The Table California
The Table is a church family in Arroyo Grande, California. Our desire is to give Jesus His desire...a house where He can be Himself with His family. This podcast hosts the weekly teachings from our Sunday evening gatherings and occasionally supplemental conversations throughout the week.
The Table California
Jesus Among the Lampstand
Neil and Lindsey sit down for a discussion on the importance of community within the church, emphasizing that God's design for His church is to function as a family where members are interconnected and grow together in faith. Individuals are not meant to live in isolation but rather thrive in a supportive community that reflects the love of Christ. The church is the central hub of God's authority and power, with Jesus walking among His people, which signifies a unique presence and purpose within the gathered body.
The conversation discusses why some individuals may struggle to connect with a church community, such as past church hurt, difficulty finding a suitable church, or fear of vulnerability. It suggests that these issues often stem from a self-focused perspective, where personal experiences overshadow the collective mission of the church, which is centered on Jesus.
The conversation acknowledges the reality of pain that many of us have experienced at the hands of churches and other believers but insists that God's design for the church remains unchanged…and healing must come from God rather than from seeking the perfect church experience. This is an encouragement to trust that God will lead us to a healthy church family that fosters growth and maturity in faith, while also recognizing that the scars from past hurts can become a testament to one's journey in choosing forgiveness and love.
We also discuss the issue of church consumerism, where individuals approach church with a mindset focused on personal preferences rather than a commitment to community and God’s design for His house. This attitude can lead to a lack of genuine connection and spiritual stagnation. We encourage believers to surrender their preferences and seek God's heart for their involvement in a church, emphasizing that true growth occurs in the context of deep, committed relationships.
Finally, the conversation concludes with a call to action for those who may feel disconnected or disillusioned with the church. We urge individuals to engage with their local church, serve, and build relationships, as this is where they will find the support and accountability necessary for spiritual growth. We also recommend various resources, including books and podcasts, to help individuals deepen their understanding of the church's role in God's plan. Overall, we hope to present a compelling case for the importance of the church as a community where believers can grow, heal, and fulfill their God-given purpose together.
This is a supplemental discussion to last Sunday's message, "Clothed in Glory: How Relationships Shape Our Spiritual Garments." We would encourage you to take a listen.
Additional resources mentioned in the podcast:
Habitation church: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/habitation-church/id1578531408
The King's People: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-kings-people/id449544873
Cross Culture Chicago: https://crossculturechicago.org/messages
For more information on THE TABLE please visit:
www.thetablecalifornia.com
How do we begin?
Speaker 2:I don't know. Look, I just looked at this. This is so funny. I looked down, I had this written in the margin. It's from Psalm 81. The Lord says to Israel Remember my faithfulness and open your mouth wide and I will fill it.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 2:So thank you, Jesus.
Speaker 1:So let's open our mouths. Thank you, Jesus. So let's open our mouths. So this past Sunday we talked about the church, God's design for his church being a community, a family connected to one another. And by way of this rhythm of life on life with one another, we become conformed to the image of Jesus, we mature, we grow, we become who we actually are. But we don't exist in vacuums. We're not designed to live isolated, we're designed to live in community, and that's what the church is. And so we've talked about this, just you and I, in the past.
Speaker 2:So we're going to try to talk about it again.
Speaker 1:Just you and I, but not really Just you and I, but not really. It's our understanding of Scripture and God's design and church history that the authority that Jesus gives to his people is concentrated in the church in a very unique way, in a way that it is not concentrated in individuals or in separate ministries that would admit. We are not a church. We are, you know, a ministry to the homeless. We are, whatever it might be, god intends for his church to be the nucleus of all of his atomic power, atomic power to be the place where everything in the kingdom, in this world, issues from and through.
Speaker 1:Jesus says in Revelation, chapter two, he says I am the one who walks among the lampstands. And just before that, at the end of chapter one, he says the lampstand is the church. He's the one who's walking in the midst of his church. Is he with us as individuals? Yes, amen, he will never leave us nor forsake us. But there's something special and unique about his family gathered together as his church that pulls him in and he walks among. Ok, that was my introduction. Now over to you.
Speaker 2:Well, as you were talking, I was just thinking you know, why would Jesus choose to house his power and authority primarily in the church, like, why can individuals not carry it alone, isolated to the degree that it can be found buried within the body, being the body? And um, first thing that came to mind was it's because his church is connected to him in love and to each other in love as a body that's dependent on each other. So that if I'm walking in a measure of authority, there will be things that I'm more measured about how I say it, when I say it, the manner in which I say it, because my motivating factor is love. I love you as I love myself, because we are connected as one body.
Speaker 2:And I think that's really beautiful, yeah.
Speaker 1:What do you mean by held together by love?
Speaker 2:Well, I think Paul addresses it in Ephesians 4.
Speaker 2:When Jesus ascended, he gave gifts to man, and it talks about all of the offices that we're very familiar with.
Speaker 2:And Paul goes on to say the purpose of these is to come up underneath to serve and to build up the body.
Speaker 2:And then he goes on to say in Ephesians 4, 15. Rather speaking truth and love, we are to grow up in every way into him, who is the head, and to Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. So the design is that the body what I would say is the local church is an expression of that is that we are being fit together and built up in him, who is love. And as we do this, we're learning how to prefer others over myself, how to bear your burdens, how to walk out Corinthians 13 with each other, you know, patient with each other, believing the best in each other. When we are relationally fit together in Christ like that, then if I have a prophetic word for you, I'm going to measure it carefully and I'm going to have to see how that impacts you and I think as we're doing, life together yes you're going to see the result of it.
Speaker 2:And I love you as I love myself, you know.
Speaker 1:And so because these things are happening within the body. That's why God can entrust such authority to a collection of people. They're going through the process that God intends for every one of his children to go through, but it only happens through community, through life together, through discipleship, through accountability. Life together through discipleship, through accountability. These gifts were given so that the body could be built up and matured and come to a measure of fullness Ephesians 1, 22 and 23. And he put all things under his feet. The father put all things under the son's feet and gave him Jesus to be head over. The church is the fullness of Christ in the earth. The whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body. The its share causes growth of the body. The body is causing growth of the body. How? By bumping into one another and hacking off those unseemly, uncrucified parts of our personality that are going to be pampered in the prayer closet.
Speaker 2:Let's be honest about it.
Speaker 1:It's true, you know, but when we encounter, like I mentioned on Sunday, this intersection of my life with yours, that collision is going to cause my flesh to rear its head up, be exposed and identified so that it can be dealt with and crucified According to the effect of working by which every part does its share, causing growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. A hand disconnected from the body is gross. That's more in common with a crime scene than with the gospel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1:Not only that is it an abnormality? It's an aberration, it's unnatural, but it's the same thing with individuals. We must be connected to the body. So I think it's been our experience that the two main reasons that someone's not going to be connected to a church body is church hurt. Is church hurt or they can't just find that they can't find a church that meets their needs, for what they are looking for in a church or whatever might be what would you say to those two situations?
Speaker 2:I think there's a third. Can I add a third? Ok, I think there's a third and I think, well, I know we've seen it often, and I think, well, I know we've seen it often, and that is there are people who go to many different places required to be planted in a place where people can see your mess and have access to your heart. It's scary.
Speaker 1:So it's almost like a self-preservation type thing.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think so.
Speaker 1:So we've got church hurt, we've got just can't find a good one, and scared to be open and vulnerable. Oh, did you think of it before?
Speaker 2:no, no, no I'm like blown away because I'm just now seeing the. The common denominator in every one of those is self me. Yeah, I'm hurt, I I'm afraid, I'm vulnerable. I don't like this. It's me, me, me driven.
Speaker 1:And the church exists for.
Speaker 2:Jesus, jesus yeah. That's a great great point, I would say that the ones who have experienced church hurt, that's real pain. Church hurt pain is one of the more difficult heart injuries to heal from, because you have made yourself vulnerable, you have exposed your heart and it's gotten wounded or broken.
Speaker 1:What do you say to the person who says I haven't just been hurt once. I've said the same thing you're saying, so I got back in, I tried again at a different church and I was hurt again? The ones who have been hurt multiple times and they're like I just cannot find a healthy church. What am I supposed to do?
Speaker 2:I believe oftentimes within local church communities we can hurt each other more than the world does, and I don't know why. I don't understand why. But I believe that the healing for those wounds we have to look to Jesus for that. We can't look to a better church experience to heal that wound. We can't look to a person seeing that they were wrong and apologizing and that heals the wound in my heart.
Speaker 2:Like hurt has to be healed by god, we have to go to him to get that healed. And as long as we carry that hurt in us and we go from place to place to place looking for it to be healed in a church, Like people can't heal that hurt. Only God can heal that hurt and he will do it. I'm confident that he will. I mean as sure as I'm confident that it's his heart to heal limbs and bodies that are out of order. I believe that it's his heart and his nature to heal hearts that are hurting when they're given over to him. Part of navigating the church hurt and getting ourselves back into connection with the body is going through a process of letting God heal our hearts and not expecting another or better community will do it because we're flawed. You know, we're still figuring it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think it's anything new that God's people have misrepresented him and hurt one another. That story is as old as time, but it doesn't change God's design, like it doesn't change his plan. His plan is the church. I mean, we've had seasons in church history where not only are believers hurting one another, they're killing one another, but the plan doesn't change. Now that kind of sounds insensitive to those who have experienced church hurt. We have experienced church hurt too, but it still doesn't change God's design.
Speaker 1:I love the point that you pointed out. The people are not going to be the solution. Jesus is always the solution and ultimately he's going to be found within his family. So my counsel would be believe that God is going to bring you to a healthy church family that can mature you and grow you and conform you into his image, and that you will be part of that fullness that fills all things. Until that day happens, also, be confident, knowing that every wound that you've experienced at the hands of other believers is leaving a glorious mark on you. Like Jesus himself bears the marks of his suffering. Like right now there's a man seated in heaven with scars on his body, and those scars are glorious In the same way, every time that we choose the way of the cross, we choose to forgive our brother who hurts us. We choose not to carry offense, we choose to believe the best in God's people. It's going to leave a mark and it's going to be beautiful.
Speaker 1:Okay what about the ones who cannot find? And I've even felt this way in years past, like man, we just can't find a good church, like we try and just having a hard time finding a good church. What would you say to those who cannot find a good church? Why do you keep doing this to?
Speaker 2:me Get over yourself. No, I would say that.
Speaker 1:Okay, how about this? What would you say to Lindsay 10, 15 years ago, however many years ago, who is saying those same things? Can't find a good church. I'm trying and I just can't find anything, so we just won't go.
Speaker 2:What would I say to myself? Get over yourself, I would. But what I would say to someone else might be, might be. I would ask the Lord, like what does his heart desire for me, for my family, and calls my heart to line up with what his heart is for me? I think, probably along the way, you start to surrender things that you think you have to have things that feel super important to you. You yield those things because you're carrying his heart for where he wants you to be, and then he has your yes, because he has a place for everybody. He has a family for everybody, a place for everybody, he is a family for everybody. I think we're just aware of our likes and our dislikes and our preferences, you know.
Speaker 2:So I think it's being willing to surrender your preferences. Get his heart and say yes to where he's leading you and then leave your preferences at the door.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. One thing to say to that this idea that we could pick and choose our church based on our own personal preferences and what we would like to see in a church. It is a modern invention, it's a first world problem. Yeah, like hundreds of years ago there was one church in town, is one church in town in places in the world right now there is one church meeting in one living room and it's long distance to get to the next living room where christians are gathering. So this idea that that we could find our perfect flavor within a church, it is more of an indication of the state of our flesh in the state of our own personal preferences than it is the state of the church within our city.
Speaker 2:Okay. And then the third one, the ones who are disconnected from a local body because they're going from place to place to place, so they're doing a lot of church activity but they're not planted anywhere. What would you say to those folks?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Trying to season my words with salt like you did, I would say you're not connected to a body. You may be saved, you may be born again, but you are not connected to his body. So you are in. You're very susceptible, you're in a dangerous position because time and again we've seen where that way of living leads to either plateauing in your walk with Jesus and just kind of leveling out and not progressing and maturing, or experiencing some sort of crisis, whether it's an attack from the enemy or just life, and it just throws you off the rails. You don't have God's people around you to help you through that crisis, you know. So you're very susceptible. Like we said on Sunday, the lion is looking for that one zebra who's isolated out on the fringes of the pack, not the ones who are connected in the very center. The enemy is prowling around like a lion looking for someone to devour, and the easy pickings, the low hanging fruit, are the ones who are disconnected from the body.
Speaker 1:I would also ask some serious questions of why? Why are you not giving yourself over to the hard work of relationship? Why are you satisfying your craving for fellowship, but doing it in a surface level, by just grazing and attending as opposing to committing yourself to something and going deep, like where actual relationship happens. My question would be why Is it a wound that you've suffered in the past? Let's talk to that. Let's ask Jesus to heal that. Is it insecurity, a fear of being vulnerable? Is it just personal preference? Like maybe you just prefer to be alone? Like all of those things are real. But like, let's talk through that. Let's ask Jesus to come in and heal those places so that you can be connected to his body.
Speaker 2:I think oftentimes it's a reflection of, I think that the second two, both the ones who can't find a place that they just like enough to land and to plant themselves, and then to the ones who go to a whole bunch of different places but aren't really planted anywhere. The common thing there something common is that it's a reflection of, like church, consumerism, which is I'm coming to receive to take, to take, to take, to take, and it's like I want to go from encounter to encounter, to encounter, to encounter.
Speaker 2:And those encounters with Jesus, as beautiful as they are, they don't take root into your life until you have the friction of community and even the tenderness that it produces in your heart for those seeds, those encounter seeds to sink down deep, that's in community. It's the constant tilling over of the soil in your heart. You know those encounter. Seeds will produce fruit when the soil is tender.
Speaker 1:within community, yeah, so I think we see from Paul's letter specifically to the Ephesians and the consistent teaching of scripture. The church, the family of God, is the place where we become conformed to the image of Jesus. Where we are, you know, we're led, we're taught, we're prophesied over, we're encouraged, we're edified, we're built up, we're counseled, we're shown the mysteries of scripture. Where we experience and we share the spirit with one another, like we're going through the process of becoming like Jesus, his way, which is with his people. I believe that Jesus sees that and he recognizes he can trust heavenly things to that company of people.
Speaker 1:It's not that the isolated individual isn't gifted, isn't anointed for ministry, but I have to believe that this individual is setting themselves up for a possibility of injury to themselves and to others if they continue to walk isolated and disconnected from this family that is conforming itself to the image of Jesus Like.
Speaker 1:My question would be to the isolated individual okay, what about your blind spots? What about your weaknesses that you may or may not know about yourself? How are you walking out humility, forgiveness, meekness, service, in a disconnected way from the body, like? What does that look like? And if you're not walking in those things, what makes you think that you can handle the weight of the anointing that you carry Like we've seen endless stories of individuals with very heavy anointings who end up getting crushed under the weight of this gifting because they're not connected to a body, they're not accountable. That's a whole other topic for another day. So I believe that God's authority is entrusted to his church because it's within the church that God's people are growing up into a measure of fullness that can carry that authority.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess my heart, even in having this conversation and even if there's just one person that hears it and it shifts their mindset about the value and the beauty of the local church, it's worth it. The heart of God is for his local church. He loves her and he wants to give himself to her man. You know what's amazing. I'm sorry this doesn't have to be no man, whatever.
Speaker 1:This is amazing. Let her meet, let her cook, let the dog hunt.
Speaker 2:Are you talking about him? No, oh, you know what's amazing to me? I'm sitting here looking at what Paul says in Ephesians 3, when he says To me, though I'm the very least of all saints, this grace was given to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ and to bring light for everyone. What is the plan of the mystery hidden for all ages in God? Who created all things Like? What is this mystery, paul? I want to see, so that, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God might be made known to the rulers and authorities in heavenly places. It is the mandate on the church to make the wisdom of God known to the rulers and the authorities in heavenly places, in heavenly places.
Speaker 2:So it's no odd thing that Paul lays this out and goes straight into a prayer for the body to be rooted and grounded in love, like love, has to be the governor for the body to fit and hold it together so that it is equipped to carry the wisdom of God and be a testimony to the powers and principalities of the air.
Speaker 1:So good.
Speaker 2:I love apostles. I love that they tell you what you need to know and then they pray it out in heavenly places, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I wrote a couple things down from just different sources that I've read over the years. I want to read some of this. Some of it's my own thoughts, but the majority of it is influenced by others. God-given authority is given to the God-established church. That was my own.
Speaker 1:Whoa Read it again for us us god-given authority is given to the god I deserve that god-given authority is given to the god-established church, watchman knee. He says this god's riches today are among the church. The lord Lord's word upon this rock I'll build my church is very clear. The result is the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. This promise is for the church, not for individuals. Many times it's very difficult for individuals to resist the enemy, but as soon as the church appears, satan is defeated. So good yeah. Watchman Nee says this.
Speaker 1:We can't assume that just because 1,000 people gather together on Sunday that they're the church. Praise God that 1,000 people can be the church, but 1,000 people may still be 1,000 individuals. His point is are those 1,000 people connected in a relationship sharing the spirit with one another, or are they just simply attending a building, like what separates them from, I don't know, a country club? Okay, this is one by a brother named Scott Jathani. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing his name right, but he wrote a book what If Jesus Was Serious About the Church? Highly recommend the book. Super easy to read, really simple. Even has illustrations like drawings and illustrations. Really cool what it's called what if Jesus was serious about the church? He says this long before celebrity pastors smoke machines or four-year coffee bars.
Speaker 2:Four-year.
Speaker 1:Four-year coffee bars. The church was simply a family. In the beginning, the church was a fellowship of men and women centered on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece, where it became a philosophy. Then the church moved to Rome, where it became an institution. Next it moved to Europe, where it became a culture, and finally it moved to America, where it became an enterprise. And when something becomes an enterprise like that, it becomes consumer-based. This is what I want, this is what I prefer. Well, let's cater to what you want, so let's make church what it is that you want, and we lose sight of the fact that church belongs to Jesus. What does he want in his house? He wants to see his family coming together. Like any father, he wants his kids to be together, growing, maturing, expressing love for one another, not perfect, but getting there by way of the Spirit, being shared with one another.
Speaker 2:I'm afraid I might cry.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I feel there's been a couple of times when you're reading in Revelation.
Speaker 1:I'm going to read that again. I quoted it, but let me just read it how it's written. The end of Revelation 1,. Jesus says the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand and the seven golden lampstands. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches. To the angel of the church of Ephesus, write these things, says he who holds the seven stars in his right hand and who walks in the midst of the golden lampstands. And he goes on to say I know your work, I know your labor. He walks amongst the lampstand. That's where Jesus is going for a walk and that's where I want to be.
Speaker 1:So our encouragement would be if you are in a church and it's not perfect, it's okay. Be planted, serve, pray for grace to be poured out, pray for revival, pray for God to pour out his spirit, spirit out. If you're in a church and you love it, praise God, invite others to come, not for the building up of a ministry brand, but if you found a healthy place, man, invite people there. If you are not connected to a church, we would encourage you to get connected to a church. Begin the process of becoming family with people. It takes time, so go ahead and begin.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Learn how to forgive, learn how to cook meals for people, learn how to watch other people's kids, learn how to walk in humility. Did I say learn how to serve?
Speaker 2:No, did I say learn how to forgive.
Speaker 1:I think so.
Speaker 2:Worth repeating yes.
Speaker 1:And just believe. Believe that this is God's design for how he's going to demonstrate his kingdom to our generation. It's through his people. Okay, so finally, some recommendations. For folks who they can drink from other wells, who have good understanding of the church, I would say Bob Gladstone. He's written a couple of books, phenomenal. Look him up on YouTube either under Bob Gladstone or Robert Gladstone, watchman Nee, phenomenal book Normal Christian Church Life. He also has another one Further Talks on the Church Life. Two phenomenal books.
Speaker 1:Another one would be Art Katz a little deeper, a little more dense, thick, rich, but great insight on God's eternal plan and purpose for the church. And then maybe some podcasts, others that you can listen to Our friends in Orlando, florida, Habitation Church. They put up their messages every week. They speak with a similar DNA, they carry the same heart for God's church. Habitation Church, the King's People in Charlotte, north Carolina same thing. Cross Culture Church in Chicago same thing.
Speaker 2:And what else. I think we can put the links up to those in the podcast description to some of those resources which would be good, I would add, while this isn't you know a human being alive today, or a particular book, but I would add to that the book of Ephesians.
Speaker 1:The living word.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, because we spent a lot of time in Ephesians today and it's one of my favorite books of the Bible, because it reminds us who Christ is, who we are to be in him, how we are to be found in him, and then how we are to be together as the body, as the church. And it's beautifully written. Paul's an amazing writer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so read through the book of Ephesians slowly, prayerfully, prayerfully, in the spirit. You know, get some good commentaries that flesh some of these things out. Yeah, amen, good, good point, all right, anything else?
Speaker 2:That's it.