Ep 21: Emile Nawagamuwa - Commissioning Executive

Emile is a BAFTA-nominated and SAFTA-winning Commissioning Executive at UKTV, who is at the forefront of factual and factual entertainment series on channels like Dave, W, Yesterday, and Gold as well is UKTV's digital platform "U".

In this episode, Emile is exceptionally open and candid in sharing insights into his role as a creative executive producer, what exactly a commissioner does, what it felt like to make that leap from production to broadcast and if we'll even need commissioners in the future with the rise of Artificial Intelligence and the amount of data we now have access to... 

Emile also highlights his commitment to pushing creative boundaries, improving representation in the industry and what he's looking for in the next big commissions. 



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Recorded and Edited by Ashley Golder - https://ashleygolder.tv/
Instagram @tvmakerspod
Email: Podcast@tvmakers.co.uk

Artwork by Benjamin Leon -
Instagram: @benleondraws
Website: www.benleondraws.com

Transcript

Automatically Generated

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:29:13
Ashley Golder
Welcome back to TV makers. The podcast that dives into the roles that shaped the TV landscape and how to make them your own. We're on to season three. I'm Ashley Golden, a director by day and a podcast producer by well, any time in between this series, I'm sitting down with some of the most notable voices in TV to uncover how they do what they do so we can learn from their guidance before taking the next step ourselves.

00:00:29:15 - 00:01:02:19
Ashley Golder
This series I am thrilled to bring you an incredible lineup of guests. We hear from a seasoned floor manager who shares a wild story of having to crawl on all fours unnoticed to get to Tony Blair. We also hear from a top talent agent on the Art of negotiation, a BAFTA winning multi-cam director, speaking about the difference between being a risk or an opportunity, and the PR manager who guides us through how the right promotional strategy can actually be the key to winning all those shiny TV awards.

00:01:02:21 - 00:01:30:18
Ashley Golder
I took notes, many, many notes, but for series three of episode one, we're kicking things off right at the top with a TV commissioning executive. Now, talking to commissioners at length is rare, but a million off camera not only agreed to an interview, but gave me the green light to ask whatever I wanted. So naturally, one of my first questions what exactly does a commissioner do all day and will we even need them in the future?

00:01:30:20 - 00:01:51:23
Ashley Golder
We'll see if I ever get hired again after this one. We also speak about the future of television UK TV's online platform, you and what Emile is looking for in the next big commission. So if you're looking to make the jump into commissioning, or even just wondered how to best work with the commissioner on your own program, then stay tuned.

00:01:52:00 - 00:02:03:00
Ashley Golder
This one's definitely for you. So here it is. UK TV's commissioning exec Emile Never Gamboa.

00:02:03:02 - 00:02:16:10
Ashley Golder
Emile, thank you so much for being part of TV Makers Series three and your busy schedule. Literally, as you came through the door, you said that you just been pitching an idea. So to fit me in between your your schedule, I'm very appreciative.

00:02:16:10 - 00:02:24:08
Emile Nawagamuwa
Thank you. Not at all. Thank you so much for coming up from Brighton. It's really nice to meet you. And I've been listening to the podcast. I've listened to several episodes.

00:02:24:13 - 00:02:29:10
Ashley Golder
I mean, I'd be remiss to not ask a commissioning editor anything that I should do different.

00:02:29:13 - 00:02:47:05
Emile Nawagamuwa
Can I just tell you I thought the sound quality was really good. So that that's a that's a big one for me. I didn't expect it to be that good. It's also very nice, friendly though. I like the tone. You know, it's it's it's not too confrontational. You know, we all like a little bit of spice that you know there.

00:02:47:05 - 00:03:00:14
Emile Nawagamuwa
And but it's it's a good listen. It's a nice listen I, it is not a criticism but somebody the other day said to me, oh he said it was nice. That doesn't mean that that's not very good. Is it. Nice. And actually, you know, sometimes you need a little bit of niceness in the world.

00:03:00:16 - 00:03:18:15
Ashley Golder
Absolutely. I think I think there's a lot of, especially at the moment, a lot of things happening in the UK, especially nice is is needed for sure. But thank you for your feedback. I'll try and be nice to you in this interview, but there might be a bit of spice. My first question is who are you and what do you do?

00:03:18:16 - 00:03:20:20
Ashley Golder
Nice and easy.

00:03:20:22 - 00:03:28:22
Emile Nawagamuwa
So I'm a male Navy Gamma. I'm a commissioning exec for UK TV and the stream which is now called You lovely.

00:03:28:22 - 00:03:30:05
Ashley Golder
And what's your background in TV?

00:03:30:07 - 00:03:54:21
Emile Nawagamuwa
Okay, so I don't come from a family that makes any history on TV at all or an area. Really. I was born in Ilford, East London, Essex border. And I went to a school where, you know, television was it wasn't even considered to be a job. It was so far away from reality, the kind of the jobs that you would go and do would be working in the office.

00:03:54:21 - 00:04:21:06
Emile Nawagamuwa
They were the work experience jobs. If you got a job in the office, you did well. You know, it's the supermarket, the close shop or the office. So coming from a really quiet Essex background, I was always reaching out for any sources of culture because frankly, there wasn't any culture there. And I first kind of got into music and then I really started to fall in love with, scripted comedy.

00:04:21:08 - 00:04:38:05
Emile Nawagamuwa
But reason Mortimer, first of all, brass. I, I managed Partridge League gentlemen office, all of that kind of stuff. And I was like the Golden Age of comedy. Then, and I was so keen to be part of it because, I just thought it was so adventurous and it was so far away from my world.

00:04:38:05 - 00:04:58:03
Emile Nawagamuwa
So I thought, what? I give it a go. When I come back from university, I was like, I just give you six months and then when I don't get a job, I'll just get and I'll get a job in the work experience place where I got a job previously. Because, you know, I'll just do some filing. And so I went to London, to buy this book called the Guardian Media Guide, which was £25.

00:04:58:03 - 00:05:23:06
Emile Nawagamuwa
So it was not cheap. And it had in it loads of different, addresses for all the various different production companies. And I'd seen these addresses, companies that were making the interesting comedy. So I just sent my prototype CV, which was what we had no television experience on it at all, to all of them, again and again and again, you know, literally putting, them into envelopes and sending them out there.

00:05:23:08 - 00:05:41:06
Ashley Golder
I did the same thing. Did you really put a spotlight to spotlight? Had a book, and it was primarily for actors, but there were, yeah, production companies addresses in there. Right. And I did the same. I wrote letters, I put them into envelopes. I spent about £50 on stamps. Yeah. And I sent out. That's strange. I didn't know I didn't.

00:05:41:07 - 00:05:42:12
Ashley Golder
The Guardian had one.

00:05:42:14 - 00:06:06:18
Emile Nawagamuwa
Yes. Somebody just told me to get this book. I gave myself six months to get a job in TV, and I was working at a call center in Tottenham Court Road, actually selling subscriptions for computer magazines and I got a call from Julia Waring, RDF, who was was at RDF until very recently. Lovely. Julia. Yeah, yeah. So she's, you know, she's been around for a long time.

00:06:06:20 - 00:06:27:02
Emile Nawagamuwa
She I'm sure she won't even remember me, but she put me in touch with this company in Hammersmith, as work experience doing logging. And I was there for, like, nine months. Managed to get a, the email addresses of people in the BBC, and then went into the runner's pool, and I was in the runner's pool for, four years, but in the runner's pool for two years.

00:06:27:02 - 00:06:44:13
Emile Nawagamuwa
And I started sort of finding a home in BBC Music Entertainment, where I did Glastonbury, reading some music docs, that kind of stuff, before you had to kind of go out and get, independent company production credits, to sort of move up. So that's kind of that's how I sort of started out, really.

00:06:44:15 - 00:06:57:15
Ashley Golder
I mean, it's probably worth saying that The Guardian, Burke and Spotlight are probably not. Now your go to books to get contacts in the industry. I'm not sure I'd recommend doing what we did back in the day. Well, I.

00:06:57:15 - 00:07:00:13
Emile Nawagamuwa
Don't even I that's not in print. I'm sure it's not. There's better ways around it.

00:07:00:17 - 00:07:16:06
Ashley Golder
Exactly, exactly. So that was how you started. What about your most recent career highlights that have now led you to being a commissioning editor? Because you in my head, you're not the usual all career path. You you were an editorial.

00:07:16:08 - 00:07:36:17
Emile Nawagamuwa
It's interesting actually because yeah, it is one way though it might not be the usual, but it is one way because most of our team here, at UK TV, they all worked as freelancers. It's not that common. Fair enough. A lot of people on the broadcast side, they so split between the broadcast side and the freelance side and the production company side.

00:07:36:17 - 00:07:56:16
Emile Nawagamuwa
Right. You know, you have full transparency when it comes to the, production side, but, you know, nothing that goes on behind. And I guess this is the point of this conversation. So when you flip over to that side, you just literally don't know what anything is, is complete gobbledygook. It's like it's like I remember the first time I was on set as a, as a runner in scripted.

00:07:56:21 - 00:08:01:21
Emile Nawagamuwa
I didn't understand any of the language. Yeah. And that's what it's like when you move to broadcast.

00:08:01:23 - 00:08:05:23
Ashley Golder
So what was your career like before you made the jump over to Commissioner in Broadcast?

00:08:06:04 - 00:08:09:07
Emile Nawagamuwa
So I was shooting PD for a really long time.

00:08:09:07 - 00:08:11:03
Ashley Golder
What sort of genre?

00:08:11:05 - 00:08:41:05
Emile Nawagamuwa
And I, what I wanted to do is move over to premium factual. So I started started out in music TV. The bottom fell out of that in 2008. The money just dried up immediately when Napster came out and mp3's came out and I took a job at Royal Mail, I did that. I was in the comms team for a year, and because there was no TV work at all, tried to claw my way back into TV, finally managed to get some director jobs, on dinner date and then come dine with me.

00:08:41:05 - 00:09:00:14
Emile Nawagamuwa
Those kind of fact end shows. I got really tired of doing them. And I really wanted to move into something that would, will allow me to flex to do some real, proper storytelling. And so I wanted to get into, OBS docs and premium doc making, and it took me about six years to get across there.

00:09:00:16 - 00:09:05:03
Ashley Golder
Did you move into series producing before you moved over to commissioning?

00:09:05:05 - 00:09:24:06
Emile Nawagamuwa
Yes. So I was a series producer, but I didn't do loads of series producing. Write a series producers job is so hard with the highest the kind of level of responsibility for the production in so many ways. I mean, I need it all ultimately falls on the exact for the is doing all of the day to day stuff.

00:09:24:06 - 00:09:47:22
Emile Nawagamuwa
They really, really have to be across. So it's so much detail. And I thought at this point I was like, okay, I'm getting too old to be shooting with these big, ever bigger and bigger cameras. I mean, you got an FX nine now, but like, that wasn't what I was using. You were getting these bigger and bigger cameras, and I and I was like, oh, man, this is just too much longer and longer days.

00:09:47:22 - 00:10:21:10
Emile Nawagamuwa
Hi. You know, I just thought what I need to do is I need to either throw myself into the next level on with the hope of getting to some kind of staff job, or take a step back, drop my rate by 100 £200 away. You can be an edit producer and ultimately sort of fizzle slowly out of the industry, but just kind of keep it ticking over because I was kind of like, what's the benefit if I go into something that's really, really more intense and PD in terms of responsibility, okay, it's not as physically demanding, but what is what is the benefit?

00:10:21:11 - 00:10:34:06
Emile Nawagamuwa
Where am I, where am I going? Where am I going to end up. Because the commissioning job. So we just thought that was just a pie in the sky. We had this conversation with like a few of my mates one day when we were walking, you know, from an edit in Soho, and we were going, well, what are we going to do?

00:10:34:06 - 00:10:52:18
Emile Nawagamuwa
You know, we're going to be too old to shoot like this. You know, we're going to end up being series producers that we just going to burn out. So what are we going to do? Because there's no chance that we're going to become commissioners. And I was just like, all right, I'd give that a go or I end up being an edit producer, for the rest of my life.

00:10:52:22 - 00:10:55:18
Emile Nawagamuwa
And I was like, all right, I'll give it a go, see how it goes.

00:10:55:20 - 00:10:57:03
Ashley Golder
The series producing?

00:10:57:05 - 00:11:02:15
Emile Nawagamuwa
Yeah, because series producing was a it was a step towards commissioning.

00:11:02:17 - 00:11:31:13
Ashley Golder
So before we move on to how you made the leap from series producing in production to now being commissioning editor on the other side, which for me feels like a chasm. Yeah, leap just debunk for me what a commissioning editor does really just go down into it. And for those of us who don't know or don't get to talk face to face with the commissioner, what is the job?

00:11:31:15 - 00:11:49:12
Emile Nawagamuwa
Well, now, when we talked before we talked, I said, I going to ask you a few questions because sometimes, it's good to have a bit of a conversation rather than it all be about, the interviewee. So what do you think commissioning editor does? Or commissioning executors?

00:11:49:14 - 00:12:11:14
Ashley Golder
I'll give you the populist view because I don't I'm a PD. I also don't have face to face time with the commissioner. It comes from an exec to an SP and to me. So from the view of a typical industry and not everybody, is that a commissioner is the person that you just need to convince to give you the money.

00:12:11:16 - 00:12:32:11
Ashley Golder
They are the person who, will say yes or no and with you in front of me. And I feel very bad saying this, the person who interferes when they're not allowing the program makers to just program make is a populist view. That's not my view. And, over to you.

00:12:32:13 - 00:13:00:10
Emile Nawagamuwa
Well, I think that's, you know, part of this conversation is to try and mythbuster a few things. You know, I was a PD, I didn't ever have any conversations with commissioners. So, you know, what I get feedback is notes that I was going, oh, what the hell does that mean? You know, but the way the industry is set up, is it set up with, you know, to any capitalist industry set up the same way, two slightly opposing forces in order to make sure that you get the best result at the lowest price.

00:13:00:10 - 00:13:24:14
Emile Nawagamuwa
Right. That's basically that is a basic rule. One of one of capitalism. That's what you're saying here, right? So from the commissioner's perspective, they are trying to get the best series and the best show that increases reach on their channel either through prestige or ratings. One of the one of the two things, pretty much those are the things that really, really count.

00:13:24:14 - 00:13:47:16
Emile Nawagamuwa
Right? So that's what the commissioner's job is. So from the program makers position, you're making the show the best that you think it can be. But that might not show. What goes into that show might not necessarily be all the things that, appeal to the audience that we know inside out. That's that's where the that's where the clashes come.

00:13:47:16 - 00:14:10:11
Emile Nawagamuwa
I suppose that's where, you know, clashes over title and, editorial often come. There we do quite a lot of audience research on this side of the fence. And every time a series goes out, obviously for you, I kind of ends there when it goes out. But for us, it almost starts there. That is the mark of success.

00:14:10:11 - 00:14:28:22
Emile Nawagamuwa
I know that from producers and series producers, series producers, it's important that their show is successful. But for every commission we make, they have to be successful. So that's where a lot of that interference comes from. I think.

00:14:29:01 - 00:14:31:05
Ashley Golder
Interference or collaboration.

00:14:31:06 - 00:15:03:00
Emile Nawagamuwa
So I was literally just back referencing the word interference. Now, I'm not that person who, isn't interference. I'm very much more on the collaborative side. Sometimes it would take us months and months and months of research and development to stand an idea up. But the main thing is, and it's so different from being an SP and a PD, is that the most important part, of my job editorially, are the development up to the green light and then sort of beyond that.

00:15:03:02 - 00:15:23:09
Emile Nawagamuwa
And the edit, the shoot bit, which was the main part of my job previously, is actually where I have the least involvement now, which is so weird. It's so weird. So if you don't set your production company off right on the right path and make it really clear, and when I say make it clear, you have to tell.

00:15:23:11 - 00:15:27:13
Emile Nawagamuwa
You have to tell anyone and everyone everything three times, right?

00:15:27:15 - 00:15:28:20
Ashley Golder
As a commissioner to the production.

00:15:28:20 - 00:16:05:18
Emile Nawagamuwa
Always, always, always. Because, the needs of the, the needs of the channel are not necessarily the needs of the program maker. So we have to come together and work together and make that show land with our audience. And it also be the best show. Now I want both, you know, we all want both. But I think the way in order to do that as a commissioner is to be as transparent with those, ideas and those concepts and the things that we know sort of land with our audience and what the what the brand, what you wants to do, what it wants to be and where it wants to go, to gather a

00:16:05:18 - 00:16:31:23
Emile Nawagamuwa
new audience and, and lots of facts that we know as well about the, about the audience. It's our job to input that and find a creative editorial solution to the shows that we make so that they are the best shows they can possibly be. Another well, and the most well-received shows that they can possibly be those, you know, whether that's audience, whether that's awards, that's what we're looking for.

00:16:32:05 - 00:16:47:17
Emile Nawagamuwa
No one is going to bring me the perfect show. That's the thing. We have to go through this whole process of what the channel needs, where the channel is, a lot of which you won't have seen because a lot of these shows are in production and they're not out there. It's kind of impossible to get a sense of the channel unless you're sort of on this side of the fence.

00:16:47:17 - 00:17:07:18
Emile Nawagamuwa
So it's up to me to brief production companies really, really well with detail in a constructive manner so that they can go, okay, these ideas work. These ideas will work for me because we, you know, you know exactly what he wants. And that is it's that clarity and that transparency that you have to get across. And I'm really systematic with that.

00:17:07:18 - 00:17:30:05
Emile Nawagamuwa
Like the first the first time I'll ever speak to a production company, we'll have an hour intro and I'll explain where the channel is. I'll expect that production company to read the commissioning briefs and to know what is on the channel, because otherwise you're wasting my time, right? Like there's no point in us wasting each other's time. So, you know, if you're going to pitch to me, you need to know what's going on on the channel, right?

00:17:30:05 - 00:17:54:16
Emile Nawagamuwa
In terms of what you can say. I will tell you everything else that's behind the veil. I'll tell you the reasons why we do things, and I'll and I'll explain in the most constructive manner what we need and what the opportunities are. That's what I can give to production companies. So I break it down into talent, take territory and timing for each of the four channels that I commission across right.

00:17:54:21 - 00:18:11:11
Emile Nawagamuwa
It's easy talent, take territory time, and each time we meet, we talk more about who the right talent for the channel, who what is the right territory for the channel. You'll get to know the tone pretty quickly. That's something you can easily pick up. And then the take what's special? What's what, what's the USP? How do we make this feel a bit different?

00:18:11:11 - 00:18:32:23
Emile Nawagamuwa
What is the what's the hook. Right. And when you really look at it that talent take in territory. That's your title, your key. The tagline. Right. So if you start, if you start to think like that, it just becomes a much more manageable thing to think about. And that's and the problem with development is that you can go out and hunt ideas that are really, really great stories.

00:18:32:23 - 00:19:01:00
Emile Nawagamuwa
But they might not be the right shape for us. They might not be the right territory for us. They might, you know, they might. We might need something transactional. We might not just seen something emotional. We might not need a single, we might need a series model. We returnable it. All of that kind of stuff. We have to talk about all of that and make sure that production company, every time we may, gets more and more information from that kind of point onwards, that whole relationship becomes easier and easier, and we get closer and closer to a greenlight.

00:19:01:00 - 00:19:06:08
Emile Nawagamuwa
Sometimes we get that earlier, sometimes we get there later, but at least you know what you're doing.

00:19:06:09 - 00:19:17:22
Ashley Golder
So we're going to talk more about the process in a bit. But I want to go back to to the leap. How did you even make the leap from being on a production side to being a commissioner for UKTV?

00:19:18:03 - 00:19:40:20
Emile Nawagamuwa
The truth is, I don't really know. Right? So typically when you do that, when you make that leap, it's because you've worked on a, on a, you've worked very closely with the commissioning team on a production that has done outstandingly well right. So it's a kind of easy transfer your work, you're working with this team. They know you already, and you've done and you've done like a good catalog of work.

00:19:40:20 - 00:19:42:03
Emile Nawagamuwa
Plenty of work. Anyway.

00:19:42:03 - 00:19:43:21
Ashley Golder
So you get scouted by the channel.

00:19:43:23 - 00:20:01:00
Emile Nawagamuwa
But they just work with you and they sort of they've already worked with you a lot of time or they've noticed you. Do you know what I mean? It's it's that kind of thing. And, you know, their culture. They know your culture and they go, you big, you know, you'd be a good fit. You, you'll be able to take our brand, you take our channel, take our broadcast into new areas because that's what they need.

00:20:01:00 - 00:20:22:04
Emile Nawagamuwa
They don't need glorified execs. They don't they don't need people to look after shows. Right? They want to bring people on board who have got the potential to take the channel and the broadcaster into new areas and manage those new shows. Right. Bring new skills on board. I don't think I really had any of that.

00:20:22:06 - 00:20:23:10
Ashley Golder
So why are you here?

00:20:23:12 - 00:20:30:14
Emile Nawagamuwa
You you're exactly. I wish that I got that every day. So.

00:20:30:16 - 00:20:51:20
Emile Nawagamuwa
It's so hard for me to even know why anyone would necessarily plucked me out of that hat at that time, right? I hadn't made a show for UKTV, I did, I did make a show for UKTV, but I wasn't working with, the commissioning team really closely at the time. I think I had advocates is the truth.

00:20:51:21 - 00:21:11:00
Emile Nawagamuwa
I wanted to make that jump from PD to SP, so I was really struggling. I just could not break through. So I applied for the Screen Skills Series Producer course because I thought, I can learn how to be an expert and get the skills because you don't get that when you're a Peter, you're out there shooting. That's all you've got time to do, right?

00:21:11:02 - 00:21:28:01
Emile Nawagamuwa
So how am I going to the jump to an SP was was felt like it was almost bigger than the jump to commissioning in some ways. Like I didn't really know how I was going to get there. And I've been trying for years. On my first day at this Screen Scale Series Producer course in Houston, I got a chance to like, you know, there were 20 odd people around the table.

00:21:28:06 - 00:21:47:06
Emile Nawagamuwa
I had a chance to kind of measure myself against my peers and work out if I had the skills to be a series producer, and I didn't know what those skills were. So I learned from that course, a huge amount. You get out what you put into that course, as you do with any of them breakthrough leaders, any of that stuff, you get out what you put in.

00:21:47:06 - 00:22:07:14
Emile Nawagamuwa
And I just went all in because I was like, If I'm going to do this for a year and I'm going to pay money for it, then I need to get something out of it. So the thing I needed to do was learn how to be an SP, act up and convince people that I had the skills and the qualities to do that, to make that next jump and get noticed.

00:22:07:16 - 00:22:32:23
Emile Nawagamuwa
It gave you a lot of exposure with lots of commissioners, and I had a commissioner who was a, a mentor for a year for me, Simon Young, head of history at BBC, where I learned so much about the background of commissioning and what you do day to day. And that year with Simon, which is every month that he would dutifully turn up on zoom during Covid, was quite transformative.

00:22:32:23 - 00:22:55:18
Emile Nawagamuwa
That whole year on a screen scale series produced a course as well, because I met so many people, I learned so much, and I realized, and I tell this to everyone who's on a course, you need to get noticed. So you need to show that you have the strategic brain and the program making skills to make that step up.

00:22:55:20 - 00:23:20:11
Emile Nawagamuwa
And that's what I tried to do. And I think people noticed that. And I had an advocate in Donna Tabora, who was is has been instrumental really. She's kind of been she's opened so many doors for me and I wouldn't have got to where I am without the support of Donna. And I can tell you now that there are a lot of people will say the same thing, and she literally does open doors for you.

00:23:20:11 - 00:23:23:04
Emile Nawagamuwa
And she, I think, did that for me.

00:23:23:06 - 00:23:34:16
Ashley Golder
So you decided to take a screen skills course to be a series producer, but then you got noticed to be a commissioning editor. How how did those two layer.

00:23:34:20 - 00:23:58:01
Emile Nawagamuwa
Okay, so I just think, people you got get people talking about you and I think, the way in which you talk and what you talk about and what you understand and what you want to do and how you're going to pay it back as well, are really, really important. And in terms of your kind of personality, are you going to do the right thing by everyone?

00:23:58:05 - 00:24:06:19
Emile Nawagamuwa
Are you going to have you got the skills to make the shows? Have you got the capacity to learn if you've got the capacity to progress?

00:24:06:21 - 00:24:09:13
Ashley Golder
Did you become a series producer after this course?

00:24:09:13 - 00:24:11:04
Emile Nawagamuwa
Yes. During that, during that, during.

00:24:11:04 - 00:24:16:16
Ashley Golder
That course, yeah. But you weren't there for very long. You didn't go through poached.

00:24:16:16 - 00:24:17:15
Emile Nawagamuwa
I love the way you think.

00:24:17:17 - 00:24:19:05
Ashley Golder
That poached head.

00:24:19:05 - 00:24:22:18
Emile Nawagamuwa
I don't I don't think anyone was and I don't think anyone was looking.

00:24:22:20 - 00:24:23:04
Ashley Golder
I mean.

00:24:23:04 - 00:24:28:10
Emile Nawagamuwa
Me and going oh yes, we need ehm, there were plenty of, more qualified people.

00:24:28:10 - 00:24:33:15
Ashley Golder
Looked it. Did you knock on the door of UKTV and go, hey look there was, I, am.

00:24:33:17 - 00:24:35:06
Emile Nawagamuwa
I applied externally? Yeah.

00:24:35:07 - 00:24:40:18
Ashley Golder
Okay. So you did apply. Oh yeah yeah I see I'm with you okay. So not poached. You did apply.

00:24:40:18 - 00:24:41:19
Emile Nawagamuwa
No, no.

00:24:41:21 - 00:24:43:12
Ashley Golder
And then they decided to take you on.

00:24:43:12 - 00:24:48:17
Emile Nawagamuwa
Well yes because that is how simple the interview process is.

00:24:48:19 - 00:24:53:13
Ashley Golder
Going get give me an elevator pitch just for anybody who's thinking I might want to be a commissioner.

00:24:53:14 - 00:24:54:04
Emile Nawagamuwa
Yeah.

00:24:54:06 - 00:24:59:11
Ashley Golder
Just roughly how stressful that interview process probably was. I didn't think.

00:24:59:11 - 00:25:18:11
Emile Nawagamuwa
I was going to get it. So it wasn't stressful. I was like, I haven't got any exec experience. I'm not going to get it. So let's just do it. I'll do the best. I'll, I'll take all of that, information I've, I've got from Simon Young and, and from David Glover and, he was a commissioner at C4 who was also, a mentor.

00:25:18:11 - 00:25:41:07
Emile Nawagamuwa
And he was he I he wasn't when I spoke to him, but, I just I got that information in. I'll make sure that I don't, explain what a good program maker I am, because that's not what they want. The interviews for a different job. So I needed to act up into that role. You know, it's easy to go, oh, I did this and that, and I did this and that.

00:25:41:07 - 00:25:51:12
Emile Nawagamuwa
It's not. It's not what you did. It's what you're going to do. Yeah. That's what you have to present when you go into those interviews. And I got things wrong, I got to thing I got loads of stuff wrong. So, you know.

00:25:51:14 - 00:26:01:14
Ashley Golder
Maybe that's a secret, that mindset always, you know, aim for the stars, always think maybe it's like think that you're not going to get it and then you'll just relax and everything. Maybe you will.

00:26:01:14 - 00:26:20:12
Emile Nawagamuwa
Every interview I go into, I think I'm not going to get it. Like what? You know what you this is a really this is a really talented industry with loads of people who are better, got better, you know, CVS and qualifications than I had. So what can I do to make myself more, more attractive than I am as a, you know, as an employee?

00:26:20:12 - 00:26:44:14
Emile Nawagamuwa
Well, all I can try and do is, is show some understanding of the landscape, show some understanding of, you know, television as a whole, not just what I am doing now, but what I am capable of in the future. That's the primary thing. And then the second thing is just be real and just be normal and be nice to work with and treat people well.

00:26:44:16 - 00:26:50:15
Emile Nawagamuwa
That's an underrated element. But if people trust that you are going to do the right thing, that goes a long way. I think I really do.

00:26:50:19 - 00:27:09:07
Ashley Golder
I agree. Well, let's talk then about how to be a commissioner. So you had a screen skills course that taught you how to be a series producer. You became a series producer for all of maybe five minutes, applied for being a commissioner, got the job, and I realize I'm making it sound more simple than it than it was.

00:27:09:07 - 00:27:19:09
Ashley Golder
But you're now commissioner. You've been a commissioner for three. Yeah. Three years. What was day one like for you? How do you be a commissioner?

00:27:19:11 - 00:27:38:15
Emile Nawagamuwa
So here's here's what, here's what what happens. Right. So when you get made a commissioner, a press release goes out right? Then loads of stuff starts lying into your inbox. People start saying, oh, let's go for coffee, let's go for a coffee. And I was like, why, what are we going to do? And what are we going to talk about?

00:27:38:20 - 00:28:07:05
Emile Nawagamuwa
And I just want to meet you and they want to, ask just a few basic questions like, you know, congratulations. What you're looking for, you know, what's your plan? What's your vision? I didn't have one because I didn't. I knew from the outside what w Dave Gold and yesterday were. And I'd studied them obviously, for the interview, but I didn't know what was happening already at play.

00:28:07:07 - 00:28:08:21
Emile Nawagamuwa
And then suddenly I didn't know.

00:28:08:23 - 00:28:09:17
Ashley Golder
Your play catch.

00:28:09:17 - 00:28:28:10
Emile Nawagamuwa
Up. Yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know what the strategy was going to be. As we're moving forward, are they going to keep making more car shows? Are they going to keep making more medical documentaries? Are they going to keep making more panel shows? It didn't you just don't know. Right. So you jump into that position, you have to kind of like evaluate the strategy of each specific channel.

00:28:28:10 - 00:28:33:09
Emile Nawagamuwa
And then you can go back to those people who asked you for a coffee and go, okay, this is the information that you want.

00:28:33:11 - 00:28:47:22
Ashley Golder
So going back, how long did it take you to grasp the commissioning role? And now that you're in it, what would what do you wish you had done at the start of your career as a commissioner? To make that easier.

00:28:48:00 - 00:29:05:05
Emile Nawagamuwa
There is no shortcut. I had to formulate my own strategy and plan on how to do it. You've got to manage production companies, you've got to manage channels expectations, and you've got to keep delivering. And you you've got to do all of that and deliver a hit or an award winner. One of the two things, right.

00:29:05:06 - 00:29:07:10
Ashley Golder
Just just one of the two a hit or an award for.

00:29:07:13 - 00:29:08:01
Emile Nawagamuwa
Yeah, one of the.

00:29:08:01 - 00:29:09:06
Ashley Golder
Two is just not a flop.

00:29:09:06 - 00:29:45:09
Emile Nawagamuwa
But yeah, but it's that's that's the world that we live in. You have to you have to do that. That's your job. If I, if I keep delivering flops after flops after flops, someone's going to keep me around. You know, so you have to be really systematic about that. And there's no shortcut for that. I had to work out what my way and my system was, and how I communicate with production companies, and how much information I could give them and how transparent I could be and how, because you never know when when a commission is going to definitely go through or definitely fail.

00:29:45:09 - 00:30:06:20
Emile Nawagamuwa
You just don't get into that path. The green light is so fraught and it can fall apart at any moment. So production companies have to feel like they've got a good relationship with you, and I've got to feel like you're on their side and I am on their side because I'm, I'm championing their their ideas and all we want is a very successful show.

00:30:06:22 - 00:30:09:00
Emile Nawagamuwa
That's what all of us want together.

00:30:09:01 - 00:30:16:01
Ashley Golder
And I guess if if every commissioner knew the formula to that, we wouldn't have any flops and everything would be a hit.

00:30:16:01 - 00:30:51:12
Emile Nawagamuwa
Well, now here's the interesting thing, right? Because as we move forward to a more kind of data led world, will we need commissioners? I don't know, it's everything is changing so much. Right. We've got to think about realistically how this world is, is going to change, right. If everything it becomes data led and becomes risk managed. That whole kind of magical artistry of, you know, making hit after hit after hit might just become a formula.

00:30:51:14 - 00:31:11:23
Ashley Golder
It's interesting. I don't necessarily agree. I think people will always be at the heart of understanding what is a good story. I think we still need people, but it's interesting that you say that because I think most of the TV industry have felt the same, you know, where's my job going that we know that there's a contraction in the industry.

00:31:11:23 - 00:31:23:12
Ashley Golder
We know that the jobs aren't there, the productions aren't there, the commissions aren't there. The industry that we've seen lately, then are you worried for your role, for your job?

00:31:23:14 - 00:31:59:12
Emile Nawagamuwa
What we're going through at the moment is the same process that happened with print and music and radio. It's going through a transformative evolution. I think anyone should be trying to jump on this bandwagon before it leaves town and they get left behind. And what is that? Because there are so many different pillars of content, right? On the one hand, you've got global video sharing platforms like TikTok and YouTube, you've got a domestic TV, b VOD, and on the other side, you've got, subscription services right from global companies, global behemoths.

00:31:59:12 - 00:32:22:17
Emile Nawagamuwa
So you're turning over three, $4 trillion, right? Whoo! Tech giants. Right? That's what we're up against. So do I think our jobs are going to change? Yeah, they are going to have to change. So we either adapt now we see this as an opportunity. And with every evolution that you will ever, ever get, there is a period. There is a window where the hierarchy just flattens right.

00:32:22:17 - 00:32:40:18
Emile Nawagamuwa
And you get an opportunity. And if you're at the front of the pack, then if you are the, if you're an early adopter and you can find a way for your content to land to the broadest audience and in the best possible way, and that and then where it lands is continuing to grow, then you're in a good place.

00:32:40:21 - 00:33:03:22
Emile Nawagamuwa
What that job will be called in the future. I don't know, and it might not be the same as what we do. I'm sure we'll have to handle more data. I'm sure I'm positive that we are going to make more decisions that are data led, because the difference between the difference between the old Bob viewing overnight system and the amount of information that you get now of streamers is is ridiculous.

00:33:04:00 - 00:33:18:06
Emile Nawagamuwa
These are not the same worlds at all. So we've got so much more data, so why wouldn't we use it? So it's up to us to embrace that opportunity and to and to lead the way, rather than hope that everything's going to stay the same. Because it's not.

00:33:18:08 - 00:33:32:11
Ashley Golder
I feel like I'm about to look into the secret sauce for UKTV, but what do you think is the future then? How are you going to change you as a meal, as commissioner, to make sure that you do stay relevant and that you can keep commissioning programs?

00:33:32:13 - 00:33:50:14
Emile Nawagamuwa
I'm going to look for the areas of growth. Number one, the first thing I'm going to look for is what? And we need to bring people to you. That's the first thing, right? My objective is to get more users onto the platform. What's going to do that. Yeah. Popular shows and flagship shows right. That's that's what I'm looking at.

00:33:50:14 - 00:34:11:05
Emile Nawagamuwa
So the first thing is I'm going to be looking always at talent and concepts that are eye catching that take us into a new place. That's what I've got to do. First of all, I've got to make those shows that bring people to that, to the platform and that might mean a big departure from what we typically have done previously on Dave.

00:34:11:07 - 00:34:22:13
Ashley Golder
Well, let's talk about the job. So once a production company then has pitched an idea and and that idea is on your lap, on your screen, what do you do with that.

00:34:22:15 - 00:34:41:11
Emile Nawagamuwa
So look at the treatment. I'll look at the tape. And my first thing is, does it tick these boxes? Does it work? Am I, am I looking at this and thinking and take a step back from an audience member? I'm looking at this and I think what that is a compelling top line tagline. Key. Right.

00:34:41:13 - 00:35:04:01
Emile Nawagamuwa
Is that is that an exciting idea? Like, I, you know, as you as you saw, earlier, I just happen to pitch is completely random saying, to my team, which is not what we typically make on this particular channel. Right. But I just thought this is this is a this is a strong idea, but tonally is it's very much in the right tone for that particular channel.

00:35:04:01 - 00:35:21:13
Emile Nawagamuwa
So that might that might work. I'll do a bit of work developing the idea in terms of how that front page comes off as well. You know, some people do it really well and some people it needs a little bit more work. Right. You know what it's like. It's the same as CVS. People. People have so many different CVS and ideas that they have to get to.

00:35:21:13 - 00:35:38:08
Emile Nawagamuwa
That first page is so, so important to make an impression. The title is more and more and more important. I used to I used to think that titles, you know, whatever, they're really, really important. And the tagline is really, really important. You get those two things right straight off the bat, and it looks good on the page.

00:35:38:08 - 00:35:56:05
Emile Nawagamuwa
That's another thing. If it's if it's not looking that great, I'll go right. What you're going to do is you're going to get involved in AI for your treatments, because you're going to need it. Do you know why? It's because the looks of a treatment, the looks of a deck, give you a real window into what the tone and the visual tone of it will be.

00:35:56:08 - 00:36:20:00
Emile Nawagamuwa
So actually, it's super, super, super important. And instead of using PowerPoint, which is unwieldy, or using, kind of traditional formats, even Canva and stuff like that, I really gives you a nice sheen and a gloss and can get you into guess the treatment. Take us into that world. The words and the visuals are equally important.

00:36:20:01 - 00:36:37:21
Ashley Golder
Okay, so the idea has made it to your desk. It's gone through development phase. But what what is involved in that from a commissioner that isn't just feeding to the production company, that it's just trying to have your your $0.02 that quote interfering with the with the idea that they had in the first place.

00:36:38:02 - 00:36:48:21
Emile Nawagamuwa
So the idea comes to me, that is literally the first port of call I have to win over the commissioning team and the programing team, right?

00:36:48:23 - 00:36:51:20
Ashley Golder
So it's not just you handing out bags of money.

00:36:51:21 - 00:37:14:20
Emile Nawagamuwa
If it was, if it was just me making the decision, let me tell you, these titles would look really quite different. So it's it's it's not about my taste. It never is. It's about what it is, what the broadcaster needs. Right. So I have to convince the commissioning team. Sometimes they get it straight away, sometimes they don't.

00:37:14:20 - 00:37:46:10
Emile Nawagamuwa
And this needs more explanation. And when I'm working with a production company, we'll know what the concept is. But then when we bring it into the next stage, it will come cold to the commissioning team. The programing team, the channel team. And they need to understand it and it and will refine it and will work. It will craft it so that it becomes a really exciting prospect that you can envision now what development is all about is being able to share your vision.

00:37:46:10 - 00:38:02:19
Emile Nawagamuwa
And sharing your vision really clearly doesn't happen instantly. You have to refine it and refine and refine it until it gets to that point where everyone totally grasped the concept, but not only grasp the concepts, they can see where it's going to go, and they can see how it becomes a show and they can see the depth in the show.

00:38:02:20 - 00:38:22:18
Emile Nawagamuwa
Right? You can you can have a really simple concept, but it might only really be worth ten minutes. You need a concept that's going to take you through commercial hour plus series after series after series, right? I'm looking at ideas that I can keep bringing back and series I can keep bringing it back and it needs to have enough gas in it.

00:38:22:20 - 00:38:24:10
Emile Nawagamuwa
And how do we get that across quickly?

00:38:24:13 - 00:38:33:19
Ashley Golder
So a commissioner should really be seen as like your inside man rooting for your corner. They're there to help you convince everybody else about your idea.

00:38:33:21 - 00:38:52:23
Emile Nawagamuwa
Yeah, we're you know, I'm there to help champion production companies ideas. Absolutely. We all want them to do the same thing. The outcome is the goal, right? It's not the journey, the outcomes, the goal. We all want them to land well with an audience. We all want them to be well received. We all want them to win awards.

00:38:52:23 - 00:39:04:22
Emile Nawagamuwa
So how do we do that? Right? How do we get around to doing that? And how do we make sure that you're not making one series of this and then walking away? You want to be making two, three, 4 or 5 series, right?

00:39:05:00 - 00:39:27:06
Ashley Golder
How do you split your time then in that development stage? Because, I mean, you walked into this podcast recording having just pitched, you are a busy person. You can't put 100%, 100% of the time into every idea that lands on your desk. So in that development stage, how do you split yourself up and how do you give to a production company?

00:39:27:06 - 00:39:27:22
Ashley Golder
What they need.

00:39:28:01 - 00:39:44:09
Emile Nawagamuwa
Is probably the hardest skill of the lot, actually, because, as you become more well-known as a commissioner and you get more commissions, more production companies get in touch with you with more ideas that need more development, and then you're dealing with more shows and they need, you know, more management, right? Especially when you're on first series shows.

00:39:44:11 - 00:40:06:19
Emile Nawagamuwa
You have to do a hell of a lot of management on that on that front. It's hard. You have to make sure that you keep that development pipeline going. It's a really important big part of your job, right? You managing the shows is one thing. But let's not forget a commissioning exec manages the shows and an editor gets them commissioned.

00:40:06:21 - 00:40:25:13
Emile Nawagamuwa
You need to do both. You've got to really be able to do both. And so you have to dedicate the time. How does that manifest itself? For me, I end up working like it's not, you know, that's that that's the size of it. But I do care about these shows and I, you know, I do. I want to I want to bring these, you know, these shows.

00:40:25:13 - 00:40:40:13
Emile Nawagamuwa
It's the people I want success. Everybody wants every wants this, these shows to be successful. You know, if I've to stay till 9 or 10 or whatever, day after day after day after day, then so be it. There's plenty of stuff I do outside of commissioning. Is part of the role as well. That that takes up a lot of time.

00:40:40:13 - 00:41:00:05
Emile Nawagamuwa
But the production side you have to deal with urgently, right. But in between that, you've got to find the time to keep developing stuff. And also if you're developing relationships with production companies, over time, they'll send you better and better pitches. They'll send you better and better ideas, which would take less development, hopefully. So that's that's the that's what you have to get to.

00:41:00:09 - 00:41:12:04
Ashley Golder
There's a lot of voices just to get this one originally pitched idea that's now gone through development into this decision making process. What's happening in the decision process for you.

00:41:12:06 - 00:41:30:10
Emile Nawagamuwa
So all of the commissioning team and all of the channel need to agree that this is the right show, that they need to make right for this particular, audience and this particular brand. Then it goes through a further level, of approval. And if it's editorially signed off, when it goes to that level, it's about releasing the money.

00:41:30:10 - 00:41:43:13
Emile Nawagamuwa
It's about effectively going, okay, we're going to put money behind this idea. Has this satisfied everything we need it to do for this, for you and for the channel? And that's a tough conversation.

00:41:43:14 - 00:41:47:23
Ashley Golder
How are you feeling in that moment? Because now you're invested in this idea, I assume. Yeah.

00:41:48:05 - 00:42:18:22
Emile Nawagamuwa
And I'm I'm with them all the way. Yeah. So okay. And when you're in that room and you're trying to get that idea made, you, inside, you're fighting for your life outside, you need to be as positive and as collaborative and as supportive and understanding of the whole business needs as possible. Right. You do not want to lose at that point, and I have lost it at that point.

00:42:18:22 - 00:42:46:03
Emile Nawagamuwa
But that's not down to the way in which I presented it is down to the needs of the business. So your dreams can come crashing down right at that moment. They really can. And the amount of work you'll put into it in the production company, you'll you'll have work with and going back to them and having to say that is is the worst part of the job by miles that bear if it happens and it does happen, you hope that people remember the idea from discussions previously.

00:42:46:04 - 00:42:51:08
Emile Nawagamuwa
You hope that they get it instantly. You hope that they immediately see it in their eyes. Light up. You can tell.

00:42:51:08 - 00:42:52:22
Ashley Golder
Quickly, really.

00:42:52:22 - 00:43:10:19
Emile Nawagamuwa
Quickly if it's going well or not. And the the thing is, your commissioning team, right, will be right on your side. They're going to want to see that made as well. So so it's really helpful that you've got that support with you straight away. It's really all about getting over the line. Then that's the bit that's getting over the line.

00:43:10:19 - 00:43:29:02
Emile Nawagamuwa
Like getting it over the line isn't getting it to me and getting you getting me to like it. That's not the bit at all. It goes through so many, many levels, layers and levels and a commissioning team, if they all are supportive of the idea, they're super supportive of of the idea wherever it comes from. Because if it's doing the best for the channel, then you want the best channel possible.

00:43:29:02 - 00:43:29:13
Emile Nawagamuwa
Yeah.

00:43:29:15 - 00:43:34:06
Ashley Golder
So if you had to do a pitch for this show, what do we well.

00:43:34:06 - 00:43:35:07
Emile Nawagamuwa
That's the deck is the.

00:43:35:07 - 00:43:57:12
Ashley Golder
Deck. Is it so. But what do we not see being on the production side that you've had to like really champion for. Because again, it's to to go with that debunking of what a commissioner just like goes and meets talent has nice lunches and finally gives you some money. There's a lot more work into it. And I feel like we're not being fair enough and we've only got a certain amount of time.

00:43:57:12 - 00:44:00:23
Ashley Golder
But how much have you put of yourself into this?

00:44:01:00 - 00:44:12:19
Emile Nawagamuwa
Oh, loads. Absolute loads. I really believe in this idea. You know, I really believe it's right for the right for the channel. You know, who doesn't want to get more commissions? You know, that's what I want. I want to.

00:44:12:21 - 00:44:16:15
Ashley Golder
Do you go home and practice in front of the mirror to like, how are you going to pitch a certain idea?

00:44:16:15 - 00:44:22:17
Emile Nawagamuwa
No, but I'll write it all up. You will? I'll write it all up. I'll practice it, and then I'll. I'll go in knowing that. And it'll be in my head.

00:44:22:20 - 00:44:25:04
Ashley Golder
Like a speech. Even though you've got the deck.

00:44:25:06 - 00:44:27:15
Emile Nawagamuwa
If it's too much like a speech, it's not going to go down that well.

00:44:27:15 - 00:44:31:16
Ashley Golder
So but like, what are you writing up when you've already got a deck that's written a.

00:44:31:16 - 00:44:47:11
Emile Nawagamuwa
Really clear summary of what that idea is, you know. And what's the elevator pitch? Yeah, it's your elevator pitch, basically. And why it's going to work for the channel, which is not in that deck. Okay. Well, I think it's going to work for the channel too. So none of that is in the deck. And is.

00:44:47:11 - 00:44:54:12
Ashley Golder
That using all of the data and the the numbers that you are privileged to working as part of UKTV, a part of the broadcast.

00:44:54:12 - 00:44:59:08
Emile Nawagamuwa
At the moment it doesn't use so much data, but probably will do at a point.

00:44:59:10 - 00:45:04:16
Ashley Golder
So after the decision process then there's a pre greenlight meeting. What's involved in that.

00:45:04:16 - 00:45:31:09
Emile Nawagamuwa
So the reason this comes early in the greenlight meeting is because productions have to crew up their their teams basically. And what we're asking for there in terms of diversity, equity and inclusion is the same as what the BBC would ask, pretty much, but actually a little bit more. So we want to see 20% of people from ethnically diverse backgrounds and underrepresented backgrounds, and at least 15% who are deaf, disabled, neurodivergent, right.

00:45:31:09 - 00:45:41:09
Emile Nawagamuwa
So that can all actually squeeze into one thing, because, you know, if you're from ethnically diverse background but also neurodivergent, that could be the same person. But that's that's what we're asking for now, obviously to the production company.

00:45:41:10 - 00:45:41:17
Ashley Golder
Yeah.

00:45:41:17 - 00:46:15:11
Emile Nawagamuwa
So they need the time to do that. But what we won't just demand that. Right. So I lead all voices, which is, partnership with talented people who I'm sure you know, and the Equal Access Network, and we provide the production companies with free searches and with tons of people in and so that they can find people from a wide different array of backgrounds to fill their production team so that we can hit those targets because we want to have a diverse workforce.

00:46:15:14 - 00:46:45:10
Emile Nawagamuwa
But for a lot of people, that means looking at foreign names on the CV. It needs to be way more sophisticated that. Yeah. And so we gauge with talented people, we work with them. And I and because I have databases where people have, have where they have, self-identified from those backgrounds and it's really important, it's something that, you know, as we as the contraction of the industry continues, those are the people that we're going to lose.

00:46:45:10 - 00:46:46:13
Emile Nawagamuwa
And that's what I'm worried about.

00:46:46:15 - 00:47:07:04
Ashley Golder
What that is, what's happening. The CN report, Creative Diversity Network that came out and it showed that we are not doing a good enough job with hiring with that contraction and that we are losing those people. So UKTV are pushing to be better, even better than the BBC guidelines.

00:47:07:06 - 00:47:30:23
Emile Nawagamuwa
Yeah we are, but we're also providing those services. You know, we're providing three talents, talented people, providing through really, really trusted services like talented people in the end. And I've been working with them for I mean, years. It's so important because you have to you have to be representative of the society. We're dealing with an entire audience here, right, of all different shapes and sizes, of all different walks of life, of all different heritages and background, of all different socio economic, scenarios.

00:47:30:23 - 00:47:58:17
Emile Nawagamuwa
So if we don't represent that television is a window to society, right? Each each kind of medium has its own different form. And I'd make documentaries. So I want to make documentaries about stories from people, from every different background. If we lose the voices who can tell those stories convincingly and understand those stories and understand those worlds, we are not representing a large proportion of society.

00:47:58:17 - 00:48:00:23
Emile Nawagamuwa
And that is not what television should be doing in my book.

00:48:01:01 - 00:48:11:03
Ashley Golder
Absolutely. So once it's gone through a pre green light, you then get to deliver some good news to a production company and actually give a green light email.

00:48:11:05 - 00:48:31:09
Emile Nawagamuwa
Yeah. Which is funny because it's always the same. So it's it's got a different title. But it's, it's so weird that that's how you do it. You send this green light email out to like 30, 40 people and the production company get it. And that's the signal to go is literally that it is an email.

00:48:31:11 - 00:48:33:03
Ashley Golder
That must be read. So like.

00:48:33:05 - 00:48:46:14
Emile Nawagamuwa
I always feels amazing, I'm excited to work on a new production, and I'm excited that I can keep working with production companies that do good work. That's never going to be a bad thing, and it's never going to be less of a rush than it is.

00:48:46:15 - 00:49:01:10
Ashley Golder
Well, let's talk again to go to the debunking, what you regard as your role as a commissioner when it's up and running, when they're in production, when filming has hit the ground, do you leave them to it or are you collaborating.

00:49:01:10 - 00:49:14:17
Emile Nawagamuwa
At this point? We'll have such a good collaborative working relationship that we'll be bouncing ideas off of each other all the time. Yeah. Also, I'm a former program maker, so I do send in my shit to too.

00:49:14:17 - 00:49:32:00
Ashley Golder
I think that's useful as well. And I think a lot of the rumors for commissioners come from commissioners that haven't been on the production side. That's not to say that those people can't make great programs, but I think it does help understand how to make a program being in that scenario.

00:49:32:02 - 00:49:58:11
Emile Nawagamuwa
Yeah, because few things that are really, really critical timing, if you're going to make changes do it before. Right. I want everyone to embark on that shoot knowing exactly what they need to deliver, knowing exactly what the concept of the show is. Right. You I've been a PD right I and when you get thrown into situations and you don't know what's expected of you is the worst because you walk away from that days of shooting going, did I get what they wanted?

00:49:58:13 - 00:50:22:21
Emile Nawagamuwa
You know? So do I even know what they wanted? So production companies will know what we want from that show we will have gone through, will have gone through, seen by saying, you know, I'll be there week after week, working with them on the editorial before they embark on the shoot. Right. So that I know all of that and we will be having constructive conversations about what's achievable and what's not.

00:50:22:22 - 00:50:32:11
Emile Nawagamuwa
And because I know that and I know the timing of those of those decisions and when they need to be made, we'll have a really great, sense of communication with each other already.

00:50:32:13 - 00:51:01:07
Ashley Golder
Well, I think this is the best place to insert a question. So I've been in touch with somebody that you have worked with. Yeah. Will Hanrahan from first look deeply. And he's, he's put in a question for you. I suppose it's the duty of those who run independent production companies, first and foremost, to keep them in business, because that way we create jobs and we create content that platforms like streamers and channels need want.

00:51:01:09 - 00:51:33:01
Ashley Golder
Given that fact, I wonder how much does a commissioning editor actually think about what does the indie need? Certainly I felt we were very supported in our dealings with UKTV and Amiel. That's not always the case. Is that a specific decision that Amiel has taken to make sure there's good chemistry? Between him and the indie? So I think from, well, what he's saying is that there is a lot of weight on MD's shoulders trying to keep production company creating content.

00:51:33:03 - 00:51:45:20
Ashley Golder
So how important is it that you, as a commissioner, support and help that production company create the best content that they can? And what is your approach to that?

00:51:45:22 - 00:52:08:00
Emile Nawagamuwa
My job is not to point fingers of blame and to spin companies in circles and demand the unachievable. That's not what my job is. My job is to plot the path to make the best show possible in terms of expectation, channels, expectation, audience, expectation and the budget that we got right. That that's how I'm setting this whole thing up, right?

00:52:08:00 - 00:52:29:19
Emile Nawagamuwa
And we and we've set this whole thing up from the point at which I've started to get the sense that the commissioning team are into this idea. Right. So how do I think about the Indies needs? I don't just drop stuff on them. Like I'll be really transparent about what's required, what's, what's a what is a shoot your shots kind of moment.

00:52:29:21 - 00:52:45:06
Emile Nawagamuwa
And if it's not achievable or if it if it should be achievable, we'll be working to those parameters. I won't kind of I won't do things like, you could pick that up, can't you.

00:52:45:08 - 00:52:54:01
Ashley Golder
It's nothing if I'm honest. I said I don't actually have a lot of dealings with commissioners, but even I've heard that. Couldn't you just. It's like. No, we've finished filming.

00:52:54:04 - 00:53:11:07
Emile Nawagamuwa
No. You know I hate pickups, but they never work anyway, right? I never want to be in that scenario. I've been asked to do a pick up again, ever. Okay, my team really trust me when it comes to program making, which is great. And that is a great, you know, background to have. So I'm not going to throw that stuff at you.

00:53:11:07 - 00:53:22:06
Emile Nawagamuwa
I'll find a way round it. So if we ever had to really pick something up, actually, the truth is we'll try and find a way around it without having to go to that particular scene or having to have a half finished scene or whatever.

00:53:22:08 - 00:53:30:11
Ashley Golder
So for you working with the production company, onto Will's question is it the communication? Is it the early communication.

00:53:30:11 - 00:53:41:06
Emile Nawagamuwa
Management and management? Yeah, it's management. Management of expectations, budget. What's achievable when you need to tell, when you need to transfer those messages.

00:53:41:08 - 00:53:52:08
Ashley Golder
So you've been in the job now for just over three years. All the things that you've learned over your three years, what do you think are key to those learnings on being a commissioner?

00:53:52:10 - 00:54:16:17
Emile Nawagamuwa
Develop good relationships with everyone. Don't you don't need to fight for anything, right? So if you have to keep convincing people of things all the time, whether it's products, whether it's the channel, whether it's the commissioning team, if you have to keep convincing people of things, ideas that you want to make, etc. and all of that kind of stuff, it's you're not going to get that many ideas through.

00:54:16:17 - 00:54:36:19
Emile Nawagamuwa
Do you know what I mean by ideas generator with that production company? Keep feeding feeding them ideas, feeding them steers, you know, understand program making so that you can help them. So it's not all on them with the commissioning team. Right. Take steers from then, you know, talk about what they want. Talk about what the channel wants, take steers from them and go right okay.

00:54:36:19 - 00:55:01:07
Emile Nawagamuwa
I've got I've got all of the information that I need to to build up this idea and then deliver it. And I've done that a few times, a few times. And it's gone down really well because I'm not shooting into the dark with these ideas. I'm not putting all the responsibility on the production company. Right. We're trying to work together to achieve these goals of making shows that are well-received and resonate.

00:55:01:09 - 00:55:03:20
Emile Nawagamuwa
So work with everyone.

00:55:03:22 - 00:55:22:08
Ashley Golder
And on the flip side of that, for production companies, MDS, CEOs, development producers listening to this, what do you want out of a production company? How can they impress you? Not with an idea, but more so how they're working.

00:55:22:10 - 00:55:42:10
Emile Nawagamuwa
Now your staff don't come into meetings and have not have seen any of our shows, or understand the brand or understand the channels, or I'll see through that really quickly and I'll and I will, ask questions about what they've seen. And because that is a total waste of time, it's not my job to teach, production companies.

00:55:42:11 - 00:55:43:14
Ashley Golder
How to do their research.

00:55:43:14 - 00:55:55:06
Emile Nawagamuwa
Yeah, it's like you got to come. You got to come prepared. Everyone needs to do research on everything. I've done my research on you, and I've listened to the podcast. You know, I've listened. I've listened to several hours of the podcast. Right.

00:55:55:07 - 00:55:58:23
Ashley Golder
Thank you. I was wondering what the uptake was.

00:55:59:01 - 00:56:19:10
Emile Nawagamuwa
So do your research. Be prepared to be in it for the long game. Don't come with an idea. Expecting the channel or the broadcaster just to pay for it. When not. We are not a bank in that respect. If you've got a passion project that you feel really strongly about, you've got every opportunity to go and make it at the moment, right?

00:56:19:12 - 00:56:35:21
Emile Nawagamuwa
Go and do that. If you want to work with a broadcaster, then work with them on ideas and access and talent that will appeal to the broadcaster and their audience. That's what that job is.

00:56:35:23 - 00:56:50:14
Ashley Golder
And then I think one of my last questions, Miele, is, do you have any advice for somebody who is in that step now wanting to become a commissioner, looking to make that jump? What would be your advice?

00:56:50:16 - 00:57:15:18
Emile Nawagamuwa
Obviously, to your job? Well, right. But it's the stuff that you do outside of your job that kind of gets you talked about. You want people talked about you having potential, and nobody's employing an expert or an exec just to be an SP or an exec on the broadcast. They're there. They are wanting to harness the potential of someone who can commission ideas.

00:57:15:20 - 00:57:50:15
Emile Nawagamuwa
So in that respect, you need to be thinking about where the industry is going. You need to be thinking about the landscape. You need to show you've got lots of you've got lots of knowledge and logic, right? Logic is is so critical is the thing that we just miss all the time. It's important part of program making and it's important part of understanding markets, having lots of sweets and lots of skills like understanding the commercial side of the market, understanding acquisitions, understanding the three kind of pillars of content that we've got, whether it's the streamers and how they're different.

00:57:50:19 - 00:58:16:07
Emile Nawagamuwa
Look at what you've got in front of you and interpret the world and be able to talk to people about that, because nobody's going to hire you as a commissioning exec for your skills as an expert alone. You've got to have more than that. And that's critical in everything that you do outside of your job and everything that you bring to that, to to that role, in addition to your skills is what gets you further.

00:58:16:09 - 00:58:29:21
Emile Nawagamuwa
It's what gets what gets you those kind of commissioning jobs, because there's lots of people who have made amazing shows. But does that mean to say that they're great commissioners? That's what people are interviewing you for.

00:58:29:23 - 00:58:33:19
Ashley Golder
Well, then lastly, what is next for you?

00:58:33:21 - 00:58:54:10
Emile Nawagamuwa
What I really want is I want to have, a big, vast slate that I'm so proud of. There's award winning writing, winning all of that, all of that stuff that I can I can look back on and go, okay, that's a really, really good base for it for a commissioner. And I want returning series. I've got a few returning series at the moment.

00:58:54:10 - 00:59:15:07
Emile Nawagamuwa
I want to keep them returning. I want more returning series. I want that, I want that, I want the slate that I've got. I want for other people to look at that and go, oh, that's, that's chunky. That's got me in it. That's there's a lot of good series in there. And they, they reflect what Amiel can bring to that channel.

00:59:15:11 - 00:59:41:22
Emile Nawagamuwa
And I want to take you and where it's going to new places. So Red flag was the first to, series for w first the regional commission, a Jamali Maddox follow the leader was the first premium factual commission for, you and Dave. I want to keep doing that. I want to keep pushing that brand and that envelopes that we keep coming through with ideas, that are attractive and exciting for audiences and for the industry.

00:59:42:00 - 01:00:06:01
Ashley Golder
Well, I look forward to it. I think we are in a part of our life in this industry where there is going to be massive change, and it sounds like you've got a hunger to ride that change for the better. So good luck with it. Thank you for joining me for TV makers. I've really enjoyed my first and longest conversation with the commissioner in the industry.

01:00:06:01 - 01:00:06:14
Ashley Golder
Thank you.

01:00:06:15 - 01:00:08:11
Emile Nawagamuwa
Thanks, Ashley.

01:00:08:13 - 01:00:30:18
Ashley Golder
And we're off and thoroughly into series three. Thank you so much, Emile, for your time. And thank you to you all for tuning in for this new series of TV makers. Let me know in the comments what you thought and any follow up questions you might have. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of the incredible guests we have coming up this season.

01:00:30:20 - 01:00:55:17
Ashley Golder
We're just getting started with more insights from some amazing people such as Abigail Danquah, MultiCam Director Kimberley Godbout from talented people, Alex Segal from Into talent, and top tier PR manager Jim Pinkney from Multitude Media, just to name a few. And if you're getting value from these episodes, please do leave us a review. It really helps this podcast reach more people.

01:00:55:19 - 01:01:17:12
Ashley Golder
You can also follow us on Instagram at TV Makers Pod or email me on podcast at TV makers echo.uk with your thoughts and questions. But until next time, keep tuning in and we'll see you in a couple of weeks for the next episode of TV makers. Take care.