The Pressure We Put on Ourselves and the Burnout That Follows

In this episode, Ashlyn sits down with Danielle Ireland—licensed therapist and host of Don’t Cut Your Own Bangs—for a real, unfiltered conversation about the internal pressure so many medical parents and caregivers carry.

That constant voice that says you’re both too much and not enough…
 that you should be doing more, even when you’re already doing everything…
 that it’s all on you to hold it together and make it okay.

Together, they explore:

•  why that sharp inner voice often gets louder when you’re exhausted, overloaded, and carrying complex medical responsibilities 
•  the myth of “normal”—and why it’s a shaky and often harmful measuring stick in both mental health and medicine 
•  how labels, diagnoses, and “normal ranges” can be helpful information without becoming a verdict on your worth 
•  the cycle so many parents experience: motivation → reinvention → burnout → shame → repeat 
•  why your nervous system doesn’t need more pressure—it needs safety, honesty, and small moments of relief 

And importantly—this isn’t just a conversation about awareness. It’s also practical.

Danielle shares simple, grounding ways to meet yourself in real time:

•  becoming aware of what you’re actually feeling 
•  acknowledging it somewhere safe 
•  letting it guide your next tiny step 

You’ll also hear powerful prompts like “Am I lying right now?” and “Where is the water warm?”

This episode meets you where you are—not where you think you should be.

If you’ve been hard on yourself behind the scenes or quietly wondering if you’re doing enough… this is for you.

You are capable. You are equipped. And you are not alone.

Danielle Ireland: Speaker. Licensed Therapist. Podcast Host. Ballroom dancer. Actress. Recovering perfectionist. Wife. Mother & Super-sized laugher.

Don't Cut Your Own Bangs Podcast: A podcast for unfiltered living.
Embrace the messy journey to live a life you love.

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Get your copy of She is Charlotte: A Mother’s Physical, Emotional, and Spiritual Journey with Her Child with Medical Complexities by Emily K Whiting on Amazon 

Transcript

Welcome And A Vulnerable Confession

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Whether you've just been blindsided by your child's diagnosis or you've been in the trenches of their complex medical needs for a while, Empowered by Hope is here for you. Though we wish you didn't know this heartache, we're so glad you found us, so together we can walk this journey in hope.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Hey everyone, welcome to Empowered by Hope. It's your host, Ashlyn, and I am starting with a confession. This episode was supposed to come out about two weeks ago. But instead, I found myself free-falling into a full 360 judgment spiral, mostly all about myself. I was really worried the conversation was going to be too heavy. To be honest, my headspace lately hasn't been one that I would really want to market or invite anybody else into. I've been struggling with some things that are going on behind the scenes just in my personal life. I kept thinking about the parents who we are here to serve with Empowered by Hope, who are already carrying so much, who come here looking for something steady and encouraging. But I was afraid this was going to feel pretty much the opposite of that. Like I was adding weight instead of lifting it. On top of that, the audio, not our best, folks. There are some interruptions just of normal life things happening. I had to record this episode in a room that was not set up for optimal recording sounds. It was kind of a makeshift studio I needed to work with. And again, the quality, not our best. So I just added that to the growing pile of false event that this was not shareable, not good enough to be shared by Empowered by Hope.

unknown 2:02

Whew.

ADHD Adds A New Layer

SPEAKER_02 2:03

It took a solid minute. Okay, no, it took more than a week for me to actually realize all the angst I was feeling. Not really about the audio. It's not even about how vulnerable this conversation is. It was just me disqualifying myself. It was fear showing up again, reminding me that I still question whether I have the right or the credibility to be a voice of empowerment and hope for other medical families. It's that same voice that used to show up and try to quiet me when I felt myself questioning a doctor or a nurse about my child's needs, the one that would whisper or yell, you're just a mom. You don't know as much as they do. Just be quiet and listen. That was the voice that didn't yet know that my being a mom of my child meant that I knew her better than anybody else possibly could. The more I sat with this, the more I was able to finally accept this conversation, this particular recording is one that we need to hear more of. It is extremely real, definitely no filters applied, and there is no sight of a pretty bow wrapped up around it. It was actually recorded as a shared conversation. So an episode for both Empowered by Hope and my guest, Danielle Ireland, her podcast, Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. I had this conversation with Danielle, a licensed therapist, somebody I, gosh, I deeply trust, I respect, I admire for so many reasons, because I knew that she could provide some really solid insights and some helpful tools. In this conversation, you'll hear us talk about my struggle with a basically constant internal monologue that tells me I'm both not enough and yet too much at the same time, that I'm thinking too far ahead, yet always late, always behind, and that it's somehow on me to figure out everything for everyone and make it all okay on my own, preferably, before anything bad has actually even shown up. It's just not realistic. And I'm hoping what will actually give hope from this conversation is being able to hear something real, raw, and maybe even recognize it a bit in yourself. And mostly I hope it helps anybody who listens feel less alone. There is so much in this conversation to be gained to add to your toolbox of tactics or tips or tricks that you can pull on anytime that you find yourself struggling with just the emotional, mental, realistic weight of being a parent, being a caregiver, all the things. So if you are somebody who is also familiar with a not so nice running voice in the back of your mind that layers you with judgment and false guilt, or maybe you're somebody who's been really hard on yourself, much harder than you would probably ever be on anybody else. This one is especially for you, and I hope that you take at least one or two things from it that help you feel more empowered and more hopeful about your ability to be a little bit kinder to yourself. We're not here to do life alone, we're here to do it together, and I hope that you can feel that in this episode. I would like to start this conversation with a little tiny opening up, I guess. Yeah. In that I thought that being a medical mom made it really a lot to juggle. And then on top of that, though, the reality is that I'm learning being an ADHD medical mum is a whole other layer. And we're not talking like triple layer of the cake, deliciousness, fun.

SPEAKER_04 6:12

It's like feels like just layers of complexity, which matches life and just to add a little side note for anyone listening, the don't cut your own bang side of the conversation that maybe isn't familiar with what medical mom means. It's it's a mother raising a child living with medical complexities.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

And absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 6:34

So I just wanted to because I mean, anyone, anyone who's listened to our conversation, our previous conversations would know, but just in case. So yes, you're a mother, you're a medical mom, and you're a medical mom who has ADHD.

unknown 6:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

And so I have been on this journey, and I know that you and I have talked about this a couple of times. And but the reason I wanted to have this conversation with you, having that been the preface of the way I'm looking at myself as a mom in those different buckets I feel like I'm carrying all the time. Yeah. Is because with your background, with your practice and as a therapist, as a mom, as a creative, as somebody who does lots of different things beautifully, fullheartedly. And also your opening up about your own journey on, you know, don't cut your own bangs podcast, which still to this day holds the title for best podcasts. I've yet to come across anything better than that.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

You're welcome. There should be just simply an award for that. And there, if there's not a category, there should be. We should submit that.

SPEAKER_04 7:42

I'm gonna get real vulnerable here since you are too, and just share that there are moments since I was a wee wee child where I imagine myself winning an award of some kind and like getting like choked up, but like like modestly and humbly, like just but like I fully my body is fully experiencing me accepting an award. I just don't know what the award is. So maybe, maybe this is this is the answered prayer.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

I'm nominating you, I'm finding a way to make this real. What better title podcast could there be? It says it all. And it's just it's so first off, I recommend listening to Danielle's podcast. But Danielle, you are very open and vulnerable on your podcast, sharing that you too are going through your own journey of what I would call is self-discovery, understanding yourself, you know, kind of taking off, if you will, like those layers of beliefs and concepts and practices that you've compiled throughout your life, and taking this time to look at them and ask yourself does this one actually serve me now? Does this fit where I am in life? So listening to you talk about that, I decided I decided to have a friend chat with you because this journey that I've been on has led me to face a really common theme in my life, which is this constant voice in my head that is not one to be diagnosed for the record. It's a very common voice we all have. But that the only way to get to a state of peace or fulfillment or feeling just good about myself is by reinventing myself or renovating myself or redoing, like I keep saying it's all of these different words that we use to look at ourselves and compare to others or what we believe somebody else who often is a stranger is telling us if we will only do X, Y, and Z or one, two, and three, we're going to feel so much better. I think that there were so many benefits to it and a lot of wonderful, helpful tools. But I feel like now having been on that journey pretty intensely for the last probably since my son was like a year old, so what, seven years? Now I'm asking myself, have I come so far around or has this culture of encouraging self-growth come so far around that we've actually started chasing our own tails because now I feel like if I'm not making changes, if I'm not following this advice, then what am I doing? I'm falling short. And so before we go any further, what does that spark for you?

Self-Help Culture And True Intention

SPEAKER_04 10:52

Yeah, it sparked a couple of things. I would say the two is what is the intention from the seeking of help or of this or like the the pursuit of growth or reinvention? What is the underlying intention? Because that will inform how it's approached and ultimately the outcome. And then the other thing it made me think of was what is required when we are living in a time and space where there's so much information. Um, and it's not even a judgment about the information or the informer. Or it's it's there is just so much. And so uh the the image that was coming to mind for me was like a sieve when kids are wanting to find uh shells on the beach and they take a big scoop of sand and they have to shake it through, and then the treasures that are left are sitting on top of the sieve. And I think that given the the noise and the amount of just sand on the beach, as the the analogy for information that's out there, there's so many people who are all experts, they're all coaches, they've all experienced something and they want to help. I'm getting more requests to share my space and time. Like people are wanting to be guests on the podcast, and I can feel in such a visceral way what feels like a yes and what feels like a no. And I got an ask that was so clearly a no. This person was positioning themselves to be an expert, and their expert takeaways was absolutely the thing my listeners needed. I could tell also weren't keyed in or to tuned in at all to who my audience is and what I'm here to talk about. But all that to say is that there is a space for everyone. I do believe that, even if it's not a space for me and my show, there's a space for everyone. But I think as a consumer of content, as a consumer of information, as a consumer in the world, I want to be more discerning about what I'm consuming and what I'm taking in. But to go back to intention, if I'm approaching any project, growth edge, self-help process, therapeutic process, if my intention going in is that I am not enough, I am inherently flawed, there is something wrong with me, and this has the answer I need, that it's usually what leaves me feeling like I'm spiraling or anxious or success is just out of reach. The intention, if it's grounded in something closer to a more loving place, I know that sounds very vague and kind of wishy-washy, but that the intention if I'm wanting to grow, if I'm wanting to be the best version of me, not a different version of me, but the best version of me, the most grounded, the most present, the most informed, then the information that I'm seeking or the way that I'm approaching seeking help, it's there to inform me, to become the best version of me. And then it just feels like a thread being woven into my tapestry. All of the overfunctioning that lead to underfunctioning behaviors that have never worked for me come raging to the surface when I'm coming from I'm not enough and I need this thing to be enough. If it's ever coming from that place, it will never lead me to a better. That's not where my washboard abs are. That's not where that's not where my perfect gut health that explains so much. Yeah. Oh my gosh. If I if I'm coming from a place of I'm not enough and this person, this process, this thing has the answer. If I just act like this person, then I will be. That's I'll what I'll have is like maybe a really anxious, false sense of productivity for maybe two days, three days, and then I wig out and then I underfunction and will re-watch Gilmore girls. Or and not there's not a judgment of watching Gilmore girls, but like I'll go back to comfort because I was approaching reinvention in such a not holistic in the past when I have done this very thing. That's I'll I'll drive myself into the ground trying to be someone I'm not and adopt a process that doesn't fit me. And then I'll all my comfort seeking behavior usually involves like buying some version of like a loose-knit cream color sweater and then watching a comfort TV show. And my comfort shows are the office, parks and recreation, Ted Lasso, Brooklyn 99, like but and or Gilmore Girls, I'll go back down at least for a season or two or three, I'll rewatch them. It just that's just what I do. I'm like, oh, that didn't feel good. And then I'm right back into my my little comfort pit.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

I'm curious when between yourself and then just observations in your, you know, as in your career as a professional who helps lots of people with this, as I assume this is pretty common in today's day of age that people are going through this experience. What I have found is that same experience that you're talking about, where I'll dive into something and it feels very like hardly breathing, honestly, or like it's so intense, it's overdrive. And then it spirals because it's not actually sustainable and the nervous system feels totally habits or you know, those things that I'm that I was doing before that I had decided I shouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Not only do I go back to them, but for a time I feel like it's on overdrive, like it's even more extreme for a while that I'm going back to that I was doing before I started this new path of, oh, if I just renovate this part of my life, I'm going to be so much happier and more fulfilled. Is that a normal response for people? Or could that, or would you gauge that to be maybe a little bit more of the ADHD perspective where it's you return to it at an even more intense pace for comfort?

The Myth Of Normal

SPEAKER_04 16:55

You know, the the question of like what is me, what is my ADHD, what is me, what is my anxiety, what is me, what is my depression, what is me, what is my addiction? I I was spending a lot of time thinking about this actually. Yesterday I had a really hard time focusing. When I wasn't dialed in to something that I had to be dialed into, my mind was just like a balloon on a string. And and she was wandering. And one of the places she wandered to was this the DSM five, which is the the diagnostic criteria that any medical provider or mental health professional uses to diagnose mental health diagnosis as we know it today. And I here and here was the here was the the rambling thought. The rambling thought was at some point in time, everyone will fit the diagnostic criteria for something in this book. And by the way, the whole forward to the book is calling out all the flaws and the gaps. And so there will be a DSM 6, there will be a DSM seven in our lifetime. And so that there is this, there is a myth of normal. And the myth of normal is actually a book. It's a great book. I'll be a to be more transparent. It's a great book I haven't finished. It's so big, but it's on my shelf. I look at it every day. I haven't finished it. This, right? Sponging it. It's it's more like a for me, it's like a great point of reference. It's but it's such a comfort in that it speaks to the systematic flawed belief that there is a baseline of normal and that anything that skews beyond is outside of what normal is. But the here's the funny thing is absence of illness is not health. And so absence of a diagnosis is not normal. So, like thinking of it through the lens of okay, you you identify as someone who has ADHD or you've been diagnosed as some because I think ADHD is one of those things where I think a lot of people are now self-diagnosing.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

I don't necessarily have a hot take on that, other than definitely medically, lots of right, right of looking into it. But I think though, right, a lot of people identify.

SPEAKER_04 19:03

There's AI, WebMD, and there's probably a lot of reasons for that. But one, it's probably hard to get an appointment. Two, maybe not trusting the system or you know, all the things that could go into why it would be easier to turn to a phone to get an answer than a person, or at least it seems that way. But all that to say is that there the fact that you have been diagnosed with ADHD and I have not been diagnosed with ADHD, it's like based on a very, very thin, flawed paradigm. That would mean I'm in the camp of normal, and you are in the camp of outside of normal. And that's just not true. To go back to my my my Mylar balloon that I was floating in yesterday. It's just not true.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

Yesterday, shit day for me.

What “Normal” Measures In Medicine

SPEAKER_02 19:49

I went down the rabbit hole of totally not enough. Am I ever gonna have an entire day where I don't feel I feel like I am attached to a yo-yo or I'm the yo-yo, somebody else has the string, and I go in and out all day, and I don't know for how long. And am I ever going to get to a point that I can have a day that the whole day is pretty good, is pretty solid, without a big tank, without a big, you know, flip or something. And just I'm not gonna sorry, like it got to me really rough last night because I keep trying so hard for so long to just uh stay in that place. But for the sake of this episode, your mylar balloon actually led to what I think so because I haven't this conversation, I haven't been able to start it like the way I know that I was so comfortable starting it or before we ever did it. And so I feel like what you just touched on about this myth of normal, it's perfect for like it's not the only thing we need to talk about, but for the scope of when I'm sharing this with medical families, I think that addressed like if this conversation, maybe leaning into what does like how you can speak to that, this myth of normal. Like, as soon as you said that, I was like, Oh, you mean like what do you mean in absence of diagnosis doesn't mean normal? What do you mean that like I am abnormal? Because the world has always told me that I'm abnormal, that I don't fit, and I need to be somebody else to work within what fit of all the medical parents who they're told everything about them is abnormal, they're chill, and then the weight of your child is abnormal.

Self-Reclamation Over Self-Renovation

SPEAKER_04 21:29

Well, think about even what a norm is. So I think norm we conflate with an average. And okay, how is an average even calculated? Now, please, please, anybody listening who I got A's I got A's in math because I was good at memorizing, not because I'm good at math. Now I'm not bad at math. I'm not gonna I am, so you're okay. I'm not gonna shit on myself. No, I I'm not bad at it, it's just not my top strength. Okay, gonna practice. Beautifully said. Thank you. Beautifully said. Thank you. We take all of the data points, we add them together, and then we divide them by the number of data points. That's all that means. So what is the norm? Like I think we've associated value, being good. There's so many associations that we've made with norm when really what we might be talking about in terms of a study or a diagnosis is do you fit the diagnostic criteria? The diagnostic criteria that we put a number of researchers and scientists, did a bunch of studies, compiled the studies, did a meta-analysis. We hope most of the studies done on men, most of those men being college students because that was the access they had, the population they had access to. And um, we had to start somewhere. And I when I say we, I'm looping myself into like a mental health community. But I understand it has to start somewhere. Let's get wrong figured out so we can figure out what right is in terms of how we approach it. Like I don't want to shit on anything. This is where we are and what we have, but I think what I see in my clients and what I feel in myself is this sense that there is either a norm that we're falling below, or I think stretch to another extreme. Everything is about longevity and maximizing. It's not just about being healthy, like maybe oh, you thought you were healthy. Well, if you're not taking creatine, your fucking bones are turning to dust. You know, if you actually think about the term norm as a reference point, it's it's talking about an average. And even like the data set that the average was based on is a flawed data set. Mean who was studied, how long were they studied, how many people were studied, how many people started the study, finished the study. This is one of those, one of those few moments where, because I love living in the feeling space and I love getting all mushy gushy into the emotions, but this is one of those, I think, specific conversations where actually like putting the logic hat on and almost putting a researcher hat on can add so much grace. Because once you start looking through the DSM, which I'm not recommending people do, it's kind of boring. Um, but you realize, oh, at some point in all of our lives, we will all fit the criteria for at least one thing, or almost all the criteria for one thing, because the population that I work with are people who are really, really high functioning, under functioning. So, like they're showing up for the world, their kids are getting to all their dates, their bank account is in a comfortable range, they definitely are living with some level of privilege. By all accounts, on the outside, they are hitting the mark. And yet in our sessions, they feel like they're either low-level drowning, their life is a dumpster fire, their health isn't what they wanted to be, their self-talk is telling them that it would be just easier if they didn't exist. It's a dark, heavy, hard mental space. It's like quoting Elizabeth Gilbert, their mind is a bad neighborhood they wandered into and they don't feel safe in, but it's their mind. And so they're carrying it everywhere. And so all that to say is because, like, where's the hope now? Where's the hope after all that? Is that uh I think that the measuring stick that we're ruling our success and failure by is flawed. And 100%. Yeah. And so almost like starting from scratch, I am a part of a system. And I am part, I'm a messy imperfect person, a part of a messy imperfect system. And I want to find the way forward that feels best to me that doesn't cause harm to others. I think if that's like a starting point, how can I feel good and move forward in a way that isn't causing harm to other people? Can we yeah, can we really quick?

SPEAKER_02 25:54

I want to unpack something that your information you provided about what does norm actually mean when which is something that is actually a huge part of being in the medical life. And we don't often stop and think about what norm is actually indicative of from the science, from the research, from all the people who defined what norm means by the time it makes it to you as a patient or as the parent of a patient. And where I started to feel a flicker of that hope again was by normalizing the fact that norms are not the essence of hitting the mark of being good. It's that the empowerment can come from what I origin I think I originally reached out to you about, which was through a text message, Danielle, was can we have a conversation about what is the difference between self-renovation and self-reclamation? What is the difference between spending your time and your efforts and your focus on trying to consume and then apply to yourself from external sources to quote unquote feel your best, be your best, as opposed to reclaiming, maybe it's remembering tuning into yourself to let that inform what is right for you. Because one of the things that is very common. So let's say something as simple as lab. If you get a physical, you've had labs, labs are very common with many medical conditions, and it's so common for them to say, Well, you fell within the nor the range of norm.

SPEAKER_04 27:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

But one of the things that we talk about so often to parents, and it's so easy to do when you're thinking about it for your children, is that kind of that gut feeling, that intuition that your child might be falling within the acceptable range of norm, but let's say they're at the low end of that normal range, and you just know that is not enough for my child. We need to push this further because there are countless stories where I've experienced them, but I've talked to so many people who have said, look, I just think I'm not comfortable settling with that as our bar. Yes, it's within the accepted medical realm of norm, but I don't think it's actually helping my child feel as well as they could. So I want to push on this further, explore those options.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Not every time, but there certainly are those cases. And so thinking about it that way, it makes much more sense to me that, of course, normal is not something to chase. No and what are we defining normal by? Right. Almost like how we feel.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

Yeah, it's information and looking at it like information, because in that way, it becomes an ally, not an obstacle. It becomes not something to override or overcome. Because even if you think about, for example, the the language we use around treating anxiety, for example, we have to combat anxiety, we have to fight, we have to resist. There's all of that language. If we were to really get still, if I could lead everyone through like a mindfulness exercise, a breath exercise, we get really still really safe. And then I start saying things like, resist, fight, go to war, like you are gonna start feeling this tightening and constricting. The very energy of the approach to treat is inducing the thing we're trying to treat. And so I can't tell you how many people I work with who are either experiencing anxiety or been diagnosed with anxiety. And then we look back, like, well, where are those thoughts? Where are those thoughts coming from? They're coming from a real place a lot of the time, not every time, not every time, but a lot of times what we're giving a clinical name to is a, I'll say, a healthy response that is correlated to something that they're experiencing in life. And that's information to look at what we could help you do to cultivate resiliency? What could we do to help you get a little bit more curious? What can we do to help you support yourself better? What outside supports chemically community, what systems could we help you put in place to feel more supported in that experience? But to say that we're gonna combat it or fight it because you're a problem, that just feels overcome it is one that he hears so often. Where's the BCAD line marker that says, I had this, now I no longer have this? It's similar to like people who survive like a cancer treatment. You're in remission. Like no one who is in recovery for an addiction, like you didn't beat your addiction. It's one day at a time, borrowing AA language. So to go back to what you're saying, there is this is the information that this test provides. The information of this test is that your child is within this range, on the low end of this range. But you can choose what to do with that information and how you want that to inform their treatment plan moving forward. It's like my internal GPS system, like an external piece of technology can tell me how to get from point A to point B. But I am the one who knows where I want to go. So I can't, if I just let my GPS tell me where to go without me first setting the intent, I want to get to San Diego or I want to get to Washington, DC. Then the tool that's gonna help me figure out how to get there, either in the most scenic route or the most direct route, that's where the tool becomes a helpful tool. But I think sometimes we put the tool before we're clear inside. And then we've ended up in a place we never wanted to be.

Questions That Break The Spiral

SPEAKER_02 32:16

I feel a call to go a little towards the practical, what are really just basic? Maybe it's even questions we can ask ourselves that anybody could ask themselves about what is driving a feeling, what is actually driving your action to seek external information, you know, opinions about a change you should be making in your life? Because I felt maybe more caught when you talked about are you seeking that information, those tools, those processes from other people because you've identified that something would be a healthy change for you, or are you doing it from a place of feeling not enough, less than broken, incorrect? And I have struggled a lot of the time in my life operating from a place of I'm not quite, I'm not right. I'm not, and so what I'd love to hear from you are what are some questions that you could encourage people if you're feeling anything along those lines of I, you know, just I need, I mean, sometimes it's just as broad as I just I need to get my my shit together, I need to get my life in order, or I'm I'm feeling I'm failing everywhere. You know, my house is a mess, my kids are always late, I'm always behind on getting the bills, and the stack of mail is to turn into a new mountain range. Like what are and so we're coming at it from that place, and then we start it's like this grab bag exercise of surely somebody out there knows better than I do because everything they're presenting to me looks like what I think I need in order to feel good about myself.

Awareness, Acknowledge, Act

SPEAKER_04 34:07

Well, sometimes like adopting somebody else's style helps you figure out what actually is and isn't working for you. So let's say you're in that place because some people's houses burn down and they have to start from scratch. If someone's life is in a place where they're like, it's all come down and I've got to rebuild. You know, I'm gonna live in an Airbnb. It's I don't know if I would have picked this picture, but I'm living in a space with this picture on the wall. Like, huh? What does this life feel like with this furniture in it? I think the the process I like to go back to can apply like the conditioner bottle instructions, just rinse, repeat. The process is the same. Become aware of how you feel. And this awareness, what I would add, like the caveat asterisks I would add, is really start to pay attention to what feels good and what doesn't feel good. And I'm using that general language because comfort might feel different than pleasure, safety might feel different than excited, feeling activated and encouraged. There's a lot of nuance with that, but start general. So becoming increasingly aware of, and that requires presence, but being aware of how am I feeling when I do this? And I love to add a like a little note to clients take in all the data, right? How do you feel in anticipation of doing this thing? How do you feel when you're actually in the act of doing the thing? How do you feel when you're done? Like, for example, I always find reasons to not exercise before I exercise. Rarely, when I'm in the process of exercising, am I loving what I'm doing? But afterwards, I'm like, you know what? That was good. That was nice. And so there's lots of things that could fit that boat. But so all of those before, during, and after, those are really good. That's good data to take in. Becoming aware with how you feel, moment to moment to moment, and paying attention to what feels good and what doesn't feel good. And just taking in that information without trying to decide what to do with it yet. Because the more acquainted, the more familiar you are with the experience in your body, the embodiment of feeling good, feeling safe, feeling creatively charged, that warmth of leaning in and inviting into something the safety and grounded feeling of being in the presence with someone that your nervous system just really likes being around. That's all information. And the more presence, the more awareness and the more practice you bring around that, the more highly attuned you will be to when you are in the presence of something that is not that. When you're in the presence of somebody who is not in line with that. When you're like, oh, that person is not safe. That person does not have my best interest at heart. Or my people pleaser said yes, asked questions later version of me said yes to this activity, and now I'm here and I don't want to be here. So tuning the instrument of awareness of what feels good, what doesn't feel good. So that's step one. That could become a daily journal practice. That could become, I mean, something Martha Beck did that I love is she she committed to for a year. Every hour she would check in with herself and ask herself if she was lying. Am I lying right now? Am I saying I'm fine when I'm not fine? Am I laughing along to a joke that's not fun? Like just all the different ways, but that is something I like. Sometimes in a day I'll set an alarm and my alarm maybe isn't every hour, it might be every like, I don't know, three. And I'll just check in because my overfunctioner will take over. And before I realize it, I've spiraled. So just building in those little breaks gives me an opportunity to get intentional and check in with how is my body? Is it hydrated? Is it fed? Does it need to eliminate something? When's the last time I've seen a human? Am I scrolling on my phone? And when I really don't want to be doing that. So to go back to awareness, does this feel good? Does this not feel good? And then the second step is to acknowledge that somehow. So either say it to a human, put it in a voice note, write it in a journal, write it on a post-it note, or just simply say it out loud. Or you can also think it to yourself. But stake the claim, stake the flag. This is how I'm feeling, this is feeling good, this isn't feeling good. And that might even look like in real time, this isn't feeling good, and I don't know what to do about it yet. Or this is feeling uncomfortable, but I'm not sure what that means. That's okay. But just acknowledge it somewhere, somehow. And then the third and final caveat is to let that awareness that you have acknowledged inform your next millisecond step. And what I believe into the marrow of my bones is that that process is your internal GPS, your internal guidance system leading you somewhere that you want to be. Right. So, I mean, the most simply said, awareness, acknowledge, and act. But I think in practice, there's a lot of nuance to that.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

Right. Maybe that might be something too that Daniel, I could circle back around to you that if you have you already have some episodes that you've recorded in the past, or if you have some processes that you like to share with others as examples that people could reference. And it's one of those things I think you try it on and see what fits for you.

SPEAKER_04 39:18

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Finding Peace And Warm Water

SPEAKER_02 39:20

It literally like the process you're talking about is very much the same process you would use to figure out which style of moving forward with this works. Now, thought that kind of surfaced as you were talking through that. When I know that I I've experienced when there are a lot of things going on in my life, and sometimes I guess it's not always about quantity, but we'll just say the weight of certain things going on that I don't have control over. If I look at my life, I probably can pinpoint there are times where I leaned more heavily into what can I change about myself. And it's almost this sense of trying to find some sort of control or something I can influence to feel more safe. There haven't been too many times where I've probably actually resulted in that, where it's actually, you know, led to me feeling sturdier and and feeling better. And one of the things that I've realized that I don't typically include in my process before I start something is identifying with what does feeling really good or being my best actually mean to me. Not when I've been doing well with this at times, off and on over the past year. A word that I never put much weight into prior to that, but now I'm don't know how I missed it, is this idea of or this concept of feeling peace that it's not always about achievement, not about it's just like yesterday I had a really just rough and tough emotional day. My internal neighborhood was brawling all around me, and I was at the center of every fight. And but there was this moment where for some reason it was like my energy kind of spiked, and I felt myself feel more grounded. And I sat down at the coffee table with my kids who were coloring some pictures, and I sat down and I just worked on some note cards I needed to make just next to them, and they kept showing me their pictures as they were coloring them. And so I had this moment of I was like, I just feel so good right now. Like this is what feeling peace feels like getting some things done, but I'm not missing what's happening in front of me. And yet, so often I make these decisions to try this new method of food or like an overhaul on food on lunches and exercise and housekeeping and schedule and meditation and all these things. And the reality is is like trying to grab all of these things at the same time, there is no logical path to finding peace. And so I guess where I'd like to toss this back to you is just as a question of what is is there just a really simple question? I liked the one about am I lying to myself? Like it was very confronting, but it was also like so clear. And I feel like however you need to receive that, you will. But is there a question that we, you know, as listeners who like I'm thinking about, yes, I work with so many families who are entrenched in the medical realities of day-to-day life, medications, appointments, therapies, doctor visits, all this stuff and whatnot, but still feeling desperate to find a way to just feel good.

unknown 43:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

What is just this starting question that can maybe help shift from being pushed by almost a panic mode to operating with one that's more maybe just a little softer, kinder, can help us actually operate from through a lens of clarity in what might be good for us instead of that desperation.

SPEAKER_04 43:34

Yeah. Where is the water warm would be one question. You ask for gentle. Where is the water warm? Not as what is required, what's needed, what has to get done, what's next on the list, where is the water warm? And the other is wherever you can access creativity. You will I'll say through just the function of your brain. I just repurchased a giant pack of origami paper because that that's something that like I can't help when I talk about it, I smile. And kids are inherently creative. I mean, I I've got a two-year-old and a four and a half year old tumbling around my feet constantly, and they're either making a mess or making art or making messy art, but they are constantly making. And we come into the world as makers. And I think in the busy commotion of life, you know, it's so easy to the world doesn't need one more doodle in a notebook. But I would argue as your advocate and as as your friend from afar in podcast land, yes, we fucking do. We need your doodles, we need your chicken scratch, we need your bad pottery, we need your painted mugs. Because creativity allows you to tap into, I'll just say like the power center of your brain that is dormant and sleeping and hibernating when you are living in fight or flight. The parasympathetic nervous system, the places in your brain that you really want an overdrive to tackle a hard problem, you'll have greater access to them quicker if you let yourself create for a couple of minutes. And I'm saying a couple of minutes because I'm talking to my people who are living in a space where they are convinced they have no time. I'm quoting a quote of a quote, but just bear with me because I don't know who to give credit to. But that when somebody says they don't have time to meditate for 30 minutes, I know they need three hours. And I think that's true of the people I work with who have the highest rates of burnout and like spiraling anxiety and depression, their imagination and their play have atrophied. And that when they find a way to commune with that part of them, things have a way of level setting. And I don't want to say like magic, but for the sake of conversation, it is kind of like magic. Because we're not machines. There's fantastic work being done by a woman named Trisha Hirsay. She's created something called the Nap Ministry. And she she talks about how rest is a form of resistance around capitalism and racism that treated human bodies like machines. And so that when you reclaim rest, you are reclaiming, particularly black and brown bodies, but you are reclaiming what was stolen from you. Those systems that were built on treating people like machines are a big part of what's being pumped into the air. It's like the fumes getting pumped from the exhaust pipe of produce, achieve, strive. It's all about optimizing. You know, it's not just about getting this thing done, but it's getting more things done quicker. And we have to get more things done so that we can do more things. And then it's just like a hungry hippo. You're like, and you got 30 things done, but you know what you didn't do? That 31st thing. So you get an F for the day. And you're like, no. And then you're like, where's my wine? Where's my comfort TV? Where's my chocolate bar? And my, you know, giant thunder blanket that just makes me feel like I can like I can hide from everything. And it just, but where is the water warm? Because the great thing about your body, your mind can do double dutch and it can do all kinds of flips and tricks, but your body will not lie to you. If your body's tired, now you can pump a lot of caffeine into it. You could take a beta blocker to not be scared. Like, there's all kinds of things you can do to like, but eventually your body's gonna catch up with you. And she's gonna say, Girl, girl, we need some water. Yeah, we need some food. We need to sleep. Like the needs of the body will let themselves be known to you eventually. And so if you can bring your body along with you, not treating it like my meat suits getting in the way of my productivity. Damn it, if I did need so much sleep, I could get so much more done.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Right.

SPEAKER_04 48:21

But to treat her like a friend, and she's trying to tell you something. And like a little bit of play, truly, like the way that our kids move through the world, if we could operate a little bit more like that, we would be so much better off in terms of mental and emotional health. Like they want to cuddle, they want to color, they want to play.

SPEAKER_02 48:40

They're they want to giggle things. Yeah. Thinking about like, so I am a highly creative person, but sometimes I'll admit, like, I'll feel like I will feel just frozen or just the idea of creating it feels so out of reach. So that made sense to me when you said it's almost like that can go dormant when you're trying to juggle so many other pressures that we've deemed life or death, no matter what the circumstances, that fight or flight, I suppose. But I'll be asking that's probably been one of my big biggest breakthroughs over the past year was intentionally incorporating comedy into my life, opportunities for humor, trying to not take things so serious and really realizing how normal humor is throughout life.

SPEAKER_04 49:32

What just for anybody who thinks creativity isn't a worthy pursuit or it's not necessary, or like the the busyness and the and the burdens of life are too loud, that is what artists, artists are truth tellers. There's like the events of the world, and we need those, we need those warriors to do the investigative reporting, but there's also the truths of the inner world. And that's where the poets and the Maya Angelos or like the Victor Frankel, like people who have experienced the harshness and the pain of life, who it's they double down. If you really like just any artist that inspires you, it could even be, you know, uh someone who cooks or bakes. Like, I mean, sometimes writing and talking are so much of my day-to-day work that it, yes, it can be creatively fulfilling, but sometimes I'll associate it more with work than with play. But like I'll let my daughter will make a mess in the kitchen together. And that is wildly fulfilling and fun. One, because I'm not a good baker. So it's like I can take the pressure off of trying to be good at something. Cause I'm like, I just I don't like to measure. I'm like, oh, we'll figure it out. Sometimes it works and sometimes it really super doesn't work. But I think that there are for anyone who thinks that there's not time or there's a more worthy cause, like there are there's a whole history of people making art in spite of the challenges of the day, in spite of the horrors of the day. And there's a reason why that art resonates, why it's still a standing the test of time. And there's a reason why people are still making things. It's not about being an artist. It's about one, if you are creating, the anxious part of your brain isn't functioning. They can't function at the same time. I think the what's sort of people making gratitude lists and gratitude journals, I think that's that's sort of twisted to almost be kind of like a therapy joke or like a self-help joke online. But I get why, but because it can also dip into toxic positivity. But the the root and where that originated is that when you are in a state of gratitude, like you can't be in rage and ingratitude. They can't, those can't occupy the same space in your mind at the same time, or you can't be in despair and gratitude at the same time. So trying to find ways to activate those muscles is also a great way to deactivate the functions of the mind that are maybe hurting you. And so creativity, in terms of if you were feeling like you were hyper-focused, hyper-vigilant, overfunctioning, anxious, and stressed, sitting down for like 20 minutes at a table with your kids and drawing on a note card, that is a great way in. Because it's hard to know, to know where the water's warm if everything feels like it's on fire.

SPEAKER_02 52:21

You're like, it's all just too hot. You know? That's very true. This morning, even so my mom was helping get the kids ready for school. It was very helpful. She turned on a playlist that she has, which is kind of it's like her happy dance music. And I mean, I definitely wasn't feeling it at first, but I could see my kids feeling it. And then it just, you know, just absorbed over time until I'm not saying it turned my day around, but I felt my body feeling less, I could feel it differently in my body that I wasn't as tense or braced for every next moment. Yeah. That creativity doesn't think it can be utilized by leaning into others' creativity, to listening to your favorite music, especially something that's upbeat and catchy. And sometimes when I listen to something that's really opposite of how I'm feeling, it it can be almost jarring, but sometimes I need that jarring to break me out of despair that I'm just stuck in. Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_04 53:26

Lately I can't stay sad and listen to Bad Bunny. If Bad Bunny's on, if Bad Bunny's on, I'm like, oh, there's a party happening somewhere. No, yeah.

Using Inspiration Without Self-Judgment

SPEAKER_02 53:37

There's so many things that I've taken from this conversation that anybody listening to it could just pick one or two of them and spend some time just letting it mall around in your mind what stood out to you. Was it the asking yourself if you're lying in a moment? Was it ordering a book of origami paper because all of a sudden you're like, never thought of that, but I felt myself get excited and intrigued by that idea.

SPEAKER_04 54:04

Like that's where the water's warm. If something goes, oh, and I think in the best sense of the word, as you're doing this recap, that is where looking outside of you for information can be helpful. I like to think of other people's lives. If I'm feeling any sense of lack or if I'm feeling like there's room for more, if I see someone who has something I want, and I don't just mean in a jealous way or an envious way, but like, God, that would be so nice to have a little bit more of whatever that is. That is information. That's my internal guidance, my internal GPS tuning me to that. Oh, look at that bright lip that she's wearing in this interview. I need to go throw on a bright lip. That would really brighten my day too. Like that, that is in the best sense of how we can extend and reach and admire and learn from one another. It's not just about measuring against and feeling bad, but other people can be teachers in that way too, simply just by existing in the world. And we get to see, oh, I would love a little bit more of that in my life. I'd love a little bit more color.

SPEAKER_02 55:08

You just create like all of a sudden everything just clicked for me in the most simple visual way of what you were just describing. Is so like even your lip example, like the lipstick example, the difference that I heard is I think it's one thing to think I must buy, like what follow the link of what type of lipstick they're wearing, and and only that type, only that brand and that exact color is the kind that I need to feel good, as opposed to, like you said, observing it and thinking, oh, I like that. I just adding some color is something that obviously makes me, you know, I feel good about. And then when I thought about it that way, it kind of all of a sudden helped me take a step back from not needing to judge myself for observing what other people are doing that looks really good. It's almost like so, like one of the things I love to go to is we have a restoration hardware, or is that restoration hardware, the beautiful home decor store. They here in Indianapolis move their whole gallery basically of all of their line into this incredible estate here. So you're actually seeing it's not in a store, it's literally in this beautiful, stunning estate. And I remember when it opened going to tour it, because that's what it felt more like tour. And I wasn't there to buy$20,000 couches, not by any means, but I remember seeing a couple of the bedrooms had these tall mercury metal lamps, and then right behind them were these vertical mirrors. And I just remember really liking how the light reflected on the mirror. So then that was something I decided to do from like the home goods. And it's just clicking to me that maybe the way to utilize information that's coming in is to first, I guess, get back to where the water is warm. What why am I even feeling pulled towards what this person is seeing? Right. Where is that that magnetic pull? Where is it coming from? Then what's the most practical bit of this that makes sense for my life, not person who I now need to be?

SPEAKER_04 57:25

Well, what yeah, going back to I'm aware that I'm attracted to your bright lip color. I'm that's information. I'm aware that I'm seeing it and I and I'm loving what I'm seeing. And then I can acknowledge, oh, I want more color in my life. And then the tiny little action step I take can be as simple as I could change my shirt. I mean, I could add color anywhere, but I think it's that that is in real time the process of becoming aware of what you're feeling, acknowledging what you're feeling in some way, saying it out loud, writing it down, saying it to a person. I did everything but write it down. And then the very next little action step I could take that is accessible to me now, that doesn't feel like project, that doesn't feel like work, is just going into my bathroom and I hang up with this call and just go swipe, swipe.

SPEAKER_02 58:09

So it's asking, what is it I like about what I'm seeing or observing as opposed to what is this person doing right compared to what am I doing wrong compared to what this person is doing right? And I don't think it's really easy to lose the awareness of how we're processing our that observation experience. It's if you find yourself thinking, that's right, and what I'm doing is wrong, maybe take a moment and take a breath, and then just try asking, okay, what is it that I like what this person is is sharing or showing?

SPEAKER_04 58:49

It can also be helpful to practice this on something that you don't typically judge yourself on. But like if we were going to Baskin Robbins together, if I wanted pistachio and chocolate and you wanted strawberry and vanilla, I'm not it's less likely that we are gonna judge one another's ice cream choices. What we like and what we don't like can some it may seem reductive, but I like this, I don't like this. And what you like is informing what you want your life to look like, what you want your relationships to feel like. Like that is the internal guidance. I want to travel to this place. Well, what do I need to do to get there? I need to plug in the address, I need to book some time. I don't want to get too reductive and oversimplify, but I do think sometimes, at least where we're when we're getting started, it's got to feel simple to feel like you can even approach it. And even thinking about something that tastes good to you, like your favorite coffee order, your body is gonna have a response to that. That's where I can we can choose, we can return back to our bodies and treat them like friends, like, oh, my body is really lighting up when it sees this, or it's feeling really relaxed and settled when it's hearing this, and just trusting those sensations, not trusting in the sense of like it's telling me what to do, but I can trust that it's telling me something. And then how you interpret that something into the next action steps, that that's where we can bring in our beautiful brains into the equation.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:17

All right. Well, Danielle, I think you've given so many great threads, is what I feel like. There's just multiple threads that each of us can pull on what feels right, what lit us up, what felt intriguing. And I I feel a lot more hopeful about it not being such a challenge to alter how I go about interacting with all the information that is available. That it doesn't have to always feel like such a such an attack or such a competition for my mindset, for my the way I see myself, the way I feel about myself. I feel like you've helped us turn the table to look at it from the perspective of how does this feel for me. Yeah.

Making Life Easier With One Reframe

SPEAKER_04 1:01:13

Like I think sometimes even an unconscious statement that can really lead into a lot of self harm is it shouldn't be this hard. It shouldn't feel this way. It should be easier. It just shouldn't be this hard. Where again, based on what? According to who, it shouldn't. I think rather than phrases like it shouldn't be this hard, or I should be able to do more. If we switch it to just a slightly more compassionate leaning lens of I would love for this to feel a little easier, what could that be? What might that look like in this moment? It really can be just a simple language shift that doesn't change I really like that. It doesn't change the problem, but it does open up access to a different way of approaching the problem because then you feel a little bit more curious.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:05

Oh my goodness, you drove at home. I believe that there are times when there are problem solvers and there are solution seekers. When you're in a problem solving mode, that's when you are looking for what's wrong, what's out of place, what needs fix, where's the hole? When I'm in a solution-seeking mindset, the difference I feel is that I know that there's an answer. But this journey, so this journey is just about finding the right answer for me for this situation. And I feel less anxiety, less pressure, less, you know, it's just a more positive experience going through that mindset as opposed to solve this problem. Yeah. And so I love it when you just literally that tiny little reframe of in itself about all the meal prepping for the kids for the week, which I don't do because I continue to think this is just too hard for me. So then I layer on the judgment and the shame. But when you said, What's one thing that I could, what's one little thing I could do to make this just a little bit easier? Well, as soon as I heard that, even in my body was like, that's no big deal. Just one thing for all kinds of make this feel a little bit easier. I mean, my goodness, have your containers ready.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:19

Like yeah, or well, then action, then the actual action steps become reveal themselves to you almost like magic.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:25

It's just yeah, it What's more creative too, instead of what's one thing, instead of as soon as judgment and shame take the mic, yeah, it's all over.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:40

When someone's in a should place and then they apply the question, why? It shouldn't be this hard. Why is it so hard for me? Girl, it is over before it started. It's like you were, it's not gonna lead you anywhere you want to be. It shouldn't be this hard, it should be easier. I should be further along by now. Why are they and why am I not? Why is this so hard? Like, ugh. That combo is like the one-two punch. It's if if we were in boxing, now that's the knockout punch that will just keep you on your couch. And yeah. And so, oh my goodness, just a slightly more compassionate reframe. And like this feels really because sometimes it feels hard because it is hard. Right. What is one thing I could do to simplify this in this moment? Like, what do I have the bandwidth to do? I'll give you one last real-time example. I was in so much brain fog yesterday. Both my kids have, they each have like three different activities going on, all on a Friday in March, which it's like my the math was like, wait, that's every Friday and March. Every Friday in March. My kids had activities in separate places all on Fridays, and I couldn't figure out when, how am I supposed to, where am I supposed to. I couldn't figure any of it out. It was like, and I I just I was like, this is too hard. And I was trying to coordinate things, and I I need to hand this over to somebody else who isn't in my brain, which is anybody. So I just slid the calendar to my husband and I was like, I I don't know what to do with this. And he, of course, was like, what do you mean you don't know what to do with this? I'm like, I can't figure out what is happening and when and where where where do I need to be? Where do you need to be? You know what he said, stupid, brilliant man? He was like, Where do you want to be? And I was like, How dare you? How dare you say the right thing to me right now? How dare you? He was like, Well, where do you want to be? And I was like, Well, I don't want to do these two activities on this list. And he was like, Well, do you think that's why it's so hard? Because you're trying to make yourself do something you don't want to do. And I was like, get out, get out, get out of this kitchen. But yeah, it was too so I had brain fog, I was tired, it was the end of the day, it was too much to coordinate. And the truth that I wasn't allowing myself to admit was that I didn't want to do half of those things. Yeah. Which meant I wasn't gonna show up to a couple of the things that my kids were doing. I was like, oh my God, does that make me a bad mom? But all I had access to in the moment was I'm feeling confused. I need to acknowledge this is too hard. I'm gonna ask for help. I just wasn't prepared for the help that I got. Because it was like it was too emotionally mature. I thought I was gonna get help on scheduling, not at not asking me, what do you mean what do I want to do? It's not as easy as that. And then I'm like, oh, record scratch. It is as simple as I want to do. So once I but once I was honest about the things I actually wanted to show up for and what I didn't, I was able to call in better help. And I was very mad slash grateful at my husband.

Final Takeaways And Hopeful Close

SPEAKER_02 1:06:31

That is a perfect example. I loved that. So well, Danielle, thank you so much. This is I love this conversation, just went where it needed to. And I'm really looking forward to actually going back and listening to this one. I already know now. I'm just gonna say whoever's listened to this, this is gonna be one that I'm gonna recommend. Give it some time and then go back and listen to it again. Sometimes there are episodes that you're just not gonna absorb everything at once because there's a lot of just really good strong truths, I feel like that you delivered to us, but to as somebody who has been so resistant, not intentionally, it's just I think you maybe it's just nervous system, all the things you know, I haven't felt like I've had access to these truths that you've painted so clearly. I think one of the best things I can do is listen to it and then give myself some time to let those sink in.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:31

And then listen again when I can tell that I'm in a slightly just a little bit less agitated state. And that's just me being really upfront and honest. Yeah. And then see what comes through again. But uh, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:51

You are capable, you are equipped, and you are not alone. Together, we can do hard things for our children.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:58

If this episode connected with you and you want to hear more, be sure to hit the subscribe button.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:03

We would also love to learn about your personal journey and how we can support you. Reach out to us at contact at charlotte's hope foundation.org. And last but not least, if you know of someone who could benefit from this podcast, please share.