Bridging the gap between children's fear and understanding of medical procedures is no small task. That's where our guest, Kim Flood, a child life specialist from Columbus, Ohio, steps in. Kim has been an invaluable beacon of hope in Emily's journey, helping Charlotte find confidence and coping skills that work for her. She transforms the cold, sterile hospital environment into a safe space where honesty, play, and resilience take center stage. Listen in as we share our personal experiences and discuss the transformative power of child life specialists in pediatric care.
Navigating the medical world can be daunting for both children and parents alike. From coping with pain and traumatic procedures to advocating for a child's needs, the challenges can be overwhelming. But Kim, armed with years of experience in multiple departments such as organ transplant floors and burn units , shows us the importance of fostering emotional well-being and maintaining a positive association with the medical environment. In our candid conversation, we explore the value of psychosocial support, the necessity and power of a coping plan, and the significance of letting children witness healthy expressions of emotions.
Finishing off our discussion, we touch upon the magic of celebrating small victories and the significance of community and support in parenting. We delve into the impact of Kim's private practice, Bridge to Bravery, designed to navigate children and families through medical needs in their own home. Our conversation underscores the importance of community and the power of resilience in the face of adversity. This podcast is more than just a storytelling platform; it's a resource filled with practical advice, shared experiences, and hope.
About Kim Flood: Kim Flood is a Certified Child Life Specialist. She has her MS in child development with a child life specialization. Kim is passionate about her work with children and teenagers. She is a mom of 3 kids. Since becoming a parent she has truly valued her child life skills when it comes to preparing kids for challenges in life. She would be honored to work with your family to help facilitate positive coping skills. Once certain conversational skills are mastered, she is certain your family will no longer need her expertise as you’ll have the skills to manage it on your own.
Bridge to Bravery: Bridge to Bravery offers child life services through home visiting, phone consults, and also video consulting.
Bridge to Bravery Blog
Click here to learn more about Child Life Specialists from Association of Child Life Professionals.
Get your copy of She is Charlotte: A Mother’s Physical, Emotional, and Spiritual Journey with Her Child with Medical Complexities by Emily K Whiting on Amazon
To get more personal support, connect with us directly at: CharlottesHopeFoundation.org
Email: Contact@CharlottesHopeFoundation.org
Facebook: Charlotte's Hope Foundation
Instagram: CharlottesHopeFoundationInc
Bridging the gap between children's fear and understanding of medical procedures is no small task. That's where our guest, Kim Flood, a child life specialist from Columbus, Ohio, steps in. Kim has been an invaluable beacon of hope in Emily's journey, helping Charlotte find confidence and coping skills that work for her. She transforms the cold, sterile hospital environment into a safe space where honesty, play, and resilience take center stage. Listen in as we share our personal experiences and discuss the transformative power of child life specialists in pediatric care.
Navigating the medical world can be daunting for both children and parents alike. From coping with pain and traumatic procedures to advocating for a child's needs, the challenges can be overwhelming. But Kim, armed with years of experience in multiple departments such as organ transplant floors and burn units , shows us the importance of fostering emotional well-being and maintaining a positive association with the medical environment. In our candid conversation, we explore the value of psychosocial support, the necessity and power of a coping plan, and the significance of letting children witness healthy expressions of emotions.
Finishing off our discussion, we touch upon the magic of celebrating small victories and the significance of community and support in parenting. We delve into the impact of Kim's private practice, Bridge to Bravery, designed to navigate children and families through medical needs in their own home. Our conversation underscores the importance of community and the power of resilience in the face of adversity. This podcast is more than just a storytelling platform; it's a resource filled with practical advice, shared experiences, and hope.
About Kim Flood: Kim Flood is a Certified Child Life Specialist. She has her MS in child development with a child life specialization. Kim is passionate about her work with children and teenagers. She is a mom of 3 kids. Since becoming a parent she has truly valued her child life skills when it comes to preparing kids for challenges in life. She would be honored to work with your family to help facilitate positive coping skills. Once certain conversational skills are mastered, she is certain your family will no longer need her expertise as you’ll have the skills to manage it on your own.
Bridge to Bravery: Bridge to Bravery offers child life services through home visiting, phone consults, and also video consulting.
Bridge to Bravery Blog
Click here to learn more about Child Life Specialists from Association of Child Life Professionals.
Get your copy of She is Charlotte: A Mother’s Physical, Emotional, and Spiritual Journey with Her Child with Medical Complexities by Emily K Whiting on Amazon
To get more personal support, connect with us directly at: CharlottesHopeFoundation.org
Email: Contact@CharlottesHopeFoundation.org
Facebook: Charlotte's Hope Foundation
Instagram: CharlottesHopeFoundationInc
Whether you've just been blindsided by your child's diagnosis or you've been in the trenches of their complex medical needs for a while, empowered by hope, is here for you. Though we wish you didn't know this heartache, we're so glad you found us Together. We can walk this journey in hope.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the empowered by hope podcast. I'm so excited to we say that every single time, don't we? I got to come up with a better intro but seriously, every time I'm so excited because the content has been really well thought through and the conversation is so dynamic and just gets so excited about each episode. Today we're recording. I'm Emily. We're here with Ashlyn Thompson, the co-founders of Charlotte's Hope Foundation and the empowered by hope podcast. We have with us Ms Kim Flood from Columbus, ohio. I'm so just grateful for her time joining us today. She is a wealth of knowledge, a just beautiful soul inside and out and has been very helpful in our own journey. Honestly, I think we've only just started. Having you be so helpful in our own journey with Charlotte's Care, I knew the moment that we connected about Charlotte's Care that that's the really fun part about working on Charlotte's Hope Foundation and doing Charlotte's Care. Ashlyn, I don't know. I'm sure you see the similarities too where you make connections for Charlotte's Hope Foundation or for our daughters personally. There's so much crossover because we're living the life every single day. We are in the trenches of complex medical care. It's really fun. There is zero division between work life and family life, which can have its challenges too. I love that we were able to connect with you, kim, through.
Speaker 2:It was actually through a series of messages I posted on Charlotte's Hope Foundation about a trauma we had. That's kind of a heavy word to use, but it definitely is evident that when we changed the flavor of toothpaste, charlotte lost it. It literally led to two hours of meltdown and weeping. I posted this on social media for other parents. Hey, for all those out there who have run the gamut of having to give yucky medicines and having to do blood draws and all that stuff, it causes this trauma, these little things. Every kid has this where you change something in their routine and it's upsetting. But when it's to the max in a child with complex medical needs, that's when we bring in the professionals, like Kim.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I posted on social on Charlotte's Hope Foundation, about this relatable story and a friend ended up tagging you, kim, with your amazing program called Bridge to Bravery. You and I got to connect. I think, like I said, we've only just begun the amazing work that I am confident that you and Charlotte will be accomplishing, and myself and the kids as well, all the siblings. Kim, without further ado, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about yourself and we'll dive right in that sounds great.
Speaker 3:Thank you both for having me. I am excited to be here. As Emily said, I am a child life specialist. I have worked in a lot of hospital settings. In child life specialists, we provide social-emotional support In the hospital setting. It used to just be pediatric hospitals and now we can be found in adult settings, in hospices, in just a variety of locations. Our main goal is to support kids coping from a new diagnosis to a trauma, to whatever brings you to the hospital. We use tools that are developmentally appropriate and meet kids right where they are Through a lot of play, a lot of medical play, a lot of processing, a lot of education, therapeutic activities, just to get them to understand what they're experiencing, because it's overwhelming.
Speaker 3:It's always an honor to support a family through it all, because it's a lot for the kids, a lot for the siblings, a lot for the parents. I've been practicing since 2012, and I have worked in inpatient settings. I have supported kids a lot of kids going through transplant and different GI diagnoses. I've worked in burn units and surgical centers and the emergency department. I've been able to support families through all sorts of different difficult situations in life. I think the one foundational thing that I have learned is just this ability to connect through play and the importance of honesty with kids and how to empower kids to cope with situations that are not ideal. It's always amazing to see how kids rise to the occasion.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I see Ashton's wheels turning.
Speaker 4:Yes, I did not know about child life until Emily told me about it. Of course, when we started our journey, emery was a newborn. Essentially Child life wasn't exactly a big part of our journey up front. When we had our first big hospitalization at seven weeks old, we were in there for about a month but I was surprised to learn that child life could actually come in and assist with my older son or six years old Well, at the time he was four years old. That was something that surprised me and was a really nice piece of knowledge to have. That I remember thinking.
Speaker 4:I wonder how many people know that they can ask for this if it's not appropriate for an infant per se. What I am curious about and I realize I've never actually looked into it is how does one become a child life specialist? I think of there's PT, there's OT, there's different types of therapists. What is the training that goes into becoming a child life specialist? You all are absolutely amazing. In our opinion I'm comfortable saying Emily vastly underused. There's so many more opportunities for you all to have a larger influence in how we approach care in general.
Speaker 3:Right. It's funny, as I've progressed, I felt like when I was first starting the field and I'll answer your question. It's funny I felt like in 2012, it was still this education piece of child life specialists in the hospital and how do we get families to know of our services? Sometimes there's just so many families and one person on a unit and so that can affect the ability to meet everyone. My hope is that, as the years progress, that it's just a common entity that everyone knows of it. Sometimes you are not aware until you're aware.
Speaker 3:But for training, for myself, I have my undergraduate degree in education, which I think has been so helpful in planning activities and goal setting and all of that that goes into child life. I have my master's degree in child development with a focus in child life. Anymore, there's more and more master's programs that have child life specialist degrees. You need a degree and you a master's degree and you need to have an internship in child life. So, yeah, I actually I knew an undergrad that I wanted to do this, but I pursued education first just to make sure and then I moved on to child life support. That's amazing.
Speaker 4:Yes, I'm going to have to watch myself because, like you said, ilmoo, I'm so excited to sit down with somebody who's not having to care for my child like in the moment. But one of the things I think might maybe help even myself understand is can you maybe talk a little bit more about what is the real breadth of services and interactions you can provide? Because I remember thinking like, initially, my viewpoint on child life, or assumption, was that it was somebody who would come in and provide, like you said, developmentally appropriate entertainment activities or maybe talking them through a procedure or you know I love the how you use the word empowering them to, you know, participate in what is happening to them. But when I was in England with Emory, over there they called child life specialist play specialists, which is fun. But one of the things that we experienced was the play specialist for our floor was unfortunately on vacation the first couple of days we were there, so she didn't know that Emory was going to be there. So there wasn't like the typical plan in place beforehand, which is, I guess, what they usually try to follow. And so once she got there, by the time we learned about her, emory was already pretty severely traumatized and not at the fault of any medical care provider, but they kept having to do really painful, really scary things in her, in her patient room, which is also where she was expected to sleep and eat and relax and do those things. And once those scary, painful things like getting new IVs, like getting you know shots, like having people hold her down and move catheters that was really painful. She was terrified of her own room and the play therapist.
Speaker 4:When she came into the equation, I mean, I love this woman. She was like, and that all stops. Now we will not be doing those things to Emory in her safe space we are establishing, like she's like. We have a treatment room which, while it may not always seem convenient to move a child to a different space for this, when they're at this age, not old enough to understand that these things have to happen, these are the cases that we you know that we make it a priority to take them out of their, their own room so that we were doing those things that aren't comfortable, that maybe do hurt somewhere else, so they don't associate this space with bad things.
Speaker 4:And every time somebody walks in, something terrible is going to happen. And when she came into the equation, man, our experience changed so much and I was so grateful for it. But, like I said, I was like I had no idea that somebody could come in and provide that type of guidance and I remember the nurses being like, oh gosh, yeah, that that makes sense. We, we didn't even think about doing that with her Right.
Speaker 3:And that's a time that that's hard and that's frustrating when you don't get that care right off the bat right and ideal situation is that you are in for a new diagnosis or even, if you're there in the NICU, that NICUs have child life specialists that work there that work with infants, because there is a, you know, an association later in life with pain and sticks and you know the body remembers those things. So you know can you say that.
Speaker 4:can you repeat that one more time, Please?
Speaker 3:The body remembers the pain. You know there are studies that show that you know they might not remember the experiences as an infant, but their body remembers those painful procedures and so there's a need for coping and support in that you know non pharmacologic or the non medicine based pain management techniques and so I think you know it's a honor to child life specialists. We're not holding all the medical diagnoses in the. You know we're not treating and so we don't have that stress involved. We can see the child where they are and what they need, and so that's a benefit to be able to go into a room and say, whoa, this space is not safe for them. This is, they need this space. They need to know that whoever's coming into this room is their priority is to keep them safe and that they are okay. We do need to do these procedures. So there are treatment rooms for these procedures and how do you create boundaries? And some kids, even for older kids, they don't know that they need that until it's introduced for that control. You know, because so much of kids who are in the hospital, so much of their control is gone. We can control where procedures happen for the most part.
Speaker 3:You know there's always, there's always different circumstances, unfortunately, in the case of your daughter that's, you know you're kind of backtracking, right, and so sometimes you have one step forward and 10 steps back with with coping skills because there's something that didn't quite go right. And that's where the medical play and processing are creating that safe space. And, you know, sometimes taking a step back from the moment which I feel like childlike specialists are really good at assessing to be like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is not going well. The child's overwhelmed, the parents are overwhelmed. This is painful. Why don't we take a step back? Is this an emergency, most likely in the room, not an emergency situation that we can take a step back and assess what is the best steps moving forward, especially with those painful procedures and that way, when they're coming in to check their heartbeat and just do those vital checks, that that feels safe and not scary, because that's something that has to be done in their room.
Speaker 3:So, unfortunately, that's where sometimes for parents it's advocating is there something we can do differently? And how do you find your voice to say this doesn't feel right when the medical team is saying we need to do this now, but it doesn't feel right to your child or to you. How do you facilitate that conversation and make that happen? So I'm so glad you guys had the experience of someone stepping in and intervening versus continuously piling up those negative experiences, because it's not like it's a one and done kind of procedure. This is something that needs to be revisited and so we can develop coping skills in a process that works for the child. And that's not always a you go in and try something, an intervention, to help a kid cope, and it doesn't always happen in that one step. But then you build a foundation for their ability to cope and understand what they can control and what they can't control. And then all of a sudden you start to build a foundation for trust in the adults around you that they're going to support you with this thing. That is overwhelming.
Speaker 4:Right, and just to wrap up, one more thing, and then, emily, you can jump in.
Speaker 1:This is fantastic.
Speaker 4:Just listening to you paint that picture too, it made me realize, when the we'll say Child Life Specialists for the sake of this episode, when they did come into the picture now that I think about it, what was so wonderful. In addition, obviously our first priority was helping Emory feel better, because that's such a terrible feeling as a parent, knowing when you know something is wrong but you don't know what your abilities are to do about it. That can be very, that is often very confusing and very murky water walking this path with our kids in the medical field, because you, like you said you had these people like I remember it being like she needs to get hydrated now and it's like, well, okay, but you know, I agree with that. But if we can get her to the point of her actually participating in getting herself hydrated rather than sticking four more needles and three people holding her down, I would rather see if there's an approach that way.
Speaker 4:And but what I realized is when that play specialist or Child Life Specialists came in, they really walked alongside us as the parents to have those conversations with those medical, you know, with the doctors, with the nurses, to be able to say, like it was just kind of felt like I had like muscle behind me, if that makes sense.
Speaker 4:Somebody there who wasn't you know like I felt like the. It brought in more credibility and they listened better, because I think sometimes it's really easy for a medical provider, not purposely, but when a parent is emotionally distraught, sometimes I think they want it's easy to. Well, of course, this is hard, or you see this as intense because it's your child, when in reality you know like we're advocating, like these are reasonable requests that our child should not leave or feel so traumatized every time they see a person. Or the fact that my daughter didn't want to eat on her own for three days, like that's she wasn't even two yet Like that was extreme. And having that person come in and knowing how the system works, knowing the resources that were available, it was just a really, really huge asset. And thank you for taking time to explain some additional ways that people can work with a child life specialist in a different settings.
Speaker 3:Right, what you just said made me think too. You know one thing working with parents who you know, it's overwhelming when you're this makes me think of a lot of kiddos that I worked with that needed a transplant, and the transplant surgeon, who was hard to come by, would come to their room and you know, you think you're ready with all your questions and what you need and what you, you know, need to access, but then they are there and it's like, oh shoot, I forgot you know. So a tip is to always have a notebook, which you guys probably know. Always have a notebook, always have your questions written down, and that can go with coping skills too, with a coping plan. That way, everyone knows how to best support your child. So you know, what do they need during a medical procedure? Do they need to watch? Do they need to look away? Do they need a comfort hold? Do they need you know what tools do we have in place? That we know and which is process will always change and update and evolve as your child evolves. But how are you advocating and communicating your own needs and your child's needs? Because in a moment sometimes it's really hard to do that in the stressful moment, right. So if you can like always back up and have these supports and this foundation built in outside of that really stressful moment, those are the times where you can start to take off and your child. Then, once they get old enough, they'll really start to be able to take over their care and verbalize what they need because there's this process right. So, like the hope is.
Speaker 3:And actually I listened to your last podcast and so many bits and pieces stood out to me and this I can't do this yet is so relevant to procedural support and coping skills in the hospital with kids and parents, because you're throwing into this situation that's so stressful and so right now you can't do this. Yet you don't know how to support your child with their coping needs as an infant, or your siblings with what that looks like. But that's where that psychosocial support can come in, from child life or from a social worker or a chaplain or whatever that looks like, to give you that muscle, like you said, to be there, to give you that foundation to start to slowly but surely take that over yourself. So taking over what your child needs for cope yourself. That you don't always you know you don't always need the support of a child life specialist. Your child might need it.
Speaker 3:I had a patient once that I worked with for two years that wrote me a note that said thank you so much for getting me here, but now I can do it by myself, and that was like the best thing I could ever want and this was only from an eight year old you know. I started working with her when she was six. She was eight and I can do this by myself because it's like I can't do this yet. I think evolves when you're experiencing those procedures.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's such a beautiful lead-in too to really I'm loving this conversation so much. We could go a million different directions with this. What got me really excited about bringing you to our listeners, kim, is that I remember early on in my journey as well, not knowing what's my role. What can I intervene on, what can't I. How do I comfort her in something that has to happen and is painful and is traumatic? How do I be there for her without her equating me as the hands holding her down or me as the evil one putting her through this? And so I'm really excited to continue to expand on this, especially for those, if you're listening, who are newer to the journey, because, to your point, kim, I don't. I think having that input from child life at certain intervals, I mean, heck, we're six years into this and I'm still. I'm just about to start leaning on you monthly, kim, but it's not for forever, but it's teach us things like what about when we have yet another yucky medicine? How do we help them take that without it being I'm gonna hold you down and force this in your mouth? No mom or dad or parent or caregiver wants to do that. So there's just all these examples of wonderful ways that child life has helped coach me along the way and will continue to coach me because I have so much to learn.
Speaker 2:One story that I think really catapulted our journey with Charlotte into this idea of learning my role as the advocate and leaning on different specialists to help me learn it, including Child Life, was early on. I think she was like a few days old. I went to one of the tests with her and I don't even remember what the test was called. It's all written out in the book, but once I wrote the book I forgot all the details. Anyway, I had to hold her down for an hour for this procedure, which I didn't know that I could say you know I'm out, somebody else do this. But in hindsight I also like after that experience. It was so traumatic, she was so upset and I remember her looking me in the eye and screaming bloody murder and me thinking she thinks I'm like the worst mother ever and I felt like the worst mother ever. And so then I remember making a market decision that from now on I will not even be in the room when painful things happen. Now keep listening to me, listeners, because I'm not suggesting that's a good solution. I did that for like six months. Every time there would be a poke, I left the room. Every time there was.
Speaker 2:Whatever the painful thing was, I was out and I had actually a occupational therapist confront me in the most loving, amazing way. The one day it was before I knew who child life was or what it was. And she said you know, emily, what do you think is the most traumatic for Charlotte? Is it you being there holding her for a procedure, or is it you leaving her when she needs you the most? And I thought I got a dagger to the heart and I was here. I'm thinking I'm, you know, trying to help her equate my hands to being loving and really what I'm doing is leaving her at the time she needs me the most.
Speaker 2:And so she helped me learn this language of just being really up front with Charlotte and saying you know what this is going to be hard, this is going to hurt Mommy's going to hold you nice and tight and I'm with you through it all. You know whatever the script is for for whatever the procedure is, but that revolutionized our care when I started owning the fact that pain is going to be a part of this journey and I'm going to have to be right there in with it. And now, how do we learn how to cope with it in a way that is very upfront and honest and real? You know, like, okay, we're going to get a poke from this needle and there's going to be red that comes out of your arm. You know, just really upfront, it changed. It radically changed our experiences.
Speaker 3:You know it is so tricky to learn and there's grace in every situation, right, there's grace for not knowing and there's no perfect, there's no perfect way. So in that moment it felt hard for you to be there and and you didn't want that associate association and your learning and you know like that's a it's a lot to learn and holding a child down for a procedure is it's traumatizing. It's traumatizing for parents, it's traumatizing for everyone. This idea of comfort holds is which, for parents who don't know, a comfort hold is a way to position a child in a way that is the least restrictive but safe, supportive in what your child needs to feel comforted. Now, depending on the procedure, there's all sorts of ways to do this and sometimes it takes slowing down a minute and not laying your child flat on the you know, on the bed table to do this procedure, because that, for a lot of kids, is vulnerable. Now, there's still some kids who don't mind, you know who don't mind that, so everyone's different.
Speaker 3:But, yes, that idea of a fast forward to the idea of being there to support your child in a comforting way is important. It's important for your child to see that you're there, that you can be honest that you you know they're not alone in this procedure. Also, I've also had parents that aren't comfortable with holding or doing comfort holds, which, if I have a relationship with the child, the Child Life Specialist is happy to say are you comfortable with me providing this comfort hold for your child and mommy can be there to hold your hand or to watch this video with you or, you know, get everyone up, job and position so everyone feels comfortable? Yeah, it's a process to learn what works best for everyone and for, as you as a parent, to feel like okay in this situation where your child is receiving a painful procedure. There's nothing that can prepare you for that or or make you ready to know how to how to experience that with your child. And so, yes, parents, google comfort holds if you're like.
Speaker 2:I haven't heard.
Speaker 3:You know I haven't heard what this is. There are just really great resources out there. You should never have to restrain your child. That just doesn't feel safe and it's that like 10 steps backwards with coping when they feel like you know, held down for something painful, that's like not, that doesn't. That doesn't help with coping skills. So, Emily, you mentioned that like honest language and I think sometimes we feel like we're going to implode children's world with bad news. Right, I think this is like hard topics in general. Like you don't want to be the one to tell your child they need an IV or they're going to have surgery. That feels like you are just giving them news. That is too hard.
Speaker 3:I remember starting as a travel specialist and realizing like, oh man, how am I going to play with this child? But also tell them something really hard is coming up for them and work with their family and let them know this hard news. Doesn't that, like I had this like disconnect, like this cognitive dissonance, like this doesn't feel right to give this bad news, which parents also feel that. But that honesty I mean that is that is where coping skills come from is to know that people around you are going to be honest and truthful, no matter how hard it is, and that's where this, like preparation, comes in. Sometimes I have different ideas.
Speaker 3:I think, then, how much time a child needs for something. I think if you have time to prepare them for something, you give them that time versus right before. You give them time to cope and process and cry or be mad or be, you know, whatever that feeling they're feeling when this news comes up. Let them experience that, because that's okay.
Speaker 3:But you're also giving them a piece of information that they need to start understanding what is to come, and it's just saying those simple words that you need an IV. Do you remember what an IV is? You know, do you? And that's where you can bring in a child life specialist to explain that it's a tiny straw for one of those blue lines that you have on your on your hand or on your arm or wherever. You know, wherever they find the best blue line and you know, then you can use the method, you know. Then you can use the medical equipment to explain what a tourniquet is and that whole process, even if they've had 10 IVs, you know. I think sometimes we forget that kids need that ability to control and manipulate, and understand what's going on to be able to cope with the hard thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we one time. Sorry, you can hear a bunch of hula hula hand going on in the back.
Speaker 2:That's the wrong wrong term a lot of shenanigans, kids are running around probably building forts and who knows what. But we had one child life specialist once and it was probably at this point our 40th IV and so it didn't even dawn on me, but when she did it it rocked my world because it rocked Charlotte's world. She had this map of the steps for an IV and it's almost the same every time, you know, and she had stickers that every time we did whatever you know, put the tourniquet on, did the alcohol, did the alcohol swap whatever she would go through it first. So Charlotte knew all the steps and then she had stickers that every time we accomplished each step she got to do a sticker and then I think she got a prize at the end and it just helped her visualize. She was like, oh okay, so next I'm going to get this numbing spray, you know.
Speaker 2:And next, and it just was so helpful and it made me realize and I love what you said about this concept of grace, because you do have to have so much grace with yourself, because, of course. Then my next thought is why didn't I think of that 40 IVs later? You know it's not that hard, could have done that, but these are things you don't know until you realize you didn't know them. You know, just like you said. So it does take an immense amount of grace and I say that you know, fully, knowing I still need to extend a lot of grace to myself over things like the toothpaste, you know, flavor changes, and I could go on with all the examples.
Speaker 2:That happened day in and day out. So I just I love everything you just said and I know when we started using really honest and real language with Charlotte, it really changed things. When we just folder exactly what's going to happen and even use the medical terms and you know, and, of course, then explained it like oh, it's a straw and it's an IV, and helping you know it. Just you can tell she sits a little taller and really appreciates like, yeah, I can, I can follow along what you're saying.
Speaker 2:My my my dad, but very helpful.
Speaker 4:I want to jump in really quickly and go go back a couple steps to something you said earlier that I just like I keep thinking about this over and over since you said it and I think it's really important to call out. One of the things I appreciate most is that you gave a really great example that we can all learn from and and hold on to as parent advocates, that it is completely okay and I would even say encourage at times to ask for things to be slowed down, not only like when should we be doing it and it's how should we be doing it, but the pace that we're doing it. And, emily, you and I have talked about this a lot of times that, like I, can sympathize with a nurse or a doctor who has to do something that is, they know, hurts, they know is inflicting pain essentially and and there seems to be this mindset a lot of times to, okay, let's just we're just going to get this over with as fast as we can, so that's done and it's over and we can move past it. But what I know, that I've experienced, and I know Charlotte's experience it is that, okay, the procedure itself may have gone in record time, but the amount of trauma that we have to deal with afterwards seems that much greater, that much larger. And so, like I love the, this concept of comfort holds and I'm already thinking like gosh, I wish I knew that, but I am sure is I'm going to ask you for some resources is actually after this, can let us know if there's any good links that you would recommend that we send people to, because I'm sure there's a lot of information online about it, but would love your input on some that you prefer.
Speaker 4:But I wish so much I had known those and and there's so many times that it takes a while to feel empowered to do so, because I definitely didn't feel like it during our first hospitalization, but later on just being able to say I know you want to get this over with really quickly, but sometimes even like I remember wound cleaning she needs a break. I know you want to just get this over with, but she needs a little bit of time to just breathe and catch her breath and not feel like the world is imploding around her. Like you can tell, your child has limits and and that's on us in a really awesome, powerful way, to know that nobody knows our children better than we do. And so that is where empowerment, can you know, we can be empowered by that intuition, by that relationship we have with our child, that she is at her limits, he cannot handle more or this is not going to get the benefit from it that we are. We are attempting Emily, you talked to me a lot about the concept of you know out what like of weighing are the pros worth? You know, do the pros actually outweigh the cons of this situation? And sometimes it's going to be on us to be the ones to say no. I remember I had to do that with Emory back in December, prior to going over to London.
Speaker 4:Initially, our American doctors wanted to do a type of test that includes a catheterization, where they're filling the bladder while they're awake and like literally they're tell for if it's too much is when the child is so upset physically or like is so uncomfortable, because she wasn't old enough to use words. And I remember hearing this and thinking how on Earth is this one truly considered health like? How is this really giving her health care? Because this just sounds totally traumatic and also, if I even take it a step back, not just thinking of this as her mom. Just thinking of the human body. I know the things that my body will not do when I am incredibly tense. She's obviously going to be very distraught.
Speaker 4:So how are you going to get really good, solid measurements from a child that is extremely upset, extremely uncomfortable, and know that they are accurate? And so luckily, I was able to. Then it was nice having a surgeon in a whole other country be able to say we don't need her to be awake for that, do that under anesthesia, it's fine, we are. Yes, there's a little bit of difference in the measurements, but the swing and measurements it is not so big that it then gives us a false reading, like you know, a false idea of what we're working with. It's close enough that it is completely sufficient and it's definitely not worth putting the child through that type of emotional stress. So I just wanted to circle back to that because thank you for pointing that out that that is a part of maybe even I don't know if you can call that coping. You know a coping mechanism is slowing things down.
Speaker 3:It definitely is. I mean that's. I think that's one of those things that you learn as you go, especially, you know, what you said made me think of when I have worked with kids with wound care for burns and that's an obvious thing. That is really painful and we would have. We've had little cards that the child had and maybe had like a max of three break cards that you could you know when you needed to break you pull the card out and so you can take a break.
Speaker 3:So you have this visual, knowing that if you need it they will pause, and it won't be for this extended period of time. There'll be a short pause, maybe 30 seconds to a minute, and then we're going to get back to it to finish. But I think that is completely a part of the coping plan to slow down and I think that's where it's a benefit to get everyone on the same page before a procedure, particularly I mean any procedure, particularly a painful procedure to slow down is a benefit. I think sometimes, you know, child life specialists do sometimes have a challenge getting referred to procedures with this idea of sometimes it slows people down. You know, sometimes it's perceived as slowing people down when in actuality, when you have a child that is compliant and coping and feels safe, that actually increases, increases the speed, right, because now someone's on board for what's happening to them, and then you don't have this extreme. I mean, even after procedure, even if the child coped well, there will be still hard feelings afterwards, most likely right. And sometimes, as a child life specialist, we look at that cool down time. Did that take two hours to calm down after that procedure or was it a five minute calm down and we're like back to playing. And this is, you know, like that's a part of coping that we also look at and assess as a child life specialist after procedure. How long did it take you to regulate after this painful procedure happened?
Speaker 3:But I think that's hard to advocate slowing down when you're not the one doing the procedure.
Speaker 3:It feels intimidating to slow the pace.
Speaker 3:But I think it's so important to recognize what your child needs and again, I think if everyone could get on the same page before the procedure, that is so helpful.
Speaker 3:And that doesn't mean that things might not change in the you know in the middle of things, but we at least know that what your child's going to do to cope whether that's maybe they're watching a show or maybe they're looking away, or maybe it's their comfort hold, or maybe they like to blow bubbles during the really painful part to you know, take that deep breath in, blow the bubbles and release that pain. You know, whatever that is, everyone knows what to expect and can support the whole process and the parent and the child. And then you know, as a parent, that someone is looking out for your child's coping needs too and they're not just focused on this medical procedure, but I think that the incorporating those flags for longer, more painful procedures is important to say let's take a break, don't just rush through this and get this done on my child. I know it's helpful for you, but not helpful for the long term right now.
Speaker 4:Especially when it's something that's going to have to be done more than the over and over.
Speaker 4:And you know you said the idea of you know that there's a bit of reluctance possibly, and at times, to invite child life into those, because it's known that it might slow things down. But I guess my question is and I'm sure it's like that of most parents is who is it really slowing it down for and who is it? What is it costing and who and I think that's one of the things that we can't, you know, continue to kid ourselves. We have enough information to know that these stressful, traumatic situations do have an impact and they have an impact on their health long term. So, you know, years ago, when maybe we didn't have this evidence, I could see how they could make it all about efficiency from a. We have this many minutes to do this, to get this many patients through, to do these, this many assessments, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 4:But I think that's something that is really important to Emily and I and part of Charlotte's Hope Foundation, is how do we, you know, how do we help the entire viewpoint of looking at how we give care, how do we, how do we encourage it to improve and its delivery?
Speaker 4:Because we now have this additional information that we didn't have before.
Speaker 4:So please don't tell me you have to get this done in a few minutes simply because that's how it's always been just get it over with quickly. No, you as a nurse now know, or you as a doctor now know, that it is far more impactful, in a negative way, when you rush this experience rather than take the time to make the child feel safe. So that way, the next seven times we have to do this. It's not progressively worse and worse in taking more time, because I know every one of us here and if you haven't had a child go through this yet or hopefully never, but I think we've a lot of us, at least all three of us have experienced how incredibly strong physically a small child can be when they are traumatized, terrorized and do not want to do something. And I don't care how many strong adults you have holding a child to do a procedure when they are at that level. It is going to take you significantly longer than if your child is somewhat calm, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, plus nobody wants to do that. No, it's cool, but I know that.
Speaker 4:I've experienced it and I've seen it over and over and it is heartbreaking for everybody when, if we just have child life involved in absolutely everything, maybe we can make this.
Speaker 3:Well, I think child life specials are working on that, right there, advocating. There they are. I am not no longer in the inpatient setting or hospital setting anymore, but I know that advocacy is strong and there are people working for your kids and working to change that and make it the norm and I think there's been a lot of light shed on how to support kids with their coping and and try to build this foundation and skill set. You know, I, I that patient I mentioned earlier that I can do this by myself. Now, you know, I think sometimes we also underestimate what is the thing that's going to be the most triggering for kids. So for her it was her pick line dressing change. It was like the thing that she just it was so scary. She had one really bad experience where it just hurt and I think it's one of those things that sometimes I think I think those little procedures that set off you know the anxiety and then tense reaction, you know that like deep visceral reaction of this doesn't feel good. Yeah, I think I think we underestimate those smaller procedures that elicit that response and for her, I think everyone just thought like this is so little, this is your dressing change, let's just get this done, quick, move on and be done. It's once a week and this is a thing that she just couldn't and wouldn't and didn't want to do, and it was really, really fun to watch this process unfold with her. And you know, to cope with that and gain control, she made books to understand what her pick line was and why she needed it. She we had to. We did so much medical play, so much play with With the catheter change and what that looked like and what she needed to do when, and so for this part, she was gonna look away. For this part she wanted to help. You know she actually her job was to peel the tape away so as kids get older, they can get more involved with their care if we let them, and that empowers them to cope. If you know, we find the things that they can take over for her as well. She needed a sign on her door that said she always wanted the medical information to come from her parents, and so she said if you have medical information discussed, we made a sign together. We paste it on her door. If you have something medical to discuss, please talk to my parents outside of the door and do not do things in my room and it was amazing, you know, all these like game changing, empowering Experiences and and that is why she ended up being able to do it by herself, because she found her voice. And so I think this like slow down, this doesn't feel good for anyone in the room right now. That's just finding your voice and healthcare.
Speaker 3:And I know parents from whose babies were in the NICU, whose child needed chronic medical support and needs. You know, initially they went from not feeling comfortable to touching their child because there's so much medical equipment that, like you know, nurses do that. That's not me, that's, you know, nurses take care of my child and this like this, this fear, and Then, once the fear subsided and this, the coping skills started and then they started to take over and then their kids started to take over. You know, like this beautiful Dance that happened with learning coping skills, that started from this really scary moment in the beginning and just evolved because of Experiences that didn't go well, that there was a time for growth and a time for the psychosocial team to intervene, where you know I can't tell you how many times with a kiddo that the social worker and the chaplain and I all sat down together and said, okay, how can we best support this family right now with where they are? I just experienced a really hard procedure. Hey, can you? You know, chaplain, can you go check in with the parents? They're having a really hard time right now. That was really stressful. You know this like constant. That's like I think a thing for families is to lean into the resources that are available to you in the hospital, because there are some really good people there working that are there to support you, are there to support you outside of these stressful moments to plan and to empower and to Teach and learn and grow together. Like you know everyone, there's so many people with so many good Tools and, yeah, they're to support. So I think that's a piece of procedural coping and support is really leaning into your resources at the the hospital, because they all impact things Eventually.
Speaker 3:And this family I keep referencing I reference them because she was so impactful to me to have a child State those words to say I can do it by myself. This family, too, did not understand the need to, in the beginning, be honest with their child, and so this was also a child who and they weren't honest not not to be harmful to the child, but just because they didn't know, they felt like it was more harmful to be honest and to are more More impactful, to just keep her Having fun and not aware and just get through things. But really full circle. It was giving her information, being honest, giving her coping skills, leaning into all the support in the hospital, and then she thrived and she felt it right. That's it.
Speaker 3:That's my long-winded answer to say, like you know, if you lean into your resources and lean into all these tools that are there, but you're right, sometimes you have to ask for them, though you know sometimes they don't just come to you, unfortunately that you need to know to ask for. You know who is my psychosocial support, who is, who's in our corner to help us get through this experience? And I say psychosocial support because child life specials don't work in isolation in the hospital. You know it's a, it is a team effort to support families.
Speaker 2:Well, you have just painted this mosaic of where we're headed with Charlotte that maybe at eight she can look at her Wildlife specialists and psychologists and social workers and say I got this, I know how to do this. That'd be amazing. Oh my gosh, that's so good, thank you Also just painted.
Speaker 4:So Emily and I are in the midst of working on some really incredible I don't know project isn't even a big enough word, honestly initiative, movements, whatever We'll be sharing more about, but at the center of it, what we are off, what we are really driving focus to, is the need for care to be this 360 approach all the time and and that's what I feel like, man, child life seems like such a great Framework, if you will. First, for helping everybody be positioned and educated and prepared To take care of a child, not just treat a patient, not just treat a wound writer or in a disease. It's, it is helping us all remember that this is a child, a human being with their own experience. And how do we, how do we help them get through this with the least amount of Emotional scarring as possible, because pain is unavoidable and that, I would say, is one of the hardest things that we just have, we have to accept on this journey.
Speaker 4:But I love that you are showing us like there's a really clear path and there's there's kind of like how we say, there's always hope. That's what I feel like you all really bring to the picture. There's always a way to to improve upon the experience? Yeah, to help our children. There is it. Maybe we can't stop the pain from happening, but, my gosh, we can. We can help lower other types of pain the emotional pain, the, the pain that comes from probably feeling like you can't trust adults, right right.
Speaker 3:You actually. You just made me think of something I I say a lot to kids is you know, this idea of you're right, like you can't. You can't take away the pain and sometimes you have to do hard things to keep your body safe and healthy. And these are the hard things that you have to do. You are so brave. Keeping your body safe and healthy, you know this is, this is hard. You are you. You know all these validating things right. You can be brave and you can be nervous, like this might feel. This might make you feel nervous. That is okay. You can be brave and nervous. You are taking care of your body. That is really hard to do and you are doing an amazing job.
Speaker 3:And Kind of backtracking too, when you've had those. You know we can talk about these like negative experiences. Sometimes it takes to build the like I can do this mindset and that growth mindset right of you know, maybe it was a disaster, but you find that one little tiny thing, that that went really well and that could be like wow, you sat on the table and you did it and you were there. And you know I didn't put you on the table, you just you were on the table. I was. That was really impressive, even if from there they, they lost it. But you know, instead of like, that frames their narrative of okay, all right, I didn't said that like, oh, that was so hard, that was bad, that was, you know, you screamed, you cried, you thrashed. We had to do that so many times that's like okay, well, what did they do right? And that's with a lot of situations in life. It could be hard to see what kids did right in that moment, but there was some. You know, there is something. And then the next time it's wow, you, even though that was hard last time, I'm so impressed you were, you were on the, the bed just waiting for the nurse or the tape, you know, wherever. It is like you were there, you were really, really still.
Speaker 3:When they clean that area, that was Amazing. That's usually really hard for you when they clean, because sometimes that can be the trigger, because all of a sudden it's like okay, they're cleaning, okay, this is sterile. Now you know like, okay, this, this thing is happening, and so it's that little thing. That's hard. But you know, you build those, those foundational skills. That seems so small and sometimes it is a stretch. You know everyone's sweating, it was right. You know, even even as a child, like specials, I've been in those situations where you walk out You're like, okay, we did that cracking up because I've been in so many of those we're like we made it that was.
Speaker 3:That was something, you know. That's hard a lot of times, a lot of needle stick. You know, even even with child life support, it doesn't mean that it goes Perfect, but there are like glimmers of hope, there's glimmers of kids doing something right, because, man, that was hard, you know, I that was. There's so many times it was hard I used to help with. There's a little girl who used to need Rectal irrigations or clean outs, and that's a hard, it's just an uncomfortable thing, and she needed them all the time it was. It was something she would need her whole entire life and it was hard, and we got to a point where she was so Proud of herself. But it was those little, you know. It took a lot of little tiny praises to Get to a point where she could remain still and calm the whole time, and she was so excited that she Flipped her arms up and said I did it, and then her bucket of the poopy water went off, oh my, but we were still celebrating together.
Speaker 3:You know so much effort, though, to get to that place, and so I think advice for parents is to not give up and to find the, the Really important little things that their child did well, even in the middle of the stressful, rough moments, and to know when afterwards, when you need to step back and just connect.
Speaker 3:If you have that luxury of time, which isn't always, you know what you get. But you know that rekindling the safety, you are safe. That was hard. You had to do this hard thing for your body. You know we do a lot of like post procedural plays. So even if you don't have a child like specialist with you and it was hard you can ask for a child like specialist to come in afterwards and Do some post procedural support, because sometimes that's just as important is to play after the stressful procedure and get the actual medical equipment in there and Explore and find some control again, and that can be just as impactful For a child as it is to prepare. If you didn't have that time to prepare and have that experience that's so beautiful I.
Speaker 4:Love that idea of we're always thinking about our kids first, of course, like I was totally glued in when you were talking about, like you know, finding all those like Almost thinking, like the little ladder rungs that you can, you know, that you can acknowledge.
Speaker 4:But I think too, like you know, we're talking to parents and caregivers, like I'm hearing this and I'm thinking, you know, my kid would probably benefit from me even doing that for myself. A lot of times is is stepping back and going like, okay, we got through it, and maybe last time I held my breath the entire time, and this time I think I only held my breath like 75% of the time. Or last time, maybe I cried, and this time I didn't cry till it was over. And actually that is one question I do want to bring up. And then I would love to make sure that we hear about the bridges to bravery. I definitely want to know what you're doing, since it sounds. Just the name alone has me extremely curious and loving it. But going back to that, oh gosh, do you all ever do that.
Speaker 2:You had the question you got really excited and it's all the time away.
Speaker 4:So let's move forward, let's talk about, let's let us learn about bridges to bravery, and then, if I think of it, I'll bring it back.
Speaker 3:Okay, I do want to say really quick, ashlyn, that those moments, as a parent too, where you're giving yourself that okay to cry, that's what I was going to ask about Thank you.
Speaker 4:Is it okay? What happened, like showing emotion when something really hard is going on as a parent? What is your advice? Because, oh my gosh, like sometimes that is just you know, I think it's healthy.
Speaker 3:I think it's healthy and okay for kids to see you cry. That was hard. You know mommy's sad right now, but I know you're brave and I'm so proud of you. I think, where it gets, I think, with crying, where it is the parent leaning on the child for emotional support, versus showing your feelings of sadness or madness, or you know you're not using your child, as they're not expected to hold you up when you are sad. You know, I think that is. The differentiation is that it is okay to cry. Mommy is sad right now or mommy is mad Mommy. You know, as a parent, those are all just human. I think they're just human emotions and that teaches your kids. It is okay to cry, it is okay to be mad. And you know something I tell my own kids as I say, you know, if they're really sad about something, I will, you know, will be in there. It's sad, you are, you know, you are okay. It is okay to be sad and when it gets to be a time like you know, 30 minutes, if we're still sad, okay, we're still feeling sad about this, okay, what are we going to do with that sadness? How are we going to help you. It feels hard to be in that feeling. What are we going to do to move on from that feeling? Not move on, but cope with it, right Like you, just work through it. Yeah, how are we going to work through this really hard feeling right now? So, for parents, it is completely okay.
Speaker 3:I think some parents feel like you need to shelter your kid from hard feelings. It's that same with honesty, with with medical procedures. It's the same for feelings. You're human. You know you're going to cry in front of your kids and and that's okay. You know that was, that was hard. You're crying, mommy's crying. You know you can also like make. That's where, like, humor is too. Like, oh, mommy is sad right now. You're sad, we're all sad. What are we going to do together to help us when we feel sad? You know I would love to snuggle right now. Do you want to snuggle with me and and just be together? That was really. That was really hard, because that's normal. That's hard to see your child go through hard and painful procedures. There's, there's nothing that can prepare you for that or make it feel okay in that moment.
Speaker 4:No matter how many times right, there's nothing, it doesn't matter how many times you've seen it.
Speaker 2:Right, yep, right. So that's where. Yeah, go ahead, kim Sorry.
Speaker 3:No, I just. That's where grace comes in, and and honesty with your kids, because that, yeah, that gives them permission to feel too, cause feelings are confusing. Especially if your kids are little, they're having a hard time identifying what that is. They're feeling anyways, and so when parents label feelings, it gives kids that skill set to say, oh okay, mommy was feeling that, I feel that too. That gives labeling of feelings and sometimes, I think you know, actions speak louder with than words. With kids, right, they see how we cope and then they develop healthy coping skills too, or you know, or they see our not good coping skills too, and they see that as well, cause that's all human.
Speaker 4:I'm over here covering my eyes a little bit like shielding myself a little bit from oh. There's maybe been a couple of examples.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's just one, or?
Speaker 4:two Right, yeah, 14,. I don't know 75.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or when you don't cope right. That's such a beautiful learning opportunity for kids. It's so beautiful, even when you're mad, like what a? What a gift to children for you to identify, when you mess up too Right, like that's a there's. There's so much like, so much to be learned in that experience. Yes, you know we're not perfect. Nobody is perfect. Nobody responds to stress perfectly. You know that's, there's just no.
Speaker 4:It is perfect, it doesn't exist.
Speaker 3:And that's important to teach our kids. There's no perfect way to do things and to cope and to feel, and however you feel is okay, and let's find safe ways to cope with these big feelings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, my gosh, kim. We could go on for hours. I knew this is what, that we would just want to keep going and going. So I but that's when you know we have hit a very important topic and an amazing guest, that just the conversation keeps going and I've taken so many notes for our show notes. Ashley and I will put our heads yeah, ashley's got them too Put our heads together to make sure everybody has a great resource in the show notes. There's so many takeaways, gosh. I don't know what we're going to name this podcast, because there's so many wonderful wonderful things.
Speaker 4:Only name I've gotten my head is when does Kim come back, Like I think we're going to need to see some more Kim more frequently and Kim, since we didn't dive into it, we will. We would love to share. Can you give us just a really like I hate to say a quick synopsis, because it's worth more than that, but what is it that you like? What does Bridges to Bravery do?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So what is your goal? My goal is to support kids coping outside of the hospital setting. So you know, as Emily and I talked about with the toothpaste incident, you know it doesn't just stay in the hospital your child's medical needs and coping needs. So what I do? So my company's Bridges to Bravery and I support families going through difficult experiences through kids medical diagnosis, through appearance diagnosis. I provide education and tools for a family to communicate and support their journey together. So the bridge to Bravery is thinking of, you know, bridging that gap between kids and parents to support their understanding of this hard experience that they're having, and supporting communication skills and coping skills. And I do a lot of. I bring Emily's seen my bag, I roll my bags of stuff and provide support in a home setting versus the hospital setting.
Speaker 2:So I loved how, when you came, you were intentional about incorporating the siblings too, because they have their own set of challenges witnessing all of this happening over and over and over. So we did a really fun activity that all the kids got to participate in and, of course, varying levels of understanding, but we have. We have kept the paintings from when you were here and have referenced them several times and it's been really it was. I can't remember. I think I messaged you afterwards, when Charlotte said something after you were here, that I was like wow, it really set in with her what we were talking about. And I'm sorry I'm staying vague because I can't remember but I just remember being blown away.
Speaker 3:Is that the crown? Oh, she said she's going to use it to cope her crown that she made.
Speaker 2:Yes, is that it? Yes, she said she was going to use it to help us to craft. And she said she was going to put on her crown because she was very brave to take her yucky medicine. And it was yucky medicine. Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3:I was well honored to support your family, Emily, and meet you all, and it's been. It's been really fun to do child life in the community. It's been fun to meet families where they are and with what they need and work from there. So I feel, I feel honored every situation I get to support a family.
Speaker 2:It's incredible, and if listeners want to get in touch with you, what's the best way? Is it your website?
Speaker 3:Probably my website. Yes, Bridge to Bravery, bridgetobraverycom, where they can email me at bridgetobraverycom Perfect.
Speaker 2:Well, kim, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your incredible insight. We will be working on amazing show notes to live up to this awesome podcast, and hopefully we'll be having you on again soon too. I would love that, thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 4:You're welcome. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:You are capable, you are equipped and you are not alone. Together, we can do hard things for our children. If this episode connected with you and you want to hear more, be sure to hit the subscribe button. We would also love to learn about your personal journey and how we can support you. Reach out to us at contact at charlottehopefoundationorg. And, last but not least, if you know of someone who could benefit from this podcast, please share.
Speaker 3:We hope it bears.