In our sixth episode, Lisa Prior, President of The Boston Club is joined by Jodi Detjen, DBA. Jodi serves as the Associate Dean at Suffolk University and is a managing partner of Orange Grove Consulting, a women-owned business specializing in research-based leadership development and bias-removal.
Together they discuss:
Tune in then subscribe to the show and connect with Jodi Detjen, DBA and The Boston Club on LinkedIn.
In our sixth episode, Lisa Prior, President of The Boston Club is joined by Jodi Detjen, DBA. Jodi serves as the Associate Dean at Suffolk University and is a managing partner of Orange Grove Consulting, a women-owned business specializing in research-based leadership development and bias-removal.
Together they discuss:
Tune in then subscribe to the show and connect with Jodi Detjen, DBA and The Boston Club on LinkedIn.
Welcome to Speaking of Allyship, a podcast of the Boston Club, New England's premier women's leadership organization. I'm your host, Lisa Pryor, President. Here we bring you personal stories and proven leadership practices for allyship, including what it means, how to be an ally, and how to receive or ask for allyship too. Leadership is expansive in the workplace, across gender, race, orientation, identity, or how about just thinking differently? This podcast brings you together with amazing business and thought leaders of greater Boston, Massachusetts, and New England to hear their personal stories and journeys and how their experiences and lessons learned shaped their leadership approach. You'll take away insights and tips, learn how allyship and mentorship can play a role in your career and how you can pay it forward, and leadership practices on everything from how to create inclusive work environments to how to be brave and prepared for challenging conversations. Let's get started. Hi and welcome back to Speaking of Allyship, a podcast of the Boston Club. I'm Lisa Pryor, president. I'm thrilled to be here today with Boston Club member Jody Detjen, who serves as associate Dean at Suffolk University and Managing Partner of Orange Grove Consulting. Jodi, welcome. Thanks, Lisa. Fun to be here. Oh, so glad to have you. And Jodi, can you just for a moment just to get us grounded around your area of expertise, especially as it relates to women's leadership, your work at both Suffolk and at Orange Grove Consulting? Yes, so my area of research is really in change management and women's leadership and inclusion. So those are my main areas. And what I really focus on at Orange Grove Consulting is really how do we bring inclusion into the operational aspects of organizations? So how do we operationalize inclusion? In other words, make it so there's just another business process like any other. At Suffolk University, I'm really focused in on how can we be innovative and shift our product and services and teaching to be more aligned with the way the market's going in terms of learning. So that, and it's funny, because what I love is that we do some training as well at Orange Grove. And so There's such joint, I always call it the Venn Diagram, right? There's a lot of good overlap where I can, the things I learned in one will help you in the other. So it's quite good. I love it. And it's going to be such a rich ground for us today in this podcast. Our topic is allyship. But, you know, how do we think about allyship? How do we operationalize it? How do we innovate beyond the ways that maybe traditional ways we've had of understanding it. So thank you for being here. Where I'd love to start, though, is just a little bit about you and tell us a little bit about your own leadership journey. Yeah, you know, it's funny, when we researched our first book, The Orange Line, we talked. To like 120 women about their leadership journey, and it was this big, giant zigzag. And that was totally my experience, too, personally. You know, as women, we get sucked in the head in so many different ways. For me, you know, in my 20s, I always knew, grew up, that I wanted to be a leader, but I didn't really know what that meant. And then in my 20s, I got, you know, I was riddled with anxiety. I couldn't really figure out what to do. I was a high performer, but a lot of performance anxiety. So it took me a while to work myself out of it. But it was really interesting. And I'll bring in the Boston Club here because I was talking to Ellen Kiley, who's also a Boston Club member and a friend of mine. And she said, You should join the Boston Club. And I'm like, Oh, I don't think I can do that. You know, I'm not really a leader. And she's like. Yes, you are. Of course you can. And that's an example of allyship, right? She was sort of like saying, What, are you crazy? Of course you are! But I, in my head, put this thing in my head that I'm not a leader. I am less than, because I had, I don't even know what I was comparing myself to. And so what I found is that I have, across my career, all these little times, times when other people have shown me leadership. I'll give you another example. When my youngest was probably 10 years old, I got asked to be the president of our local little league. And that was another example of somebody saying, and this was sponsorship, actually, somebody saying, You would make a really good leader. We've had some trouble, and we think you'd make a good leader." And I was like, Really? And I'm looking around, like, Is there anybody else in the room? And they're like, No, we want you. And it was beautiful because it showed me, it took me a long time to start to see, Actually, I do have some skillsets. And so all these people along the way. Have opened the door or pushed me through and given me this reflection that enabled me to take the risk. And for me, my. Leadership journey has always been about risk. And the latest one has been, you know, my current dean of Sawyer Business School, who tapped me on the shoulder as a non-traditional candidate for associate dean role and said, I think you'll be good. And so she promoted me into this role, and I'm having a blast. And, you know, it's like, all the time, other people saw something in me. And I think that's what enabled me to, on my journey. I love that. And well, thank you for sharing that. I'm really curious. You described yourself as having this high performance, but high anxiety about performance. What's the source of that? When did you realize that that was a sort of internal dynamic for you? Well, that's a whole psychological journey that, you know, I won't go into. But I think what it is is like as we mature, we start to realize the barriers that are in our way. And I had epiphany and it really took the birth of my second child, which I talked extensively, about in my earlier talks. You know, when my second son was born, I got socked upside the head and I got labeled with all the female stereotypes of motherhood that are prevalent in US society. I thought I had to be that. Even had friends talk about allyship. I had friends who were telling me that I should be that, you know, the anti-ally, or allyship for their, for their version of what motherhood. And so it took me to hit rock bottom where I was really down and depressed and thought I had no value in the world. I was making like a third of what I was making before. And it took that and then a lot of work. It took me like five years to crawl out from that and start to realize my capability level. So I think that was a very personal journey, for me, but literally sucked. It was a very heavy burden, and it took me a long time to work through it. Thanks for sharing that. I think for women who choose motherhood. You've described, I don't know if crossroads is the right word, but there's an identity shift for yourself, and that sometimes others impose on us as well. And I think we have many members of our community at the Boston Club and beyond who can relate to that, either for themselves or to another woman that they care about. As you look back, what experiences, you said, kind of took a while to kind of move beyond that. What helped you? What helped you sort of get... I also appreciated that you talked about the expectations of what it means to be a parent and especially a mother in the United States, what helped you move on? Well, what helped me move beyond that is a lot of my research, right? So my research really is grounded in this anxiety, like, why is it that I don't fit this mold? And I found allies along the way. So my business partner, who was my first co-author, Kelly Watson, had a similar experience. And so us working together through it and then researching and find out that a ton, you know, in our research, over 120 women, qualitative research, tons of women had this experience to the point where we were able to label it as these societal cultural norms that says, if you are a woman, here's how you're supposed to behave. You're supposed to look good, you're supposed to be nice, and you're supposed to avoid conflict and do it all. So here's the thing. What you have to do is you have to find allies who allow you to question these norms. And then our methodology is talking about, then you change the way that norm exists in your brain. Instead of, Oh, I must do it all. In my case, at that particular time, I must be a perfect mother, and I must be a perfect worker. Or in fact, I really shouldn't be a perfect worker, because if I'm a perfect mother, I can't be a perfect worker, right? So reframe that as, Actually, frankly, work is a joy to me, and I am a much better parent when I work. And my husband and I happen to be in a co-parenting situation. My husband is a great parent too. And he has equal responsibility. So when I started to reframe that, now that took a lot of renegotiation, and a lot of of extra help, but that looking at the world from a different perspective changed everything. And then once you reach, once you change that view of world, then you start, can start to redefine what you wanna be and how you wanna live. And so then I turned it from a world of constraint to a world of possibility to like use a cliche, but in essence, that's what happened. All of a sudden, I, cause I literally could not do it all. And then I realized, I'll never forget cause there's this one time my son, I'm downtown teaching at Suffolk. And my son calls me up and he's like in middle school, mom, I forgot my lacrosse gear. And I'm like, okay. So I don't know what you want me to do because I'm at school. And by the time I get there, your game's over. You're gonna have to figure it out. So we figured it out. And so I realized it wasn't about me solving that for him. It was actually about enabling him to solve it for himself. So it's a small example, but over and over and over again, I realized these norms that we've put people in, These boxes are so constraining, but we're the ones keeping ourselves in the boxes. So we're the ones that have to change the box, because society's perfectly happy. With us being in a box. Well, and perfect being an interesting adjective there, because you touched on norms that we can take ownership of in our own minds to be the perfect at whatever, and your own journey of taking charge changing those messages for, for yourself. And the importance of a good partner, right? In that process, you mentioned. Well, let's be real. It doesn't mean that it wasn't Rocky. It doesn't mean somebody, I remember one time I was talking to a group of women, and I was saying, you know, we manage with Google Calendar. And she goes, Oh, that sounds horrible. And I said, Actually, it's one of the most empowering things I know, because I'm not, it's not my responsibility. It's a shared Google Calendar. And we figured out with a shared Google Calendar. It wasn't more work, it was just the calendar. And it It was like, she was like, oh, because what she wasn't accounting for was the fact that in her head was the calendar. That she had control over. And that's actually a ton of work that she wasn't accounting for. And this is the other problem. So much of women's work is hidden and invisible, and we have to make it visible first to ourselves because we're the first ones that will be the stopgap. When something needs to get done, we step in. Well, if we always step in, then people know that we'll step in, and it's this whole enabling cycle. So all that is how I got through my leadership journey. That's tremendous. And there's support in there. There's your colleague who you started comparing notes with. It kind of brings us back full circle to allyship and the topic of our conversation. So. Curious to hear, as you think about allyship, how would you define it? What does allyship mean to to you? Yeah, I think when I think about allyship, it's really about supporting people, helping them get barriers out of their way, making things easier for them. It's also about maybe providing a mirror and some reflection so that people can see themselves in a different perspective. So for example, let's just say that somebody has a problem with a budget problem and they need to find some money. So I can say, well, actually I've got some money over here, somebody over here, let me just pull it together there, solve the problem, right? You know, I can solve the problem of supporting that person. To me, that's allyship. The other thing I think that's really important is that it's intentional. So I gave you an example earlier about when I became a mother and how much pressure I got from women to conform. Women. Men too, but predominantly women. So that is also a form of allyship. So for them, it felt like support, but it was unconscious. They were unconsciously supporting me in the way that they defined. Motherhood. And so it was actually quite limiting and painful for me. So there was like the counter, the anti-allyship, because it was unintentional. I think they were trying to be supportive, but because it was unconscious, it was non-intentional, that they missed the negative impact of it. So that's the other thing, like, when we think about Allyship, it's always like this do-gooder, here I am to save the day. Allyship is not about saving the day. It's about supporting people. It's almost like servant leadership. I think that's what allyship is. You said something that struck me as very powerful earlier, which is the ways that you were thinking, I don't fit the mold of what it means to be a mother. And this new phrase for us now in this podcast journey of the anti-ally, the anti-allyship, which is, I'm going to help you fit into my mold. And believing I am doing you a favor. And there's something I've heard through the podcast, through our conversations at the Boston Club. We've been taking on these courageous conversations across race, gender identity, and the idea that traditionally there has been a mold of what a leader looks like, what gender that leader is, how they present themselves. And one of the themes that I've heard is, especially for diverse women who talk about, when I don't see someone who looks like me, when I don't think I fit that mold of what that is. Talk to me about allyship in that context, please. Yeah, I think this is tricky. And I don't think we're anywhere close to finding resolution on this. Because I think there's some things, or we don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, right? So there's a lot of people who are anti the way businesses run today. But the one thing about the way businesses run today is they're quite effective and they're quite efficient at producing goods and providing better life for everybody. And we can just look at the statistics, we can look at how many people have phones today and TVs and all this. There's plenty of data that tells us that people are better off materialistically than they were 20 years ago. So the question I think is, is that how do we become more inclusive and keep the good stuff while enabling a broader definition of how we get things done. I'll give you a very specific example. I was talking with somebody at Suffolk about language, and they were talking about what should we teach students and how to write professionally, business-wise. Well, there's a norm of how business writing occurs in the United States. So for example, it's very succinct, it's very crisp, gets straight to the point. The norm is totally different in France or in Saudi Arabia or wherever else you go, the norm is gonna be different, but here in the States, we have a cultural norm. So the question is, you have a bunch of diverse people, do you teach them that norm Or do you try to change the norm? So here's the thing, changing that norm is huge. Like it will take a lot. So we need to enable people to follow that norm so that they get into a place where they can start to change the norm. We, for example, as an institution at Suffolk, can't change that normal by ourselves, we can't. It's not possible. But what we can do is while training people to have these skill sets, we can bring in the question and start to ask, you know, bring in a panel, for example, of experts and start to talk about these things so that people can start to think about it. We plant the seeds and then conversations happen and things start to change. So for example, I think a lot of organizations have started to ask themselves, I'll give you an example actually. In one of the clients that we worked with, they were hiring people, it was a service organization. And one of the things they did was they had an open networking event at the end of the all day interviews. They brought a bunch of students in and they interviewed them And at the end of the day, he had a networking event. Well, many of these students were underprivileged and really had no skill set at all to be successful in that networking event. So what can we do? Yes, we can give students the skills to network. But we can also talk to that organization and say, When you have a networking event, and you're making hiring decisions based on this, understand that you're leaving out all this group of people who don't have exposure to that because they didn't grew up in families that did that. So realize that you are naturally narrowing the people that you are hiring. So you work at it at both ends. You give people the skills, but you also then work with the organizations to change their decision-making process so they can see how some of the ways they do it that's seemingly objective is actually bringing in bias against people, just based on their background. It goes back to the mold. it goes back to the mold. And so literally it's about making the mold visible. Look at the mold, decide if it's working, and if it's not working, change the mold. But when you change the mold, don't change it with a group of people that are already in power. Change the mold with a wider discussion across the organization to see what that looks like. That's terrific. You know, for example, a lot of companies do ERGs, you know, affinity groups, which are phenomenal as affinity, as allyship groups. But you can't just have people from a certain demographic group all meet together and talk together and do nothing else. It's gotta be, yes, have that. And bring people together to have a conversation about what do we need to change dynamically within the organization to enable more people from this affinity group or that affinity group to be able to be successful. This is about negotiation. Hmm. Say more about that. So I'm a firm believer, again, as I mentioned before, that we can't throw everything out, that we need to bring in just more perspectives and broaden it out. Well, when you bring more perspectives and broaden it out, you've got to negotiate. Because, all right, I've got to figure out what the bottom line is, but I have to care about my employees at the same time. Well, how do I balance those two things? It's not a binary choice. it's a negotiation. And if I'm in a position of cash flow constraint, then I have to prioritize my bottom line. But if I'm in a position of flush, then maybe I can invest a little more in my employees. And then from the employee side, they've got to understand that if you're in a cash flow country, you're in a cash flow crunch. But that also means you gotta have transparent leadership. And then you've got to build the capital, you have to build the investments so that when times are good, you're sharing that with the employees so that they have enough in the bank that when things, when times are tight, they're willing to give a little more. It's a, it's an and, right? But I think too many organizations, it's an or, from both the employee side and the managerial side. Maika Leibbrandt-Demingstein. Say more about the employee side. What's the perception or mindset there? Well, it's interesting, and I haven't quite figured out how to put my finger on this yet, because it's just starting to occur to me that what's starting to happen in the world today is that we've created this either-or-ness in our wider world. And the either-or-ness, you are either with me or you are against me, and the reality is it's so much more nuanced than that. The reality is, when you get down to people's viewpoint of fairness, they actually do want people to be given equal opportunity. So if you have somebody that you're trying to promote, and you say that you want to prioritize people who are underrepresented, right? People can look look at that as unfair. Wow. They're going to put people in power that don't have the skill sets. So you've got to make the skill set definitional. So here's what we require in this role. Those things are non-negotiable. It also means, and we come back to allyship here, it also means that sponsors need to fill the pipeline so that people of all different demographic groups get the opportunities to build their skill sets. You can't just come to the point of promotion and say, Oh, well, we need more people of color in positions of power. We need more women in positions of power. And you haven't prepared anybody. Because then what you're going to do is you're going to put somebody in power who's ill-equipped and they're going to, because there's the one, they'll be representative of everybody in that demographic group and they'll say, oh yeah, yeah, see how bad they are. But they haven't been prepared, of course. And can you talk more about sponsorship? What does that mean? You're using that word. Yes, because I think sponsorship is literally, so I talk a lot about sponsorship being, where you put your social capital on the line. So social capital is basically saying, I'm going to take a professional risk and promote this person or put my brand, my social brand behind this person. We want this person to get a promotion and I'm gonna put my social capital at risk to promote this person. So I need this person to be good, right? Because my brand's now associated with them. So sponsorship is about risking your personal brand, your social capital, and it's very risky. Ironically, white men who have had the predominant power in business today still. Believe, there's some really cool research in this, believe that they have a larger negative impact on their social capital when they risk promoting somebody of a different demographic group. The reality is they have a much lower risk. The reality is the consequences to white men for taking a social capital risk on somebody that's a different demographic group are significantly lower than somebody from the same demographic group taking that social capital risk. So white men have the least salutes, frankly, in doing it. But this also means from a sponsorship perspective is, again, this is not a one-off decision. When you're thinking, we worked with this organization who. Wanted to promote, have a much more diverse executive team. But they hadn't done any of the work in what we call developmental assignments. So exposure to a key client, the ability to work on a really big project, the ability to have some, some managerial experience, all these little steps. And everybody knows what they are, but they're always informal and never tracked. And usually the way it works is somebody will tap you on the shoulder. Joe, I like you. Come on, join my team. And the next time a project is, I want Joe on my team. And so it just then builds. And now Joe's got all this incredible experience because he's been tapped on the shoulder, and nobody's tracking it. So now we want to, we want to promote Jane. But Jane hasn't had any of the opportunities as Joe. So Jane's actually not as prepared, because we haven't done all. So sponsorship is about saying, What are all the steps before we get to promotion that we need to do to prepare the nontraditional demographic groups? So we work with a lot of organizations where we're talking to HR, saying, Look, you got to track this stuff. Who, what are the, what are the steps to get a promotion? And who's getting those steps? Maika Leibbrandt-Halliday That's nice. Maika, it's, what I just heard in that is you're making the mold visible. And that is something that doesn't happen. So, Jodi, you write a lot about power dynamics, and curious, your view, and I'm going to frame this, particularly in the sort of. We're in an endemic now, you know, but we were in those deep, dark days of a pandemic. There was a lot of alarm and research, Mackenzie, about the impacts of the pipeline of women leaders, particularly kind of leaving the workforce and coming back. Can you talk to us about what you see today with what is the state of women's leadership in the workplace. And related to that, what do you observe about the power dynamics today? So I think the state of women's leadership is in flux right now. So I don't think we can actually say. I think there's some data that suggests that women are back in the workforce at the same percentage that they were. There's also a lot of research that talks about how the virtual work, the hybrid work, is very beneficial for women, for people of color, for a lot of dynamics, which I won't get into. And so this move to, we must come back to work is actually detrimental to non-traditional groups. So I think organizations have to look at that. I think that when I look at a macro level, the way leadership is changing is that leadership in today's world is much more collaborative because there are so many more knowledge workers and we need to get people engaged and have conversations and we need to look at perspectives. And I think about what we train in Orange Grove. When I think about what we teach at Suffolk, The model of leadership is what women have been socialized to lead all their life. It's so much more collaborative. It's so much flatter, so much less power-based. This idea, some of the research that I've done, this idea of the power over model, it really doesn't work. And it hurts both men and women in my research. Nobody likes it. Everybody thinks it's unfair. These models are starting to go away because they don't work. You're not gonna get the best of people when they have to sit there and worry about or their boss is gonna come yell at them. So I think women are well-placed because of our socialization to be really good leaders. I don't think it's gonna happen by default. But I also think that, we've been talking to a lot of organizations, it's like, look at the demographics that are coming this way. You've got 60% of college grads are women. Now, we could talk, there's a problem there, but let's leave that aside for a moment. So if you're only really looking at men getting up your pipe, leadership pipeline, there's a problem, because you're getting a smaller number of men now. So, A, that's a problem. The next thing you have to to think about is who is it that we're promoting and what is it that we are? It's about the mold and defining what it is. So you've got to change that mold or at least make it visible and figure out who's getting into it. So I don't think women's leadership is gonna change. I don't think inclusion is gonna change until the mold, it becomes changed. I just don't because today's systems are set up for a different model. That's right. Well, and I, you know, even as we think about all the decades now of research around leadership and power And that is a more recent being the last 30, 40 years where we've really seen that focus. It's in a world where AI is transforming and will transform how we work when the demographic is changing. Even our leadership research, I sometimes wonder, well, how valid can it be in a world where we're looking forward and not backwards at leadership? I'm curious, you have said several times we have to make the mold visible. Yeah. How do you do that? Well, as a simple first step, you know. It's an individual level, you have to examine where you put your social capital. Who do you, whose shoulder do you tap? And why do you choose that shoulder to tap? And you have to ask yourself, Who do you give the opportunities to? Who do you support in meetings? When somebody has an idea, who's, who do you support? Who do you interrupt? So you literally have to take stock of the way you use your own social capital on a day-to-day basis in your professional world and say, and then you analyze it. Oh my gosh. What I've noticed is that everybody who had a life story like mine, that's who I tap. Is that really who we want for leadership? Well, actually, probably not. And what would happen if I expanded my thing? What happens if I took a risk and found somebody else? What would that look like? And maybe I don't go all the way into the social capital. Maybe I just start with allyship, and I just start to get to know people who are outside my normal circle. And then, for example, meet somebody from a totally different demographic group, whether that's age, race, gender, you pick it. And ask them questions, be curious. Like literally say, I don't understand, I wanna understand more your perspective. And sit down with them and have a coffee. These steps don't have to be big. Start there. And then once you start there, then you come, and maybe you do it as a managerial team or a leadership team. And then you come together and you share and you say, okay, what are the implications of this? What do we want to change? So little by little, little by little, but I think it has to start and make it visible yourself first. Nice. I appreciate it. And that's something we're trying to do at the Boston Club with our allyship conversations. We're just, it's just simply, you know, you're, you're kind of asking a lot of managers to be self-reflective, you know, in a world where it's, you know, there's a lot of demand on time and energy. I, I literally just got off a call with someone who worked in a, an environment where it was, if you don't make your numbers this month, you're off the board, you know, and so where, how do you make that space and time for that reflection? That's part of what we're trying to accomplish with the club, to hear each other's stories and, you know, and sort of have that self-reflection. But can I say something real quick about self-reflection? A, I can't do it. A, I can't self-reflect. Just saying. That's right. That we know of. No, that was a joke for our listeners, okay? But I think an excellent, actually, you know, laughing, but in all seriousness, you know, there is an opportunity for us to bring even more of our humanity to our leadership and to our work because that's exactly right. The technology can't self-reflect. It doesn't interact in the world. You know, it doesn't have its own leadership journey, at least at this stage. And really it is the people that make that happen. Jodi, earlier you mentioned the orange line. And I'm sure there were some listeners who were like, Wait, what's an orange line? Can you, can you tell us about that orange line and how your company came to be named by it? Sure. So I'll send you the link of the book so that people can get them. We have two books, The Orange Line, A Woman's Guide to Integrating Career, Family and Life. That was our book from 2014, where we really examined women's career trajectories across race and gender. And then we have another book called The Next Smart Step, which is really about how to integrate, how to really bring women into leadership in organizations. And so our work at Orange Grove is really all about how do we really look at these organizational constructs and change them so that they make better, so they're better for everybody. And at the end of the day, the business is better because you're utilizing your talent. You know, if you want a cog in the wheel, you could get a robot. But if you want somebody it can show up at work and be creative and thoughtful, it doesn't matter at what level in the organization. You know, like a maid, for example, can say, Look, we've got a, we've got something broken here. Can you help fix it? Or she can just do her job. So it depends on whether we want to empower it, right? So it doesn't matter where in the organization. It's really about changing the structures and how we're viewing those structures. And I think this is The challenge of our era is we are really redefining organizations. This is where the and comes in. Yes, we have to be profitable, and we have to care about people. And how can we do both? Nice, and I personally am excited that that's even an open conversation because a couple decades ago, this really wasn't in the sort of mainstream discussion. So Jodi, you've shared so much wisdom with us today. You're bringing sort of the insight of how do we translate what we mean by allyship into organizational life? How do we make that practical? And you said a couple of very important things I just want to kind of recap, which is, first. First of all, there's a mold, and what we need to do is make it visible. The Boston Club, we've talked about that, is sort of, we have an expectation of what a CXO looks like, not a chief experience officer, chief anything officer, and so changing not only the face of that mold, whether it's in a C-suite or in a boardroom, and whether it's corporate or civic life, but the organization having ways of testing, what is this mold? Do we make it visible? That was your other point to leaders who are listening, make the skill sets visible. That's part of what illuminating the mold and fairness is about. And sponsors filling the pipelines from an organizational level because as you've said, you see the leadership model is changing and that sponsorship is social capital at an organizational level even. You know, we look around greater Boston, we see many companies, you know, Eastern Bank, EY, Deloitte, these are just, you know, some examples and sponsors, Akamai, who are using their social capital to advance a vision of diverse women's leadership. So that's at the organizational level, but you also talked about allyship at the personal level. Being willing to be a sponsor, to put social capital out there, taking a risk, being self-reflective, who do I tap? Who do I bring in? And so we're grateful for you to share these insights today at both organizational and personal level. And so one last question for you, Jodi. What's one idea or wish that you'd want to leave us with for the future? Something that seems out of reach today. I wish that these. Binary sides that we keep hearing about would come together and start to talk because I think there's a lot more common ground than is expedient for people to share right now. And I understand why both sides are doing it, but I'm getting, I'm getting tired of it and I really, because I can see the way forward. I can see that there is a future where we can come together. It actually creates something that is amazing, where more people can rise up and have shared positive experiences. That's my vision and that's what I hope I do with my work, because to me the power or in this bringing both sides together is where the answer is. What's one thing you believe, you're almost talking at a societal level now, not, you know, personal. I'm talking at all. And organizational and social. And so what's one thing an individual could do, to advance a discussion, a conversation that moves beyond the either or? You have to have a conversation with somebody who you don't agree with. Who's in a different political party, a different religion, a different gender, identity, a different race, what you name it, and ask curious questions. Really hard to do because it's not all you know may not always be able to do it. So you also have to pick, you might have to do it a couple times to find somebody who's willing to talk to you. And without judgment, which is the hardest part, just sit there and listen. It doesn't mean you have to agree, but just listen and see which to learn. Jodi Detjen, how can people continue the conversation with you? Yes, you can follow me on Twitter at at Jodi Detjen. I'm also in LinkedIn, Jodi Detjen. And I also give you my emails that you can give them afterwards so you can post them up. Lots of ways. You can always get a hold of me. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your insight, your experience for translating ideas and to some practical action. Been great to have you as a guest today. And for each of our listeners, what's one thing you could do today to be an even more effective sponsor? Thanks for joining us. Thanks for listening to Speaking of Allyship, a podcast of the Boston Club, New England's premier women's leadership organization. You can find resources and links from this episode in the show notes at www.thebostonclub.com. Follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter. This is your host, Lisa Pryor, president. Be well and ask yourself, What's one thing I could do today to be an ally?