Get Lost in Jersey with Rachel and Jeanette talking about life just outside New York City . Before we begin our episode today , I just wanted to remind everybody to hit subscribe wherever you're listening to your podcast , so that way you never miss an episode . Thanks a lot and I hope you enjoyed today's conversation . Hi Rachel , hey Jeanette .
So we just finished our interview with Warren Zanes . Yes , it was an incredible journey conversation of where he came from and all the way to the Bruce Springsteen book Nebraska that he has out .
That's a blockbuster it is . It was such a wonderful interview .
Give a little bit of a backstory about Warren , because there's a big . He's got a long list of things , of accomplishments .
So Warren Zanes is a musician , a writer , also a professor . His new book , which we're talking about , is called Deliver Me from Nowhere the Making of Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska , and he's talking about the Nebraska album which a lot of fans don't really even necessarily know about . As he says in the interview , it was a left turn from an artist . It's really in a lot of ways representative of maybe Bruce Springsteen's inner soul and a time in his life and what he was going through . So Warren's book takes us through that personal , very personal journey for Bruce Springsteen and what he went through and what's going through and how he came about writing that album .
Yeah , we talk a little bit about this , about Jim Axelrod's interview with them and that is the very Sunday morning . Yeah , At the very end of that interview , Jim Axelrod says if you want to enjoy Bruce Springsteen , listen to anything . If you want to know Bruce Springsteen , listen to Nebraska . And Bruce Springsteen agreed .
Yes , I think so .
So I think this book that Warren has written about Bruce Springsteen's album Nebraska is so good . But what's also so interesting is understanding the author , warren Zanes , and the journey of him being a teen musician a very , very successful teenager musician and the journey that he went on after that a big part of the rock and roll hall of fame he got a job there and the connections that he made there and growing up and also he wrote about Tom Petty in a very successful book as well , and just who Warren is and Warren's journey and how that relates into how he wrote about Bruce Springsteen .
Yeah , we can't cover everything that Warren's done , but we cover some of what Warren has done and it's a great interview and I hope everybody enjoys
it . Hello Warren .
Good morning .
Good morning . Good morning . Thank you for coming on . Lost in Jersey . We want to know first of all , a little bit about your journey to here , like how you got here , and also to talk about the book . Now we want to talk a lot about you as well , in addition to the Bruce Springsteen book that you're doing a lot of press for right now , and Rachel and I were kind of joking around earlier that when we were researching you and then having you come on , we almost felt like we were studying for an exam .
We were like oh my God .
I'm cranting . There's so much to cover .
Holy crap . There's just so many other things I also wanted to talk to you about besides the book , so I wanted to also be able to get that in this interview . Yeah , yeah .
Well , I'll go with your first part . How did I get here ? Because , if you could go back , my son's , lucian , he's 20 now Piero is 18 . He came when Piero was one and I feel like a lot of families not to overgeneralize , but there are a lot of families coming from Park Slope in Brooklyn .
Yes .
They come to either Maplewood or Montclair .
That's right .
Because there's enough of what happens in Brooklyn or Manhattan out here that people don't feel like they're going to die , but their kids can also go out in the yard .
Yeah .
And they can walk to school and it doesn't seem formidable and no subways are involved . But that wasn't our story , because between Park Slope and Montclair there was Cleveland , ohio . We were in Park Slope and then I got offered a job at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as their VP of education and programs . This for me was like going from the mailroom to the executive office , right .
Yeah .
But I had never made money , I'd never had salary . No one in my family had jobs .
So that was the first real job , yeah .
It wasn't teaching , wasn't playing in a band , it wasn't working on a book that you'd get very little money for , if any . It was a real job and they expected me to show up in the morning and leave at the end of the day Was that frightening , was it like a little ? Nerve-racking Of course . I felt like I was involved in deep theater .
Yeah . I have to figure out how to convince them that I know what I'm doing .
Yeah , but my first executive meeting . It was all just the VPs and the CEO and I could see I was the youngest guy there by I don't know 10 years , at least maybe a bit more . I could see one of the other VPs looking at horror and horror at my hand and I'm like why is that dude looking at my hand ? And I had everything I needed to do written on my hand .
Oh my God , I love it , that is so perfect and I've been doing this for years and it was a moment of like . Okay , I got to change some of my practices .
I guess I need a notepad . A notepad , yeah .
Yeah , just like , fit the norms . Yeah , fit the cultural norms . I will say that my anxiety about that subsided really quickly . I saw some benefits of being not to overdo this chapter , but it was really important for me because I was ashamed of taking this job . I thought I was gonna lose credibility as a musician like Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Well , what's the man if the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame isn't the man ? I was like well , I'm gonna lose all credibility as an artist . I might not see my kids as much as I want to .
There was only one at the time . It was so radical as a change and I was wrong about so much my life today , what I get to do , which I still . I say this with a real measure of authenticity . I'm still surprised at what I get to do . But had I not walked through the door of that job where they expected me to show up in the morning and leave at the end of the day ? What I got to do there ? It expanded my possibilities in such a dramatic way and I didn't lose my credibility as somebody who could pick up a guitar and write a song . What happened was my options were expanded radically and it taught me how narrow my view is of the world , like I get shit wrong all over the place .
Yeah , it's such a good lesson . That is such a good lesson , warren , especially for that artist mentality , because I've had it before , too , where I've thought I have to be a waitress in order to be an actor . I can't do X , y and Z , no , because this is the trope and I need to follow it , and it's pretty wrong .
Well , it's almost like when you are a waitress you are an actor Like . I needed to see . I needed to have some sense that like it's not about I use my creativity here and I don't use it there . It's like if I choose to be a creative person , I use it everywhere .
You use it everywhere , yes yes , I needed to be taught that that job taught me . But then , on the family side , it was the beginning of the end of marriage number one out there . It was real sacrifice to go to Cleveland . You think going from Brooklyn to Montclair is hard ? Yeah , so here's what happened . And this is back to my original point . It was different for us . When we came to Montclair it was after two and a half years in Cleveland , so Montclair felt like Paris .
Yeah , I'm sure it did .
We knew how to use the suburbs . We knew what a lawn was for . We knew how to drive to the grocery store .
Mm-hmm .
And yet we could get on a train and go to MoMA .
The best of both worlds there .
Yeah , well , I'll tell you . So today is Friday . I sent one , took one kid out to Portland Oregon for college , and then the second one left Wednesday . So I'm in day two of my first empty nest experience .
So when that ?
comes it's . You know , I'm a single guy . I could sell this house and go into the city and I wish I could get back the hours I've spent on real estate sites . That's another issue entirely , but you know , it's like oh wow , I'm hesitating Like I didn't , it turns out . I didn't come here just for them . Some part of me is being well-served by this , and I'm looking out at this magnolia tree that I'm truly like , in love with .
So let's talk a little bit about who you were before the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame . You know you were a rock star as a teenager .
I've never thought of myself as a rock star , but I got to inhabit that space , the world , to a degree .
Mm-hmm yeah .
The real rock stars can be measured in real estate . I couldn't be so not to make it material but , yes , I got to have an experience . That was the kind of thing , the substance of dreams .
Yeah , how old were you when it all started to take off with the Delft Legos ?
I was in my last year of boarding school when my brother called me on the dorm pay phone and said I thought he was just calling to say hello . And you know , this is back in the great age of pay phones .
Yeah , I know , I love it we all are the same , we're familiar . We're with you , yeah . We're gonna be called .
There's a phone call for each of your brother . So I was like , hey , let's go . And he's like , oh yeah , I went to see the Blasters last night . Blasters were banned on Slash Records and I was like , oh cool . So he's talking about this and it's like , yeah , it was really good . And then he starts talking about Phil and Danny of Alvin it's a brother band and then he says I think maybe we should try that . And it's like what Like , do you want to join the Delphi ? It goes and I was like I really didn't see this coming .
Wait , did he already have the band going Like , or was it okay so ? He had it going and he was like do you want to come join us ?
Yeah , look , they'd already put out a single . They put out a single . They printed 2000 copies of this single . This single , like Robert Plant picked up a copy of it and talked about it in Rolling Stone .
Oh , my God .
Sam Phillips , who recorded Elvis Presley at Sun Records , who recorded Howlin' Wolf . He got a copy of it .
Like how did that happen ?
I don't know . Sam Phillips talked about it in Rolling Stone . They didn't need me . My brother had an idea .
Yeah .
So I said yes so fast that it took me a couple of minutes to say wait , like what am I going to do in the band ?
Because you weren't a musician at that point .
Well , I like I like I played drums to who records in our barn , like I never been on stage . I was a bicycle racer is what I was , you know ? Really serious about racing bicycles . But I was hanging out more and more with the band and so then I was like , well , what am I going to do ? He's like you're going to be the second guitar player , like you'll play lead guitar , and I'm like , okay , How'd you played guitar ? No like .
I had three months .
I had three months before my first gig to learn to play guitar . I went into Boston , we went to a store , we bought a Sears Silver Tone amp .
Nice .
And bought a guild single cutaway , like one that Keith Richards played at a certain point . And then we went and bought a copy of the Rolling Stones Now , which is Ryan Jones era , and my brother just said just go listen to this .
And so I mean so , how about your first gig ?
I need to understand this your first gig you get out there and you're like I bet again , you're terrified , you know , or were you just like ? You know , I'm just whatever .
I mean , if we can use the language of you know whatever language you want . Yeah , the language of recovery was like I was already disassociating all over the place , Like yeah , A part of it was like how drunk were you ?
Yeah , if I had felt stage fright , that would have been an advance , like you know . So I was just up there , it was happening , I was doing it , I didn't know who I was , I didn't know what was going on , I didn't know , I didn't know how lonely I was gonna feel . Everybody else went off to college and I got an apartment with the drummer Steve and my brother Dan , and those guys never stayed there . They always stayed with their girlfriends .
And .
I remember I didn't have . I didn't have a clock , and so there's a period where I'm in this band but I didn't have a job . I'm in this apartment by myself , I have no clock , and it was like you know . It's the kind of basement level , so your window is where your head is , and I would get up and I would smoke pot , have a cup of coffee , and then I'd go to the window and wait for somebody to walk by and say , excuse me , do you know what time it is ? No , I didn't even think this was strange .
That is so crazy Great . It's so endearing .
I like I want to come back there and be like it's okay , do you need someplace to stay ?
Oh , like , help , yeah , but you wouldn't have had intercourse with me .
I mean , that's who I was , you know . You could tell my I'm always the caretaker , Totally totally . Yeah it's like take me home .
I'm lonely . Let's have sex and never see each other again .
Yeah , that was the life of the teen world then . For sure , and that kind of atmosphere that probably is very accurate .
But I was also too . I was so young , I was even , you know , in relation to the Boston music scene , I was a baby , you know . So there were a lot of . When I first joined , a lot of the girls were like , you know , we don't know whether we should babysit them or nurse them , Right .
Yeah , you're so young .
Right and so . I had , I started going . I wasn't into hardcore , but I started going to hardcore shows because they were high school girls .
Right . Like you're trying to find someone your age , yeah , but it was like weird .
They're like what's the guy from the Del Fuego's doing here , like they're kind of happening and like nobody , you know . I didn't say to people well , I'm here .
Because I'm super lonely . Yeah , I'm super lonely and I don't know . Do you want it to become correct ? Intercourse with someone tonight . Intercourse .
Especially if you said it like that , if you said intercourse , that was not going to work out for you .
Well , ok , so let's say , let's take you a little fast forward , you a little bit . So that band , how long were you in the Del Fuego's ? Because I know that it did break up and I think that it was a little bit of a transition period of your life . I'm sure to once that .
And I'd be honest yesterday , it was a transition period , I mean .
I won't Me too . They just don't stop this morning has been a transition . Yeah , we're all , Jeanette and I . Every day , we're in a transition , yeah . We just get to share it with each other .
Yeah , Like I think I mow my lawn and trim my hedges so that it feels less like everything's a transition .
So something's consistent , something's like staying .
Yeah , I'm looking for these buoys , but yeah , so the band you know , I left when I really realized my brother wasn't going to cut me in on the creative life which is really the songwriting
.
Yeah .
And he had given me the impression that he was going to and then he didn't . But it wasn't saying your songs aren't good enough , he was like they're good enough . He said you should go form your own band and I felt deep , deep betrayal . And years later I said you know , you got to come into therapy with me . I got a serious wound around that .
Yeah .
You know , I think the true wound was , you know , our father really abandoned us . When I was two . He left and looked back , and so when I've had moments of things ending in that hard way , it just triggers that stuff . I didn't know that then . I thought it was , I just thought my brother was an asshole .
Yeah .
But it turns out it was a bigger picture , but all the feeling it was a very , very intense time .
You know , when you're in a band it's so funny , like I finally , with this latest book , the book about Springsteen's Nebraska record and the acknowledgments for the first time I was really able to thank my that band .
It choked me up really because you know what you go through in a band at that age is deep , deep stuff and it was deep , deep hurt when I left . But the miraculous part of it is everything that happened in those five years was so crucial to the things I would do later that would matter deeply . So when I've had these opportunities that remain surprising to me on some level I feel like I do them well and I feel like I earned them . But at the same time they seem miraculous . But like spending time with Tom Petty , who's a childhood hero , spending time with Bruce Springsteen . What has made the fabric of those experiences durable is that I was in a band . When we're talking about being in bands , when we're talking about turning songs into records , like I've been there , and so in these acknowledgments for this book , I was able to thank these guys who , at different times , I've wanted to kill you know , woken up at 3am resenting the hell out of them .
It's not just age , it's age and experience that got me to like God . Some of the most precious things in my life were possible because they had that experience . That it's not the BA , it's not the two master's degrees , it's not the PhD . It's five years in a rock and roll band that gave me the education that mattered the most . I needed those other things , but those experiences were the ones that really determined the character of what I was going to do .
Right , it's the foundational years that does come through in your book that I just finished as well , and listened to the acknowledgments . I almost stopped and then I went forward with it , listening to the very , very end , and it's actually quite poignant how you are thanking so many people and how you give those acknowledgments . It's really beautiful and I do think that there's a massive heart at the end of that book that people should not miss out on .
My favorite part of writing a book is the acknowledgments , and I'm just telling you like I've learned about myself , that I've got a lot of feelings inside and I manage them in different ways of my life , but I think I'm getting closer , maybe 10% of the way , really getting in touch with my interior life . When you write these acknowledgments , you're really taking a look around to go like , well , who do I have to thank ? This isn't like man . I got an ass-kicking agent and my editor is like cream of the crop . Both of those things are true , but it's a moment to go a little bit deeper and see your mentors and see the people who weren't mentors but supporters , the people who believed in you before you believed in yourself .
That's the moment I love the most , but it is so deep , it's very revealing , especially the way that you write it , because I think that there is some actually information in there about how the book was made in the acknowledgments that wasn't actually in the book , about people that help . Yeah , it's like , if you don't read the acknowledgments , you kind of miss a very important part of it .
It's almost like the acknowledgments should tell you on some level how to read the book .
Yeah , yeah , it was interesting . It's a crazy idea .
I remember reading I followed the pilgrimage route to Santiago de Compostela when I was in undergrad . I wrote by myself . I wrote my bike from Paris to Santiago .
Your biking ? Has that continued on ? I mean , is that ?
This was a different kind of bike . When I was a bicycle racer , I was like , well , it's a wild chapter . I was sponsored by Jim Henson .
Wait , when was it ?
It was 14 to 17 in there .
I just want to get sponsored by Jim Henson .
When I went to boarding school , Brian Henson was there . Brian runs them up . I'm a buyer now . He knew what I came from and that I was serious about bicycle racing . Oh boy , you guys are just touching too many nerves today . Well , it's interesting , it's fascinating to hear these things that I don't like to know .
We want to talk about Bruce , but the thing is that's pretty covered . We want to know about the author too .
Yeah , brian went to his dad and his dad sponsored a balloonist . He knew that his father did something . He was like I had no idea . What happened was I got to boarding school because I was a ski racer . We didn't have the money for ski racing . I figured out how to buy equipment wholesale and use it for a season and make money . You just had money to buy a season pass .
You could learn how to ski . You were in New Hampshire .
No , I was so that I could race . I raced .
Eastern , which is the point system .
When you're in the point system , you're in with the national team .
I was serious about it . I went to Phillips and over and part of it was I was going to ski race . My mother insisted I see breaking away . I said to my mother , no , I'm not going . She kept pushing . I watched this movie . I went and sold all my ski equipment and I bought a racing bicycle . I didn't see people race . They didn't . At that time it was a totally different culture . I started bicycle racing . I show up to Andover and they're like yeah , well , we want you to meet the ski coach . You guys are going to start in the fall . I was like I don't know any ski equipment . I sold it . What ? You're a scholarship student . This is what you're here for .
You don't need equipment . I'm like , what do you say at that point ? That's how clueless I was .
Oh my gosh , they started a bicycle racing team .
Okay , so that you could .
Okay , so they kept you anyway with your scholarship , but you didn't have to ski anymore . You could do bicycle racing .
I was their number one racer for three years . It was like well , amazing , Amazing .
So this is starting to . Actually this is making sense . This is something that's in you from a very young age , as you said , transitioning from one thing to another , to another , to another , and all of them done big , as it seems to be yes , you don't do things long .
It's not how it feels . I feel there's a lot of good fortune . I think I was raised in a pretty twisted household , but one that nonetheless said take a crack at it .
That must be it . Clearly . There has to be something foundational in your upbringing that leads you to do things , and do them with a lot of gusto .
You could call it gusto , you could call it desperation , desperation .
Well , desperation usually in a lot of cases can work . Yeah , yeah . So who knows ?
When I'm talking about the pilgrimage . A totally different kind of bicycling . I was in a band when I joined the Del Fuego's . I just stopped bicycle racing . I wasn't on a bicycle for years . It was a complete shift . And then five years in the band and then it was during undergrad . I started taking our history classes because I went to a museum with my girlfriend and her mother and I'm standing in front of these paintings going like I have no idea what to say about this . I'm not going to be in this position again . I want to impress the mother so I can get the girl . I'd better be able to say something about painting .
So , you went and got a PhD . Yeah , it's just not Not just readable , not an extremist at all .
Not just like I'm going to brush up .
Well , this was before that , but your point is taken . But I started taking these medieval art classes . I always loved the medieval . I was three years into undergrad and my brother said hey , do you want to come back and do a European tour ? And I said , actually to see cathedrals , yes , I can take a semester off and I'll do it . Yeah , and the Spanish promoter screwed things up so that it was like actually you'd need to skip . I was like , forget it , I'm not doing it , get somebody else , I can't miss two semesters . But I already had it in my head that I wanted to see cathedrals . So I went to the school and would study this pilgrimage route , which I thought no one had done since the year 1100 .
Oh , okay , wow , we're not a little self-important , all right ?
This is pre-internet , so you couldn't research . Yeah , you're like I am the only one . Well , I thought , once they stopped punishing serfs like the pilgrimage , oh God .
It's since that time no one has searched . I'm the worst .
So I went to the school and I got a thousand bucks and I bought a bicycle for 100 , plane ticket for like 300 , and then I budgeted $10 a day for this trip . And where I started this was we were talking about acknowledgements .
Yes , yeah .
One book I brought was Thomas Mann's the Magic Mountain . Of course , the End of Magic Mountain . Thomas Mann says now that you've finished the book , you're qualified to read the book .
Oh , okay .
There we go . That was a hard way to get to that , but worth it . So I feel like about acknowledgements , something it really stuck in my head , like by the end of the book you're ready to read the book .
It's true , warren . I swear that it's so accurate because after I finished your book , I'm like I think I need to reread this .
You know , when I finished the book and Bruce read it and he said how can I help you ? It was where's the house ? You know I add this in the book Where's the house ? I want to see the house . And we went out there together and it was such . You know , you work on a book for a couple of years , you're so . It's very solitary . You're in it together and you're writing about this little bedroom where something happened and you're imagining it and you're trying to see it . To have the experience of walking into that bedroom with the guy who made the record that you've been writing about is super powerful and it reminded me of , like , the end of the pilgrimage . When you get to the cathedral in Compostela , you walk in the front . Before you enter into the nave , there's a marble column that pilgrims have been putting their hand on for a thousand years and there's a human handprint that goes like an inch into marble because people have touched it .
And you know , it's you know like I was by myself on that . I didn't speak French , I didn't speak Spanish , I wasn't with anybody . It wasn't until I crossed the Pyrenees that I learned other people did this and I could get some help . Go to the village priest and he'll put you up Like it was . Like whoa , I was camping in Fort . It was crazy . Nobody knew where I was . You go through all that and there were times I was so despondent Like this was the dumbest thing I've ever done .
How could I be the first person to do this ? This is crazy .
You know it's since the 1100s .
you mean yeah it was like it was cold . I was hungry .
No wonder no one's doing this .
But then you get there and you put your hand into that Is that kind of okay .
So just to connect to your what you said about going in that room with Bruce .
That's the moment .
That's the moment it's like the feeling is looking for those kind of moments and I think that you seem to have that kind of desire to have that kind of connection , extremely meaningful as that moment . We saw the interview you did with Jim Axelrod in that room on CBS Sunday Morning News , and Jim is also one of our neighbors here in Montclair .
He was an unbelievable friend to this project .
Oh , really , I didn't know that .
After Bruce and I went to the Nebraska house , we went back to Bruce's house where he lives now not the house , but he's got his recording studio and garages and their lounges and we went back there . I went back to that question . He asked me like so what can I do to help ? And I said you know , I don't want to ask a bunch of things , I'd rather ask one big one , and my big one is would you do CBS Sunday Morning and go hand in hand with me ? And he said yes . And on the way home I called Jim Axelrod and only a few people had read this book you know Bruce is manager John Landau and then I got it to Jim and we were already connected as dads . It was real Montclair experience . Like some , bobby would come on summer vacations with us . Bobby became like a part of our family in so many ways .
It's
so good . So , it was a perfect interview and you go and you see the room and for some of the people that listen to us that are not familiar with the album Nebraska and the book that you've , written , wanting to write an entire book about this album .
I like how you discuss about his mental sort of state , about wanting to get through this album before , why it came on the heels of the album he had just released and before he went into the next really famous album .
Yeah , I mean I still say it might be the greatest left turn in American music . That makes no sense to do what he did . The door in for me really well . Obviously , first was a lifelong relationship with this album , and I knew that when I was having trouble in my life this was one of those albums I reached for .
Yeah .
So there's a kernel . But then when he put out his memoir Born to Run Nebraska goes by so fast . It's just a couple of pages , but right after it is the centerpiece of the memoir , which is Bruce talking about a breakdown and a depressive episode and doing it in a really vulnerable , forthcoming way . And Bruce gets into therapy and in the book . That book describes the beginning of his life , odyssey .
Yeah .
And I'm like , wait a second , nebraska was by this fast . And then the most important moment comes and I just I'm like I am 100% sure they're connected . And that's where the book started .
Did you know Bruce at that time , Cause it didn't seem like you had . Maybe you had had run-ins with him , but you didn't know him .
I knew him , he didn't know me . Yeah , yeah , yeah but yeah , he'd played with our band once when I was a teenager , when I was at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame I did a tribute to Lead Belly that I really wanted him to be a part of . And a couple months later there's a letter in my mailbox at work and it's from Bruce saying I'm really sorry I couldn't be there . I still remember your old bands , you know I was like what you know totally .
You remember that .
Yeah , like what . And then Elvis HBO documentary the Searcher John Landau was a producer on that .
Yeah .
Tom Zimney was the director . Tom helped me introduce the idea of a Nebraska book to John Landau . I went and did a session with John . This is not in the book , but Art History came to my aid again .
Ok , yeah , let's hear it .
Because I walked into John's house and I'm like taking off my car heart jacket and I'm saying , is that a Coro ? Like I'm looking at you know ? And he looks at me and says yes . Wow , and we're just kind of standing in the quiet . And then I pointed another minute ago Is that Corbe ?
Oh , no way , and he goes to .
a nice that he has those as an art collector , I've met some yeah . None working at his level .
Wow , that's unbelievable .
Yeah , but after the Corbe thing he just doesn't even say yes . He yells to his wife and says , yeah , you got to come . He might be the only person in the music business who recognized these wonderful artists . Yeah , and then he .
And then we talked about art for quite a lot and then we got down to business and at the end of the interview he said I don't tell Bruce what to do , but I'm going to suggest to him that he would have a good time talking to you like I did today . Yeah , and then you know , week later John called me on my cell and said uh , bruce is in . Wow , and then you're . You know , then you're into a book .
Well , you know , I would say that at that moment you would freak out . But I don't know if you did , because you've you've worked with so many legends .
Yeah .
But I feel like you're just probably like oh yeah , of course .
I felt like . I felt like a lot of like , like excitement , but where my mind goes to is like I want to ask him . My mind goes to what I want to ask him yeah . And he's incredible because he's of his openness Like you're not , it's . It's not excavation , he is a self excavating individual .
Right .
Your approach is going to be different . Some people do the excavation . You don't need to do that with him . It's much more like how can we get to places that maybe he's he's never gone and quite the way I hope he does Causal relationship between Nebraska and a kind of breakdown , like we really hit it directly . Like he says I don't know if you can make it causal he went somewhere with that record . He went into some , you know , place within that was suffering and he went there by himself and he went there , you know , without flashlights and tools . What do people do ? They , you know they either go there and they don't come back , or they go there , they come back and they do some rebuilding . And that's what he did .
And I felt that helped me understand , born in the USA , like how do you go from that to the next ? And that's really what the book is about . It's funny , you know we think of like cultural artifacts . We think of them as reflections of the maker's identity and it's like I think they're more like the reflections of the maker's search for their identity .
It's different .
And I think Springsteen's output can be viewed in that way . He's super inquisitive , he comes from some hard stuff and the thing we get is what he threw off along the way , as he , you know , went to find out . And as he's learning about himself , yeah , yeah totally , and Nebraska is . You know when he says about Nebraska , it still may be my best , yeah , I would almost translate it to mean it still may be the one where I found out the most about myself . Yeah .
Yeah .
And you know that's hard stuff , that's not high-fiving , you know Really , binding out about yourself it's painful , it's not a victory lap moment Right .
And it was done in a time when therapy and self-examination wasn't , you know , so common and we didn't know all the books for it , he did it unconsciously , which is really even more interesting about it and what inspired Nebraska are very dark , scary yeah you wouldn't think that let's look at a serial killer and put myself in their like mindset is going to help me figure out more about my pain .
That is incredible , Like I'm still knocked out by it .
Yeah .
Like you know , one part of me is like I'll take credit . I'll take credit for this book , but he did this stuff . He gave me something to write about . I didn't come up with that .
Right . Well , you know , let's okay . Everybody should check out this book , because it it . I first of all I just want to say you're an excellent writer , excellent storyteller . It was completely an enjoyable book , I mean everybody . I would recommend it to anyone , even if they aren't a music you know expert or a Bruce Springsteen expert . It's just fascinating and well written .
Having heard that also about the Tom Petty book , I haven't read the Tom Petty book but I have heard , read and seen the reviews of it . It is just considered a masterpiece of a biography and you've written with Garth Brooks and it seems like you know your strength as a writer is possibly all rooted into all of this . That you've told us is that you've got this personal connection to the struggles that people have of being a musician and of , you know , loneliness , and also you understand the whole concept of what you told us about Cleveland . You know is like the idea of selling out and it not really being a sellout . You know you have all of these things to understand , especially with really huge artists , you know . So it's , you're a fascinating person in and yourself .
Well , thank you , and you know I do feel I say to my sons I'm like do not expect to get as lucky as dad got .
You never know yeah .
It's just like don't don't bank on it .
Or don't try to recreate what you've created . I think about that too . As parents , you know when you're talking to your kids , or you know as I look at my own parents . It's not a path that you just created and you followed every step in order to get where you are . You followed who you are and you took opportunities that came along and it became your life .
But it's not false humility when I say there's a lot of luck involved .
Yeah .
So then you like , as a parent , I look at like , okay , well , what's not about luck ? Well , identifying mentors and learning to learn from them .
Yep .
Learning to work with teachers . Okay , I did that well .
Yes .
But also , like you know , my undergrad degree , like the art history , was just to get laid initially , but I was doing creative writing to , you know , to be a writer . At the end of that I got the English prize and then I got the creative writing prize and I considered myself a failure because I wasn't published in the New Yorker . Oh yeah , now had I ever submitted to the New Yorker or any other journal .
No , because I'm so afraid of failure .
Yeah , but I considered it over . I was ashamed .
But now you're a New York Times bestseller , so right , right .
But you know , I say this only like in case there's some younger person . Watch out for those voices , they'll stop you .
Yeah .
And I did stop and I took this academic path and my writing was academic writing , where the where the luck comes in is just some chance encounters that created almost like a seam into another kind of writing , and my book about Dusty and Memphis was one of those . How did that happen ? Somebody set me up on a blind date with a fellow artist , Joe Bernice , and in the middle of the thing Joe said you should write a book in this series and I took ideas that were in my dissertation and it was very academic and I did this remix . I felt like I was getting away with murder in this thing . And then Tom Petty reaches out to me because he read it . It's incredible .
That's such a good point . You took the opportunity and you just did it .
Yeah , but I really thought I was doing something stupid . I did not think I was doing the right thing . I just didn't know how else to do it . So I created something that I look back and I'm like man . That was the key moment for me as a writer was to go don't worry about conventions .
Yeah .
You can mess with the form .
Which is what Nebraska did . You know , it's like the same thing , yeah .
It's like . It's not in the spirit of like invention , it's like me going like . I think this is the best way to tell the story .
Aww , look how cute Hi .
This has to be on video .
now I know who is this .
This is Toby .
Cute .
I know he's been we're all dog people , so I'm looking around a few times . A couple of times he looked on cue . When you said something like profound , You're like yeah .
He doesn't know this , but we're getting in the car tomorrow and I'm driving to Nashville .
Yes , I wanted to ask you about this .
Okay .
So so you are going to be at this amazing Nashville live recording concert and recording right , I'm assuming .
Well , it's being shot for it'll be aired on PBS and it's what I . It's what I did in Montclair , like the Montclair Literary Festival gave me my dream platform , which was I want to do something . I've done one of these in relation to Tom Petty and it was I got off stage doing that and I said whatever just happened there was the most me I've ever felt
doing something .
So I was like I want to do something where I , I read , I talk , but there's musicians playing the songs relating to what I'm talking about in between . So it's worth music , words , music . And then I want to have a marionette so that I can talk to Bruce Springsteen . And that's where it started . Okay , did that , exactly that last part about this marionette . My agent said please .
No , just not the Marionette , not make a very every of Bruce Springsteen .
That's the way to do . A pitch , though , is like to get the anything that you want , just throw some .
Wild card in there and they're like okay , everything but that but when I did the Tom Petty one my sister made a Tom Petty Marionette for me did talk to him and .
I bet it was a success that one seems like it would . Somehow it seems to work with Tom Petty , I don't know why .
Well , I'm not alive that . That is one reason that it's easier . It ended up surprising everyone because it was like the emotional center of the night because people Suspend their knowledge of that's a puppet ? I'm pretty sure it's not a puppet , it's Tom Petty , you know , and he was . Tom Petty was asking me if my mother was still growing pot , and I'm like no , you know , she stopped and it's like yeah , like .
Did the Tom Petty Marionette smoke a joint ?
No , no , it was like we didn't even rehearse that show , so I had the guitar player . He's like really .
I gotta do this . I'm like somebody's gotta . Everybody was like .
That's not gonna work but it's .
Event I did not have a Bruce Springsteen Marionette , but I had a A Charles Stark weather Marionette .
Oh , that kind of seems more , yeah , but whoa , I think Nobody respond .
Good , I think they were just like okay , so you brought a Marionette .
Murderer .
So this is just to say , montclair , you know that's . That's one of those days , montclair , let me do . The literary festival gave me this platform . Montclair showed up for me , really moving to me , like I really got to do what I wanted , and yeah or a Cantrell was there and Steve Earl was there and James Maddock was there playing music . So I've done this show in a few different places . In Nashville my friend Jed Hilli runs the Americana Music Association and they've got their big annual conference happening .
Right , did you get to pick the musicians is what I need to ask you about the musicians I see the list of the musicians that are coming to perform .
So it's Nashville one , so you're already in a great , the best place . It's the first night of Americana . You're in an even better place for it the artists playing songs from Nebraska . We have Noah Kahn .
I know my daughter , bridget , is Obsessed with him . Saw him play in Radio City Music Hall . She knows every single lyric . We listen to it in the car everywhere , all the time . So when she saw the city , oh , which is my favorite off the Nebraska album .
Yeah , yeah , man , okay . So then we got Lyle . Love it , Use cars and my father's house .
Perfect .
Emie Lou Harris .
What's emie Lou doing ? Who's my favorite ?
Emy is starting because I've got you know it goes from the river into Nebraska , so she's doing the price pay from the river .
Oh .
Doing Nebraska .
Oh , Emmie Lou Harris .
And then the luminaires are doing state trooper and mansion on the hill . Lucinda Williams is doing the Nebraska version of Born in the USA . But Eric Church just joined and we're figuring out what songs he's doing now .
So cool , it's really wild for me .
Like you know , these are . I'm not bringing a marionette .
Are you like that would really might be a detraction .
Yeah , parking , but I think , I think Toby is like he is telling us that it's time to wrap up , probably I . Have to say he does this like . I'm pretty like out with my sobriety . You know I'll be clean . It's over for 30 years . In December .
Congratulations .
Thank you , and I'm in an hour a meeting . This dog knows the serenity prayer , like he jumps in my lap .
Oh , so he's waiting for the serenity prayer .
Yeah , yeah , don't you people ever say the serenity prayer .
Like it's time Serenity prayer time . It's kind of like dinner time . Instead it's serenity prayer time . Yeah Well , Warren , thank you so much for coming on , yeah it has been a pleasure and we're looking forward to watching this
.
On Coming up it'll air in 2024 .
Oh , oh man really not far away . Okay , it says a live television taping 2023 .
Yeah , it's . I think he shouldn't have said the word live in there , because that suggests that it's airing live .
Yeah .
I think he just means there are people in the audience . Well , I .
Got it All right , so good thing I don't have to figure out how to like record it for my family . Yeah .
My mother has asked me . She's asked me 20 times .
Well , we'll let everyone know when it is out . Congratulations . Yeah , thank you for spending time with us .
Thank you both , that was really fun .
I'm glad . I'm glad for and we'll follow you in Nashville .
All right , all right , bye Warren .
This podcast is produced by Rachel Martens and Jeanette of Sharrion . Please follow us on Facebook and Instagram . We hope you share this pod with your friends and family and let us know what you think . Check out our website at lostinjerseysite and don't forget to get lost , oh .