Embracing Evolution in Crypto: Sundae Labs and the Cardano Ecosystem Renaissance
Feb 18, 2024
Brian, Epoch, Jenny, Lido, Block Jock, Noodz
Ever wondered what propels a math lover to become a blockchain innovator? Pi, the CTO of Sundae Labs, joins us for an electrifying look inside the Cardano ecosystem, detailing his leap from Bitcoin enthusiast to Cardano devotee. His journey is not just a tale of personal evolution, but a narrative rich with the complexities and community spirit that drive blockchain progress. We dissect the inception of Sundae Swap, understanding how a side hustle can ignite a career at the forefront of cryptocurrency innovation, and witness the unity and support from a community that's more like family.
This episode isn't just about the backstory; it's also a plunge into the technological marvels of Sundae Swap V3 and the strides made post-Conway hard fork. Pi illuminates the technical challenges and triumphs, from migrating liquidity to the enhancements in blockchain efficiency fueled by reference scripts. Our discussion underscores the foresight needed by developers in this space, where smart contracts are not ephemeral but enduring monuments in the digital landscape. A collaboration with the USDM project serves as a prime example of strategic partnerships shaping the blockchain's future.
As we gaze into the crystal ball of the Cardano ecosystem, we talk Sundae Swap's cutting-edge features like dynamic order strategies and platform interoperability. The UTXO model's potential to supercharge platform performance has us on the edge of our seats for what's next in the market cycles.
Ever wondered what propels a math lover to become a blockchain innovator? Pi, the CTO of Sundae Labs, joins us for an electrifying look inside the Cardano ecosystem, detailing his leap from Bitcoin enthusiast to Cardano devotee. His journey is not just a tale of personal evolution, but a narrative rich with the complexities and community spirit that drive blockchain progress. We dissect the inception of Sundae Swap, understanding how a side hustle can ignite a career at the forefront of cryptocurrency innovation, and witness the unity and support from a community that's more like family.
This episode isn't just about the backstory; it's also a plunge into the technological marvels of Sundae Swap V3 and the strides made post-Conway hard fork. Pi illuminates the technical challenges and triumphs, from migrating liquidity to the enhancements in blockchain efficiency fueled by reference scripts. Our discussion underscores the foresight needed by developers in this space, where smart contracts are not ephemeral but enduring monuments in the digital landscape. A collaboration with the USDM project serves as a prime example of strategic partnerships shaping the blockchain's future.
As we gaze into the crystal ball of the Cardano ecosystem, we talk Sundae Swap's cutting-edge features like dynamic order strategies and platform interoperability. The UTXO model's potential to supercharge platform performance has us on the edge of our seats for what's next in the market cycles.
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Speaker 1:
But without further ado, my friend Pie, we are getting the second serving going on right now, so retweet the room, rebate the boop and get it in here, because we are gonna talk shop on this amazing flavorful combination of ideas called Sunday V3 Pie. Good morning, my friend. Happy Friday. How are you?
Speaker 3:
Good morning. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1:
Thank you so much for being here, man. It is awesome to enjoy your conversation in your time. I know you're a very busy guy in the ecosystem and this idea of Sunday V3 has been making its rounds across the ecosystem on the timeline. I know that you've stopped in also too, in some epochs and spaces, for example, and just talking shop. On there there's a paper circulating man, so I am so stoked to get into it. But could you perhaps give a little just introduction to yourself for people who may not know the man behind the PFP? I've met you in person at the Summit 21 NFT NYC, at the JPEG party, my friend, but I've never heard your background. Where does Pie come from and how did you find your way into Cardano?
Speaker 3:
Yeah, so for those who don't know me, my name is Pie that is like the number. I got my name legally changed. It was kind of a nickname that really stuck because you know, and I leaned into it because I was finding my love of mathematics at the time and kind of just really became an identity that I could make my own. I am the CTO at Sunday Labs. We're a general blockchain software company. We do consulting, we do audits, we build software, and our flagship product, the one that we kind of put most of our time towards, is the Sunday Swap Exchange, which is a decentralized protocol that we wrote the smart contracts for and we maintain a bunch of the infrastructure for.
Speaker 3:
So my background if you are curious, I've told this story a bunch of times, so apologies to those who've heard it, but I got into programming when I was pretty young. My uncle taught programming at the University of Utah and got me into it because I wanted to make a game. And then in 2009 or 2010, kind of late 2009, early 2010, there was a website called Slashtot that had a bunch of just tech news and they posted an article that linked to the Bitcoin white paper and I read it and I found it super fascinating and so I went to the Bitcoin talk forums and I downloaded the miner and managed to mine three different blocks on my laptop. This was shortly before GPU mining was invented and it was shortly. It was back when Bitcoin was emitting 50 Bitcoin per block. I was around for the Bitcoin pizza. Fast forward a couple of years Bitcoin is hitting $1, which is kind of exciting, but not a super big deal. And my laptop gets stolen and I didn't. Bitcoin was just a toy at the time. I didn't have a backup of the wallet, so I got really bitter about crypto for a number of years and kind of left and ignored it and said, oh, it's just a fad, it's gonna go away, focused on my own career.
Speaker 3:
Fast forward to 2017, 2018, that big bull run where Bitcoin first hit 20K and one of my coworkers said I know that you had this bad experience, but you should check out Cardano. And it really recreated the same emotion in me as an engineer that Bitcoin did in terms of trying to tackle real problems and really advance the space. And so I set aside my kind of begrudging resentment of crypto, reexamined what the potential of crypto was and why it could be valuable and got back into it with Cardano, bought some Cardano and then life got busy and so I ignored it for a couple of years and then during the pandemic I was like, oh, I've got some Cardano sitting around, let me see you how that's doing. Saw that they had just launched the Shelley era where you could do staking, and kind of just started participating.
Speaker 3:
And then somebody randomly emailed me and said hey, we're building a decentralized exchange. Would you like to be involved? So it kind of just started as a side project after work and quickly became my entire life and that has kind of consumed all of my waking hours for quite a while now. So really happy to be here and be building this company that we are and be such an integral part of the space. I'm really honored and blessed that people seem to like what I say. So hopefully that wasn't too rambly and was interesting to some people.
Speaker 1:
No man. That was perfect, articulate and very interesting. I think that many people share the same sort of comeuppance when it comes to things like Cardano, where you are kind of marginally interested at first, learn a little bit more, and it really sparks that light bulb on in the mind, and then it just becomes all-encompassing when every single day is just dedicated to the ecosystem. I love it, man. What a very awesome story, and I thank you, too for your introduction and orientation describing Sunday Labs. I feel that many people often look to Sunday Swap and presume that that is the totality of what you do, and indeed you are firing at all cylinders in many respects, and Sunday Swap is your flagship product, in addition to many other things that you're doing, my man, so I'm really excited to get into this today.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, lately I've been saying that I've been burning the candle at all three ends.
Speaker 5:
Nice, you're gonna teach us a trick.
Speaker 6:
What kind of candle do you light up?
Speaker 1:
Well, speaking of burning it down, we got Big Joe the Don with a hand up, and then we're gonna get into Sunday V3, baby Sure.
Speaker 7:
Yeah, just a quick question Are you gonna name your first child 1.772, because that's your square root?
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I'm sure my future wife will probably have an issue with that, so probably not.
Speaker 1:
I love it, man, I love it. Such a great tribute to mathematics and very, very good.
Speaker 6:
Do you know what? I was thinking? That one year ago, like around that party, the JPEG party, that's when you guys were doing V2. So it's been a whole year since V2, right?
Speaker 3:
Yeah, absolutely, and that's probably a great segue. So you know some people might be confused. Sunday V3, you know where was Sunday V2? You know. So Sunday V3 is a rewrite of the smart contracts, the V1 smart contracts. In theory, we could have called this the Sunday V2 contracts, but we have just done a big marketing push around this time last year about our new UI rewrite and we called that V2. And when we started talking about doing a V2 of the contracts, people got really confused. They're like well, didn't you just do a V2? Why? You know what's going on and so we just decided to.
Speaker 3:
You know, the next big thing that we release, regardless of whether it's the UI or the contracts, will be Sunday V3. And so you know we might fall into an even odd pattern where we do, you know, big UI updates, big contract updates. But that being said, so the Sunday V3 represents the first time we've really had the opportunity to revisit the smart contracts that we wrote. You know, at this point, over two years ago now. You know we launched a little over two years ago, meaning we wrote these smart contracts in November and September and October of 2021. So you know, it's been a really long while and it's an unfortunate fact of software development that you make the most important decisions about your product when you know the least about the problem space. And that's, you know, maybe just amplified intensely by Web3, where what you build is permanent and the smart contracts that you write and you put out there in the world for people to interact with become immutable. And that's a really great property about Web3. But it's also a real big challenge of building. So with Sunday V3, it's a new set of contracts and it allows us to kind of apply all of the expertise and learning and real-world feedback that we've kind of gathered over those two years and build, you know, a really remarkably improved product, we feel.
Speaker 3:
And there's, you know, if you're interested, I would encourage you to go and read the white paper. Or, if you know, reading is in your jam. I've done a couple of YouTube interviews now that go really deep into those, into the different features One on Cardano with Paul's channel, one on DAPS Central with Faheed or Faheed, and then a couple other that I'm forgetting right now. So really, you know, have done some really deep dives recorded, with two hours with Faheed the other day. So lots of content if you really want to get into the nitty-gritty, but in kind of the space we have here, I would like to highlight maybe three main talking points for features that get us really excited.
Speaker 1:
Hell yeah, man, and before we get into, that real quick. I just want to say I have pinned up at the top a direct link from the Sunday Swap account where you can check out the V3 edition of this paper, another pinned tweet talking about the kind of mechanics and robustness of this V3, and then also to the DAPS Central link there at the top where you can check out this deep dive to our conversation. But tell us, man, the top three.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, yeah. So maybe the flagship that gets most people excited is the scalability improvements. And this is particularly relevant to Sunday, given kind of our rocky history. So those who've been around for a while maybe remember our launch was not the smoothest launch. Some of that was things that we've learned to improve since then. Some of it was us really kind of pressure testing Cardano. We've tried to be really cognizant and acknowledging of that and kind of our role in that. But that made us really want to make sure that when we launched this new protocol we're ready for any amount of throughput that the upcoming bull run could throw at us, and so we spent an incredible amount of time just really shaving off every little bit of execution units and making these the most efficient contracts that we possibly could.
Speaker 3:
And what we've managed to achieve is in the Sunday V1 contracts generally on average we can do two to four orders per swap, generally more on the two to three side, and that's for a number of reasons. Plutus TX at the time was really expensive and so it uses up all those execution units really quickly. But also there's this weird bug that if you include too large of a batch, the Cardano node sorts your inputs by their transaction hash and so it will process users' orders out of order, which we didn't realize when we were building it and kind of means that we have to break up our batch sizes into these small. You know the math term would be monotonically increasing inputs, which basically just means you know, instead of having the full eight orders that we could fit in the V1 contracts if we wanted to, we have to split it up into small two to four order batches, which is really frustrating.
Speaker 3:
With Sunday V3, we kind of now are aware of that problem and have solved it and done a lot to optimize it. And you know, at maximum we can fit 35 orders per batch. Then in practice, depending on what types of orders are in the batch and things like that, it might be closer to 30. That represents a 10x to 15x increase in throughput. There's a ton of vanity metrics you can derive from that to compare it to other protocols that range from the realistic to the unrealistic. But the key takeaway is that no matter how intense the upcoming bull run, we expect to be really well prepared for that throughput and can go toe-to-toe with the best of them, even from other chains. We're really excited and happy about that.
Speaker 1:
I love it, man. Again, pinned at the top is just that breakdown talking about the 30, 35 orders for scoop. It definitely seems like it's a lot more robust. I didn't see we have some hands up and I want to get to them. But one question I have for you is that many people have talked about the limitations of the DeFi ecosystem with respect to Cardano. Moving things from V1 to V2 to V3. It seems like V1 in some senses, with some liquidity pools, is not something we can ever truly just abandon and move beyond. I know that the migration is a huge undertaking and you proposed a SIP, I believe, to mitigate this problem and address it so that we're able to accommodate all versions of the contract.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, so I could talk about this for a minute. I've also gone much deeper on this on both of the interviews that I've done. But so when you build for Web3, you really should be building forever, right, like that is, or at least for a very, very long time horizon. That is why we are strongly committed to blockchain and this immutable ledger that we can rely on for decades to come, and for that reason, sunday V1 and Minswap V1 aren't really going away, right, whether it's from well, those smart contracts are out there and even if we took that capability off of the main Sunday swap website, you can place an order through Indigo. You can place an order through the MewslySwap dex aggregator. Dex Hunter is going to be directing orders there. There are people who've written automated bots that trade on Sunday swap V1 and those aren't going away.
Speaker 3:
So there's going to be traffic against Sunday V1 for a very, very long time and there will always be liquidity in Sunday swap V1, because I've heard from many projects that they burned their LP tokens so they can't even migrate their liquidity to Sunday V3 if they wanted to, which is maybe unfortunate. I highly discourage burning LP tokens. If you want to give confidence to your community. I'd recommend a time block instead, or maybe like a very broad multi-sig or something like that. But that means that there's always going to be liquidity and there's always going to be some amount of arbitrage opportunity between different versions of these protocols. Now, normally this wouldn't be a big problem, right? Okay, you know the traffic is going to decline a lot and it's, you know, not a big deal, and most people will switch over to V3, but if V1 gets used every once in a while, you know who cares?
Speaker 3:
The big problem is that there is such a big difference in the performance of, and in particular, the bytes in the transaction and in the block that are occupied by Plutus V1 contracts versus Plutus V2 contracts. It's not so much about that one protocol's performance but about how they pollute the space around them for other protocols. You know, if there's one protocol taking up 70% of the block, then even those more efficient protocols struggle to get their transactions into a block and it kind of degrades the experience for everyone else. I picture it like you know, a chemical company dumping pollution into the water. And this is the root cause of this is because Plutus V2 introduced something called reference scripts, which allow you to publish the script that you want to run once and then refer to it in other transactions, kind of like a citation.
Speaker 3:
If you're writing a paper, you don't want to include the whole paper you're referencing every time you talk about it in line. You just want to have a footnote and say, oh, go look and read this paper if you're more interested. So reference scripts are very similar in that regard and they weren't made to be backwards compatible with Plutus V1. And that means that even today, if you run a Plutus V1 script, you know you have to include that entire other paper in line when you cite it and every time you cite it, which is really frustrating.
Speaker 3:
And so my sip which actually you know really exciting news I woke up to a GitHub notification this morning has now been implemented in the ledger, so it will be in the next Conway hard fork. It might even make its way onto Sandshownet pretty soon, but that basically just. It doesn't change how Plutus V1 scripts execute. So it doesn't change any of the logic. It's not at risk of breaking any smart contracts. It just allows you to say, hey, when you want to run this script, go look here, instead of having to provide it in line, and, and that just you know, there's still an impetus for protocols to upgrade to Plutus V2 and provide these better offerings, like MinSaw V2 or Sunday V3 or any of the other protocols that will undoubtedly be upgrading, but it basically allows them to stop dumping chemicals in the river.
Speaker 1:
I love it, man. That's such an important context, I think, because there's a lot of sentiment where people are like when V2, that's the only three, or when V3 might come on, and I think it's really great to kind of think about things holistically, right in addressing the different mechanics, again that you addressed some. Some projects can't even move ever from those things. So we need to have comprehensive accommodation, man, and you're doing amazing work in that regard. But we do have some hands up. I did see Cardano review and then Blockjock thrown the mono in the air. So, Cardano review, did you have a question for our esteemed guest? I'm going to take that as a maybe stuck in the transaction. But Blackjack, what do?
Speaker 5:
you got for us. Hey guys, first off, pi, I want to say thank you for really just being in our space one. I know it was a rocky start in the beginning and you guys were the first to do this, so definitely the pioneer, as far as I know. There was other Dexes at the time, but Sunday was the biggie and I remember sitting there hitting refresh over and over again, typing in my C phrase over and over again, trying to get a transaction in, and I sat there, my wife's like what are you doing? It's like for two hours, and I'm like I'm trying to get a transaction. She's like okay, and she just walked away. You know I'm going to be crazy.
Speaker 5:
So where we're at now, from where we are then, is absolutely amazing. And one of the things I want to also thank you for is the amount of foresight you had when you were working with us with our smart contracts, with Mihan, with USDM, in order to allow us to one not just give us suggestions, but help us to understand it, which is key, especially for those of us who are not as tech minded as some of the other people in the group and then, from there, wrap our heads around just exactly what it meant for us for future and future proof for us, and that was absolutely amazing. So, for those of you who don't know, sunday Labs, audit abilities and also their ability to be able to not just look at what you got but also give you suggestions that will help you in the future is absolutely amazing. So that's really cool. I'm on your the app now on the decks and I absolutely love the new UI UX, the way it looks.
Speaker 5:
I haven't been on here for a minute. I do apologize, no worries, it's up in the axle for a second. You know how it is, but I'm looking at this now and it's super simple but, at the same time, gives me all the information that I need and it's highly intuitive for somebody like me. That just isn't that tech oriented as others are, so I just want to say thank you for that and also that's it that you're putting out having to do with. Why do I want to go to a house, bring everything, I load all of things into my house and then, in order to go to 7-Eleven, I got to take my whole house with me to 7-Eleven and then come back.
Speaker 5:
I just think about it like, what are we doing? That makes no sense. The load on chain is absolutely ridiculous and that's it that you came up with, for that is just genius. So thanks for that. So that's all I got is platitudes, pal, but I absolutely love you, man, and for anybody in the audience who's never met the man in person, he is just as genuine as he is on the show when you meet him in person, and he's absolutely an amazing person to get to know. So, anyway, that's all I've got. Cardano review.
Speaker 3:
Well, hold on, let me just respond to a little bit of that. So thank you so much. I'm kind of blushing over here a bit. I don't take compliments, well, but you know thanks for giving me the opportunity to plug Sunday Labs' kind of audit and design consulting company.
Speaker 3:
So if you're out there building a protocol, we love to engage with people early in particular right. So a lot of people come to us for an audit very late in the game and one of the main things that we look at with an audit is not just you know, are you secure? But we really want to provide you, like you were saying, that holistic view of you know, what are the economic sides of the protocol that you've built? What are the maintainability and extensibility sides of the protocol you built? And so with Mehan, we had a great example of that.
Speaker 3:
The protocol itself was pretty solid. It was just we foresaw you having a lot of difficulty if you ever wanted to upgrade the protocol and you had new, better ideas in the future. So we were able to make a great recommendation and you finished that off and we're now closing out the audit very, very soon. So a lot of that could have been saved if you. You know if a project engaged with us earlier, right before you've even written the code, save you a bunch of time. So feel free to reach out to us. We're happy to you know. We just do flat rate, hourly consulting, whether it's design consultant to help you design your protocol or an audit. At the end we're happy to work with anybody on building on Cardano Cool. So who's next with the question?
Speaker 8:
Cardano review.
Speaker 8:
Hey what's up. Yeah, I heard you guys speaking earlier. My apologies, I was at work. I was making a delivery so I couldn't talk. Right then I just wanted to come up to say that I was here in Piespeak and I just wanted to say shout out to you, your story very much resonates, similar to mine. Mine, essentially, was like I was. I knew about Bitcoin, but on hindsight I didn't know about Bitcoin. I got some coins when they were like $11 and where are they today? I don't even know. I didn't know what I was doing or nothing, and I kind of just like let it go. Like.
Speaker 8:
I really started into the crypto space with Cardano. It's like someone told me about it and I had heard about it, but I just didn't really like hop into it. But I really hopped into it, like just last year, and been building ever since, at least in terms of like my channel and my social media. When it comes to like all the technical stuff, I'm still like, I'm still lost like half the time. But what is easy is to like set up a wallet. That's easy to do. It's easy to connect it to the exchange. It's easy to connect it to like a Sunday swap, or it's easy to connect to, like any other things that are out there.
Speaker 8:
And one of the things I do like about Sunday swap is the graphics. I like the name, I like how it's like ice cream themed, it's like cute, it's friendly and I know like I hear a lot of people don't really use it and I hear like there's various reasons and then people start explaining like all the technical reasons and things and half the time that technical stuff goes over my head. So I just wish you guys the best with B3 and I'm hoping that everything is solved and I really looking forward to seeing like more swaps on Sunday swap and, like I really like the name. I really just enjoy what you've been doing and everything that the team has been doing over there at that at that exchange. So, yeah, big props to you. Shouts out Awesome, thank you.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, man, big shout out to the UI UX design I love also to the strategy that you outlined with respect to kind of alternating between UI UX improvement, quality of life for users of the platform and then maybe some more technical things on the other side. But I had done a little mobile experience myself when it was released and I had shared just a screenshot of it and, honestly, very seamless from the user side experience using Vespa wallet and just being able to swap for a very, very seamless type of experience. Man, so very appreciative of those types of developments. Any aspects of the UI UX that you wanted to speak to directly?
Speaker 3:
No, just shout out to our team. I'm not a front end developer, so if it was up to me, you'd have the ugliest website in existence. You'd have a time cube decks, but we've got a really, really solid front end team. I'm really proud of what they build and a lot of that stuff like the mobile friendliness really just is second nature to them. So we didn't even have a roadmap item to make Sunday swap mobile friendly. They just built it to be mobile friendly from the get go and it worked out. Maybe we made a few tweaks down the road, but yeah, they're a really great team. I'm really glad to be working with them.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely, man, and I want to encourage everybody to check out this platform itself for the UI UX and also to read the white paper we are kind of getting. We can start late so we're not pressed for time by any means just yet, but I did want to give you a shout out. This is a very interesting white paper. I know you circulated with a lot of people, got some really meaningful feedback. What I love about it is that it's very self-reflective, where you're talking about the shortcomings of V1 and then talking about you know, beyond these shortcomings of the original protocol, increasing it for what you say, a detailed specification for upgraded protocol, explaining the motivations and design decisions. And, with that in mind, your previous statement about accommodation I think is just brilliant, and one of my favorite kind of little snippets of it is on the second to last page where you're talking about some of the most challenging things for building V3 is the long view of the work that you do with any other kind of software when you discover a bug or think of a new feature fairly simple to release a new version.
Speaker 1:
However, these contracts are, in a real sense, built for last forever. Even when we release new contracts, they live alongside the old ones without ever completely replacing them, and you're focusing heavily on extensibility the ability for us and others to build new order contracts, new pool contracts that serve different market needs and is essential for shortening the loop and ensuring that it's not two years between upgrades. Man, so really comprehensive. Definitely need to check that out. I really really love the publication that you put out here. That I saw was that the had a little 314 in the minute mark release on Pete's conversation learning Cardano podcast over there called that, but how was the feedback when you sent this thing out? I saw a lot of people really impressed with it, and then we're going to get to some hands and then kind of round things off.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I mean the feedback was pretty good. I actually, you know, I want to use my remaining time. I was going to give kind of three big highlights that I never got to the first one, so let me just really quickly. I want to make sure that people know what to be excited about or what they might want to go read more about. So the second big theme that we focused on is interoperability. So I think what will really make Cardano shine in the upcoming bull run is not, you know, the killer DAP, the one siloed experience that is really nice, but the flows that we can create by leveraging the UTXO model. So really being able to say, oh, I want to mint a synthetic on Indigo and immediately provide it as liquidity through a zap on Sunday swap, or the ability to take a native token, sell it for ADA and use that to buy an NFT on the other end, and like really building these interconnected flows. And so we really focused, both in the smart contracts and in little ways like a really comprehensive SDK, in making it really easy to build with Sunday swap. So really we want the Sunday swap protocol to become a tool in other protocols toolbox where they say, hey, if we have a scenario where the user has one token and they need a different one in order to do this action that's relevant to our protocol. We can reach for Sunday swap and let them swap through Sunday swap to achieve that flow and I think really kind of lacing up the entire ecosystem into one cohesive garment, as opposed to just separate pieces of fabric, will really supercharge Cardano for this next bull run. So I encourage anybody who is building a protocol to maybe think about that, you know, and, whether it's integrating with Sunday or integrating with other protocols, really think about how can we tie together that whole ecosystem. And then, finally, the last theme that we focused on. Well, we focused on a bunch of themes, but the last one I'll highlight for today is the programmability and flexibility of the protocol, Whether that is just more order types and the ability to define new order types, things like expiring orders or time to kill or, like you know, fill or kill orders and things like that.
Speaker 3:
Or, you know, the feature that maybe we're most proud of as engineers is this feature called strategies. Strategies take a lot of. You know, I always love to give credit where it's due, so it takes a lot of inspiration from the ideas behind programmable swaps that act so pioneered. So we think that that's a really interesting model, that ability to embed highly reactive protocols and trading strategies we took.
Speaker 3:
You know we made some different tradeoffs and kind of approached it architecturally a bit different. I don't think any either approach is better or worse than the other. But you know the model that AXA was taking wasn't necessarily the right fit for the protocol that Sunday is trying to be. But you know we have this feature called strategies that allow these programmable, reactive, very dynamic order strategies you know it's in the name to execute and the great thing about these is that you can write them in any programming language you want. And you know, really the sky is the limit on what you can build using that and we're really excited to see what people build with that. And you know, go read the white paper or watch the interviews if you want to know more about how we achieve that or if you want to reach out to me if you want to get started building now.
Speaker 1:
I love it, man. Those are two great things in terms of your aspirations for this v3 and some great things that are coming, for we got some great hands coming up. I'm gonna go to Jenny just respect. I don't know if she's maybe. Yeah, but a joke and abstract.
Speaker 6:
Yep, I am actually about to go on play mode. I just want to say thank you, pie, for coming. I appreciate everything you do. Please come back more often. Keep us updated. I love the work that you put in, you know, in this ecosystem. And thank you after it goes so happy to your anniversary and and thanks everybody, and I'll see you later, which is good luck on this workshop where we're gonna try to come up with, you know, this code of conduct for DREPs, so we'll see how that goes safe like Jenny safe travels.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, safe travels, jenny. Thank you for those beautiful words, and totally agree with that sentiment, but I do join us again. It's an amazing time to have you here with us. We have Big Joe, the Don and then abstract potato. Before we get into some final words on these amazing futures coming out from Sunday labs yeah, um pie, I hope you don't take this as being rude or intrusive at all.
Speaker 7:
Um, but I want to ask the questions that the people really want to know. So I'm just gonna be straightforward. On the scale from contemplating marriage proposal to being my number one stalker, um, how much do you admire me in particular and how much have I inspired you? If you'd like to share that with the people, thank you well, I never kiss and tell, so I'll leave that as a community
Speaker 1:
amazing question. Love it, love it so much. Thank you, big Joe, the Don abstract potato, our other featured guests in the dead. You have a question for pie here?
Speaker 2:
absolutely, I'm really curious about a bunch of stuff and I'll probably go through some of the interviews because there was something that you just mentioned which I think yeah, and I'm just kind of asking more for clarification, and this is this is what kind of came to my mind is like what would there be a scenario in which what you guys are building would be more like, let's say, somebody wants to buy something off of you know my website, the starch right, like one of the NFTs or something? Could it be like using your part, your protocols? Could it be something around the lines of like, spend husky, the husky equivalent of starch in order to to buy it, and then I, or the husky, you know any whatever other equivalent of Ada, to buy this token without having to end user having to do the converting of that?
Speaker 3:
yeah, just kind of curious, as absolutely, that's all and that is exactly the kind of thinking that we want people to be engaging in, and in fact you know we're we're juggling Sony ball, so we haven't gotten to it yet, but the the plan is to build a very simple react component that you could embed on your page to say, you know, kind of like a buy with that allows any native token that has liquidity on Sunday, swap so, and you could swap it to Ada or swap it to you know, starch, for example, on on your end and kind of really build and embed those flows to like create that seamless user experience where a user has something of value and you have something of value and you just want to exchange at the current, at the current rate.
Speaker 3:
So that's exactly the kind of flows and even more complex flows that we want to be able to enable and allow other protocols to reach for, like that hammer in their toolbox. And so that's, you know, one great example. There's, there's hundreds more, and our white paper goes into some of those in pretty good detail hi, we like to know the exact numbers here on card, on over coffee.
Speaker 7:
So how many balls exactly are you juggling?
Speaker 3:
so many that I've lost track. So you know we've got at least five different product offerings that that we have. You know Sunday governance, sunday rewards, sunday swap yield, farming, our audits, design, consulting. So we're doing all of that. We're always in talks to, you know, build other things for other people, trying to find kind of that, that perfect consulting job. I like to say so.
Speaker 3:
There's this quote from a book that I like where somebody says you know, you plant nine seeds so that one may grow. And so we're always in talks with different people about what things that they would like to get built and most of them fall through. Most of them, you know, people can't afford a consulting cost or can't, you know, they're not ready to kind of commit to building it, or the idea fizzles out or has some big flaw, they can't get funding, blah, blah, blah. But every once in a while we strike on that one partnership or one collaboration that works really well. So you know, a great example of this is bookio reaching out to us and we're collaborating with them, offering them this Sunday rewards platform for their stake pool, and we're really excited to see that kind of blossom into more in the future. So kind of stay tuned for that.
Speaker 5:
And Joe, you know that he mentioned earlier that he burns candles on three ends, so he could just imagine about the balls he can juggle.
Speaker 7:
Ah the cross joint. Well, juggly, I like it.
Speaker 1:
Interoperability. That's most definitely on the menu, but we got Balaké with the last question and then we're gonna tie things up in a nice little booth.
Speaker 4:
Yeah, I had a random question for Pye, since he renamed himself after the love of his math, math, of mathematics. I was curious if you were familiar with the band tool and more so if you knew that they use mathematics and and sacred geometry to write some of their music.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, absolutely. I grew up in a household that listened to a lot of tool. My mom is a big tool fan and and so I know that they embed, like the Fubanachi sequence and the golden ratio and a bunch of their music. It's really.
Speaker 1:
I love it. That's awesome tools, a great band and this has been a great conversation. Man, so many amazing and interesting things that you're doing. Again, it's pinned up at the top. If you need to still read the v3 paper, I encourage everyone to do so. There are a number of deep dive conversations that pies than making the rounds on from learn Cardano to our friends over there at D app central. So many great insights and opportunities. My man, I am Honored to have shared this conversation with you today and curious to know if there's any sort of calls to action or things that we can look forward to as Sunday labs keeps cooking over the year 2024. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:
So One thing I will say you know we've said it a couple times go read the white paper, even if you feel intimidated by white papers and you're non-technical. I really focused on trying to make it not just a very dry technical specification. I really tried to make it approachable and kind of balance. You know there's gonna be. You know, if you're not technical, there's gonna be some details that go over your head. Don't worry about those. You know we go really deep into like one of the optimizations that got us to 37 or 35 orders, for example. But there's also some really great material that just explores the motivations behind the design and how things are gonna work and what benefits they're gonna provide to the ecosystem, and I think that should hopefully be totally approachable for even a non-technical audience. So if you don't, even if you don't normally read white papers, still encourage you to go and give it a shot. Would love to hear your feedback on that. And then you know, in terms of going forward in the year 2024, you know, keep an eye out. We're gonna be open sourcing the source code very soon. So if you are a, you know somebody building in Aiken. I think there's a lot that you can learn from those contracts. A Sunday B3 is partially funded from Catalyst, and so it was really important to us to give back to that community, to the community in that way, and so we'll be open sourcing them very soon. Also, you know, keep an eye out for all of these integrations that we are gonna be Encouraging others to build.
Speaker 3:
I think it's gonna be a really exciting year for Cardano, and what we're trying to do to encourage that and foster that kind of interconnected ecosystem Is, you know, I don't know which event it will be at yet, but we do plan to go to some of the big Cardano events and I'm in talks with them to host hackathons or workshops where, if you are kind of new to building on Cardano, come to the workshop and build something that uses Sunday swap right, some kind of feature, some kind of trading strategy, something like that.
Speaker 3:
When we do these workshops, I'll be there ready to, you know, answer any questions, help you, debug any issues. You'll really get that one-on-one time that you know you would never get from me in the normal day-to-day. So I think those will be really great opportunities if you are, you know, thinking about building in in the space but have been intimidated by it. What a great way to get introduced to building on Cardano. So I don't know exactly which events it'll be at, like I said, but keep an eye out for those. I think those will be really fun and really exciting.
Speaker 7:
Hi, I'm not trying to toot your horn, but this, this has been one of the greatest interviews of all time, of all time. I would put it up there with when Moses interview God.
Speaker 3:
But thank you. Thank you for the the kind words.
Speaker 1:
Thank you for the conversation, man. That is awesome. That was gonna be my last follow-up question is when can we look forward to hanging out with you again in person? And you just heard it here. Folks, if you want to get some cool Sunday swap Hackathon experiences, don't miss any of the live events, because the team will be there. My friend, it has been so awesome to pick your brain about all of these things. Congrats on your work, man, and big shout out to you. I know that, beyond even Sunday labs Itself, you yourself personally have offered to give advice or insights or some sort of you know review of people's things, like their developers, man. So you're a dedicated individual and people need to keep in mind that Sunday labs is bigger than Sunday swap.
Speaker 1:
You've got a lot of burners on in the kitchen, my man and you are cooking, so such a pleasure to have you. Thank you very much, my friend, and I hope that you will come back.
Speaker 9:
Wow, what an amazing show. Thank you for listening in and thanks, pie, for joining us. We can't wait to see everything that you guys are cooking in your kitchen come to fruition. We want to give a big shout out to our monthly podcast supporters. The wizard Tim discover. Cardano bookio Project camo Linda from steak pole ticker, malu twisted gears, me hon a niggas. Steak pole ticker one monster. Steak pole ticker MN str. Epoch sec and psychos. The cardano card game. We appreciate all your support. If you'd like to have your name or business mentioned in future podcasts or have your logo and links displayed in the description of our podcast, click the support button now.
