The Architect of Chinese Advertising: Chris Reitermann's Legendary Career

From the Dotcom Boom and Bust all the way to the global Olympic spotlight, Chris Reitermann, CEO of Oglivy APAC & Greater China and President of WPP China, has lived the ultimate advertising dream in China.

In this captivating episode, this legendary adman takes us on a wild 25-year ride through China's economic ascent and the highs and lows of building Ogilvy into a marketing juggernaut in the Middle Kingdom and across Asia Pacific.

With self-deprecating wit and refreshing candor, Chris regales us with tales of pitching game-changing campaigns, mastering the art of "China Speed," and future-proofing creativity in the age of AI. 

From forging Ogilvy's digital dominance in a carpet factory to crafting an iconic Olympic slogan overnight, his anecdotes offer a rare glimpse into the mad world of Chinese advertising. Whether you're an industry insider, a China-watcher, or simply crave an inspiring story of perseverance and vision, this is a must-listen odyssey with one of the true architects of Brand China.

Transcript

1:43

And we are back. Ladies and gentlemen. Boys and girls. Kaboom Town. This guy. This guy, I've known him almost a quarter century and I am so grateful that he's taking the time and he is incredibly busy schedule. Please welcome to the pod, Chris Reiterman, everybody. Yeah, I want you to applaud. Like, I said before, I don't care if you're on the toilet, somewhere, driving your car, if it's dangerous. This is amazing. Like we're just chatting before and his signature modesty and humor and honesty, but I met Chris way back just around the"dot-com bust time" about 25 years ago. And he is just had this incredible trajectory. You know, I'm calling it. the alpha of the advertising industry. He's just running the show, which I think is for sure the best agency across the region, one of the best in the world, and it's absolutely amazing. So thanks for coming on, Chris. Thanks, rich. What an amazing introduction. I hope I can live up to that. Yeah, we've known each other for a very long time. It's actually, you know, when you reached out to me, it's actually thinking you were probably one of the first Laowai I met when I came to Beijing. So, you know, you're literally one of the very first guys I ran into in some kind dodgy bar in Beijing, 25 years ago, and, you know, I looked at all the people that you had on your show so far. I know pretty much all of them, many of them personally quite well. So, you know, obviously we've done very different things, but we've probably gotten a very similar kind of route through life, and met a lot of very similar people. And, you know, we both had a blast doing what we did and, you know, enjoy the sun and Bali and I'm still here, you know, grinding it every day. Grinding it from the mothership in China, but you have this beautiful place in Thailand that I know for like the last couple of decades. So you have your sort of escape route, but you know, it's interesting. After every pot, I asked people,"Who should I bring on next? Who should I bring on next?" And your name was number one across that people like, "Oh my God, you want to talk to somebody who's been at the front row eating popcorn, watching the show and participating in the show, watching stuff happen real time, you got to bring on Chris Reiterman." And here you finally are. So it's great. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you. And man, you know, I'd love to hear a little bit about your story, your origin story, and your path to China and your journey at Ogilvy. WPP. You know, like most of us, probably go some kind of similar path, which starts kind of being lost in life or something or not exactly knowing what to do. All I knew very early on I like advertising, I actually knew that before I even graduated from high school and, I knew that Germany is probably not the place I want to spend my life. Can I interrupt you there? You knew you loved advertising in high school. I've never heard that before. Tell me about that. Tell me like where that came from. And I love advertising too, even though people, you know. People like, you know, criticize it. I love the creativity and, you know, business side. Actually, it's a funny story. You know, in the US you have this, you know, you do kind of yearbooks every year, right? So it's like kind of pictures of everybody, and in Germany you don't do that. And one day we decided we're going to do like a yearbook. And somehow I got the job and then I had to find like, advertisers to sponsor that thing and help us print it and do all that kind of stuff. And that was probably when I was like 16 or something and a friend of mine, his parents had an ad agency that helped us. That time you didn't have computers. So it was like, you know, the whole print setting and all that kind of stuff was a bit complicated. But I really loved that process and spend quite a lot of time in my friend's parents agency. It's like a tiny little agency. I'm like, "Oh, that's cool. I want to do more of that." And then, try to become a German copywriter until I realized that's not going to travel very far. German copywriting is not too much in demand in the rest of the world. So, that kind of got me into it. And then, you know, I tried to, I went to school, university and ended up by sheer luck, doing a thing called "East Asian Business Management," which was like in 1991, and as part of that, you had to pick either Japanese, Korean, or Chinese. And my grades were pretty bad. So, the only thing that they let me in was the Chinese one, because at that time China wasn't popular at all. I think they had like 40 spots and 27 people applied or something. So everybody got in. That was it. And I had to study in China. Did that while I was at Dongji in 92', I think, studying Chinese. But then, you know, went back to Germany and, and thought like, probably I don't have to like, really start my career in China. So I found myself a job in London. And then that was at Ogilvy already. And then by sheer luck, my big, big boss at that time, got transferred to become the head of Ogilvy in Asia. So my predecessor, and he said like,"Hey, don't you know some Chinese?" He said, "Yeah." And then he said like, "Come along." So I joined him to Hong Kong. And, Very funny. I was then probably one of the first foreigners ever that got his work visa rejected in Hong Kong because they said I have no skills of any value to Hong Kong. I just found the letter a couple of weeks ago. Quite funny. It was at that time. You should post that. It's like Jack Ma getting rejected from KFC. You gotta post that. I think I did. So, they rejected my work visa, and then they didn't really know what to do with me. And then they said like, "Hey, why don't you go to Taiwan?" Because, you know, being in Hong Kong, not having a job, not having any money is a pretty expensive undertaking when you're like 25. So then, Ogilvy to Taiwan and there was that time to be in Xiamen running things and they kindly gave me a home in Taiwan, and then I started pretty much my career and over in Taiwan. Stayed there for four years and then moved to Beijing and that's it. Fantastic trajectory. Wow. Because in some ways, Taiwan was ideal because you're using Mandarin. It's already way more. It's not as advanced as Hong Kong, maybe in advertising. I don't know, but maybe equal, but may way more advanced than the mainland. So by the time you got to Beijing, you were already like, you know, that now you have a lot of expertise, language and, you know, advertising. And then you brought it to. Actually, you know, Taiwan at that time, kind of in the '90s, Taiwan was like one of the most sophisticated and successful creative places in Asia. And Ogilvy, Taiwan at that time was probably one of the one top one or two largest markets for us in the whole of Asia. It was huge. Fantastic. How many Laowai in that office? One. That's so great. That was actually something. You know, when I showed up there, I mean, I knew, like a few words or something, but there was no foreigner for quite a while. And everything that happened, happened in Chinese. So I had like no idea what's going on. And, you know, that, that's probably encouraged me to study Chinese a bit harder and know what's going on. I remember like in the beginning, you know, they had like always these announcements over the loudspeaker and I had no idea what they were saying. And then, 20 minutes later, nobody was there anymore. And I was still sitting at my desk because it was like a fire, fire alarm or company meeting or whatever. In the end, I think we had like one or two other foreigners, but it was very local, very local. That's great. And then, you showed up in Beijing. I want to see, like, was it 2000, 2001? Yeah. Actually like January 2000 or December 1999. Oh, January 2000. Okay. Let's do 2000 because I remember it was like, when I met you, it was just"dot-com bust", right around that time. I believe. And I think that you were focusing initially on digital, like specifically, like Ogilvy back then. Is that right? Ogilvy Interactive. Nothing in my life seems to happen the way it's supposed to happen. I worked at advertising in Taiwan and then when I moved to China, they gave me a job on, I think I was supposed to work on IBM, which at that time was our biggest and only client more or less in Beijing. And then that didn't quite work out. And then they said like, Oh, we have this new thing called "Ogilvy Interactive." Why don't you try that one? And at that time I had like two or three bosses above me and somehow within like two weeks they all left, and then I literally kind of got promoted three times in two weeks or something because nobody was there anymore. But you were forged by fire, right? Because there was like very little budget and you're like, okay, you're in control, you're running the show. But like you had to be an entrepreneur. You really were like scrappy, I think. At that time we had like, its call it "visionary leader" in some ways, maybe a bit crazy. But you know, he knew that the internet's going to be big. And what's his name? Larry Rinaldi. Yeah, I must say he's the one that kind of took us into a space that nobody really knew what it was. He maybe did it a bit too extreme because he basically told everybody like, "Advertising is the end of it. Forget about everything. It's all the internet. Let's put all our chips on the internet." The only problem was they were like kind of 2 million internet users at that time. So not that much money to be made yet. So we maybe made the shift a bit too fast. You know, I remember we had in the early days, 3, 400 people doing digital, but there was no digital to be done because there was no internet. So I remember us doing CD ROMs. That was kind of like a thing for a while. So, we took like company brochures and put them on a CD ROM and then, you know, put some funny interface to it. And everybody thought like, "Woohoo." That's crazy. We got like paid like a hundred grand to do a CD ROM or something like that. And then we started building the first websites, same thing. You know, it's like a 20 page kind of brochure and we got paid like 500,000 bucks to do it. Now you would probably get 50 bucks to do it. But you know, just, just figuring things out and helping clients to kind of master the internet somehow. And, we did some, some serious stuff, obviously we did some, some pretty big stuff. IBM helped them to build kind of all that digital presence in China at that time. And it was a lot of fun. And we had like a dodgy office to start with. It was the number one carpet factory in the middle of nowhere. And within the number one carpet factory, there was an even shittier room called room 401. That was where the internet guys were and locked away in that room doing stuff. But it was a lot of fun because we had no idea what we were doing and we're just trying to figure things out together with our clients. It was good. So I remember two things. Number one. When I met you, I was like, "Wow. Your Chinese was already good." And I was like, "This guy is coming in the digital interactive space. Wow, he's really, you know, qualified to do something." Because there was no other agencies. It was kind of like Forrest Gump when all the boats got destroyed. And then they became like the dominant shrimper. I think most countries around the world. It wasn't large agencies that dominated interactive. It was like a lot of the independent agencies, but you guys were really dominant in the digital agency space. I partially, you know, Larry's vision and then you just like grabbing everything, right. And I think, that was like, a blessing in disguise in a way. You know, I think in the big people are like, "Take this over." And you're like, "Oh my God, there's no budget. There's nothing going on here." But then it seems like every quarter it was like growth, growth, growth, growth, growth, and compounding. Yeah, it wasn't just me, you know, we had a lot of crazy guys, and some of them still pop up in place. Yeah, Dirk, you know, he's traveling the world right now, but, actually, you know, Dirk and I were like, old friends from university. And he knew, how to design some websites or something, which at that time was totally enough to get a very good job. So, you know, we didn't have anyone in China who knew how to do it. So I called him and say, "Hey, Dirk, come, come and help out." And then, he did come and 25 years later, he's still there. And beyond the bell, I don't know. I don't know if you remember "Beyond"? He was CTO at that time, also some crazy guy. So we had quite a few of those. Then Bjorn's career, you know, App Annie and all the other stuff that he did. Yeah. I mean, it was a really great crew that you had there. Yeah. Amazing. And then, share from there, like, what the path of your career trajectory looked like after that. And like some of the new challenges you took on. Yeah, so I came to China and Ogilvy and now it's 25 years later, I'm still there. So, quite, quite unusual in our industry. Right. It doesn't and never did feel like I'm repeating things. And I think that's why I'm still doing what I'm doing. And it's an industry that I love and it's a company that I love too. I mean, Ogilvy is a great agency with a great culture. And I think we've been, you know, obviously not doing everything right, but we've done a lot of things right over the years and it's an agency with a great culture and, you know, I think also open to innovation and failure. I can't remember how many joint ventures or startups or whatever we had over the years that all didn't work out or most of them didn't work out. I'm still here and I still have my job. So Ogilvy was always nice enough to let me try things, explore new, you know, ventures, new directions. And often they didn't work out in some form, but they did work out in another, maybe got us into like a new offer, new service, stuff like that. And, you know, obviously over the last 25 years, our business changed massively, got a lot of more China as a market, got a lot more mature. And I was quite lucky that I had various different jobs over the years, and some of them were fully focused on China. Some of them were more regional. And it was always kind of interesting because whenever I had a regional role, I was still based in China. I was still living in China, but I was not spending every day of my life focusing on China, which I think was quite good because it kind of showed me what's going on in the rest of the world and, you know, gave me the ability to bring some of the learnings from China to other places and the other way around. So that was quite interesting. And also try to never be kind of like a China hand only which I think keeps you sane. So it was a great journey and I spent first nine years in Beijing, kind of leading up to the Olympics, which was kind of like a big blast, crazy experience. Share an Olympic anecdote. Something about that. 080808, kind of China coming out to the world. Could have a fun story with around the games or with a client. I was actually listening to Scott Chronic's episode and he already talked about it a lot. I think it was, you know, crazy for all of us, because it was probably five years where Beijing was the buzz of the world and everybody came and, lots of foreigners showed up. Lots of companies had major, you know, initiatives. For me personally, I think the most fun anecdote was Johnson and Johnson actually. They sponsored the Olympics one time and one time only, and that was in Beijing, because at that time the CEO decided that that's really the big kind of coming out party in China to show the world what a great business they are and what they have in China, their huge business in China. So, there was a massive pitch for their Olympic sponsorship and we went there and we walked in, I think it was on Easter Sunday or something like that. Wow. Probably 2007. And we walked in, we presented, and they were like, you know, literally 10 agencies presenting. And we presented and they basically said, "That's it." No, no, no deliberation. No, you know, nothing. They all fell in love with what represented. It was actually a lie. Okay. Which still until today, we're trying to find the right English translation. It was a Chinese line that we came up with and they loved it. And they said like, "Okay, you won. Everybody else can go home. Business is yours." And then we partnered with Johnson and Johnson to help them do all their Olympic campaign, Olympic activation, which literally was just for China. So they were a global sponsor, but they really didn't care too much about the rest of the world. They really wanted to do it for China. So that was really interesting. A lot of fun with great people. You know, a guy called Brian Perkins, who is a great guy still, even though I haven't seen him in 20 years, but great, great people at the Johnson and Johnson side. And then for like a year and a half, we did all that work around the Olympics. Amazing. That's decisive. I love it. Like, that's Mad Men kind of stuff. It's like, "Oh yes, that copywriting." Like, that's the power of what you do. I remember there's one scene in Madman, where a junior guy takes out a pencil and he starts to like make notes on the copy and the senior guy like says like, "No, no, no, stop that. Stop that." Right. It's like this one line has. In this case, you know, I could tell you the real story. It was, I think the night before and we didn't have a bloody line. So we told like everybody in the agency, you're writing lines now. So everybody wrote lines and we had like a hundred lines or something. And then we kind of narrowed it down to like three, four, five. And it was actually a line written by a copywriter from Taiwan who wrote it. And in the end, I think we went in with like two lines or something, but it was literally like no major strategy behind it. It was just like, "Okay, let's get as many lines as we can, because we only have 24 hours left." And then, this guy came up with a line and they loved it. And that became the line for the Olympic campaign. But that's a great strategy, right? Get the hive mind involved, bring everybody, no matter how, you know, junior, senior they are, and then, you know, really try to grab them because you've got a 10 of them, you can only, how much can they remember, right? And they can remember that line and it worked. that's excellent. And you know what? My inbox is polluted. With your awards all the time. I see in LinkedIn will be just crushes it in the award category. So that wasn't an anomaly. That was definitely something that you've replicated again and again over the decades, which is, you know, pretty, pretty damn impressive, in this crazy competitive market. So let's talk a little bit about this crazy competitive market, these last 20 minutes. I'd love to hear a story or anecdote of like. First of all, if you're in the advertising industry, you're already at a ridiculous clock speed. Like the agency life is much closer to like startup or some sort of like crazy investment banking, you know, hours and pace and intensity than just about anything else. Right. So you're already at a different clock speed. And then you place that in the China environment where things just, you know, objectively, go faster. And I'd love to hear, you know, like, if you're able to, you know, because it's like that old thing, I've said this before, there's an old fish and two young fish. Good morning, sir. Good morning, boys. How's the water boys. Excellent, sir. And then he swims away and they're like, what's water. So you're literally surrounded in water. Like speed is one of your key competitive advantages. Something that you, you know, are immersed in, but I'd love to hear a story of how things. Maybe you're different in China and how you've taken that to. China is obviously a very particular market, but I also think it's often a market where people come up with things like China speed, for example, which often is to me something that they use for like, "Let's do a not so great job." Yes. China obviously, you know, operates at a crazy pace, but I think often that mentality is not necessarily the best for quality and doing great stuff. It's yes, but you get things done, you get them done fast. You fail, change. But, you know, in our business, we sometimes also like to do things well, and sometimes to do things well, it takes, takes a bit of time and, that is still something that I'm often fighting with clients and say like, "In two days, you cannot do a great job. I'm sorry." But obviously, we're used to operate at a different pace than we do in many other markets and that's good, because you get to do much more and just the sheer volume of work that you do and get done in a place like China is crazy compared to other places. You know, but I often, I'll see like, for example, like how many pitches we do in like a year in China, you know, I don't know, 200 or 300 or 400. In Korea, we do two because, obviously it's a much smaller market for us, but things they're just move at a much slower pace than in China. And people may be sometimes a bit less strategic in how they think about things, but like, "Okay, I need this today, get it done, and then you do it." It's actually quite funny. A couple of years ago, we had a lot of local Chinese clients that went out of China. So, we set up a China outbound office, one in New York, one in Berlin. And I sent some people from our China office to Berlin and they couldn't believe how slow things move in Germany. You know, and we were working with Chinese clients in Germany. So they were like, "Okay, I want this now and I need it tomorrow." And like our people in our Berlin office were like, "Oh, I am, you know, three o'clock in the afternoon. I need to pick up my kids from kindergarten. And then I go to yoga class, come back tomorrow." So China operates definitely at a different pace. And I think it's, you know, sometimes good, sometimes not so good. But we obviously learn a lot on how to operate in this environment, but I also must say that, you know, clients and we work now with a lot of Chinese clients, right? We, I mean, we used to, when we first come came into China, we were like a hundred percent multinational companies. Now it's 50 percent local. And often, what we do for them, I think, is much more interesting class, because we help them create something from nothing. And we kind of run the show from here, which is a lot more responsibility, a lot more strategic work. And I must say that, you know, a lot of the Big Chinese companies are getting very mature in how they operate and how they do marketing and increasingly look outside of China and how they do things. So they have no choice, but to kind of somehow apply global standards and how they work. Bring some of the good things that made them successful in China to other places, but then also learn how to operate in different cultures, different markets, which was extremely interesting for us to partner with our clients on that on that journey. That's great. Yeah. And obviously with all those awards, I mean, there's some things that just haven't changed in 70 years in advertising, which is, you know, the clear messaging and having the amazing creative and doing the distribution in a, measured intelligent way. And I think as a service business, you have to kind of make adjustments with digital and maybe now AI and other things, but maybe some examples from your clients, some of the things that you've seen about how they're doing stuff on the product side or FMCG side, that's at a faster pace, that's maybe helping them to, because I, I certainly there's downsides to speed and you know, sometimes it's better to go slow to go fast, but maybe some of these clients that you're working with, or maybe some multinationals that have adjusted to be able to compete in China better. Any anecdotes there? Now, pretty much every multinational that operates in China is talking about China for China, China speed, because I think they have realized that doing things the way they do Outside of China, it's not going to make them a success for you. So, there must be something right about China speed because it made many Chinese companies extremely successful. And if you have China speed on one side of the spectrum, you have, you know, global standards and all this kind of stuff, and the processes on, on the other, you know, there's probably a good thing in both. But, Chinese companies are getting more mature in how they do that. Multinationals have to adapt to how they operate in China and the ones that get that blend, right, they're usually successful. And we work with a lot of automotive companies in China. So it's actually our biggest category. And you know, that's insane what's been going on there in the last few years and how much the local EV players have, you know, start up the market, became extremely successful and really changed the entire industry. And you look at all the multinational, traditional car companies in China, and many of them, you know, have been extremely successful in China selling millions of cars. They now have no choice but to adapt to China speed and you look at Chinese EV companies to kind of launch a new platform takes them 12 to 18 months. You know, multinationals used to take them five years to come up with a new model on your car platform. So you cannot be successful operating like that in a place like China. So now all of them are kind of talking about China for China strategies. And there's, you know, many different ways of doing that, but you have to adopt, otherwise you won't be successful in this place. But I must also say, over the years, there have been many, many instances where Chinese companies popped up somewhere, and then people said like, "Oh, they're gonna destroy Coca Cola, or they're gonna destroy VW, or they're gonna destroy whatever other multinational companies." Those companies, many of them haven't survived or they've been kind of one, one hit wonders. And so I do think, you know, there's a lot of good things that multinational companies can bring into China, you know, global processes, the processes, product development, go to market, all this kind of stuff but you have to adapt it to, to kind of a China environment. And then at the same time, like I said to you before, there's a lot of Chinese companies, you know, they come to us because they want to become more international in the way they operate. And when we work with those Chinese companies, it's not just doing ads for them. Actually, that's a tiny part of what you do. A lot of it is to help them set up global marketing practices, operating procedures, budgeting processes, structure, I mean, they literally come to us and say, "Oh, help me set up a marketing department or help me set up a global marketing organization." You know, that's often not just done by us alone, but we work sometimes with, you know, companies like McKinsey, Accenture, whatever, Deloitte, but these are, you know, very interesting, you know, jobs we have with them. I also think that because we were talking about what we do as an agency, I think many people still haven't quite understood how much our business has evolved over the years because doing ads and TV commercials our business has become extremely technology driven, right? So, a lot of what we do now is working with some of the big kind of marketing platforms, Salesforce, Adobe, stuff like that. In China, a little bit less so, but globally we have, you know, a huge set up in India. Doing Salesforce operation, Adobe, marketing cloud operation stuff like that, you know, helping our clients a lot, figuring out data, how to work, you know, how to build first party data. And so, it's a very different business. We're not just doing ads and TV commercials anymore. That's actually a small part of our business. Okay. Yeah. And given all the possibilities you have now with technology we're doing, you know, I think things get a lot more personalized and obviously, very digital driven and, you know, you look at China, 90 percent of media spending is digital. So there is basically no more analog or traditional advertising that's more or less gone and everything we do now is digital, social, is absolutely massive. Everything we do is driving to commerce. So, our business is very different than what it was 20 years ago. And I think much, much less MadManny than it used to be. And the sheer volume of what we do now is just crazy in comparison to 20 years ago, just because you can through technology. You know, 20 years ago, we did one TV commercial and a few print ads for a client a year. Now we do, you know, 10,000 pieces of content and a lot of them technology driven AI supported. So it's become pretty technical. What we do. Obviously, creativity is still absolutely crucial to what we do. And, that's really the only thing that differentiates us from every other company and you'd be a company that clients should come to when they want, you know, a different take on things and they want creativity to get them to be somewhere where they're not at the moment. So that's still extremely important. And, you know, in China, I think at the moment, but maybe in a, phase where creativity is maybe not as appreciated as it should be, simply because, you know, you can do so many things for so little money. And like we talked about before, China speed, you do it, it doesn't work. It was something else. But you know, all this gazillion tons of content that companies produce at the moment, they still need to make sense and line up to something. And as you know, as I know, good content is something that people will engage with more than bad content. And you get so much stuff every single day. How do you stand out as a company or brand from this massive amount of content that's out there and the 0.001 second attention span that people have today. I mean, if you have anything, that's not grabbing you in a second, you're gone. Right. So that's still very important for us. And where we try to make a difference by doing things more creatively than others. Fantastic. Love it. And share just one final thought about AI and how that's impacting and going to impact what you're working on and how you're leveraging it. And it will make a huge difference, to our industry and many industries, I guess, it's still very early days. But I can see it already now, just several areas where it makes a huge difference. So, you know, on strategy, for example, we use AI, you know, for research, for example, we use AI for consumer insights, where we can just get data at a fingertip that took us weeks and weeks of work before. And same when it comes to production, for example, we can do a lot of stuff now with AI, you know, to use massive amounts of content, develop new content, different content. So, it will drive, I think a lot of efficiency in our business. So I think a lot of the kind of lower level tasks, I think will be automated and will be AI driven. Which I think is good for us because, you know, we spend so much time on pretty basic tasks at the moment, which, you know, in the future we don't. So hopefully we can repurpose some of those resources that we don't need anymore to do that, to do much more value added tasks. And I think that's, you know, to me where the world is going with AI, that a lot of the basic tasks will be automated, will be AI driven. And then you still need to add value on top of it. I mean, like, you know, ChatGPT, Mid-Journey, whatever other AI tools you use, it's not going to give you a final answer. You still need to craft it. You still need to analyze it, interpret it. And then you get to a better results. So I think our business probably will change to that, that you know, we use AI to give us a lot of the basics and then we add value on top of it. And that should, you know, drive creativity and better outcome. So I'm not worried about it. I'm excited about it. Excited indeed. That's great. Excellent. Chris, really, really appreciate it. Amazing journey. I love it. Looking forward to even more adventures from your side and yeah, excellent to catch up and hope to see you when I'm next. I'm going to say hi. Thanks so much for having me. Enjoy the sun. And I'm going to work. You're going to the beach. That's. I'm going to the jungles for a hike. I like to rock, heavy backpack. I'm going to the jungle in the WPP campus in Shanghai. That urban jungle, indeed, yeah. Watch out. All right, man, thank you. Thanks for having me, Richard.