, no, no. Extreme. Um, I it's the hardest book I've ever had to write. I it drained me so much. Some days I could only write for two hours and I then had to go to sea. I I couldn't, uh I had cried so much, or it had brought up so many bad memories. I mean, I had to read my my husband's hospice notes, I had to read his medical notes, um, I had to recall some of the most difficult things I've ever experienced in my life writing this book. So it was very, very difficult. But I think it really was hugely healing for me to get all that anger and stress and distress out onto computer. Not all of it's gone in the book. I mean, it just would have been an absolute tidal wave of negativity. So I had several people advising me and um reading the book and telling me where some of the stuff could be taken out. But the fact was that I'd got it down, I acknowledged my pain was really important. And I'm so glad I wrote it. And I really, really hope that it helps, you know, other people who go into the same thing that I did. Um, just the shortcuts without having to read, you know, literally a meets it pile high of books. Yeah. Um, I've but the summary at the end will really help people, I believe. And that's why I wrote it, um, to share that wisdom because um Oprah Winfrey said it talked about um turning wounds into wisdom. Yeah. And there is such a thing called uh post-traumatic growth. And I've definitely grown as a person and I've learned a lot about myself, about people around me, and techniques, you know, for saying positive, because it's very easy if you spent your entire adult life as a married woman to suddenly be a widow.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

It's very difficult and it's very easy to be drawn into despair. So, you know, I give people thought management techniques that I use during my husband's illness and even now because I really believe you have to choose happiness. So I monitor my happiness all the time. And if I wake up and I'm having a down day, I go, it's not carry on like a down day. I'm gonna do something to fix this. I'm gonna think about what brings me joy and I'm gonna go and do that. Yeah. And I look for funny moments, you know, in everyday life, all the time. I'm on the lookout for something to laugh at because it just makes me feel so much happier. And also just I look for human connection as well. Like I talk to shopkeepers, I talk to bus drivers, um, I talk to people waiting at the bus stop, whatever. I know that's not a very British thing to do, but South Africans, that's very common with with us. And um, we don't, we're not gonna follow you home or anything. We just want a little chat. So um I do that a lot, and I find I get a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 16:10

Some would some would argue that it's more of a London thing that we're a bit sort of reserved. Whereas I think in the north, uh, or even, you know, my uh wife's family is from Wales, you know, they're a little bit more open, more friendly, and uh sort of will talk to anyone.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

I have encountered that in the few times that I've been to those places. Yeah, I agree. But definitely, I mean, I spend 27 years living in London. You do not talk to people. You do not, I promise you, they are going to run away from you. Whereas, yeah, when I moved to Worthing, I mean I couldn't even buy a chocolate bar, and the man in the shop's going, Where are you from? And you know, what's that accent? And have you always lived in Worthing? And you know, I was thinking, my God, that's 20-minute conversation over chocolate bar. It's so nice. I just love it. The post down here is a lot um, you know, calmer and uh friendlier than I still love London though.

SPEAKER_04 17:03

I mean, you you touched on something there, I was gonna ask you. Is it different in terms of grief and bereavement for a man than it is for uh a woman when they've lost their their other half? Do you think that's you know, very different different, you know, a different scenario for men? You know, does it affect them? Do you do you I mean obviously it's it's hard for to to talk from that point of view, but you know, you may be able to give sort of your opinion in terms of how different they might be for men, you know, if they've lost their significant other.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

Um well, I belong to a grief group for a while. Um Julia Samuels' grief group, which I highly recommend and wish I'd discovered earlier called Griefworks. And um it was very, very interesting listening to Julia speak because she is, you know, a world expert on bereavement. She set up a charity with Princess Diana for children's bereavement. Um and it is different for men and women, according to her. Um men tend to move on much more quickly.

SPEAKER_03 18:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Um, they are not very happy alone. So they will, you know, kind of just find another partner really quickly. Um they they sort of need to do that a lot more than women. Um women take a lot longer to get over something like that. Um they grieve in a different way. But um, we had breakout rooms, and um, so they say so they say there's eight people attending the webinar, then five of us uh, and they actually um it's really, really well done. They group you according to your kind of loss. So there's sibling loss, there's child loss, there's parent loss, there's you know, partner loss. So obviously I was always put in the partner loss ones or multiple losses, actually. I was put in, I think the multiple uh losses section. Yeah. And um, you know, there was a man there who'd um lost his partner. And I mean, his grief was identical to mine. I mean, I I just the raw grief, like when he spoke, I was just my heart went out to him. And um, you know, what I I liked was by then I'd I mean that was three and a half years down the line from my husband's death. And I I could say to him, Listen, I know you can't believe it for one moment now that you'll ever be happy again, that you'll ever laugh again, that you'll ever find joy, but you will. And I'm living proof of that, you know. So hang in there, like in the darkest times, just go, let me just hang on for one more minute, one more hour, one more day, and you know, things will change. Um, and so I found this group like I really loved the breakouts because we were really, you know, I don't know anyone else who's widowed because I was young when I was widowed, but I was 53. So it wasn't something that any of my friends had been through. Um, and I hadn't really spoken to very many older people about widowhood either. And then to be able to just be in a group of women, and the lovely thing was we'd all adored our husbands. So we could talk about them. We could mention, you know, the name Graham. Suddenly we could just talk like that. Yeah. And then, you know, oh you you lost your Trevor, didn't you? And yeah, so um I really would recommend it. And I wish I discovered it um sooner, because I had read uh Julia's books, but I hadn't actually joined it.

SPEAKER_04 20:08

Um I could identify with that my my father lost our mother, uh my sister and my mother when he was uh he was 50 and she was 45. So so but again he within a year he'd moved on to another relationship. So um, but I don't know whether for men uh we will get back onto running, but I mean for men in your who in their later years, maybe 60 plus or something like that, then because they've been with a partner for a long time, it's harder for them to move on, you know, and they maybe tend to hang on to you know the memories that they had.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

No, I don't think the evidence um bears that out. Uh Julia Samuel does have an expression. I just was trying to, that's one of the problems. Um having this amount of bereavement, it's it's it really creates havoc with your memory. My short-term memory is absolutely shot. And I sometimes have to just write down where someone works um as opposed to their name. Because I can't I've known them for 20, 30 years, but I can't I can't remember what their name is. It's just the craziest thing. But no, um, men definitely seek out a new partner much more um quickly than women. It's the same after divorce as well. Um, men will get a new partner instantly. You see, men are not very good at looking after themselves, like they they're often looked after by their wife. I mean, my relationship was really unusual because my husband was always looking looking after me. You know, he just drove me everywhere. The things I had to learn after he died, I mean, I had no idea how to put in the tires of a car. I still don't know how to change the oil or what, you know, how you even measure the oil. I I just don't. I I don't know any of those things. So um, you know, thank goodness there were a few things, life skills that he did teach me. Like he made me do the insurance. So that was one thing I could do, and I can hang a painting very well. All right. And I actually I must share with you that my greatest. Triumph was hanging up all my medals on this massive long cast iron pole in my kitchen. And I had all the medals under my bed as they were before my husband got involved and hung them up for me at home. And I thought, oh, I just can't hang them. How on earth am I going to hang up as a woman on my own, hang up a two-meter-long pole? And then I saw these medals under the bed and I thought my husband would be really upset about these medals being under the bed again. So I set about hanging up this thing with a drill. And I had two footstools and I put piles of towels up to measure it out and make it equal and level and everything. And I put the little um spirit level on the top and it's completely level. And I hung those up, and everyone who comes to my house or my flat um just comments on them and it makes me so happy. And I I run my fingers over the metals and they make all these tinking sounds.

SPEAKER_04 22:46

Very good.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

And I know my husband's so proud of me.

SPEAKER_04 22:48

A tune. Yeah, you could probably make it with spoons.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Yeah, I could actually. Yeah. And that was actually, you know, one of my widow achievements was um doing that for myself. I was so proud of myself. But my husband had taught me about painting hanging, so I had a little bit of experience in the past. But there were certain other things I had very little experience of. He once went to live abroad and he had to leave me a manual on how to how to run the house, and one of the things was how to turn the television on. No.

SPEAKER_04 23:15

Because it never took it. I don't believe it.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

I'm being dead serious because it's quite complicated, our one. The the um it's not as simple as you think. It's not just on off. It's uh on the remote control, it's quite complicated. So he had to give me instructions on television turning on, yeah. It was very funny. And I have to use the dishwasher because I don't know how that either.

SPEAKER_04 23:36

Oh right. Okay, okay. But but you got there in the end.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

So I got there in the end, and now I can't believe it. I run my household very efficiently. The only thing I do is I tend to run out of food, but I've got a lot of things in the freezer and tins. Um, so I can stay healthy, but I've just been so busy writing and promoting my book that I often just don't have time to go to the supermarket. So then I just live on, you know, store cupboard provisions and also biltong. I love my dried meat from South Africa. So some days my poor friend, she's my running buddy, comes around with nails on wheels and she just says, You cannot just live on Biltong. I know you've been eating Bilton for a whole week. Like, okay, I'm very grateful for some vegetables.

SPEAKER_04 24:14

Right. Well, Lisa, um, I've been I've thoroughly enjoyed talking to you. But before we go, before we go, I do want to go through a few um rapid fire questions. Um but first of all, what's your favorite post-race treat?

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Well, it has to be vinegary chips and a mug of tea. Yeah. Yes. You need something salty after all the sweet things you eat. Yeah. And it's it's really restorative. I I do love that. I fantasize sometimes about having a hamburger, but when it actually comes to it, uh I don't feel like it.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

But um I eat a lot of chocolate during ones after 30k, that's when I break out the chocolate. So by the time I get to the end of a race, uh my teeth are all furry. And I'm just graving something salty. Yeah. And I always have to have the tea as well. I love my tea.

SPEAKER_04 25:07

So you've done a lot of marathons. What was your if I know it's very hard to choose. It's marathons are like your your children. It's hard to choose which one is your favourite. But what was your dream at marathon and uh what was your favorite one?

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Well, I always say comrades, but we've talked about that a lot now, so I'm gonna have to choose another one. Um, every marathon is special, like even the boring ones where we just ran round and round and round lakes in Milton Keys. Because I always meet someone special, always have some memory of it.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Um, but I do love the Paris marathon, and sadly I'm just not fast enough to run it anymore. Uh, but you see every single famous site in the whole of Paris. It is so beautiful. The crowd support's fantastic. It's lovely to go there, you know, for a weekend. Uh so I had to nominate Paris, I think.

SPEAKER_04 25:53

All right. Did you do New York?

SPEAKER_00 25:56

I have. I've done all the majors except for Tokyo.

SPEAKER_04 25:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Um, I love New York. Um, the the diff, you know, going through the different boroughs and all have their own personality and the the spectators are different there as well. Like you get the Hasidic Jewish community and they're very silent, and then you get, you know, the black community and they're super exuberant, you know. Um I just love it. Yeah, it was a fantastic marathon.

SPEAKER_04 26:20

And um do you uh are you what running book are you reading now? Well, obviously you're promoting your own book at the moment, but are you reading your particular running book now or yeah?

SPEAKER_00 26:32

I've just got to the end of um uh one small step by Paulson Hewitt.

SPEAKER_04 26:39

Um, the Park Run Founder.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Parkrun founder. And I uh he's actually Southern African as well. And I can't call him South Africa because he was born in Zimbabwe, but he grew up in South Africa.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

And I've just such I've met him actually at at Worthing Parkrun. He comes down and does it sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

And I just have so much admiration for that man because I think you know the government has you know pumped loads of money into um trying to encourage this nation to be sporty.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

And then he went and pumped his own, you know, and he spent 50,000 pounds of his own money and starting Parkrun. So to actually read his biography and know the hurdles that he overcame as a child, because he was put into care. Yeah, his mother just as a model, she just left and went to Paris.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Yeah. And his father, he was really young, and his father put him into care. And he suffered, when I talk about, you know, I was a bit bullied at uh primary school. I mean, the bullying he had, I can't even mention it because it's just too horrible to tell you, but he really had severe bullying at um at school and um, you know, in the care home. And I I just admire a man because he, if anyone has has turned wounds into wisdom, it's him. And the fact he just went and did it, um, and and he and he made running accessible because he's actually a very good runner. Like he was trying to, I think, go sub two and a half hours or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 27:57

Yeah, I think right, yeah. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Yeah. And yet um here he comes and he and he just goes, I'm gonna make it accessible for the Lisa Jacksons of this world. No, I just I just think he's just a remarkable man and he's so humble, and he gives loads of credit to his wife. His wife was sort of my Graham, you know, like she supported him.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Uh she was amazing, Joe. So yeah, I really enjoyed that book. I'm just coming to the last, you know, few pages. And um yeah, it was a real emotional ride. So I highly recommend that book.

SPEAKER_04 28:25

So I think you may have asked this answer to this question already. What was your most embarrassing running moment? Is it the when you fell over on the comrades?

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Or oh, I wasn't embarrassed. No, that wasn't embarrassing. That was just utterly, you know, like so disappointing and and and agonizing. No, um, I think I'm gonna have to nominate uh my auntie and I doing the Paris marathon. So it was my um third marathon, and we couldn't find the toilets. Now there's 15,000 toilets at the start, 10,000 of them, but we couldn't find them because and you didn't want to walk too far because you know we were worried about adding a way back distance to our feet. Yeah, exactly. Finding the floor, stars again, etc. So my aunt, oh thank God I was wearing a fairy tutu at the time. She just pulled me down behind a blade of grass on the Sean's Lise and made me wee, like right there in front of everybody. I promise you. But I just couldn't start, uh honestly, because I drank so much water, because you know you you live in utter fear when you first start running that you're gonna dehydrate, you know, pass out from dehydration before you've even taken a step. So I had just drunk so much and I couldn't have run with such a poor bladder. So she made me do that, and it was so funny. And she didn't even have like a tutu. Like I was so grateful because I could sort of like hiding underneath my tutu when I did that. So it was very embarrassing. But my aunt's the kind of person, you know, she just again, she's a bit like my mom, like just you know, get on with it, just do it now. That's do what I say and get it over with, and then we can enjoy our race. So we did.

SPEAKER_04 29:50

Well, if Paula Radcliffe was embarrassing.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

And well, if Paula Radcliffe can um can do it during the second, just long before doing a portable thing. Yeah, hasn't it? Yeah, exactly. So I was a trailblazer. I'm sure Paula learnt about what I did.

SPEAKER_04 30:04

She probably heard your story.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

So what does um uh last question? What does running success mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 30:13

I would say finishing no matter how long it takes. So I've got a lot of catchphrases that I love to use. One is last but having a blast.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

You know, one is um finish lines, not finish times. So to me, getting across that finish line, getting my medal around my neck, which I bow down like an Olympian when I receive, I refuse to have my medal handed to me. It has to be hung around my neck is a feeling. That's why I keep doing races, because it's just the euphoria that I feel of conquering myself, you know, of going, you find this difficult, you've never found running easy, you are deeply untalented at it. And one of my favorite uh things to say about myself is I'm a triumph of tenacity over a lack of talent. So I'm not talented, but I'm determined. And I love proving that over and over to myself because it makes me proud of myself. And the resilience that I gained through my running stood me in very good stead through my husband's illness and the bereavements. So I think it is a superpower to be a runner. And it doesn't matter, honestly, when the people who listen to this, you know, if you get through a 5k, I feel that's long. I think anything more than a 20-minute run is a long run. So the distance doesn't matter. It's the fact that you got off your sofa, which nowadays, you know, with what's on television, so interesting. You could just spend your entire life watching Netflix. But the fact we get up when it's cold and wet and damp and windy and go out there and do something, it says a lot about you.

SPEAKER_04 31:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

And it keeps reaffirming that you're capable of more than you think.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

So we're coming to the end. Um and we as the time of recording, we're recording this just before Christmas, but it was this episode will be going out in January after your um your book comes out. So no doubt, um still running after all these tiers will be available on I take it all bookshops.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Yes, it's going to be in Waterstones. Amazon.

SPEAKER_04 32:11

And and Amazon and wherever. So um I and it's something that um I'll be reading over Christmas, and I'm sure I can thoroughly recommend that everyone um goes out and buy it if they've got a book voucher for Christmas.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Oh, that's a lovely idea, Brian. And also I'm going to be at the National Running Show. So the book is officially being launched there, although it comes out on the 8th of January. We're launching it um on the 31st of January. We're asking people to wear pink to take do a big pink takeover of the National Running Show. And people win, um, there's going to be 10 copies a day of the book for free to the best dressed. Um, who comes at the most outrageous pink outfit. So um, I hope to see you there. I'll be signing books and I'll also be on a panel discussion.

SPEAKER_04 32:54

Right. And um, do you can uh are you on social media or I am indeed.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

I am indeed. Um so I'm very active on Facebook, so I'm Lisa Flamingo Jackson.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Uh as in the birth. So Lisa Flamingo Jackson on Facebook and Instagram. Um, less uh active on Instagram because I haven't really quite mastered it, and I'm Lisa Jackson43 um on X. Oh, great. So I do uh make various appearances on X, but my favorite um you know platform is Facebook.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

Alright.

SPEAKER_04 33:25

Talking about flamingos, did you hear about that flamingo who went from Cornwall to to France?

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 33:32

I know. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

I just love that. Someone sends you some. Oh man, I I just love flamingos. They are so elegant and I love the colour. Yeah. And um, yeah, no, I did hear about that rogue flamingo. It was very funny.

SPEAKER_04 33:46

Okay, okay. Well, if you um stick around after I sorry, um end the end our recording, but I just wanted to say I've had a blast, been really looking forward to our chat. I will get around to reading uh reading the your book, especially chapter 27. And uh and uh uh I hope you'll actually make sure I've given you the right chapter.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Oh, okay. It's definitely called the Oh no, it's not, it's chapter 28. 28, okay. You'll be reading a very sad chapter before you buy a mistake. No, it's chapter 28.

SPEAKER_04 34:20

All right. I just want to say goodbye uh from me, Brian Patterson, and hopefully you'll uh listen, be listening to this episode and other episodes in Brian's ROM-card catalogue. And I want to say goodbye from Lise Jackson as well, who honestly I've had a blast talking to her. But um, as I said, this will be split. I usually like to split the episode um over two weeks. So um uh so you get two half hour chunks. Brilliant. Thank you very much. Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

It's wonderful meeting you, Brian. Bye bye.