Crisis Mode: Karen Kessler on Saving Reputations

What happens when your reputation is on the line? Karen Kessler has been in the room for some of the toughest calls in crisis PR—guiding clients through scandals, lawsuits, and the headlines they never wanted.

In this episode, she shares why she walked away from Roger Ailes, how her firm later supported the women who spoke out, and what drives her firm's every decision. We discuss the anatomy of a genuine apology, the distinction between accountability and performance, and how to prepare for conversations that no one plans to have—such as telling a spouse about an affair, a board about a breach of trust, or a team about layoffs. Karen explains why most “crises” burn out in 48 hours, the cases that don’t, and the quiet work of rebuilding reputation when headlines fade. We dive into outrage ecosystems around Middle East commentary, doxxing,

Karen also traces her path into high-stakes crisis communications with no business plan, just curiosity and persistence—and explains how she’s now helping turn New Jersey into a booming film and TV hub.

If you care about leadership, resilience, and handling tough moments with integrity, this conversation is packed with lessons you can use right now.

Subscribe, share with a friend who needs media-savvy guidance, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway!

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Transcript

Meet Karen: Crisis PR Insider

SPEAKER_00 0:04

We'd like to welcome you, Karen. Thank you so much for coming on Lost in Jersey. Thank you for inviting me. We were lucky enough to meet you when we saw you on the panel at the Indie Fest at Red Bank, I guess it was. Right. As you are on the New Jersey Film and Television Commission.

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Yes. Was very appreciative that I was appointed a commissioner by the governor. It was uh it was a very nice surprise.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Well, I'm not surprised that you were because when we were listening to the panel, every time you spoke, Rachel and I were like, What? We we kept writing down, we need to talk to her.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

All right, that's all very kind. You got I came on, you're very kind.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

You don't have to make up a story.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

No, it's really, it's true. It's true. You gave very valuable

The Ailes Turning Point

SPEAKER_02 0:46

and to the point tips about public relations and how people should conduct themselves or things to do to help increase their publicity and PR.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

You can have the greatest idea, but if you can't sell it, it's not gonna go too far, right? And so sometimes in a room of people that are filmmakers, they are so intent on their art and on their casting and on their script that they forget the fact that it's only gonna go so far if they can't sell this concept and sell their film to an audience, to funders, to, you know, a broader group. So I was happy to be asked.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Yeah, I mean, it's so true. It's not just about film, too, it's about anything that you need a pitch.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

You're the founder of your own PR firm and you represent corporations, high-profile people and celebrities. And you're so high profile that I believe Donald Trump suggested that Roger Elles use you when the Gretchen Carlson case broke.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Well, uh, we did get referred by one of Donald Trump's attorneys the day that the Gretchen Carlson case was filed. And we did go and sit with Roger Ayles and his potary of attorneys and talent that day. I did that with my colleague Warren Cooper. For about three weeks, they brought us into their inner circle, but we never had signed an agreement to represent him. And he told us his side of the saga. I was not a regular Fox viewer, so I really didn't know much about the ratings of the Carlson show. But it became increasingly apparent to us as the case, as we got into this, that people were not being honest with us, that they were going to try to have us swear to things that we were not aware of. In other words, I'm always happy to say that you say you're innocent, but I'm not gonna say you're innocent if I wasn't there. And so they were asking us to say things that we were comfortable with. And finally, after a few weeks, it became increasingly apparent that all was not as it was projected. So we withdrew and said we were not comfortable working with him. We kept quiet about the whole arrangement for probably six months or so. And then one of the employees at Fox made a snotty comment about us to a reporter who then outed that we had been brought in early and had left. And then we got called by the attorneys representing the women that were suing Roger Ailes and said, since you all were aware that he wasn't being honest, would you be willing to work on behalf of the women that are suing him because we could use your help? And we thought about it and we said yes. And so we ended up on the side of many, many of the victims of his abuse. And we worked on that case

Why They Walked—Ethics and Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 3:20

and the related case with Bill O'Reilly for um a couple of years. And in the end, hopefully a lot of those people felt that they got justice when he was when Roger was told that he had to leave the network. And then he died soon afterwards, right.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

I ended up looking at the uh documentary that was made, Divide and Conquer, about yes, so that I got to see you interviewed a bit in that. And I have to tell you, it was very hard to stomach that documentary. I mean, obviously I remember when it was happening, but to see it so methodically laid out like that, it's the person who did that, his name is Alex Gibney, and he's probably one of the most prolific documentary film producers.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

And he lives in New Jersey. It took him actually a few months to convince us to be part of that because we generally, as you probably saw, we don't generally talk about who our clients are, and we don't generally talk about our work because we're we're not the kind of public relations firm that you hire if you want to promote a new salad dressing or announce that the gym has new hours or the dry cleaner's open. Like that's not our scene. Our scene really is crisis. So we don't like to talk about our clients, and clients don't like to be spoken about that they had to hire a firm like ours. But after months and months of telling us that this documentary was going to be important and big and that we were already in the public domain because they had already talked about us in Vanity Fair and talked about us in the Washington Post, we finally agreed to be in it. And then when we went to the premiere of the film, it was great.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

With that example, and I love that you ended up flipping to the other side once you learned more. I'm sure you did. But that initial assessment of a crisis, I mean, every company makes mistakes, all humans make mistakes. How do you determine as your company when you assess a crisis what you will take on and and what you won't? First of all, it's a very collegial environment here at Kelser PR.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

So when new business comes in, we sit around that conference table and we talk about it, particularly for something that has some concerns or something that we're not sure. Like we don't do any cases where of child sexual abuse.

Choosing Clients and Lines We Draw

SPEAKER_01 5:20

We're not taking those on. We're not-I mean, there's like there's things that we just won't touch. I don't care how compelling you are or how important you are or any any story that you have. You know, we won't do things like that. We've had kooky requests all the time. We get referred by lawyers all the time. We had one guy who called up and said he had this client who was unbelievably wonderful, and but he had been involved in a very ugly sort of sexual abuse case and he had a problem. And I said, What's a problem? And they said, Whenever he goes on match.com, people find out about his background. And I thought, well, thank God. But we're not doing that. We're not doing stuff like that, guys. We don't try to like mask that for other wit for unsuspecting women victims, right? You know? So no, but seriously, even when we're after big ugly cases, we discuss it as a group. That's first of all. Second of all, we think about sort of who's a damaged party. You know, if it's a corporation, are there jobs at stake? If by helping the company, even if the CEO did something bad, we're saving jobs, we're saving the company. They're gonna maybe separate from the CEO, but the company needs to go on, that's very compelling to us. So that's different. It depends on what the issue is, what the person was accused of, individual. If there's contrition, that's always great. If they lie to us, that's not great. That's when we draw a line too. If we feel like they're not being honest or they're not taking some accountability, that's a problem. But most of our work comes to us from the attorneys that they hire, which is usually the first call, usually the first calls to an attorney. Sometimes it's to us, and then we find the attorney.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Have you had always had a good gut feeling since you were a kid? Like what what made you feel like you wanted to go into this and feel like you could trust when somebody's telling you a story that's maybe not totally true?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

I think everybody has sort of the sense that, like, if I could go back now to myself when I had no clue what I wanted to do and tell them, you know, these are the skills you're gonna use. I mean, I had no idea what I was gonna do. I went to a liberal arts school, things like public relations, I didn't know what that

Reading People, Building a Gut

SPEAKER_01 7:20

was. They didn't offer that where I went. Um I was an economics major for whatever that meant in the world, which is nothing. I knew what I didn't want to do. You know, I didn't want to be a banker, I knew that. I didn't want to go into insurance, I didn't want to go into a lot of things people were doing. But I always had as uh sort of advanced social skills, I liked being in a crowded room. I liked meeting people, I liked hearing people's stories. I was always curious, they always asked a lot of questions. I just had no idea that I could turn that into a job or, you know, that would pay me and make my rent and all those things. But it took a couple of moves before I figured it out, like everybody. And yes, one lead one move leads to the next move and all of that. But now I would say, yes, I have an advanced gut. I can read a room pretty well, I can read people pretty well. But I think half the time, if you ask the right questions, they're gonna tell you, maybe not directly, but they're gonna tell you enough information for you to figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 8:14

I'm curious about your skills and your how you formed your ability to be a good consultant to people that are in crisis. You work with the Today Show and some other television programs where you're a consultant for them.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

We get a fair amount of media interest because first of all, it's a niche field that we're in. There's not a lot of people that do what we do. But we get a lot of phone calls from television shows, from news programs, from magazines to say things like it depends on what the crisis of the moment is. So it can be, you know, what do you think about the Sydney Sweeney situation with American Eagle? It could be, what do you think about this athlete who just got in trouble for doing this? So everybody's got a stable of a few people that can comment on high profile reputational issues. And I've been very fortunate that I'm one of them that some people reach out to.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

And well speaking of the Sydney Sweeney thing. The Sydney Sweeney thing. I shouldn't have opened my mouth, right? No. No, it's okay. We're curious. What do you say? What do you say when they contact you?

Media Consulting and Fast Cycles

SPEAKER_01 9:11

I think that one I I think you know, we were asked, what is this good for her career, bad for her career? What does this mean? What does this mean for the brand? I mean, all of that. I mean, in the end, you know, I think it was not bad for it was good for the brand, and the brand's sales showed that it was good for the brand. You know, the one of the many changes that's happened in the time in which I've been in business is to understand that almost nothing lasts more than 48 hours unless it's truly earth-shattering. So even that crisis for that moment was good for about two and a half days, and then the world moves on. And that's what you have to remember with all of that. I think for her business, I think what we've seen is that she's been a pretty savvy businesswoman in terms of the deals she's taken. And she's, you know, she's an in-demand spokesperson, and good for her. Good for her.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

Has there been a case such as the Justin Baldone and Blake Lively case, which just seems to feed upon itself for almost a year or two years and on? How would you advise? Is that something that you study about how they're handling that situation? Because it's two huge.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

I don't know if I would say study. I don't know that I've enough time these days to study anybody else's dramas. We have enough of our own that we're working on, but but we certainly monitor a lot of these cases. We the situation with that case in particular is there's so much collateral damage, and there's so many voices in that one. And that's part of why it's lasted so long. It's not just about one actress and one director. It's an actress, it's a director, it's PR firms, it's ad agencies, it's managers. I mean, there's so many people that are part of that, that are getting deposed by that, that have risk in that, that have financial risk, that have to hire lawyers. So, and everybody wants to put their version of the truth out there, right, before they get to a jury trial, because everyone thinks they're going to influence a jury and influence a judge. So that's why cases like that are so

Sticky Cases and Court of Opinion

SPEAKER_01 11:00

sticky, because everybody's trying to get ahead of what they see is what could be a very ugly, drawn-out kind of court case. And nobody wants to see themselves sitting in the witness stand without a sympathetic jury. So they're all trying to influence people that might be in a jury and or influence the public.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

So it's influencing the court of opinion before I because it's going to be a trial, because they can't, you know, they can't seem to settle things.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

It seems like you also might be dealing a lot with an emotional client. Your clients must be, you know, a lot of people are in a devastated state. Is it how do you handle the emotional part of these PR crises?

SPEAKER_01 11:38

So our job is probably two-thirds therapists and one-third communications professionals in almost every case. Our clients all are unmonthly retainers when you hire us. And we say that because we want you to call us as much as you want, talk to us as much as you want, unload on us as much as you want, find us at odd hours if you need to. You know, we get it. We have written comments and scripts for husbands having to tell their wives that they're having

Managing Clients’ Emotions

SPEAKER_01 12:04

affairs. We have written scripts for sons having to tell their parents that they, you know, put their business in bankruptcy. We've had, I mean, the things that you would not think you would have to hire someone for. We have worked on all of those kinds of things and then some people having to tell their significant other that they have drug problems, people having said that they're going to be arrested. People, you know, it's sometimes it's the most daunting when it gets the the innermost, innermost circle to you is how do I tell those people that love me, that trust me, that I counted on, that counted on me, that I kept saying I didn't do this or it's not me. And now how do I fess up to them because it's all about to come out in the press because there weren't telltale signs? And that can be, you know, we had to get ourselves into their voice. We have to get ourselves because it has to sound authentic to them, you know, so it can't be very, you know, scripty like you would it can't come off, you know, some central casting kind of thing. I mean, it has to sound unique to them, it has to be authentic to them, and it has to show a level of empathy that most of these people are not used to showing to the people around them. Because usually if you get in a position of power, you're you've lost a lot of that those skills. And all of a sudden, you have to now try to find it and express a level of remorse that you probably haven't done ever in your life, particularly with all the Me Too stuff we were doing. You know, it was one man after another, frankly, that oftentimes had to fess up to their boards of directors, to their spouses, to their staff, that they had their hands where they didn't belong. And a lot of them had a really hard time doing it.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

I am sure they had a hard time. I mean, did you feel that you could help them find that empathy in themselves? Or was that not?

SPEAKER_02 13:46

I mean, to help them find the words is one thing, to help them actually access that empathy right, because you know, the apologies that are now given online, they're critiqued so carefully, like, oh, that wasn't a real apology, or they didn't write it.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

That was written by a PR firm. Oh, yeah. I mean, listen, we we always say in this office, we had one person once who said, I was just a total asshole. I'd prefer that. And we also I mean, he didn't say that in public, but he said it to us, and I wanted to I wanted to embrace him and say, thank you, because at least it means you get it, right? Um, but we have a lot of people who said things like, everyone does it, I just got caught, you know, a lot of she wanted, she flirted, she this, she that. And you want to say, you know, she's 26, you're 66, please tell me a story I can believe. It was hard to not be cynical, having heard so many of these cases. And we would have to sit there and say, Let's really talk about this. You know, I get that you think that she found you fascinating and exciting. But in reality, in reality, you signed her paycheck, you supervised her work, that you know, perhaps she wasn't as fascinated as you were, you know, blah, blah, blah. Yes, your family is gonna find out. No, there's no way we can keep it from them, or yes, you are being asked to leave the company. We have to come up with, you know, what you're gonna say to your colleagues when they ask why you're leaving, all of those things. We call those executive transitions. No, there were a lot of executive transitions during that period. Well, I'm not sure. But that but the times have changed because you know, when we started, it would have been how much could I have to pay this woman to get out of my life? And then it became we have to get rid of the CEO. How much can what's it gonna take for us to get him out of our office?

SPEAKER_00 15:21

So that's that is we started to see that change in the news. And even with the Roger Ailes and then finally,

Real Apologies, Real Accountability

SPEAKER_00 15:28

like Bill O'Reilly having settled before because of Roger Ailes helping him out that those gross tactics. Well, finally he was out after Roger Ailes.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

But like But that was a real C change because it never used to be. It used to always be how much do we have to pay these women to get them out of our army?

SPEAKER_00 15:45

And they can never speak again. Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Right. And even that's changed, you know, because now there's necessary.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Do you do a lot of that, you know, settling, help people settle before it comes out and sometimes in these cases people will agree to a mutual statement.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

And so we will help to draft that, you know, that comes out from both parties about why they're settling a matter. And that doesn't just have to be sexual, it could be any kind of dispute. You know, there's sometimes when it's been a high profile one and the press is asking, sometimes everybody agrees it's best off if we have one joint statement and we both walk away. But you know, the laws have changed around non-disclosure agreements in part due to Gretchen Carlson and our friend Julie Riginski. And so, you know, people are free to be able to talk about these things if they choose to. The truth is for most of them, they don't choose to. And for most of them, they don't want this to be, you know, what they're known for. And for most of them, they want to have careers after this. Even if you could talk about it, there's not a lot of employers who say, oh, please let me hire that woman that suited the company for all this money. You know, that's not always the best thing to have on your resume as your, you know, calling card. So most people still don't talk about it, even if they do. I mean, they may talk to their friends and family, but it's not as no one really wants to be known as the person that stood up and took on Company X, CEO X, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

That's so tricky when you think about it. You know, it's personally tricky, your career, your livelihood, your family life. Ugh.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Especially now with doxing and people, you know, coming after you uh in person and on the internet. And I mean, yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

And what is it that you're seeing now being

How Consequences Changed in MeToo

SPEAKER_02 17:16

the kind of tactics that are happening that are needing to be managed online? Because I I'm assuming, like you said, it's not so much me too anymore, maybe it's not so much doxing anymore. Is it something new that's happening?

SPEAKER_01 17:27

What's the strategy or what are the issues that are what are the issues that you're seeing that are appearing? Anything about the Mideast. Okay. The Middle East. Well, we've you know, we've gotten a load of these people who comment on what's going on in the Mideast on both sides. If you comment in a way that comes across as too intolerant, if you come across as a way that is advocating for action that others find objectionable, there are all kinds of websites, Facebook groups that do nothing but monitor for this on every side of these issues and are looking for people who are making statements that they find objectionable and then reposting it and saying you have to boycott, you have to find out where they live, you have to contact their employer. Listen, the vice president of the United States stood up at a funeral and said, if people come out and say ugly things about my friend Charlie Kirk, who all their employer, and the minute they said that, I turned to everyone in the office and I said,

NDAs, Settlements, and Careers

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Bingo, get ready for the phones to ring, and the phone started to ring. I mean, and we have seen cases that are mild, what we would consider mild. In other words, someone who said, if you liked Charlie Kirk, then please don't take me off your friend's list on Facebook.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

People found that unbelievably offensive and objectionable to people that said much more ugly and awful things.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

But so it doesn't really matter. Whatever is the hottest issue right now, there's so little tolerance for any kind of difference of viewpoints. People are not getting their news from the same places any longer. They swear what they're hearing is accurate because they got it from a website, regardless of what the website is and how legit it is or who published it or whatever it is. And so as we all live and sort of have retreated to our own news pods, for lack of a better word, you know, our ability to accept anyone else's viewpoint is gotten smaller and smaller. And Facebook and Instagram and Reddit and TikTok and you know, all these platforms are just feeding grounds for intolerance and feeding grounds for people being violent. Is your suggestion to just don't talk about this at all?

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Suggestion to whom? To to all of us. I guess uh yeah. Because we all have emotions. You can get you almost write something and I'll tell you a personal one.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

And you know, if he watches this, I'll probably have to hear from him. But I have a brother who likes to use Facebook to talk about news events all the time. And I call them up all the time and I say, Do your friends not read the news? Do they really rely on you to get the news? And and he says to me, What are you talking about? I said, Why are you posting all this? I you know, why are you posting an article that you found fascinating?

Outrage Engines and Online Risk

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Do you think your friends are so illiterate that they can't figure out how to like decide what they feel? But you know, people feel a need to sort of push that stuff out there, right? And the problem is when you keep pushing yourself out there, you are doing one of two things. You are either narrowing your own circle because people don't agree with you just turn off and move away and write, so you're not hearing any other vocal viewpoints, you know, or you're encouraging people who don't agree with you to sort of just come after you in a really big way. Your own friends, what are they gonna say? Right, I like that article too. What is the point of this? I mean, remember the olden days when everybody posted on Facebook what they ate? Those sound like the sweet days, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 20:34

You know, so what would I say to people that maybe people aren't aren't listening to what they're hearing and that maybe they need to tell some people that are maybe don't know what's happening in their little bubble?

SPEAKER_01 20:46

And they're not looking to you as an authority on world events. That's the other thing. So, you know, what would I say to people? Listen, if this is who you are and this is the you're willing to live in this world and and take the abuse that comes sometimes from this world, you know, go for it. Be true to who you are. And a lot of people want to be influencers and talking hits, but if it's not your thing and you're, you know, a normal individual with a normal social circle and all, then you have to think to yourself, you know, what is it you really want and who what is it you're trying to encourage? And what if you do have friends or people you grew up with that don't have the same politics as yours? Is that really gonna be a game changer and killer for you? If it is, then you know, then accept that. But if it's not, and you know, focus on telling them where you're going, you know, where you went on vacation. I mean, you know, decide what matters to you in all of these universes. Good advice.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

You've said that so well. Also for the younger generation, they're so used to posting whatever thought comes in their head or whatever they see immediately. There's no context to anything anymore. And that's dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

And then one day they're gonna look for a job and someone's gonna go back not just three months and not just six months, but they're gonna go back years and say, look what this person posted. Or they're gonna do something stupid later in life,

Should You Post? Probably Not

SPEAKER_01 22:00

and someone's gonna say, Well, look what they did when they were younger, and they were-I mean, those we see that all the time.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

I was wondering if you have to do reputation management for like high-profile people's kids.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

We have done people's kids, we've done people's family, we've talked about scrubbing social media, but you know, everyone's screenshots. So even when people, when they say, Well, I took it down, I took it down right after I wrote it. Well, you know, if you're a high-profile person with a lot of followers, what does that even do? It does nothing. It just makes people say, and now they took it down. And the number one job goal for people that are under 25 right now, the majority say they want to be influencers as a career field. That's a very odd world that we live in when that's what people want to do for a living, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

And so that they can get free what? Cutting knives, so that they can get free, you know, free genes, so that they can get free makeup samples that they don't want. Some people make an incredible living, but not a whole lot. Certainly not a lot, you know, to make you think that that's the career field of the future.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Well, I've heard I was listening to an Ezra Klein interview a while back, and they were talking about that the economy has shifted to an attention economy. I mean, we're in it, you know, doing this podcast, you know, we're all all three of us have some sort of form of this attention economy going on. How did you evolve to become to the place where you were on the radar of Roger Ayles' team? I mean, like, how did you evolve into that stratosphere of such a huge thing?

SPEAKER_01 23:29

I don't know if I'd call it a stratosphere.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

But I mean, well, when you're dealing with one of the biggest It is. Yeah. I think you're in this.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

It's pretty big out there. I'm still and and sitting in Red Bank, New Jersey, meeting the two of you. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Again, New Jersey is really where it's at.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah, there you go. I'm a big believer. I would say this. I didn't really know. Listen, I I did everything the way you're not supposed to. I didn't have a business plan. I didn't have, you know, I had nothing on paper. Like all the things that they always tell you you're supposed to have. I did none of that. You know, it was very organic. When I started this, crisis communications was not a field. It was not a firm. It was not an industry. It was not any of those things. Now you can get your master's degree in

Digital Footprints and Gen Z

SPEAKER_01 24:10

it. You can, you know, study it in college. I had a couple of really cool jobs when I first got out of school. I was always a big observer of everybody and everything. I always was somebody that would say, you know, would you be willing to spend half an hour with me? Please, I'll bring the coffee. And from the time I was in college, I did I I knew only what I didn't like. And I my father kept telling me that I was cut off. The loving phrase in my house was, you're cut off the loaf when you graduate. So like I knew I had to get my act together. Um and so I spent my Christmas break, my senior year. I had done all semester. I'd been, whatever I read, I would like to rip out articles about interesting people and stuff it, stuff it in a desk drawer, having no idea what I was gonna do with it. Pulled it all out Christmas time. Nobody had anything to do with each other. I mean, it was every kind of business and industry and name and location. And I just started writing letters to people and saying, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I'm in college. Here's my resume. Would you be willing to spend half an hour with me? I'd love to learn more about how you got your start. And that was at a time when I guess a lot of people weren't doing those kind of notes. I was stupid. I expected everyone to write and say, of course. Looking back, I'm surprised anyone wrote and said of course. But people did. And I went and spent time with, you know, like Sonny Werblin who ran Madison Square Garden. I d what was I gonna do? Run a Madison Square Garden? I didn't know, but I thought it sounded interesting. Like all these people said, Yeah, I'll sit with you. So I went, I would take the train to New York City, which was like a 90-minute train ride, and I would make little notes on my notepad of what questions I wanted to ask them, and I'd walk in in a navy blue interviewing suit because that's what they told me at college. You were supposed to wear. It was so unbelievably unattractive. You know, and uh and I would walk in and give a firm handshake and say, Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. And I would ask a lot of questions. Almost inevitably at the end of every interview, someone would say, Is there anyone else that you'd like me to introduce you to? And I would say, Yes. I would like to meet more people that do this, whatever it was. And I just kept

The Attention Economy Path

SPEAKER_01 26:02

going and going. And in many ways, it's a precursor for what I do now because I didn't know what the word networking was. I didn't know what any of that stuff. There was no LinkedIn. But I always believed if you were direct with people and you were authentic with people, you could build a group of people around you that you could sort of stress test ideas and careers and moves with. And that always worked for me and it still has. So our network now, which is a lot of lawyers and a lot of people that are in high-profile places in business, are people that I've known for a long time, or people that I met for a long time, or people I've known through activities or events or whatever. And I just didn't lose touch with, you know. And when something would come up and I would think about them, I would get in touch with them, or I would say, I saw this article and I thought made me think of you. And people like to be thought of. Everyone's favorite subject is themselves. They like to think that you remember them, right? And that you even if it has nothing to do with what you're doing right now.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Wow. I love that method of just being friendly and inquisitive and just but it takes a skill that not everybody has and it Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

To treat them all like people, to to not fan out over them, not like, oh, you're a celebrity, ooh, ooh, ooh, because that doesn't work, you know. And to not be dismissive if they've done something awful and horrible that you find offensive. It's to just meet them where they are, to understand that just like you, you know, they're getting through every day, and to befriend as many people as you can.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

It's interesting. You said something in there, not to be dismissive if they do something horrible. And I think that's interesting because you're in PR and it feels like you are able to stomach something that some people would just cut off people for, you know, and maybe that's part of the reason you've been able to navigate this field so well is that you're able to continue the communication and hear them out and find a strategy for them to navigate something or that they're

Networking Your Way Into Big Rooms

SPEAKER_02 28:00

not repair.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

But it's like not judgmental and then help them repair the mistake.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

You know, and when you meet people that have been that have either been caught doing something bad or that have to, you know, usually they're they're woped it, you know, in different ways. And even if they have a bravado, it drops after a while. And, you know, law enforcement is scary stuff. I don't care who you are and and you know what your career path has been. If you feel like you're getting in legal trouble or you're about to get in big public trouble and you're about to be on the front page of whatever, it's very humbling for most people. And it's a scary time, and they drop that facade pretty quickly and will say things like, you know, what is this gonna do to me, or what is this gonna do to my family, or how can you help me through it? And what we always say to them all the time is we're really reputation managers more than calling ourselves crisis communications. It's not just a crisis, it's trying to help them afterwards have a reputation and get back as much of their reputation as they can, even if it's a build back. I mean, no one's getting it back right away, but you know, there's a way to build back and to do good and to be seen as, you know, who you want to be seen as, and to decide how much of the life that you had was a lot of phony stuff or things you can give up or what you know. If you're if you're somewhat introspective, which some people are or not, but many people are, it does give you a chance if you've been caught doing something bad to sort of think about like this is how I want to be known for the rest of my life, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

And it can it can end up being a pivotal point in their life that could go in a different direction. Yes, if it is. Yeah. So what else does it have? Sometimes it's not.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Yeah, I'm sure. Sometimes it's not. Listen, we always say in this office the athletes and the entertainers are usually the top of the ladder, meaning no matter what they do, they can get their reputations back pretty quickly if you continue to be a great athlete, if you continue to be a fabulous entertainer, if you still can put out a you know, hit song. Uh the world is incredibly accepting. If you're a politician, if you're a teacher, if you're a religious leader, tough. Tough, tough to to Ever come back from those things because you've put yourself out of some version of a moral authority. And when you fall, most people, you know, like to have a little bit of shot before it ends that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

I think that applies to every almost every politician except for one. Sorry, but I mean it doesn't seem like it's applying to politicians as much as a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Life is law, life is circular, you don't know where things are going to end up, women. You know, we can only wait and see, right? True. That's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

So outside of crisis management, is there other type of services that you provide for PR?

SPEAKER_01 30:34

I mean, we do lots of monitoring. So for people that are concerned that things are gonna going to pop up, could pop up, you know, we monitor these situations for them on every kind of social platform that so that they don't have to. It's not healthy to be m Googling yourself day in and day out. You know, we write for people that sometimes have very high profile positions and have to speak a lot. Sometimes mergers and acquisitions we get brought in, you know, because we're gonna merge with a company, how do we talk to our employees? And we're gonna have to fire people, how do we talk to our employees? We're gonna have to relocate, how do we talk to our employees? You know, all of those kinds of more standard corporate kinds of things we do a lot of. You know, we always say what we do is sort of not in any way linked to the economy. So when the economy's good, people do stupid stuff. When the economy is bad, people do stupid stuff. We're at people, we're humans do stupid stuff. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, right, who's in office, who's not in office.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Just we're dumb. Keeps rolling along.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Keeps rolling along. Apparently, humans don't learn their lessons. No. I want to touch base a little bit on the you being appointed the New Jersey Film and Television Commissioner. Um, how did that come about and what is

Judgment, Humility, and Repair

SPEAKER_02 31:45

the role?

SPEAKER_01 31:45

So um, as I said, I was appointed by Governor Murphy, and I was delighted. And I'm still relatively new in that I'm only a year into my term. A couple of the big cases we worked on have been turned into major motion pictures. So I think that probably was helpful. So I've been on Which one? The movie Hustlers with Jennifer Lopez about the women who were scamming the guys who right, yeah. That's actually that case has a lot of New Jersey roots. And Bombshell, which was the Roger Ailes written as well. And I've worked, I was a technical consultant to Nashville, I was a technical consultant to The Good Wife, to a bunch of things. So I'm comfortable on television sets and movie sets. I think that was part of it. I have a daughter who's a director, I have a son who's a producer, so this world, this universe is not unfamiliar to me. Um, so I think that was part of what got me on. And then since I've been on, it's been fascinating. It's exciting that New Jersey is gonna have probably three, if not more, studios within the next few years built throughout the state. I think it's gonna bring a whole level of both creative people to New Jersey that probably don't live here now because one of the conditions is that they hire people. They don't just bring them from where they're relocating, that they actually hire them from here. So I think that's gonna bring a creative community here, which sounds exciting. I think it's gonna bring interesting jobs here that have not been here before, like wardrobe people and makeup people and set designers and things like that. So that's always exciting. I think that there's a level of disruption to communities that we've been able to be helpful with because not everyone is used to having people shutting down streets and, you know, relocating things and all that at odd hours of the day and night or whatever it is. But the job of the film commission is to really encourage television production in any form, commercials, television shows, mini-series, you know, and film documentaries to big blockbusters to film here and to see the advantages of New Jersey. And I think people are sometimes surprised that if they need a lighthouse, we have it. And if they need an urban center, we have it. So a lot of it is a sell job is letting everybody who makes these decisions know, and then a pricing job to try to be competitive with what other markets are offering. I hope whoever's an ex-governor really sees the value of this industry and it should be nonpartisan, that this is a great investment

Who Rebounds—and Who Doesn’t

SPEAKER_01 34:05

for the state and a great way for the state to get away from some of the yucky images that the state had for a long time. Um and I would hope whoever's an ex-governor would continue it.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Well, it's been really great to get a chance to talk to you and some you know, perspective on crisis and PR, how how it's evolving. And if we ever have a crisis, we know who to call.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Everybody that I speak to says the same thing, which is I hope I never have to call you. And we say, we hope you don't either. But if you do, you know how to find us. That's what we say. Yes. Listen, iTunes, what you're doing to help promote New Jersey and talent New Jersey is hugely important, and I think it's great. And I congratulate you both.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Thank you. Thank you both so much. This podcast was produced by Rachel Martens and Jeanette Afsharian. You can find us on Spotify, iTunes, and Buzz Sprout. Thanks for listening. See you next week.