Staging engaged - being a lawyer and a manager

Mission Possible: Leading, Managing and Delivering

In this episode, Andy Whiteaker, Partner and Head of Employment at Boyes Turner, is joined by Christian Waida from OpenText and Ben Martin from Wordsmith to talk about what it really takes to balance being both a lawyer and a manager.

They dive into how to build a positive team culture where people feel supported, trusted, and motivated to do their best work. Ben shares why empowering juniors to take the lead and making space for fun and connection keeps teams engaged, while Christian talks about creating an environment where people actually enjoy what they do because when they do, everyone wins.

The panel also tackles trust, transparency, and the importance of following through on your promises as a leader. Plus, they explore how to hire the right people, focusing on attitude and willingness to learn over technical skills.

A thoughtful conversation on leadership, culture, and building teams that thrive inside and outside the legal world.

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Transcript

Setting The Stage And Panel Intro

Andrew Whiteaker 0:01

So, hi everybody. For those of you that don't know me, my name's Andy Whitaker. I'm a partner and head of the employment team at Boys Turner. And I'm very pleased to say that I'm accompanied by two panel members today. So we've got um Christian Weider from OpenText and Ben Martin from Wordsmith. So I have um, hi, this is Andy

Defining Culture And Career Support

Andrew Whiteaker 0:21

Whitaker. We've just finished our session upstairs, uh, where we spoke about being a lawyer and a manager and how we can successfully be both uh in our everyday work. And the two topics that we covered um during our uh discussion that probably generated the most amount of interest was about how we positively build a culture and make it a place that our our colleagues want to work and how they enjoy engaging with us and feel they're a sense of a of something bigger, but also feel that they're uh supported through their career progression. And then also about getting the right people into the roles in the first place. So maybe kicking off um with that that culture point, um, who wants to jump in here on this about the the importance of building that culture and those positive steps that you could take? So perhaps Ben, you can start us off with this

Empowering Juniors And Rituals

Andrew Whiteaker 1:06

one.

Ben Martin 1:06

Sure. So I think for me, the one of the key things to have in a team is that your juniors feel empowered to take the lead on projects, to come up with ideas, to make things happen themselves. Um, because I think if I put myself in their shoes back when I was a junior, that was exactly what I wanted, and that was what made me feel really valued. In terms of the creating a culture and having people get to know each other, I think having regular touch points such as a daily 15-minute stand-up in the morning to chat what everyone's got on, as well as meetings where there are strategic points being discussed and you have input from all levels, are really important. And and finally just getting together and having some fun, seeing what the team likes doing, is it going out for dinner, is it going for a walk, whatever they want to do, and and factoring some of that into team meetups and yeah, when you get together.

Andrew Whiteaker 2:10

Yeah, absolutely. And and Christian, similar experiences for you.

Joyful Work Drives Performance

Christian Waida 2:14

Yes. So we we follow a very, very I follow a very, very simple principle, uh, which is um we as human beings are good at the things that we enjoy doing, um, and things that we don't enjoy doing, we're not good at, we're just kind of delayed, don't want to do it now. But the things that we that we enjoy doing, we're good at, and we put in the extra effort. Um, so if I'm able to create an environment where everybody on the team is able to enjoy themselves because they have uh wonderful interactions with their colleagues that go beyond the day-to-day work, um, where they have interesting work um and and get the challenges that that individuals need. Um we create an environment at the end of the day where people enjoy what they do, they're good at it, they put in the extra effort, and it's a win-win situation. It's great for the employee and it's great for the company.

Follow-Through And Manager Focus

Andrew Whiteaker 3:08

Yeah, and one thing we didn't actually touch upon in our conversation earlier was around the importance of following through, I suppose. And actually, if you make promises, if you give people assurances, if you say you're going to do something, you you need to do it. And sometimes we can be distracted in a senior management role of maybe managing up too much and being too concerned about reporting to the C-suite or whoever it might be, and being so focused on our what we perceive to be our jobs or our responsibilities, and that can sometimes come with the knock-on effect of neglecting the smaller issues or the issues that are of great concern to the people that report into you, and by focusing only on the things that you perceive to be important, you then ignore the stuff that other people really consider to be important, and that can have a huge negative impact upon culture and upon the attitude and the experience of

Trust, Open Doors, And Candor

Andrew Whiteaker 4:00

your team.

Christian Waida 4:00

I think a key element of this is trust, um, and trust at all levels. Um, you have to have an open door policy where uh someone further down in the organization is not worried to talk to you directly, uh, or is not worried if I call them directly because I want to discuss a matter that they're working on. Um and this trust, yes, never promise anything that you do not absolutely 100% know, you will keep it. Um if you don't know, you can keep your word, then caveat is well, look, I'll try I'll try to do my best, but uh I can't promise anything. Um over time, this trust builds, and the organization, and that's part of the culture, right? Um in your family, you trust everybody. At work, if you create an environment where people trust each other and trust their colleagues, it makes you relax. You don't have to pay attention to, well, do I believe that or do I not believe that? It makes it a lot easier.

Andrew Whiteaker 5:06

Yeah, and and for you,

Transparency Without Undermining

Andrew Whiteaker 5:07

Ben.

Ben Martin 5:07

Yeah, I think I would add to that probably transparency being important. Um, be that, you know, like you were saying, Christian, about not promising something that you can't get or overpromising, but I think also being quite honest with your team. So if there is something that comes in that is from the top down and you you don't necessarily think it's going to work or you you you disagree with it, I think you can be honest with your team and say, This is the this is the direction we're being told we need to go, we need to get behind it, but let's make some contingency in case it doesn't work, because I think there might be these problems. And I th I think that's you can go too far with that and kind of complain and turn into a manager that's complaining to his staff, which you absolutely do not want to do. But on the other hand, if you're saying something is the most wonderful thing in the world, but clearly it's not a beneficial thing or it's not going to be good, and you can temper that temper that by being honest, I th I think that's really important to build that trust.

Andrew Whiteaker 6:12

You you don't want to damage your credibility, do you, and by by by failing

Why Hiring Right Now Matters

Andrew Whiteaker 6:16

to do that. Um the other topic that we touched upon that had a a lot of interaction afterwards and lots of questions coming was around recruitment. And again, putting my employment lawyers hat for one on for one moment, this is an issue that's going to become ever more pressing over the next couple of years with the with the changes um proposed in the employment rights bill and therefore those added responsibilities upon employers to follow processes from the commencement of an individual's employment and potential sanctions and penalties imposed if we fail to

Hire For Personality And Learning

Andrew Whiteaker 6:47

do so. So it's going to become legally more important, but over and above your legal responsibilities, the importance of getting the right person and then supporting them when you've got them is of paramount importance.

Christian Waida 6:59

I I would always say a higher personality and not skill. Skills you can learn, but personality you can't. You have it, um, you have your personality that you have, and if it's the right personality, fantastic. Um personality means someone who is willing and able to learn new things. Um and it doesn't matter what you've done before, um, if you're able and willing to learn, you will learn whatever is required. Whereas if someone has the skills that you have to have in that very moment when you hire the person, but they're not able and willing to learn, then in a year from now, when they need to obtain, acquire new skills, they can't, and they struggle. And you as and the organization will struggle because then you have a problem with an employee. Um it's a performance issue, and you have to to to find other ways around solving the problem, which you avoid if you hire the right people in the first place.

Andrew Whiteaker 8:04

And what sort of approaches have you taken, Ben?

Diverse Paths And Proven Fits

Ben Martin 8:06

Yeah, so I think for for me, one of the real positives that I had with with the team I worked with at Trustpilot was we had a number of individuals who came through as trainees and they came from different backgrounds. So we had someone who had previously worked as on the support side, had a really good business understanding, and we had someone who was coming from more of a legal background initially. Having those people coming in with different perspectives and both having the the right mindset meant that we for growth and for you know driving things forward meant that they were really good people to bring in. And by having that context and established relationship, it meant that we we were able to very quickly bring them back into the team after they were trainees and get them up and running. Another success we had of making a really good hire was someone who actually came in as a backfill contractor. And again, just having that relationship with that person and know it seeing them work for three months, it made it really obvious that they were the right person for the job. So I th I think those those elements of having knowing the person where you can do that, it's a it's a real benefit.

Willingness To Learn Beats Experience

Christian Waida 9:20

One example from us would be um we we've hired someone, we're we're a software um business, so we we do software licensing and SaaS. Um and I've hired someone who trained and and was for a number of years a financial derivatives lawyer, no experience in the software industry whatsoever. Um and that person became a superstar um because he had the two key elements ability to learn and willingness to learn.

Andrew Whiteaker 9:49

Well it thanks once again for your time.

Closing Thanks And Wrap

Andrew Whiteaker 9:51

Really enjoyed being on the panel with you this morning and appreciate also you giving up your time now to do this quick retread. Thanks both, Ben and Christian.