Ep. 25. Joe Zagorski. FB page NFLinthe1970s host and NFL author extraordinaire

https://www.joezagorskiwriter.com/

https://www.facebook.com/NFLinthe1970s/

https://a.co/d/07KGQmlf

https://player.captivate.fm/episode/2f31e79e-a876-4774-b8b7-a54d9b43be01

# Uncovering the NFL in the 1970s: A Conversation with Joe Zagorski

Discover insights from Joe Zagorski on the NFL in the 1970s, including his writing journey and unique perspectives on iconic players and moments.

In this podcast, we dive into the fascinating world of the NFL during the 1970s through an engaging conversation with Joe Zagorski, an esteemed author and historian of this legendary era. We’ll explore his insights, the writing process behind his books, and some of the pivotal moments that defined the decade.

## About Joe Zagorski
Joe Zagorski is a renowned author and NFL historian, known for his extensive research and writing on the NFL in the 1970s. He has authored six books on the subject, engaging fans with his deep dive into the history of professional football. As a member of the Pro Football Writers of America and the Pro Football Researchers Association, Joe brings a wealth of knowledge and passion for the game.

## The Origin of Joe’s Passion for the NFL
Zagorski's love for football began in third grade, and he has carried that enthusiasm throughout his life. His desire to document the 1970s NFL era led him to write a comprehensive book on the decade, despite the challenges of finding unique angles in a well-documented history. 

### The Journey to Writing a Book
Joe explained that his writing process involves researching topics that have not been thoroughly covered. He emphasizes the importance of originality, stating, "I try to write about things that nobody else had previously written about." This dedication to uncovering untold stories is what makes his work so compelling.

## Insights on the Writing Process
Writing about historical figures and events comes with its own set of challenges. Joe shared that the most intriguing part of his writing journey is the research phase, where he uncovers new gems and information that enhances the narrative.  

### Challenges in Publishing
Finding a publisher can be daunting. Joe likened the process to being a salesman, needing to pitch his ideas effectively. This salesmanship aspect is crucial when trying to convince publishers to take on projects related to historical topics.

## The NFL in the 1970s: Key Moments and Players
During our conversation, Joe highlighted some crucial moments and figures from the 1970s, including O.J. Simpson's record-breaking season. His book focuses on Simpson's remarkable achievement of rushing for over 2000 yards in a single season, a feat that was both celebrated and critiqued by fans and players alike.

### The Legacy of Larry Little
One of the standout figures in Zagorski's works is Larry Little, a Hall of Fame guard whose impact on the Dolphins' running game was profound. Joe describes Little as one of the fastest offensive linemen of his time, combining speed and power in a way that transformed the Dolphins' offense.

## Key Takeaways
- Joe Zagorski's passion for the NFL began in childhood, leading him to document the history of the 1970s.
- The writing process involves extensive research and overcoming publishing hurdles.
- Unique angles and untold stories are central to Joe's approach in his writing.

To dive deeper into Joe's insights and the history of the NFL, be sure to check out his latest book, "From the Outhouse to the Penthouse: The Football Journey of Pro Football Hall of Famer Larry Little" available on Amazon.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome and thank you for joining us today on the Heroes and Icons podcast. I'm your host, Greg Randolph. Please find me on the X at Greg Heroes Icons, or you can also find me on the World Wide Web, Heroes and Icons Podcast.com. I'm also a featured podcaster on HoustonCity Beat.com, and that's a cool website for happenings and local businesses in the Houston area. So please check them out. Would you do me a favor? If you're enjoying the show, would you please not only take a quick minute to review it on your favorite podcast platform, but also share it with a friend or two? Thank you in advance for doing that. We have a very special guest today. If you're a fan of pro football, you will greatly appreciate my next guest. He is the host for his own show, which is the highly acclaimed Facebook page, The NFL in the 1970s. He has authored six books on the same era, which you can also find on Amazon. If you're not familiar with Joe's Facebook page, he engages the most intriguing angles of the NFL in the 1970s. And he also offers a chance for comments and opinions. I highly recommend not only Joe's page, but his incredible collection of six authored books, which are not only entertaining, but informative and educational as well. He is a member of the Pro Football Writers of America, which to me is just as cool as being an accomplished author. And he is also a member of the Pro Football Researchers Association. His sixth and latest book, which I'm currently reading and very much enjoying, by the way. And I have it. Oh, here it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

I got it right here, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Show everybody the book. There we go. So I was saying that's the one I'm currently reading and very much enjoying. And it's it's titled From the Outhouse to the Penthouse: The Football Journey of Pro Football Hall of Famer, Larry Little. And of course, that can be purchased at Amazon, etc. My guest today is Joe Zagorski. It is a tremendous honor to have you on the show with me. How are you doing, Joe?

SPEAKER_01 2:04

I'm doing fine, Greg. Great to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

No, you got it. Thank you. So, Joe, when did your interest in the subject of the NFL of the 1970s begin?

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Gosh, I was in third grade. That's a long way ago. Back in 1971, I started watching pro football. And just it was part of my childhood that I always loved. And later on, as I got older, you know, I hearkened back to that era and thought, yeah, wouldn't it be nice to write a book about that whole decade? And even though some had been written about it, I wanted to write a really, really comprehensive book about the decade. So I did. And then that it stemmed to other different subjects in pro football.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Okay. Very good. I wanted to ask you this. So when you begin the process of writing a book, how do you select a player or a topic to cover, or does somebody seek you out? Or how does that work?

SPEAKER_01 3:12

It's kind of different. I try to write about things that nobody else had previously written about. That's not always easy to do because a lot of times publishers, you know, they're not really too keen on what happened five decades ago. But I I love pro football and I loved it in the 70s. So I tried to think of, you know, different things that hadn't been written about or different people. For example, I couldn't believe that O.J. Simpson's 1973 record of 2003 rushing yards. Nobody had written a book about that. And so I wanted to write a book about that. And I did. There was a guy I grew up watching up in Pennsylvania, that's where I'm from originally, named Bill Bradley, not the senator from New York or the New York Knicks basketball player, same guy. But Bill Bradley was a safety for the Philadelphia Eagles. And I knew of him, and I heard a rumor that he was looking for somebody to write a story. So I contacted him and I found out that he was an incredible person to interview, and I loved writing that book. So I try to write books that nobody else had written about really extensively.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

And what are you working on now? The current project?

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Yeah, I'm trying to write a book about the original Hail Mary Pass, the 1975 NFC playoff game between Dallas and Minnesota. And you know, got a chance to interview Roger Stalback and Drew Pearson. Interviewing a lot of the uh Vikings players is hard, but the Dallas players seem more open because they won. Unfortunately, Dallas just lost John Fitzgerald, who passed away the other day. Um I missed out on interviewing him, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

As far as uh Pearson goes, he was in town here in Houston or Houston area, and this has been gosh, maybe 15, almost 20 years ago. But but I I asked him, I said, I said, hey, can you tell me about this play? Because with the angle that I've seen it a thousand times, it looks like I I I can I I can see where someone would would have thought that you that you might have pushed off or that you did. And it's and I said, Is that is that what happened? He said, I mean, very calmly, look me right in the eye. No. If you go back and you look at you look at the other angle, you'll see that I was coming through for the ball. And and you don't you don't see it from that from that other side.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

So yeah, could you imagine if could you imagine if they had the cameras back then like they do today, the camera angles, there would there would be no mystery, I don't think.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Yeah, you had a lot of those of those calls. The micro infro catch at at Pittsburgh and 78, if my number is right. That's I mean that one certainly sticks out. You know, there was there was a ball that that Cliff Branch trapped in the Sea of Hands game. There's there's that. So I mean there I'm sure there are that's just the tip of the iceberg on those things.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

So so let me go back to the to the act to the book writing process. What is for for you, Joe, what is the what's the most intriguing part of the of the writing process?

SPEAKER_01 6:54

There are several parts. I you know, you got to do the research, and that that can be time consuming, but it can be fun as well, especially if you can uncover some gems that you didn't ever read before. And then there's also just trying to get a publisher. That's a challenge in and of itself, because you kind of have to be like a salesman of sorts to try and sell them on your idea. And then there's you know, drawing up an outline. What do you want what do you want the book to say mostly? And then you have to try and section it off and try and figure out, you know, what's in chapter one, two, three, four, whatever. There, there's nothing in a writing process for me, anyway, that isn't isn't really intriguing in some aspect and challenging. It's never boring for me. It's but but it can be time consuming. And uh my first book, The NFL in the 1970s, took me six years. It took me six years to write it. Yeah, I had a full-time job at the time. So I was only writing, I was only writing at night and on weekends. And it took me six years from the time I started writing until it got published.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Even with the with the Larry Little book, I I think I believe I saw that you had started that in 2022, is that right? So it took you the better part of three years?

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Well, yeah, and and that was uh unfortunately that's an unusual thing because when you're when you're dealing with different publishers, some publishers want to edit your stuff, and some want to re-edit, and then some want to re-re-edit, and that happens. Every publisher is different. And then when you're dealing with a biography like Mr. Little, he kept wanting to add different things to the book that he you know remembered with subsequent interviews. I interviewed him over a dozen times. And so trying to piece all that together, it's it's it it is time consuming, you know, but it's part of it's part of the process.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Well, and and and too, I'm sure with maybe with someone of his of his age that that maybe maybe things weren't immediately on the on the forefront of of a different thought, but you said something else, and that and that led to some to to a different thing. For example, you know, the the office of Dolphins general manager Joe Thomas, you know, was on the I'd he had moved from at some point from the seventh floor to the to the 11th, yeah, the next time that that little went to see him.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

So yeah, no, I'm sure that I'm sure that happened quite a bit.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Yeah, I'm afraid of heights, so I wouldn't have lasted too long in that building.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

He was somebody that, and then obviously he was somebody that that Larry Zanka had words with the Dolphins general manager about, hey, you know, like, well, well, yeah, we're already talking to him or whatever. It's like, well, well, how do you know about him? It's like, well, I just ran into him down the down at the at the car dealership. Like I can I can hide behind him. And I'm I'm pretty sure that that with the beating Zonka took in his first two years, that that having somebody like Larry Little to run behind and hide behind was was maybe a big priority.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Well, Larry Little was like a phenomenal athlete. And it's really incredible how so few colleges really scouted him. Because for a big man as big as he was, he was one of the fastest offensive linemen in in the league at that time. And when you combine power and speed from an offensive guard position, it's it's really incredible. And once once he joined the Dolphins, their running game improved phenomenally.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Oh, I bet I bet it did. And I'm sure he worked well with Jim Langer, another Hall of Famer, and Bob Kuchenberg. We we'll talk about him in a little bit. Somebody that I think should be in the Hall of Fame. Um let me jump back to to the OJ Simpson season in in 73. So he ran for 2,03 yards that season. And what I what I thought was interesting is that is that when the Dolphins were at Buffalo that year, the the Dolphins defense was was getting on uh on the Bills. Like, like, like what are you guys doing? I'm not even trying to get a first downer or win the game. And and they just thought that was pretty pretty foolish for just having that singular purpose in mind to get him his record.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Well, in in uh speaking about, you know, like as far as with I can understand the Dolphins' point of view, especially their defense. But you uh I can also understand Buffalo's point of view. In 73, their their passing game was barely existent, it it struggled mightily. And so uh Simpson and Jim Braxton, the fullback, the running game was their bread and butter. And it's important to note that in that first game, Miami shut the Buffalo running game down completely. But in the second game, you know, OJ was able to get his hundred yards in that game. And and you know, and Joe Ferguson was just a rookie at that time. He he wasn't really the proficient passer that he would become. So I can understand Miami's point of view, but I can also understand Buffalo's point of view.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Well, sure. I mean, I'm sure they felt like they had to go with their with their strengths, and and that was a certainly a record that they that they wanted to get, you know, for for Simpson, for sure. And they were able to do it. So yeah, good, good for them. Let's see. Okay, we talked about that. Uh let me let me talk about I've got some other questions here about just different elements of of the uh of the NFL in the 1970s. So, so so let me ask this. How how common was it to see fans throwing bottles and other things like like batteries and you know, you know, coke bottles or beer bottles, whatever, at the ref at the referees and the players, and which which stadiums were the worst for this?

SPEAKER_01 14:05

In the 70s, it wasn't that common, surprisingly enough. There's only two instances where I kind of remember it happening, and one was one was in 1970, the Oakland Raiders at the Kansas City Chiefs, and um they the fans really took it out on the refs in that game. And the only other time was in 75 in that playoff game between Minnesota and Dallas, where somebody hit a linesman, uh Armin Terzian, in the head with a whiskey bottle.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

That's it.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

And he required stitches, was able to run off the field. That was the only time in the 70s. Now, after that, as we're getting into the 80s and the 90s, that's when it really I mean, in Philadelphia, sure, Jimmy Johnson was the Dallas head coach, and he was he was pelted. They had they had they had D cell batteries packed in ice balls they were throwing at him. And I mean, I'd never seen anything like that before. And then years later, again, uh, you know, with the referees involved in Cleveland, the the Cleveland Browns fans were throwing a lot of beer bottles one afternoon. But that was I think that was in the 90s or early 2000s.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Interesting. When Zonka was a with a a rookie, one of the one of the veteran players told him, hey, when we go out to the field, we go out to the sideline, wherever, wherever they might have been. He said, put your helmet on and keep it on. And sure enough, something came in and you know nailing right in the helmet. He said, See, you see why I told you that now? And so I forgot one other thing.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

In 75 in Buffalo, Chuck Foreman of the Vikings got hit with a lot of snowballs, too. I re I forget that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Sure, sure. That's I I'm sure that those are just the only three we know about. Yeah, right. You know. Interesting. Good stuff. Let me ask you about let me jump back to the Dolphins here. As far as being the the greatest team uh of the 1970s, I I mean, for me it's the 72 Dolphins, perfect season, undefeated, 17-0. Why why do you think there's so much debate about their strength of schedule or their perceived lack thereof?

SPEAKER_01 16:46

You know, I don't know. You talk to the players, and obviously back at that time, you know, they well, even today, the the teams don't make the schedule, the league makes the schedule. And so none of those dolphins players had any kind of input into who they would play. Same, not even Don Schula had any input as to who he would play. So, you know, you I I asked Larry Little about that, and you know, he he he considers it, and I'm sure the rest of his teammates do, he considers it an insult that people would say that their team had a weak schedule. Now, you look at the one lost records of the teams that they played during the regular season. Granted, it wasn't that great. But nobody knew that it wasn't going to be that great before the season began. There's there's, you know, there's and and then you also have to consider that they still had to win two playoff games and a Super Bowl to be crowned world champions. And by the time you get to the playoffs, you you're not you're not playing a bunch of stiffs. The Cleveland Browns gave them a heck of a game in that divisional playoff game. And then Pittsburgh gave them a heck of a game in the ASC title game. And they they won the Super Bowl over Washington by one touchdown. Now, the score wasn't really indicative of how much Miami dominated in that game. But still, a key play here or there, and that could be a tied game. So, I mean, but Miami proved their medal. They won the tough games. They won all the games. You know, they they had close, they had close games in the regular season that year. They they beat Buffalo by a point. Buffalo played them tough in 72 in that one game. They beat the Jets by four points. They played them, you know, but they managed to win. And that's the mark of a champion. If you can win, you know, the games you're supposed to win, and that's the that's how you get into the playoffs, really.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

I would add the the game at Minnesota was was really close too. There was a last-minute touchdown where Mandich snuck out on a delay in you know, wide open. So yeah, I forgot about that.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

That was the third week of the season. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Yeah. Oh wow, that that early on. Okay, I was thinking, I was thinking it was later in the year for some reason.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Yeah, and that was by beating Minnesota in that game, it was that early in the year, and Miami became the only undefeated team in week three. So there was nobody else undefeated after week three except Miami.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Yeah, and you know, I I think what people lose sight of is what you were saying. That's that it no matter who who they played, it it didn't matter what their what their record was. They still had to beat them one. And then secondly, you know, the Dolphins had been to the soup were in the Super Bowl the previous year, so maybe they had a little bit of a target on their back, and those teams were treating the Dolphins game like like it was their Super Bowl type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Yeah, pretty much. And when I interviewed Mercury Morris for this book, you know, he told me they were only focused on the next game. They did not care about anything else but that game. And and that's a that's a tribute to Don Schula. He kept them so focused that, you know, I asked Norm Evans, great lineman, and I asked him, When did you feel pretty secure that you were gonna go undefeated in the regular season in 72? And he said, when it when there was two minutes left in our last game of the year against Baltimore, and we were shutting them out. So two minutes, I mean, they were not overconfident, didn't matter who they were playing.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yep. You know, it and to me that was uh just a great body of work by all of them because uh I'm sure you know the Mercury and anyone else on that team probably told you like they didn't care who got the credit. And like if this player got a touchdown, that player got touchdown or interception or fumble, whatever it was, they they didn't care as long as hey, we won. Shula was able to get everybody to buy in to his system, and so I think that speaks to them a lot.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

The 1970s is known as the me decade. Well, there was no me, there was no me in the dolphins in 72, that's for sure. It was a we decade for them, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

That's right, that's a good way to put that. Uh let's see, we talked about About bottles. Talked about that. So let me segue on to the coaches theme here. So the 70s, and and maybe there were there were more, but the four Hall of Fame coaches that to me kind of stand out are Don Shula, Tom Landry, John Madden, and Chuck Knoll.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Is is there is that just kind of a you know whichever one you you think is the best, or well there's there's Bud Grant of Minnesota, there's Chuck Knox of Los Angeles, you know, there's of course Paul Brown, Cincinnati, of course, Don Coriel. The 70s had a lot of great coaches. I know they all didn't win world championships. Um you know, to say who was the greatest coach of the 70s, man, that's tough. And because if you say one, then it makes it sound like you're implying that some of the others weren't as great. And so I well, I I that's for the fans to decide, not me.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

I gotcha. So Shula went to three consecutive Super Bowls. He won two. Landry won. Hold on, he won two. How many did they lose?

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Three.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

They lost three in the 70s, is that right? Wow. Let's see. And then John Madden only only went to one, but he won he won that one against against Minnesota. And then and then Chuck Knoll won. Is it is it three or four?

SPEAKER_01 23:43

He won four out of four. He never lost. I mean, you know, and and that's why it's kind of hard to say Shula was I mean, that Noel wasn't the greatest when you had that kind of a record.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

You can't argue with that. You know, do we look at at wins plus Super Bowl wins? Do we look at at total wins? I mean, how do we gauge that?

SPEAKER_01 24:06

So it's difficult, yeah. It depends on the your point of view, what you think is more important.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

There you go. Let me let me ask you, there's so much on your on your Facebook page, and again, that page is the NFL in the 1970s. I I saw recently where plane surfaces were were discussed. And so was there a a consensus of about how awful Astroturf was as opposed to natural grass and why Astroturf was instituted?

SPEAKER_01 24:41

The the only people that really liked artificial surfaces were the place kickers because they didn't have to slip on on a grass field or on a muddy field. They were the only ones. There, you could ask any other player who played in the 70s who was not a place kicker, and 100% of them, not 99%, 100% of them, hated artificial surfaces. And they came about, I guess the Astrodome in the late 60s was the first one. But they came about with a lot of a lot of, you know, Commissioner Rosell, I, you know, I thought he was the best commissioner that the T that the league ever had. But he was a TV guy, you know, a television guy that loved the look of artificial services. And he thought it would save teams money because they wouldn't have to do as much groundskeeping work at that time. But it was it's hard to foresee, I mean, how many injuries occurred because of these, this, this newfangled thing called an astroturf field.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

You know, for the fan, I I think a lot of fans today hate hated artificial turf. Me, I like the variety. I I like the fact that you could watch a game at one o'clock on a grass field and one on an artificial turf field at four o'clock by changing your television station. You know, I just like the different variety. Take a look at the NFL today. How many teams have that that the same turf, the same turf texture? Almost all of them. Practically. I don't even know how many teams have grass fields anymore, but I'm pretty sure it's not that many.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Yeah, it can't, it's probably not that not that many because I think that that hybrid turf with the with the rubberized pellets and the the the the grass of the the the lifelike grass particles that are that go into each of those boards that that lock in and they they they bring them in on pallets and hook them up and all that good stuff. So yeah, it you know an AstroTurf came came into existence in the in the sports stadiums in in 66 because the Astrodome opened in 65 and they had to they had to find some other type of surface. So the Astros GM Tal Smith hooked up with company in I want to say they were in Pennsylvania or Jersey Mons Monsanto, yes. Yep, and so that's how AstroTurf came into being, and so they had to you know they couldn't do it right off the right off the bat because the because the dome was such a a new thing, and so they couldn't, and and then with the new name change and stuff, so they had to they had to come up with something, but but you know, but the grass died in pretty short order, and but that's another discussion. But uh but anyway, but that's where but that's unfortunately where Astroturf came into the picture, and then it just uh I it destroyed I don't know how many how many knees and you know ankles and and and whatever else. And then on top of that, you had a much harder surface for somebody to to have their head slammed into. And so how much did that contribute to you know concussions, CTE, and everything else?

SPEAKER_01 28:28

I mean, if you look at photographs from that era, it's like playing on painted concrete. It really looks like my god. And you know, back at that time, you know, an average player would play if he was lucky, four years on average. I don't know what it is today, but back then it wasn't long.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Yeah, you know, I I mean guys like Zaka, I I think are if I'm if I'm saying this right, I think he he described it as every time he ran he ran on Astroturf, he felt like his lungs were about to explode on that. And then you had and then you had the the material.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Miami had it tougher because you had that humidity in Miami, and that made, especially in the early 70s, that that Astroturf was not just you know a baked-in, you know, hard surface, but it was also very slippery on certain days.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Yeah, I mean, we'd I it was I'm sure it was probably on on your page. I think I saw that that Rocky Blyer said that that 78 AFC playoff game against Houston was the worst conditions he had ever seen or played in.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Yeah, uh, he told me that himself. He wrote the foreword for my first book, and he said there's nothing worse. You you can play on snow, you can play, you know, in cold temperatures, you can play in a hot sun. But when you're hit with freezing rain that develops into like ice on the field, plus the constant soaking of your uniform with freezing rain, he said there's nothing worse.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

I can't, I can't imagine. That's it's pretty and you know he he was in Vietnam, so he knew about rough conditions for sure.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Let me ask you this. So we just mentioned you know the CTE and a lot of the recent diagnoses in in recent years. There was the concussion movie about Mike Webster and all those things. How vastly different do you think the game is today with a current 17-game season, and then now they're talking about going to 18?

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Well, they're if they do do that, if they do go to 18 games, they're gonna have to increase the roster sizes because you're there's no teams that doesn't suffer from injuries. I mean, yeah, it's non-existent. They're and and key players too. And you know, it's interesting, you start to see injuries right away, right from the get-go, early in the season. You'll see key players injured early in the season. And I kind of think it's probably because they haven't gotten up to game speed yet in the first few weeks. As far as with CTE, that was always around, but you didn't know about it, and it didn't really have a name in the 70s. But concussions were were always a part of the game, even with improved helmets. Today, the helmets that they're wearing today are the best that they've ever had, you know, as far as to try and prevent concussions. Back in the 70s, you really just had that shell. You didn't really have a whole lot of padding. Later on, you got more and more as the years went by. But uh it was it was kind of like you had to improve over time. When I interviewed Bill Bradley a few times, he was telling me about uh one concussion that he remembered in Pittsburgh against the Steelers. He said that all he could hear was somebody's telephone ringing over and over again. And he kept telling the uh the trainers, well, somebody please answer that phone. Well, somebody please answer that phone, you know, and it was as a telephone that was going off in his head. That that's that's how you know how he described his concussion.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Those guys got all got beat up really good back then between the the concussions and the the other injuries. Like one of the guys on the Dolphins, Bill Stanfield, had he and Verndon Herter collided, and that caused a lot of damage to Stanfield's neck, and he had to get part of his neck fused together. But after that, he could only drink half of a Coke because he couldn't he couldn't tilt his neck back any further to tilt the can. And Shula told those guys, look, you guys might have a lot of injuries. All these other guys that that you played with have similar types of things, but at least you guys have something to show for your efforts, you know, for your work with the two Super Bowl titles, right? So I I mean there I guess that is a it's a big price to pay, but I think I I think any of those guys would probably tell you they would they would do it all over again without hesitation.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

You know, and it's probably true for any sport when you're a kid, you grow up loving playing it, and you know, you look back on your career and you probably think, yeah, I could have done something different, but I I really enjoyed playing the game. I know Mr. Little told me that when he was in elementary school, he knew that's what he wanted to be, was a pro football player as a little kid. So, you know, and he he did whatever he needed to do to make that dream a reality. It it wasn't it he wasn't given like a uh a silver spoon. He worked hard to get where he became a Hall of Famer.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Let me talk about or let me ask you about some of the uniforms, the logos that that teams had in the 70s and you know, and and before or a little bit after, but which of those to to you should should never have changed, and which and which of those should return to their teams? I you know, the the Buccaneers or you know the I I know the Oilers' rights are with the Titans, but you know, the Patriots or Bengals, whoever.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

I uh well I I wish that every team today could go back to those 1970s uniforms. Because to me, they were they were the best of the best. I there were so many that I liked back then that I don't see anymore. I was a fan of the old the old Philadelphia Eagles, white helmets with the green wings. I love that one. I have a lot of people don't believe this, but I I love the Bengals one. It was the simplicity with the word Bengals along the side of it. I I thought that was, you know, that was neat. And of course, I I love the Patriots with Pat the Patriot hiking the football. Uh I mean that was so artistic. Um I I just wish every team today could go back to those 70s, you know, uniforms.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Well, I th I think unfortunately what what happened there is that a lot of marketing and creative types got in and changed things. And then change them every year. Yeah, and then and then the ownership or the management said, oh well, well, hey, if we if we keep changing these, then the fans gonna have to have the new jersey. And you know, so I I mean I guess hats off to them for making the money, but it's it doesn't it destroys their identity. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Let me uh let me ask you, I ask you this. Uh I'll come back to that one a second. So so you're a member, Joe, of the the Pro Football Writers of America, right? So what was what was it like for you to to achieve that honor? And then what does excuse me, what does that distinction afford you professionally? Like uh, I mean, do you do you get a vote in the the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection process?

SPEAKER_01 36:51

No, no, no, no, no. It just looks good on a resume. I in the early 1980s, I covered, I wrote for a couple of newspapers in Pennsylvania, and for several years I covered the Philadelphia Eagles, and that's kind of how I got into the Pro Football Writers of America. It looks good on a resume. I'm also a member of the Pro Football Researchers Association, and all you really have to do to join that is be a fan and uh pay your$35 or something like that, you know. So but but as far as getting a vote, and then no, I I don't get I I think that a lot of people would be you know pretty upset with me today if I had a vote in the Hall of Fame, because I'd be putting in so many 1970s players it wouldn't be funny.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

You know, I'm just gonna who are some of those. I I'm sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

I I think I know what you're gonna ask me. Who who were some of the players I think should be in there? Otis Taylor of the Chiefs for one, Elsie Greenwood of the Steelers for another. Oh gosh. Of course, you mentioned him earlier, Bob Kuchenberg of the Dolphins. He should be in there. There's there's a lot of guys, I think, that should be. When I when I see different players go in there today, and I'm thinking Kuchenberg was better than him, LC Greenwood was better than him, you know, and I see the unfairness of it all. And what's really sad is that, you know, a lot of the guys from the 70s, they're they're going, they're dying, and they're never going to get a chance to experience that. That that ad honor. You know, I remember how long it took Bob Hayes to get in, and he didn't get in until after he passed away.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

So, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of things that are unfair with that.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Absolutely. And I would have really enjoyed seeing Kuchenberg's Hall of Fame speech. Because by by most accounts, he was described as just being a nut and and just being a really kind of kind of crazy and funny guy and everything. And that would have been that would have been a lot of fun to see for sure. And the other name that I heard that I've heard thrown about quite a bit is Tommy Novas, but I don't I don't really know a whole lot about him.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Well, he was a he was a great linebacker for the Falcons in the mostly the mid to late 60s and early 1970s. He got, you know, he was unfortunately stuck in a situation where there wasn't a lot of you know leaving one team for another back at that era. And Atlanta wasn't a winning team. They weren't, you know, a big media market either back at that time. So I don't know if there's any Falcons players from the 70s that made the Hall of Fame. I really don't think there are any. If memory sucks.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

I was gonna say, I know Bart, I don't think Barkowski is in uh Bubba Bean, Bubba Bean, Billy White shows Johnson, I think. Did he play for them?

SPEAKER_01 40:32

He did later in his career, but he's not in the hall of fame either. Right. But if there was gonna be an Atlanta Falcons player who would be in the Hall of Fame, it would be Nobis, but he's not.

SPEAKER_00 40:45

Do you feel like that's to go back to what you were just saying that he was he was he played for a small market team? Do you feel like it that's a contributing factor to maybe someone someone getting in from uh a Pittsburgh or a Los Angeles or a Dallas or Chicago something?

SPEAKER_01 41:04

I think it can be Super Bowl winning.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:07

I think it can be, but not always. I I think that the the big factor, in my opinion, seems to be uh if he was on a winning team and if he won Super Bowls. Right. Winning championships has a lot to do with getting into the Hall of Fame. You can you can deny it all you want, but the facts are the facts. You know, it's if you're gonna be on a winning team and if you're gonna have some Lombardi trophies under your belt, your your chances are better to get in there.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, and some people knocked, I think, Bob Greasy's career just because he didn't he didn't have gaudy numbers with with the Dolphins running the ball so much, but he did have three consecutive Super Bowls and he won two of them.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

So maybe well you look at the people that look at the people that bashed Joe Namath. Joe Namath had one one memorable moment. If you're gonna ask anybody about Joe Namath, besides endorsing all kinds of stuff, you know, don't they remember that guarantee in Super Bowl III? They don't remember all those years after Super Bowl III when he couldn't make the Jets a winning team, you know, and so but he's in the Hall of Fame. So, so, you know, Bob Greasy and Joe Namath benefited from being champions.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Absolutely. Absolutely. Joe, this has been an amazing conversation. Let me ask you a couple more things here and we'll land the plane, so to speak. Um I wanted to ask you about about some of the big hits or the big hitters of the 1970s. I'm you know I'm probably gonna give you a dolphins reference here, but I think the biggest, one of the biggest hits that that I ever saw, and I'm you know, I'm not being biased here, was was the Minnesota game in '72, where Greasy had to get rid of the ball a little bit sooner, I think, than he wanted to, because he was getting pressure on Norm Evans' side, and and he threw the ball up a little bit. Zonka had to come up and and jump up and get it, and Roy Winston just almost cut him in half.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Yeah, I saw that. Yeah, it was a brutal hit. And Larry Zonka didn't take those kinds of hits. That was a rarity. Larry Zonka, he didn't get many headaches. He gave them. You know, so that was a rare hit. There, there's a lot of in the 70s, there was a lot of hitting going on. And uh certainly today, the hits that in the 70s that you saw today would get penalties.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

I would throw probably Mike Curtis of the then Baltimore Colts. Maybe he deserves a lot of consideration for a lot of people believe so, yeah. As far as Monday night football, let me ask you ask you this. We know about the Earl Campbell game in 78, his his rookie season against the Dolphins in the Astrodome. But were there other games like that in the 70s on Monday night?

SPEAKER_01 44:31

There were some. There were some, and for different reasons. I can remember in 76 there was a game played at RFK Stadium between the Cardinals, who were in St. Louis at the time, and the Washington Redskins, who were the Redskins at the time. And it was a monsoon. It was pouring down rain on a natural grass field at RFK Stadium. And there was, I mean, nobody could hold on to the ball because it was so slick and wet with all that rain. The rain didn't stop until hours after the game. That was one that was really memorable. But there were others as well. The Dolphins, because they were a winning team, they played in their share of them. I remember in 73, the Pittsburgh Steelers came to the Orange Bowl, and they started Joe Gilliam at quarterback in that game. And within about a half an hour, Dick Anderson of the Dolphins had three interceptions to his name. And two touchdowns, two return touchdowns. You know, that was a memorable game. But Pittsburgh came back in the second half of that game to make it very close. But Miami won. You know, there were Monday Night Football had its really great decade in the 1970s, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

It did. If the Dolphins were playing and I wanted to watch them, I was allowed to stay up for the entirety of the Oilers game in 78. So I'm in third grade at this point. And and my parents were like, okay, but if you don't get up for school in the morning like you're supposed to, then all bets are off, we're never letting you do this again. So so I I lived up to my end of the bargain. But but otherwise, otherwise, when when Howard Cosell came on on at halftime and did the halftime highlights, that was I I I could watch those and that was it.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

Yeah, the same with me. Yeah. As I got older, my parents let me stay up later, you know. But in the early 70s, I started watching in 71. If I was pretty much allowed to watch to the halftime highlights. Now, it's important to note in my household, I had two sisters, and we have one television we had one television. So getting getting control of the television was difficult for me because my sisters guarded that television like Larry Little guarded Bob Greasy. You know, so it was it was, you know, so it was a it was a really great opportunity when I got a chance to watch Monday Night Football. And, you know, that great memories for me.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Absolutely. Well, I'm sure they had things they wanted to watch too. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Oh yeah, yeah, they didn't want to watch football for some reason. I, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Hey, hey Jill, if if someone wanted to to research the the NFL in the in the 1970s, and aside from your from your Facebook page, what are what would some good resources be that you could point them to? Maybe it's a a certain collection or a library or a simple search on YouTube.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Well, I I hate to sound like an egotistical person, but the book that I wrote on it has over almost 450 pages of and I I break down every year of that decade, every year has a chapter, 70, 71, 72. And I tried to put as much in there as I possibly could. I think if they're able to read through that entire book, because it took me six years to write it, sure. I I think if that will give them a great start to researching the 70s in the NFL.

SPEAKER_00 48:38

Oh, very good. Very good. Joe, what's the what's the best way for listeners to to contact you if they have a a question or a comment? And is there is there another place besides Amazon where they can find your books?

SPEAKER_01 48:52

Yeah, you can find my books at Barnes and Noble, their website, and the Amazon website. The the websites are the best w place to go because catching them in a bookstore, it's not it's not really that easy. Every bookstore is different. Some stock different books, other than you know, down in Miami, you might find my book on Larry Little, but if you're up in New York, you might not. So the websites are the best way to get it. And I forget, what was your your previous question? I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Oh, just uh the best way for listeners to to contact me.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

Oh, to contact me. Yeah. Go go on my Facebook page, uh the NFL in the 1970s, and hit messenger and go through there. And I I try to get to those messages at least once every couple weeks. Also, I have a website, jozigorskywriter.com, and you can read you can read about all my books on that website.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

Okay. And and what uh what I will do in the in the podcast show notes, I'll put links for for all of those. For you know, the for the Facebook page, for you know, Barnes and Noble, Amazon, and then for your for your webpage as well.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

I appreciate that, Greg. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

Yes, sir. Well, Joe, I've I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. Thank you very much for speaking, for speaking with me today. I'm so grateful to you personally for your research and compiling all of these incredible stories. I this is really just an absolute blast, and the the pleasure was was all mine, and I can't uh can't thank you enough for being my guest today.

SPEAKER_01 50:38

Oh, well, thank you, Gray. You're too kind. You take care of yourself and enjoy the NFL draft coming up.

SPEAKER_00 50:44

Oh, you do the same. You do the same.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:47

All right. So on see you, Joe. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. All right, everyone. Thank you again for listening to the Heroes and Icons podcast with your host, Greg Randolph. Once more, thank you very much to our guest, Joe Zagorsky. And again, his page on Facebook is the NFL in the 1970s. I highly recommend it, as well as any of his several books on the NFL greatest players and moments from that incredible decade of football. You can find links to his page and a link to Amazon to get any of his amazing books in the show notes for this podcast. Thank you again, everyone, for listening. Have a great night and God bless.