Laying the Foundations for Decentralized Governance in Cardano

Discover the future of governance in the crypto space as we sit down with Sheldon Hunt from Intersect MBO, who guides us through the evolving landscape of Cardano's governance. Sheldon, with a background as rich in blockchain as his passion for a perfectly brewed cup of tea, brings a wealth of knowledge and firsthand experience. From the crucial role of community input to the intricacies of governance processes, our conversation promises to leave you enlightened on how Cardano is shaping the democratic fabric of cryptocurrency.

Venture behind the scenes with us as we explore the structure of Intersect, drawing a clear line between the organization's committees and working groups. Here, you'll learn about the seven operational committees gearing up for democratic elections and how you too can contribute to the vibrant ecosystem of this initiative. This episode maps out how simple it is to get involved and the impact your voice can have within the realms of stablecoins and blockchain governance.

Finally, join us as we unpack the significance of the Buenos Aires Constitutional Convention for Cardano and how this event represents a tapestry of global efforts and community workshops aimed at drafting a constitution for the Cardano network. We delve into the open grants for Cardano Governance, revealing the shift towards decentralized grant reviews and drawing inspiration from the Catalyst project. Moreover, we touch upon the creative tension between agility and democracy in the quest to build a decentralized governance structure, a journey that calls for a symphony of diverse voices and steadfast collaboration.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome everybody to Cartoon Over Coffee. We got a great show for you today. And remember, you can join us live on X Spaces Monday through Friday, 9.30 am Eastern Standard Time, 2.30 pm UTC. Wow, we got a great show for you today. Joining us is Sheldon Hunt from the Intersect MBO. Do you know what Intersect is? Well, if you don't, you're about to find out.

Speaker 3: 0:26

Oh, snacks, hello, hello, hey everybody. How are you guys doing? Can you hear me? All right.

Speaker 4: 0:31

Yes, we can hear you. How are you doing today?

Speaker 3: 0:33

Thanks, for coming.

Speaker 5: 0:34

Thanks for stopping.

Speaker 3: 0:36

Oh, thank you for having me back. It's great to be back Because, yeah, my second time here, I think, is long overdue, so wonderful to be coming back around. I guess the first time we chatted it must have been almost like a year ago, or so I think it was a year ago.

Speaker 1: 0:53

Yeah, it was a while ago. At this point I don't know the last three years don't play together.

Speaker 4: 0:59

It must have been after Rare, probably using then we used a little bit of that momentum. We're like I think that's when we had you. It's probably not that long, sheldon.

Speaker 3: 1:10

Yeah, you're right, it goes by so fast. Yeah, I think you're right. Maybe it was actually close to maybe like nine months ago, because I think around the same time that I came on, we were talking about some of the workshops related to SIP 1694.

Speaker 4: 1:24

Oh, so that was more like a year ago, was it like after the workshops? I don't know. It's been a year. I have to say yes, and we're happy to have you on board this past year and all this governing stuff. I personally have had nothing but great experiences with you during the workshops and now you know just your involvement with Intersect. So I thank you for coming today and I just want to ask you are you having coffee? Did you have coffee today? What kind of coffee?

Speaker 3: 1:56

No coffee yet, not yet. So it's 1030 here. I'm actually back in Toronto, canada for the week for work, but I've been up since 4am. I'm more of a tea guy actually, so I hope you don't hold that against me.

Speaker 4: 2:10

I don't. We do tea here. It's been already like it's approved.

Speaker 1: 2:16

Well, I might have to get a ribbon once in a while.

Speaker 4: 2:20

So where are you? Are you? You move around so much I don't even know where you are anymore.

Speaker 3: 2:27

Yeah, yeah. So it's, one of the great benefits of working full-time in the Cardano ecosystem is that, man, you can throw a rock around the world and you'll hit a Cardano holder. Like there are people all over the place, all over the place, and so, yeah, it's been great just getting tossed around to various meetups, different conferences, lots of like, even like little workshops, right Like there's D-Rap workshops and we had a workshop in London not that long ago. So it's been a bit of a world-wind tour. To be honest, I'm getting a little bit tired. It'd be nice to have a home I have to live me out of a two-page fridge.

Speaker 4: 3:04

It gets tired some.

Speaker 3: 3:06

Yes, it does.

Speaker 4: 3:08

But I'm with you and traveling is not as comfortable as it used to be man, so it's like it really isn't From like that. The you know yeah, they let you, you know, plug in your phones and things, but that's not what I'm talking about. It's just not. It's just very tiresome and the seats and everything that you do, everything is like this rush and going and I don't know. I miss the old days of air travel.

Speaker 3: 3:34

Yes, yeah, and like on top of that, I think now living in like the post-pandemic world, all of these airlines are looking to recoup some of the losses they had had, and so they are really kind of like front charging a lot of people on different things and yeah, it's crazy, right, like traveling is so expensive.

Speaker 4: 3:54

It's a. It really has gotten bad. Just, I was just talking to Josie's here and you know they're doing the book IOCON in Texas in April and my gosh, like prices. I'm like how can it be so expensive for me to travel to Dallas? Right, it's such a hub it makes no sense and you know it is what it is. But it's not the only place it's been like that. And then I'll give you, like you know, one-way shots. It's like old transfers, it's pretty uncomfortable. But I digress. This is I want to take the much time that we can to unpack intersect, if that's cool with you. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Sheldon, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Speaker 3: 4:39

I want, for the people in the room who don't know who you are and want your involvement with intersect if yes, yes, so, yeah, happy to be back, and yeah, so, for those of you who don't know me, my name is Sheldon Hunt and, yeah, I work with intersect. It has been my baby. So, yeah, I've been in the crypto industry since 2014. Now it's been almost 10 years in and out.

Speaker 3: 5:07

My background is actually in governance, and so to combine governance and crypto was always the life goal and I've been privileged enough to make that happen. And so, actually, iog hired me onto the team a little more than a year ago to help set up the age of Voltaire, as we were talking about then. Intersect didn't even have a name, but we just referred to it as the proposed Cardano members-based organization. So I was, yeah, very privileged to help kind of get some of the structures in place last year right, running all the various workshops around SIP 1694 and having the community kind of like lead on some of the core components of what should be in Cardano governance, and so it's been kind of like the privilege of my career actually to be involved with all of these incredibly intelligent people and to do some really meaningful work.

Speaker 4: 5:58

I was just saying telling the people here how amazing it was to have you during the workshops last year and how incredibly helpful and, you know, insightful you are. So thank you for all the work.

Speaker 3: 6:15

Thank you, thank you. It would be nothing without all of you and all your contributions. So huge thank you to yeah, to like yourself, actually like all the people who were putting in the work and hosting the workshops, like you guys are really the base. You're the foundation of the entire ecosystem.

Speaker 4: 6:36

We are and talk about that. How does that translate into intersect? What is intersect for those who are not familiar and what is a intersect task to do?

Speaker 3: 6:49

Yes. So it's a very good question and I think, like this year, it's all going to be around like education. I think I need to be really improving upon that. So yeah, so exactly that kind of saying the stage.

Speaker 3: 7:01

So intersect, as I mentioned before, is the Cardano members based organization. It's not going to be the only one, but it's just kind of like the first one that we've got going on right now and it was set up, like we were saying several months ago, to be the new repository, the new hub for all future Cardano governance and actually even main net development. So over the last few weeks we've actually migrated all of the repos over from IOG to intersects. We've set up all of these various working groups and committees to house a lot of the different projects and products, even and it's going to be the new home where it is the new home for all the planning around future hard forks. And then, on top of that, there's all of the discussions around governance. So governance, toolings of the plans in place for democratic elections that we've got planned for later this year. So there's enormous amounts of work being done internally just on that side, which is actually pretty crazy, pretty advanced.

Speaker 3: 7:59

And then, lastly, a big part of intersect is, like I was mentioning, like the community side of things, the member side of things. So we're looking to maybe fill some gaps in the ecosystem by providing community with opportunities for grants as well as to get organized, say, around like commercialization, marketing, promotion, helping to get projects, maybe even to personally attend events around the world. So there's a whole lot of different things and it's really like grassroots led, so members can join intersects for free right now online on the website.

Speaker 4: 8:39

That's why I was going to ask you anybody can sign up.

Speaker 3: 8:42

Yeah, anybody can sign up. Anybody can sign up.

Speaker 4: 8:44

So totally Can we dive a little bit into that, like we said, no, that right now is free, but eventually there will be a fee to participate. And also there is the concept of merit, which we don't really know what that looks like yet.

Speaker 3: 9:04

Yes, correct. So this is something we've actually on the merit side of things, it's a really hard thing trying to measure, so that's still very much in the beta testing phase, like how do we decipher who's put enough merit to actually get honorary membership? But speaking just on the easier side of things of paid membership, we wanted to this year focus on really just like legitimacy and community growth and not have it be exuberantly expensive or be off-putting. So the deployment of paid membership is going to be rolled out over that several months. It's not going to be a hard stop or anything like that.

Speaker 3: 9:46

The plan that we had had last year was that any individual member can join for 100 data and then organizations can join for 1000 data. If you want to be involved in a working group, you don't even need to be a member. I think Charles has talked about it before being like you just need to like one Ada, just to indicate that you've got some skin in the game. But we don't want to be prohibiting people from contributing. So that's just part of the merit side of things.

Speaker 4: 10:15

You just mentioned the working groups, so why don't we just go a little bit over the formal bodies of Intersect? We have the committees and we have the working groups. Can you just go a little bit over both? Who are in this committee. Who can participate in them? How can you become part of a working group? Start your own working group, both of those.

Speaker 3: 10:39

Yes, of course. So I'll first start off with committees. Committees we've imagined as being a little bit more selective, like they're a bit more permanent in their features and they're still being rolled out now. So we've got seven committees that are operational or in the process of being fully operational. One of the first ones that I'd help set up was the membership and community committee, so the MCC.

Speaker 3: 11:05

There's a civics committee We've got right now in development, the technical steering committee, and so there's a lot of these different committees that have really broad mandates and to help kind of establish and structure like future development of the main net. And then underneath all of these various committees because the committee is sorry, I should probably go on a little more detail on these committees so the committees are fairly selective as well. So we're going to have elections for these positions later this year as well, and there I imagine could be very competitive elections, and so it'll be entirely democratic. We'll have like limits on how many people can be on the committees. We'll have various charters, terms of reference and just codes of conduct. And then it was mentioned before these working groups will then report into the committees.

Speaker 4: 12:00

Can I like, before we jump into working groups, can I ask you something real quick? So you said that we have seven right now, which, by the way, the knowledge base still says five. So maybe you want to like put a little note on that.

Speaker 3: 12:12

Yeah, we've got two more in the works right now. Cool.

Speaker 4: 12:15

And that's I was going to ask about. How do they come out, because there's other committees like working on this. Do you realize you need a new committee to take care of something in particular, or is this already in the books? Like you know how many committees are going to have ahead of time?

Speaker 3: 12:34

Well. So there is like some flexibility where if we know we need something, we will then look to get it approved from like the community and like in the board going forward. Right now we don't have all of the structures in place to have like on chain votes as of today, but we will be doing that soon. So it means that, yeah, right now it's kind of a combination of like grassroots efforts, volunteering, and then the interim board.

Speaker 4: 12:57

So seven is not the magic number. We might see more committees pop up. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 3: 13:03

I'm certain that we will. What is likely going to happen is we'll probably have some working groups that are doing such important work that they will then be essentially elevated to be committed.

Speaker 4: 13:14

That's what I was going to ask you. Okay, so that's a good site, way into working groups. So what are working groups?

Speaker 3: 13:20

Yes, so yeah. So working groups, as I mentioned before, don't require people to be members of intersect. Anybody can you know, join a working group and get them kicked off. You could start one on your own. You could do it like today you can just go and actually you just shoot me a message and I'd be happy to take you through the process.

Speaker 4: 13:39

But yeah, the forum for working groups has shut down. Is there a reason for that?

Speaker 3: 13:44

Well, it should be still live. Actually, I was just sharing that with somebody earlier.

Speaker 4: 13:50

I wanted to share the post and I noticed that it was like like it says, I'm sorry, we're not taking any.

Speaker 3: 13:59

Okay, here let me check. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 14:03

So I got a series of links that I want to share with people. Make sure they, you know they can follow all this stuff. But yeah, but okay. So working groups Anybody can start their own working group. Committees can also decide they need a working group to help them figure some stuff a little deeper. Right To dig into things.

Speaker 3: 14:24

So there might be, for example, I'm part of.

Speaker 4: 14:26

I'm part of the parameters working group, so we work with a parameters committee.

Speaker 3: 14:33

Yeah, yeah, and I think that was tasked Like.

Speaker 4: 14:36

It was. Like you know, they grab Adam and said start this working group. We need to look into the parameters and get the community and all that stuff.

Speaker 3: 14:46

Yeah, yeah, so the parameter committee was actually one of the first like working groups or committees, and so they're one of like the kind of the first OGs to kind of lead the charge and kind of seeing what will work and what doesn't work, as a prototype and super important.

Speaker 3: 15:00

So thank you for your contribution there. But yeah, so the working groups are a little bit more, I guess you could say like flexible in terms of like their structuring. And so we've got some working groups that are going to be set up for like a temporary purpose. Right, it might be a working group only to look at, say, running the Buenos Aires convention later this year. So it will be maybe a group of 10 or 20 people to focus on an event. As soon as the event is done they'll wrap up. And then there'll be other working groups that'll be permanent, right, and long lasting. So, for example, there is a stable coin group. I don't think we're ever going to need to get rid of a stable coin working group, so that's been established on the Intersect Discord and anybody can join that and kind of like lead the discussion, because there's a lot to discuss in that particular topic. So yeah.

Speaker 3: 15:55

So when you say anybody right now.

Speaker 4: 15:57

If anybody goes to intersectboorg and you sign up for Intersect, does anybody? How's that process? Anybody can sign up. Where's the vet? Is there any vetting? What happens there?

Speaker 3: 16:10

So right now there isn't really much in the way of vetting. You can just kind of go and sign up on the website, Like it was mentioned before. It's just free. So you sign up for free, you join, you're now a member of Intersect and part of the kind of the information package that you get back after signing up includes a link to the Intersect Discord and then, once you're in the Intersect Discord, you'll see I think it's around like the middle of the pack there's a bunch of different working groups that are listed and there's a lot more coming. So I think we've got maybe six or seven that are listed currently on the Discord and I think we've got almost six or seven more coming in the next week, week or two. So lots more important topics being deployed.

Speaker 4: 16:57

So that's there you have it. Like intersectmboorg, I keep repeating that every day, so I know that I missed. I was too busy to join the last town hall, which happened yesterday. Fortunately I couldn't make it, but are those reports or what happens in that and does that become public, or do you have to be a member to get information of what is talked about during this town halls?

Speaker 3: 17:28

Well, so it's a good question. So some of these things we're still trying to decide on what should be like gated behind membership, because we want to obviously incentivize people to be members of Intersect, and so I think, as of today, it's mostly free and available to anybody who's signed up as a member, and we'll have obviously some updates on the intersects, like Twitter accounts, x account, as well as just like the more general newsletter as well.

Speaker 4: 17:56

Yeah, you have that weekly, the Vilemet report that comes out now, right, yeah, correct. So that's kind of like the public iteration of things, like it's kind of like the rendering of what happens in there in-house thing.

Speaker 3: 18:13

Okay got it Exactly that, and so that's the exact kind of split. We want to have the newsletter be publicly available for anybody who wants to sign up for the newsletter. It's kind of going up to everyone in the wild, whereas we want to ideally have a bit more like a membership gated experience to be able to kind of collaborate collectively as like a member of the wider intersects of community, to kind of share your thoughts and ideas and get some inside takes on. What is next for Cardano development?

Speaker 4: 18:45

Sweet. I just I'm trying to pin up some things here at the top. I wanted to talk to you about the roadmap. By the way, I just pinned up at the top the link you got to check it out because the roadmap is so beautiful it really is, and make sure you toggle between the two options because they're just like very soothing and I love the style and it's a little bit of updating, I think, on some things, but it's beautiful. I love the roadmap. So what's in the roadmap right now? I know that there's some exciting things going for the year that you can see in there, including the Argentina Buenos Aires Constitutional Convention.

Speaker 3: 19:25

Right, yes, yes. Well, thank you for the kind words about the layout. I got to give my colleagues credit. So Tim has been working really hard on this and many others internally, so it's great that it's appreciated. Pretty looking graphic school a long way, but yeah. But as for like the content, yeah, like mentioning Buenos Aires, there's probably going to be one of the most important events in the calendar for, I think, all of Cardano, certainly this year. So that is really kind of like the final capstone on the whole governance journey. I'm sure there's going to be further iterations of the Cardano Constitution thereafter, but it's going to be a nice cumulative event for all of the workshops they're going to be launched very soon, actually around the world. So for all of those of you who were involved in the workshops last year around 1694, we're going to be doing much the same, but now for the Cardano Constitution and I imagine it's probably going to be maybe even more lively of discussions and debates on this particular topic.

Speaker 4: 20:28

Yeah, I mean I just went to a workshop for an Indianapolis for D-Raps and I mean that's going to be also doing the rounds on web version so we can get more people to participate.

Speaker 4: 20:39

So stay tuned for that, guys, when the D-Rap workshop becomes available for talk about in this particular workshop, where we're talking about code of conduct, which I think is very important to have the community understand and also bring in, pitch into the conversation, while we're still in development of this social contract per se right, because that's what it is, it's a social contract that we're building, so I'm excited about that and I know there's just a lot of more workshops that are coming back.

Speaker 4: 21:16

I was going to say you have some grants and I want to talk about this grants because I want people to understand what they are, how they work, who can sign up for those, and right now you have two open ones. So I want to make sure that we kind of like dive a little bit into those, because they're open and there's some upcoming ones that look exciting as well. But you have the open category for Cardano Governance and you have a committee initiative participation one and then open category. I was diving deep into it and I love how all the workshops that we did last year, all this input of the tooling that we needed for minimal, viable governance were taken into account. And then you guys kind of like put a list together of the most important topics for people to get an idea of what tools are needed right, what the community wants.

Speaker 3: 22:15

Yeah, exactly that, exactly.

Speaker 4: 22:17

You are giving out grants for people to make this happen. You're asking for people to come and contribute and make what the people want happen. There are grants available for that, correct?

Speaker 3: 22:31

Yes, there are grants available for that. Because Intersect is still in its first year and, to be honest with you, we have a very limited budget. We don't have a whole lot to give up, but we're going to give everything we've got. Huge focus is on the governance tooling. It's all governance this year. We want to empower the community to build the tools that are most important to them for getting Cardano adoption and governance and democracy brought up to the next higher level.

Speaker 3: 23:02

Yeah, we're actually now also deploying some new features to the whole grant process, because we had so many applications for the education category, we realized we can't manage it internally. We can't actually have a group of I guess it was like six people looking over all of the various or each individual grant proposal was being reviewed by six people internally. It was just too much work and it's also not very decentralized or open. So we're going to be turning over all of this to the community as well and having it be done through working groups where we will be actually paying participants and reviewers. It's actually very similar to Catalyst.

Speaker 4: 23:44

As I was going to say. I mean, catalyst already has developed for trial and error. Man, you got to use some of that stuff Because we've worked so hard to build something that right now I consider to be very. I mean, I get excited, I'm participated, I'm still a milestone reviewer and I think the system that we have in place makes me feel like, okay, this is, there's accountability, we are the community, we're part of this. There's definitely that say so at the end, right, but it's up to you.

Speaker 4: 24:16

Know, we are vetting, we're going, we're educating the community, making sure that this project's become reality and not just distribute money like that. And we're going to be managing treasuries Now to a deeper level, because, you know, this is like now, the governance actions and withdrawals, and now we're talking about who's going to fund Catalyst, right, so yeah, it's deep. So definitely Catalyst has something to start with. So yeah, I hear you, it's painful, that's a lot of and when you know, you mentioned that Sheldon, and that's how I think about like D reps and governance actions and all these governance actions coming in and who's going to be reviewing all of that and what's the incentive behind it. So those are like conundrums that we have to solve, and that's why it's so important to have a lot of people involved in bringing in their perspectives to the table.

Speaker 3: 25:09

Yes, absolutely. I think we've been like quite privileged in that we've had, like now, a few years of trial and error with Catalyst to kind of like figure out what works and what doesn't and of course it's not perfect and it's always evolving but we've got so much to work off of, we've got so much of a preexisting output and research and thoughts and lots of things that we can bring over and add and plug into Intersect, and it's quite exciting. So we were initially trying to kind of start off with some of these grants being a little more limited, as it pertains to like some things would say like plugins for the wallets and voting and all of this, but now we've realized that we've got to just open it all up and got to be really pulling some of the pages from Catalyst, and so we'll be doing that over the next couple of weeks and months.

Speaker 4: 26:00

So you have your own.

Speaker 3: 26:01

It's on committee handling this, or yes, yes, so there'll be a grants committee that will be made up of the reviewers and they will be going through the process similar to Catalyst, and reviewing all of the various grant proposals and seeing how it kind of fits, and we'll be basically using the exact same criteria Is it like, kind of like, is it a good fit, like a value for money? The same things that Catalyst has been using. So we'll be doing much that.

Speaker 4: 26:32

That's great. I don't know if you have time for a couple of questions. If anybody has a question, come up and ask a question. I just wanted to make sure that we kind of like touched on some of these things that I consider to be important to bring out and interesting, you know, because we talk governance, governance, governance, and it doesn't really give a whole, you know, context to what we're talking about here. It's so much going on in there.

Speaker 3: 26:59

Yeah, no, so absolutely open to questions, because I know this can get a little bit complicated. We do have a bit of an issue with a word salad and if you weren't around at the very beginning of some of these conversations, you can sometimes lose the plot line a few weeks or a few months later. So it's totally understandable. We need to be doing a better job with educating people and bringing them up to speed on the latest, and so, yeah, happy to keep questions.

Speaker 4: 27:24

Even when you're involved, it gets very unwell Because it's so much going on at the same time. You know it's just parallel, like up and down and everything kind of connects. So it's very easy to feel overwhelmed. But if you start with a little bit here, a little bit there and just see what gets your attention, it reminds me of but the thing of course we didn't have such a big infrastructure when catalyst started.

Speaker 4: 27:49

But I remember when catalyst started I was like big time just like sidelines, like lurking. You know I'm just watching everything from above. You know I would participate and as a listener and things, but I wasn't like doing stuff because it was so much. And once I started getting comfortable with, with concepts, then I started participating more and more and I was like this is the same right now, right, yes, being in the conversation, listening to the, you know if you sign up for Intersect, I mean some of those things with an Intersect right now are open while you're in it, but then some other things within Intersect as you get deeper into things. There's NDAs involved, so, but so it's just different. It can get complicated but it could also be just kind of more open, right? So there's just like for everyone. You don't have to get so deep into it and get go in your own pace.

Speaker 3: 28:45

Yeah, exactly, we want to have this kind of being kind of like build your own adventure, really, like your own kind of experience with Cardano. You can be as involved or as uninvolved as you would like and drop in and out and, yeah, to your point, like there are some things that are quite technically intense and that are very sensitive and, yeah, they might require NDAs just to kind of get into some of the nitty-gritty details and hope the community understands that. But then on the flip side, you can just kind of follow along with, like the latest as it relates to just some of the updates, right With the hard forks coming, and just kind of stay abreast of that and then just be prepared to delegate your vote and maybe send your ad to a D rep or become a D rep yourself in a few months. Well, obviously we can do it right now in Sanctuannette today, but doing the real thing in several weeks or a few months, so the Gov tool is back up and that's what people can use to participate in Sanctuannette.

Speaker 4: 29:47

Sanctuannette is where we're playing around with this governance. It's like our playground where we're putting to test a lot of these things that get talked about in this committees and this parameters and the whole dynamic that we're going to be getting into, as it's a ton of practice right, and anybody can join Sanctuannette.

Speaker 2: 30:13

Yeah, correct.

Speaker 4: 30:13

Now, why is it only Uroi that you can use? I couldn't find any other wallet that I can connect to. Is it only Uroi right now? Is that the plan?

Speaker 3: 30:23

Well, I think I can't speak to the latest plans and where we're at with the wallets, but the plan was always to have all of the wallets be plugged in to both Sanctuannette and later on, the whole full deployment of Voltaire and Sibsikin94. But yeah, we had, I think, some early kind of just like structural constraints by having so many wallets in the ecosystem and trying to get them all plugged in. So I think there should be more than just Uroi today, I think, maybe like Laysanami as well, but there might be other ones, I'm not super aware of the situation.

Speaker 4: 31:02

Well, the tool just came back up, so maybe that was the only one they had at the moment.

Speaker 4: 31:06

Maybe they're coming up with those yeah maybe they're working on connecting because the GOV tool was down for a bit since the update, I guess and they probably just wanted to make sure it went live, but we do have. Okay, so I'm going to the knowledge base. Okay, so that is a good place to go and I'm going to make sure I get that in here and pin it up at the top, because the knowledge base you can get a lot of this concept, you can follow that and that's a great place to look into. So if you were to invite somebody today here in this room to participate in Intersect, how would you tell them?

Speaker 3: 31:55

What would?

Speaker 4: 31:55

I tell them.

Speaker 3: 31:57

Well, like I was saying, I don't want to force anybody to get involved in something they don't want to be involved in. It really is kind of like a build your own adventure with Intersect. You can kind of selectively tease out the things that are of most interest to you and you think are the most important to the future of Cardano and you can just run with it. So if you believe we need to have USDC or USDT on Cardano, we've got a stablecoin group you can join for that. You want to be doing more around, say like NFT events, we've got working group coming together for that. If you're super passionate about on chain governance and democracy, play around with Sanctenet and get involved as a D-rep. It's just like it is quite expansive and I wouldn't expect anyone to do all of it. It's basically impossible. I can tell you from working on the insight it's impossible to take it all in and to be doing all of these things at the same time. So just take the bit that you are passionate about that you think is going to be important for the future of Cardano and you make it yours and you plug in with others who are like-minded and you make it work. We hope in the future there'll be other member-based organizations, there'll be many more committees, many more working groups. When we think ahead to like a full deployment of the Chang Hard Fork and then the Secondary Hard Fork that kind of fully launches the Age of Voltaire, when we can finally make Treasury actions, that's going to be a whole new world. So I imagine there's going to be tons of new requests for Treasury actions and we can start to throw the community's money around, kind of in a rational and responsible way, of course, to really unlock all of the potential of Cardano.

Speaker 3: 33:49

So I'm excited. There's lots of commercial adoption. There's lots of grassroots auction events. We've got, obviously, the Constitution that's going to be drafted later this year. So if you are maybe you've always dreamed about drafting a Constitution for a digital nation, you can do that. A lot of the language that we've been kind of seeing pop up more and more is that we're kind of building a superstructure of like a 21st century digital nation, right Like a network state. It's a little bit kind of academic and a little bit kooky, but I think there's actually quite a bit of truth to it. So, yeah, I know that's maybe why you're calling it that.

Speaker 4: 34:30

So what is the social community Like the most like? If you were like to get community to just stay in touch with the more social or community side of things, what do you think is a good place to start? Because I feel like a lot of people on Twitter, they're just into social, right yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:54

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 34:54

Yeah. So I will say well, we like the you know the average social media person that will hang out in spaces. Do you think it's a good committee to follow up on or working group that exists today? Yeah, Well.

Speaker 3: 35:15

so actually I've got to give like a shout out to Lloyd. I don't think he's in the call today, but so I'll be actually having a chat with him. I think about like 30, 40 minutes today. But so he's done a lot of work in setting up essentially like a marketing kind of like a working group, and for a lot of people who are kind of like social and they care about like promoting Cardano and talking about Cardano and kind of just being on like the nice kind of social, fluffy end of things, that's a great place to be kind of like plugging into. And so I imagine that is where a lot of what's his working group on?

Speaker 4: 35:47

I love Lloyd. He's amazing.

Speaker 3: 35:50

He is awesome so we're going to be kind of working group for that. So it's kind of the I believe he's referred to it technically as like the marketing standards working group, but we're going to go and do quite a bit with that. So I know Lloyd's going to be doing, I think, like future podcasts and we'll be trying to like empower others to kind of put forward grants to do more like social projects and so, yeah, it'll be quite the nexus of all things kind of public facing. I guess you could say.

Speaker 4: 36:27

Well, this has been great. Sheldon, I thank you so much for coming and answering all those questions. I mean I could be here and asking questions after questions. I mean I think what you have you hear like every so often just to give an update, honestly, because there's so much to unpack and so it moves so fast. It's what I'm trying to say Just move so fast.

Speaker 3: 36:53

It really, really does. It's one of those things you blink and you kind of miss it and, like I was saying, even for myself internally, like there's things that I like miss out on and I've got to be constantly kind of going back and asking people like what's the latest here and there? Sometimes I only also just learn about something as we see it on the newsletter, like oh man, I missed that because just so much going on.

Speaker 4: 37:13

But that's how I feel, and I'm like Cardano 24 seven myself, and I just missed out on so much. I can't even believe it. So it's a take it easy Just find your spot, find what you like and ask around hey, what's going on here that aligns with what I'm into, and you'll find a place, believe me.

Speaker 2: 37:38

So I actually had a question for Sheldon kind of along those lines. So, because everything moves so fast here and what we're building out is like a bureaucratic structure, I guess what is the speed like we plan on being able to address issues with, like, say, something major came up? Like how fast do you think the community is supposed to be able to handle this sort of shit? You know, like get, get a proposal put in place or like resolve whatever issues, because you know, bureaucracy always takes time and that's kind of a question I didn't really hear anything about.

Speaker 3: 38:13

Yes, well, it's a very good point, right, like trying to strike the right balance on bureaucracy is a really hard thing to do. I know we can often like throw the word bureaucracy around like it's a bad thing, but also it's kind of like a necessary structure to get shit done, also like to kind of like just to move the needle and get things across the line. So yeah, right now we are trying to strike the right balance and it is hard, it's always going to be hard and I think this is going to be a permanent like problem we're going to be facing as a community doing on-chain governance. Long into the future there will be, I think, issues that pop up that will require major ecosystem buy-in and democratic support behind, and it might require us to rush through a vote. I hope it doesn't come to that, but we've got to be mentally prepared for it.

Speaker 3: 39:04

But as of today, because we set up these kind of bureaucratic functions like these working groups and the committees, that they're tailored fit to handle a specific task and the hope is that we can kind of have people self-select to be involved in these particular well, you could call them bureaucratic functions, but the committees are working groups because they have some skin in the game, they understand it, they've been elected into these positions and that they can hopefully make decisions pretty quickly. And then more larger questions and more larger decisions that have more prominent impacts across the ecosystem. The committee might make a suggestion, but we're going to need to have everybody sign off on that, so we'll be having more prominent elections around all of these particular topics in the next couple of months. So, yeah, there's no really easy solution for, like, an over bureaucratic problem or but that's precisely what's happening right now, what the conversations are about right now.

Speaker 4: 40:08

All the conversations are around that, around how do we try to set something, and that's what all these working groups and committees, and it's just like a mixture. My calendar is always like now I have a Yesterday, we were meeting with the parameters committee. Tomorrow we're meeting with the civics committee and it's all this like exchanging of ideas from place to place. We're just trying to solve these things like questions like the one you just had, and that's why it's so important to have more people come in to intersect, to ask these questions, because this is how we address them. We have to. Just, we got to get smarter as a crowd by bringing in the more diversity, as much diversity as possible, so we can take as much as we can into account for this minimal, viable governance. So we feel like we're building a fair system.

Speaker 2: 41:03

I'm also concerned about it being just not unwieldy. You know what I mean. Like not a real heavy, slow, bureaucratic process, because how fast everything in Web 3 tends to move and just the internet age in general. I mean man, like if we're going to be stuck arguing about issues for a year or two at a time, we're going to be left behind, is what I'm concerned about. I get the decentralization thing. That's awesome, but we have to have some sort of measure in place. I'm thinking at least, where there are at least people who are nominated or something selected to make these emergency votes or have some sort of emergency power in the event that there was something that needed action immediately.

Speaker 4: 41:45

Those are parameters, right? That's precisely what those things are being set, those little settings of what happens, of this. And then how do we counter that? And it's game. It's like setting up a play. What do you have to say about that, sheldon?

Speaker 3: 42:05

Yeah, no, I completely agree with you, jenny, like it is something we're working through right now and, to your point, like we need to be quite agile here. We don't want to be left behind, we don't want to be stuck in like, yeah, a bureaucratic loop, and so we're doing all of these really quite interesting kind of trials right now. We're demoing all the things that could work, everything that could go wrong. There's a lot of like battle testing. We're trying to break the whole thing in SonshoNet all the time, trying to set up little dictatorships that go nowhere.

Speaker 3: 42:37

We imagine if we could try to set up a scenario where we just drain the treasury and give everybody Lambos, and so we're doing like kind of the extreme ends of both sides of this and just kind of seeing what works and what doesn't. There'll always be an element that we can't control, and that's just the human component of this, and I've got nothing. There's no kind of concern on my part for that. I think this is just what we're doing. We're going to try and build a better system, of course, but humans will be humans, and so, yeah, we'll set these parameters the best we can to move as quickly as we can in the best kind of decentralized, democratic way we can.

Speaker 4: 43:15

And not only I mean you can join Intersect and all that, but you could also just join Sancho and vote on things and get some test data to vote on things and find a D-REP. There are some D-REPs who are in the community. They're signed up also, they're signed up as D-REPs in Sancho and you can tell them hey, why don't we start this governance action and then just participate like that, have fun with it? There's just ways to play with it that are educational and testing the system. Like Sheldon just said, Once you see people draining the treasury so we can patch holes, make sure that we watch our backs in all angles, so we need people playing with the stuff.

Speaker 2: 44:05

Well, I can think of some stuff if you want to test some shit. So OK, yeah, I keep that in mind, but I appreciate the answer. Sheldon, that was pretty concise, yeah, yeah, thank you, jenny, I'm going to drop back down.

Speaker 4: 44:17

Woo-hoo, and I see Adam. Adam, thank you so much for all the work you do. He's like in everything governance. So yeah, great guy, good guy, good friend.

Speaker 1: 44:33

Thanks, Sheldon, for coming by. I appreciate your time.

Speaker 3: 44:37

My pleasure. Thank you for having me back and, yeah, I'd be happy to do this more regularly. As we were saying, there's just so much going on. We should probably try to do this every two or three months, I think. At this point, yeah, definitely Because, yeah, I'll need all of your assistance.

Speaker 1: 44:55

You said it Now I'm going to keep you to it.

Speaker 3: 44:57

Oh well, let's do it, let's make it happen, let's make it happen.

Speaker 4: 45:01

Yeah, just keep it. You know, just a conversation going, so it's not all in one day and just pack it all. Just, we have to have this conversation regularly. So it just makes it easier when we can just balance this topics of each other here in the public. What's up, adam? Thanks for coming out, not much.

Speaker 5: 45:21

Yeah, no, great to be here. I was actually in an intersex committee meeting so I couldn't join until now.

Speaker 4: 45:27

That's how it works.

Speaker 1: 45:29

Well, I see where we rank. Miss you, buddy.

Speaker 4: 45:38

Mr Comedie, he's in every, he's in everything. He's not like every committee.

Speaker 1: 45:44

I'm like he's going to be my derep at some point probably.

Speaker 5: 45:48

We'll see. I think I'd be more comfortable being part of a panel than running on my own. But yeah, what happened with?

Speaker 4: 45:55

Indy You're going to delegate to the Indy derep.

Speaker 1: 46:03

I don't know. I would like to see a dial Like. The dial thing that came out of the workshop is really interesting to me.

Speaker 4: 46:15

Yeah, I think that's exciting. Adam, you want to talk a little bit just about what you guys did with the multi-sig recently.

Speaker 5: 46:23

Sure. So that was definitely just a proof of concept. We've been waiting for the ability to do this because we know that with Plutus v3, it's going to be possible to have a script address serve as a derep. So as soon as the right node went online, I got Mike Hornin and Riley together in a chat and I basically said, hey, let's build this. And so Riley wrote the multi-sig code for us. So we had a native script that was a two of three multi-sig for having just our three wallets control the derep script vote.

Speaker 5: 47:02

And then we had, and then Mike went ahead and built the transaction and submitted it to the Sonchonet chain and we all set it up so that we would be re-registering our derep IDs at the same time as when that went online. And then we just sat down on a Wednesday night I think and got to Discord together and pushed it on chain and voila, it worked. We had a script on chain. We could search for it on Sonchonet and be able to delegate to it. So that was just a really fun proof of work and shows what Cardano's going to be able to do, that other systems can only dream of having a truly representative system where the flexibility of people to interact directly with the system on the layer one.

Speaker 3: 47:55

It's huge, super exciting. I'm going to actually sorry to jump in, but I've got to drop guys.

Speaker 4: 48:03

Yeah, go for it, sheldon. Thank you so much for coming, oh, thanks for having me. I've got to go and talk with Lloyd now, actually, so Say hi to Lloyd, and we'll have him over too to talk about his committee, so I'll reach out to him. Thank you so much, sheldon, and we'll see you soon.

Speaker 3: 48:17

Thank you and thank you everybody for joining in Great to chat with you all. You guys take care, we'll talk to you again soon.

Speaker 1: 48:23

Thanks everyone for listening to Cardano over coffee and thanks, sheldon for joining us. We look forward to more updates in the near future. We want to give a big shout out to our monthly podcast supporters the Wizard, tim, discover, cardano, bookio Project, camo, linda from StakepoolTicker, m-a-l-u. Twisted Gears, meehan, enigma, stakepoolticker1, monster, stakepoolticker M-N. Str, epochsec and Psycho's the Cardano card game. We appreciate all your support. If you'd like to have your name or business mentioned in future podcasts or have your logo and links displayed in the description of our podcast, click the Support button now.