Join me, your host Ruth Hovsepian, as I welcome the remarkable Athena Dean Holtz in a compelling conversation about the often-unseen New Age influences sneaking into Christian circles. Athena, with her rich background in publishing and as a spiritual abuse survivor, brings to light the concerning aspects of the popular show "The Chosen," including its Mormon funding and how it might blur the lines of theological understanding. Listen in as we unpack the potential risks of these influences and the importance of scriptural knowledge to discern the truth in our faith communities.
In our heartfelt discussion, we tackle the pitfalls of superficial engagement with the Bible and the dangers of the prosperity gospel and other false teachings. With an emphasis on deep scriptural understanding and reflection, I share personal experiences of spiritual abuse and highlight the need for a true, humble approach to faith that mirrors the life of Jesus. This chapter is a clarion call for believers to arm themselves with wisdom and discernment to combat misleading ideologies that can ensnare even the most devout followers.
The episode wraps up with a critical look at the phenomenon of celebrity worship within the church and the paramount importance of discernment in spiritual leadership. I underscore the responsibility each believer holds as a gatekeeper of their faith to ensure teachings and leadership align with the fear and holiness of God. Our conversation also addresses the aftermath of publicized scandals and the caution necessary when selecting spiritual resources. I extend my heartfelt thanks to Athena for her insights and invite you, our listeners, to engage with these pressing issues for a faith that is vigilant and informed.
Connect with Athena Dean Holtz:
✔Website: www.athenadeanholtz.com
✔Instagram: @athena_dean_holtz
✔Facebook: @athenadeanholtz
✔LinkedIn: @athenadeanholtz
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✔Podcast - https://outofthedarknesswithruthhovsepian.buzzsprout.com/
✔Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/ruthhovsepian/
✔Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/ModernDayRuthRedeemed/
✔LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ruthhovsepian/
✔Speaking - https://www.ruthhovsepian.com/speaking
✔Books - https://www.ruthhovsepian.com/booksruthhovsepian
✰ BUSINESS EMAIL ✰
info@ruthhovsepian.com
✰ MUSIC ✰
hot music - winning-elevation
Join me, your host Ruth Hovsepian, as I welcome the remarkable Athena Dean Holtz in a compelling conversation about the often-unseen New Age influences sneaking into Christian circles. Athena, with her rich background in publishing and as a spiritual abuse survivor, brings to light the concerning aspects of the popular show "The Chosen," including its Mormon funding and how it might blur the lines of theological understanding. Listen in as we unpack the potential risks of these influences and the importance of scriptural knowledge to discern the truth in our faith communities.
In our heartfelt discussion, we tackle the pitfalls of superficial engagement with the Bible and the dangers of the prosperity gospel and other false teachings. With an emphasis on deep scriptural understanding and reflection, I share personal experiences of spiritual abuse and highlight the need for a true, humble approach to faith that mirrors the life of Jesus. This chapter is a clarion call for believers to arm themselves with wisdom and discernment to combat misleading ideologies that can ensnare even the most devout followers.
The episode wraps up with a critical look at the phenomenon of celebrity worship within the church and the paramount importance of discernment in spiritual leadership. I underscore the responsibility each believer holds as a gatekeeper of their faith to ensure teachings and leadership align with the fear and holiness of God. Our conversation also addresses the aftermath of publicized scandals and the caution necessary when selecting spiritual resources. I extend my heartfelt thanks to Athena for her insights and invite you, our listeners, to engage with these pressing issues for a faith that is vigilant and informed.
Connect with Athena Dean Holtz:
✔Website: www.athenadeanholtz.com
✔Instagram: @athena_dean_holtz
✔Facebook: @athenadeanholtz
✔LinkedIn: @athenadeanholtz
✰ SOCIALS ✰
✔Website - https://www.ruthhovsepian.com/
✔Podcast - https://outofthedarknesswithruthhovsepian.buzzsprout.com/
✔Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/ruthhovsepian/
✔Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/ModernDayRuthRedeemed/
✔LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ruthhovsepian/
✔Speaking - https://www.ruthhovsepian.com/speaking
✔Books - https://www.ruthhovsepian.com/booksruthhovsepian
✰ BUSINESS EMAIL ✰
info@ruthhovsepian.com
✰ MUSIC ✰
hot music - winning-elevation
00:17 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Welcome my friends to Out of the Darkness with Hovsepian and and my guest. And my guest today is Athena Dean Holtz, who is a publisher, speaker, author, professional MC, podcaster, blogger, former radio host, bookstore owner, spiritual abuse survivor and a pastor's wife. Her Job-like experience of devastating spiritual abuse turned to modern-day Cinderella's story is an inspiration to many, and today we are going to be talking about the new age influences in our churches and in our faith walk, and that is the reason why I invited Athena. I've been following her on social media for a while a little while and recently she has posted a few things that has kind of rattled the cages of our social media community, and I want to have these people on who do that, because I believe that, as believers and children of God, that we need to keep each other accountable and put out there things that we learn and make other people realize it. So welcome Athena, and I'm so glad that we're going to have this conversation.
01:36 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
Thank you, ruth, it's great to be with you.
01:39 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Well, I want to talk about the one of the most recent posts that you put on Facebook and it was about, I believe it's a show called the Chosen and, as I mentioned earlier, I have not seen it. I have been hearing about it in recent months, about you know the story line. I've heard the good and the bad Athena tell me what it was, or tell us what it was that you know pushed you to put the commentary that you did on Chosen.
02:19 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
Well, the funny thing is it wasn't. The post wasn't actually about the Chosen, it was about the fact that the Mormon church, the Latter-day Saints, lds, whatever you want to call them, have. I have watched them in the publishing arena. They started probably I want to say maybe 15 years ago, maybe longer normalizing their theology to be perceived as evangelical when it is not at all. We do not worship the same Jesus. Their theology is error, it's heresy, it is not Orthodox Christianity.
03:06
And I made the comment that there's, you know, all these music groups that are out there. They're amazing, but they're pointing back to the Mormon church. There's, you know, artists. I noticed the infiltration of artists with the beautiful framed pictures of Jesus and different biblical scenes in the Christian bookstores over the years. I mean, I've been in Christian publishing for over 30 years. So all of a sudden you see this influx of Mormon creatives, whether it's, you know, in film or in books or in music, and I was.
03:55
And then I made the slight comment in my post that, you know, the, the chosen, is becoming set, and because there's Mormon money behind it and there's Mormon production, the production company Angel Studios, all of that, that connection there that began to worry me because what I saw was comments from the people who produce the show that we worship the same Jesus. That was spoken on an interview. I did see that I have not watched the series I don't want to only because of the Mormon influence that many former Mormons are saying there is Mormon theology seeping into the storyline and that alarmed me and it just was consistent with this PR campaign that I have watched over the last couple of decades normalizing Mormons as brothers and sisters in Christ, which I'm sorry they're not. They're deceived and what they believe is a false religion. And so that was really. I wasn't like I have done that before. I posted about specifically about the chosen and challenging that and, oh my goodness, it blew up all over.
05:32 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
I mean, I read some of those comments because I was really interested. As I said, I hadn't seen it and I didn't. I myself cannot say if the underlying message of the show has, you know, the Latter-day Saints message in it, but what really fascinated me were the comments that were coming out and people, so you know, like vehemently, like so strongly protecting the show and saying, well, it's the message. As long as the message is going out, what is wrong with it? And we hear this in many instances and your example of, you know, music groups or art or whatever. I my concern with it is that if we are not aware of it right, and we are not if we aren't strong in our belief and if we don't know the scriptures, we can't see that underlying message. And and we are deceived so quickly.
06:45
And over the last season, during season one, I really touched upon a few things which rattled some cages, and that was about, you know, practices that we have in our churches and in our faith walk, such as yoga, reiki and the grams, the thought of the law of attraction. Follow your heart. There's there. There's so many things you know, like energy, healing us, this, what is it? The crystals it just goes on. And and to me, how? How can we be so inundated with information and yet not be aware of what these practices are doing to the church?
07:44 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
I don't know yeah, I after I thought I had done my due diligence on the enneagram, because I was given a manuscript to publish and I wanted to make sure it was you know not conflicting with scripture and you know.
08:01
So I read through it and and there was lots of scriptures quoted to, you know make it palatable for a Christian reader. And when later, after it had sold like 15,000 copies and had gone on to be picked up by a major publisher, I was confronted with the roots of the enneagram. Being not only a cultic but the guy who got the nine names of the enneagram, audio his name is Claudia Naranjo, or no, right, so yeah he got that from automatic writing.
08:39
Well, automatic writing is channeling a demon, I'm sorry yeah can't slap a scripture on that and make it okay and yeah. I had to publicly repent for having published that book and allowing people to be led into believing that that is a Christian practice that is absolutely consistent with the word of God. It is not. That's the stuff that they burned in Acts 18 that they threw in the fire.
09:09 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
You can't redeem something that's roots are evil and and the scary thing is that churches are using this to find. Well, I don't know enough about it, but I've been hearing that churches use this with their leadership to find out what their leadership style is, or whatever. But when I did, you know, just basic research on it, basic research on it, you know, earlier last year, it shook me to to see that this was, as you said, what they call automatic writing, which is channeling unfamiliar spirits is how they had put it, I believe which is satanic. Yeah, how can we do this? And you know to me this, this shows that we are not rooted deeply into the Word of God. That's all it is. It is our lack of understanding of what the scripture says. I don't, you know, it's so difficult when the leaderships, you know, the church leadership is pushing certain types of practices.
10:29 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
I don't know why, you know, the enemy comes as an angel of light. He doesn't come as this horror movie individual that's, you know, just creepy and evil. No, he doesn't come like that. He comes with this new truth that appeals to our pride and makes us feel like, man, we got this. We, you know.
10:54 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Right.
10:55 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
And it's a lie, and to see the infiltration into the church. Because I came out of New Age, you know, I see it a lot quicker than most people do that have never understood that there is a demon named Jesus. There is a demon named Mary that people pray to and think they're praying to the real thing, but the twelve ascended masters in the New Age are a false. They're demonic, demonically inspired, and there's a lot of people that pray to Jesus and pray to Mary and they're not following and praying to the Christ of Nazareth who, you know, is depicted in the Bible with all truth, god himself in the form of a man. That is not who they're praying to, but they think they are, and that's the scary part.
12:00 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Well, coming from an Armenian background and Greek influence in my life, the praying to Mary and the saints is huge in the Orthodox Church and it surprises me when our Protestant churches do not see this as being sacrilegious and not as totally against what Scripture says. And you know, I remember back in the 80s when yoga started to take root in the churches and I was fairly young, you know, and I was in, you know, my early, late teens, 20s, and I remember people advocating yoga and saying, well, we're not because the negative pushback about it or the pushback on yoga was at that time. It's when you're doing yoga and you're meditating, you're opening yourself up to the unknown. So Christians, you know Christians were saying at the time, when we do that meditation, we're meditating on God and we're filling ourselves up with the Holy Spirit.
13:10
But again, because of the influence of my ethnic background, yoga was not an option. You know, fast forward and doing my own research on it and again, yoga is go, so is so against our biblical truths. Which says, you know, yoga each pose, and I've been drilling this on almost every opportunity I can because yoga has really, really sunk its cause into the churches and each pose is bowing, sorry, bowing to a specific deity. So we cannot say that we're doing yoga for exercise when we know that each pose is a bowing motion to a deity.
14:06 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
Unredeemable. It is absolutely. I don't care if you're listening to praise music while you're doing it, yes, even if you're quoting scriptures while you're doing it.
14:14 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
The enemy is laughing because we are opening the door wide to him and saying come on in and that's scary it is and it's interesting and I know your background is publishing and that's what you're doing as well, and some of the books that came out and have also infiltrated into our churches, for example Harry Potter.
14:42
I know it's a little ways back, but it still has that influence of Christian parents introducing these books to their children, and I'm an avid reader. I used to buy my children books instead of toys when they were young. But when they were young and Harry Potter came out, it became a little sore spot in our home because my kids were seeing everybody reading it and I said I will not get you these books and you will not read these books because of this. And I mean they didn't miss out on anything, obviously because we know it's passing trends on books, but that's an example of how, as Christian parents, we follow the trends in society rather than taking a moment and maybe not being the friend of our children by saying no to our children on certain things. And it's I don't know, it's become scary, this thing of parents doing whatever their children are asking for.
16:00 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
Well, I think also that the enemy has done a really good job at getting us to be at one extreme or the other when it comes to understanding the demonic realm. He would rather have us be. Oh, it's no big diapos, whatever you know that will make me do it.
16:21
you know little pitchfork and you know porn, whatever. You know right. And there's a lot of Christians and a lot of missionaries who go on the mission field with that kind of attitude and they get great I mean demolished. But then there's the other extreme, where there's a demon behind every doorknob.
16:41
Right, that's wrong too, so it's the enemy has figured out the strategy to keep us naive and not. We're not being barrens, we are not looking at scripture for our plumb line, we're just. We're infatuated with the world and the celebrities and the influencers and and you know they can do no wrong, that whatever they're doing must be good, because look at all the people that follow them. Well, I'm sorry, but that does.
17:19 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
that is not a measuring stick of truth and that is not a popular take at all, athena that you are saying because I, I preach the same thing. You know, preach. You know. I'm out here trying to get this across. That just because it sounds good, just because it looks good. If you, I want, I want our believers, I want the children of God to go back to a time of prayer and a time of studying the Word of God, not just reading and journaling. I mean, it's great, you know, there's a lot of influencers out there pushing Bible journaling and all of these things. That's great, buy your markers, buy, I have nothing against it, but are you spending more time gathering all that? That's my question. Then you are actually studying the Word of God.
18:19
Taking it in taking it in, where you're stuck on a verse and you're convicted on that word that the Lord is speaking to you, are you just pushing it aside? And I know I'm convicted when I'm reading and I want to change. And I think when we go into the Word of God with that mindset, that open mind of Lord, please show me my life and what I'm doing, and if it's right and if it's wrong, and let me you know, change my ways. Then the Lord will speak to us. You know, and and to me that hearing people say I don't hear God, I don't hear the Holy Spirit, have you taken the time to be quiet in the presence of the Lord?
19:13 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
Right? Or have you heard him in your heart and said, no, I'm not going there? And, you know, kind of quenching the Holy Spirit, that's right. Oftentimes, when I am feeling dry and like I just and not connected and just feeling really far from God, I will say, lord, show me my heart as you see it, and boom, there we go. Two weeks ago, when he tried to nudge me on something and I just, you know, said not now or no, or tried to minimize it, and so no wonder we can't hear God. We haven't been obedient oftentimes, and if we haven't been obedient then he's gonna get quiet and wait for us to come to the end of our soul.
20:12 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
That's right and you know. I think one of the dangers that we're seeing and you mentioned this earlier was that the world is using scripture versus, and you know, things that look good on the surface, or using a scripture to justify something. For example, one of the things that comes to mind is the law of attraction. You know, be positive and believe in it and it will be given to you. I don't know that, to me, this is not scriptural, you know, and it concerns me because we're seeing young people buying into this and, you know, focusing on this. This is what God wants me to do. This is how God, but it's not. You know, the God does not. God is not gonna give us everything that we want.
21:17 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
Absolutely, and that's what's wrong with the whole prosperity gospel. Yes, the the Bethel movement, where everything is a positive prophecy and we can do great, that you, I can do all things through Christ. Well, guess what like? Go back through your four verses and see what he's talking about. He's talking about what? Being content with nothing, not I can win an award or I can, you know, start a company and sell it for millions of dollars, or I can be in the Olympics. No, that's not what God is talking about in the scripture and it goes back to what we just said.
21:57 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Right, if you don't know your scriptures in context, then every verse can be taken out of context. And, yeah, prosperity message is a huge one. And, and you know, let's take a look at Jesus. What kind of a life did he lead on earth? It wasn't a prosperous one. Why wasn't he prosperous? If that's what the scriptures say, and if we are taking the word of God at face value, at what it says to us, then why wasn't Jesus living in a multimillion dollar home, with chariots, with gold, instead of going from town to town, traveling and, you know, living off of the generosity of others? You know, even for the last supper, where did they go? They borrowed a room to have that last meal and that doesn't really appeal to our pride.
23:04 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
No, that kind of life. No, we want the prosperous Jesus who had, you know, no seam in his robe, and you know all the things that the prosperity preachers try and justify you know, and make a false Jesus out of him yeah, it is.
23:29 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
It is actually very, very disturbing to to see this and to see. You know, at one time I used to say and this is gonna come across harsh, but it has to be said I used to really say, well, these, these messengers and it's not just for the, the, the prosperity message, any church leader, anybody that is, whether it's Bethel, you know all there's so many out there that they're the ones that will stand in front of God in judgment. And I would say, what about all of these poor, innocent people following them? I'm not in agreement with that, with myself anymore, because as individuals, we need to do what the Bible tells us, and that is root ourselves. Our foundation has to be solid and there comes a time that you just are just following blindly along and Scripture does not say that.
24:34
And, yes, my heart breaks for all of these people following these false prophets and false leaders. But in some way they need to. How do we wake them up? What is the way to wake them up? Shake them, you know. Take them by the collar and shake them and say look, you're going the wrong way, you're going about this the wrong way. How do we do that, athena? How do we reach out to these people.
25:03 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
Well, I know from my own experience with 13 years of spiritual abuse, where I believed because I didn't understand the difference between Scripture in context and out of context, I allowed this false shepherd and his wife to manipulate and control and shame and shun, using Scriptures out of context, and I lost everything. I mean, I went through that and at the end of that I said, lord, what was wrong with me? That I would believe a lie is the truth and give up everything for it, thinking I was doing God's will and I was absolutely nowhere in the vicinity of doing his will. I was absolutely being controlled and silenced by the evil one through these people. And the biggest thing that got impressed upon me was that he brought to memory a time, 20 years before, when he had shown me that my own brokenness and my own trauma, that I had never let him in to those areas and I had been controlled by those wounds because they weren't healed and it was time for me to allow him into those areas and instead of obeying, I talked to the hand I'm too busy doing ministry. I got other, more important things to do. I did not want to hear that and because of that, that made me vulnerable to deception, and I think there's a whole lot of people in who are born again.
26:50
But because they've heard that, well, we're new creations in Christ, you don't have to look back. Just go to work in the church and start serving and start doing all these things that keep us from those quiet moments where we are being still before the Lord and letting the Holy Spirit show us where we're still bitter, where we've stuffed a trauma that is just still ruling our lives. And there's just so much of that in the church. No wonder the enemy is infiltrating and they're just soaking it in, buying it every. You know. Not even we're supposed to test everything. No one's testing anything anymore, right?
27:45 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
No one's questioning what are the leadership of the churches are doing anymore? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know it comes in so innocently, you know, so to speak. You know one of the other things that I think about. And, by the way, for the healing part, I'm in agreement with you. You know, I grew up in the church environment and I've heard that. You know, now you're a believer, leave it at the feet of Jesus and you'll be fine. Yeah, but it's not our nature to be fine when there has been that kind of trauma. But yeah, that's a whole other episode of healing within the church. But there is one other area I would love to touch on is music that has unbiblical lyrics, and now that is a touch you want, right, and you know we see them through Hillsong, beth, we've heard it all right, bethel, what?
28:50 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
is an elevation, yeah, yeah.
28:53 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
And and how do we address this? You know, how do we? How do we approach people and say to them look, this is, this is not right. Well, how do we do this?
29:09 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
That's a. That's a touchy one because, boy, people love their music and all of the you know Caleb, and all the different Christian radio stations, they're going to play whatever is popular. No one, there's no gatekeeper saying, wait a second, this music points to this ministry, which is completely false doctrine. No one's willing to do that and so it's out there and and that's. You know, I was in Scientology before. I was in the New Age before.
29:43 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
I got sick.
29:45 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
And that is a huge. I mean all cults will use influencers, celebrities and musicians and music to it's. It's maybe not obvious that that is what's going on, but that is always. The agenda is to use those things to draw people into their theology. Whether it's a secular cult like Scientology or you know something like Bethel or Hillsong or Elevation, those are very just. They're preaching a gospel that is not biblical.
30:33 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
And I heard yeah, I heard someone say to me that even paying the license fees, you know, for churches to sing these songs in their own churches only encourages those churches and their apostate actions and right. It supports them, it supports them, and I hadn't thought about it in that way. You know it was, but but yeah, I'm in agreement, since I heard that. I know this is not a popular, a popular thing to say, but you're right, we need to be the gatekeepers and I'm not, I don't mean yeah, go ahead please.
31:16 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
Well, and most of the songs you know, there's probably a majority of the songs that Bethel and Hillsong and Elevation right and put out there, are biblical. But then there's also, you know, a good amount that's not biblical, that is pushing their theology. But even if it was all biblical, if it is pointing to heresy and to a movement that does grave soaking and tries to, you know, reclaim the new age, you can't reclaim something that is evil. And for music, even if it was all biblical, if it is number one supporting an organization that preaches false doctrine, then we're supporting it, and not only with the licensing fees but just the fact you're advertising in a church. If you're doing that music, you are advertising that movement, you're giving it credibility, you're saying, hey, we're gonna sing that music, so we must endorse it. It is an implied endorsement. And I mean, with everything that went down with Hillsong, why would anyone do any Hillsong music? I mean, that's just all the cover-ups and all the sin and all the you know, just on every level.
32:52 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Yeah, we are living in very difficult times and I know that you know like we can go back all the way, you know, to the beginning of, you know, our scriptures, to Genesis, exodus. Why in the Ten Commandments? The Ten Commandments, you know, gave us a way. It was given to the children of Israel there. But why were they given? Because they were living through those things when it said you shall not have any other gods before or worship other gods.
33:26
Obviously it was happening and what is happening today happened back then and sometimes I hear the older generation say, oh well, you know, back in our time. No, back in your time it was happening as well, except we didn't have social media and we didn't have the internet, where it was in your face, which is what is happening today. And we really need and I don't necessarily endorse having gatekeepers in the church, because the danger of a set gatekeeper you know where, because the danger becomes that it becomes their gatekeeping, not what the word of God says. I think we all need to be gatekeepers, absolutely. I wanna make that really clear because I want everyone to go back to the word of God and read it, absorb it and start to question what is happening.
34:30
Is this what the Lord wants from us? Is this what God wants for the church? Is this what we should be doing as a church? We should be the gatekeepers and questioning, because the moment we leave the leadership in the churches do as they want and put them up on a pedestal we're making them into. We're worshiping our pastors. Now what happened? Where is that fear of God when we're worshiping pastors and song leaders and worship leaders?
35:09 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
It's that whole celebrity thing that America is, and even other nations because we take it to other nations and have these big crusades and all the pomp and circumstance and all the things. It is we because we do not understand who our God is and the righteousness and holiness of God. We have become worldly in the way that we put our zeal and our passion and all of our hope in people. And you can't trust people. The heart is deceitfully wicked.
35:49
Who can know it? I don't care who it is, and there's just so much there. That is, if you say that to someone who is a huge follower of any number of the people we've already talked about today or movements, man, they come unglued and they come unglued. Man, they come unglued.
36:15 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
It is, and it's really interesting because in the last couple of years there was a very well-known, you know, worldwide known person I don't wanna pick on a name but and this person died and a lot of dirt came out.
36:40
For those that know, know, and my dad, it really disturbed him because my dad's 84 years old now but you know, and he doesn't really have, you know, people that he really follows, but this one person he really enjoyed listening to and following and quoting and it really really affected him and it was like, oh, this is horrible, this is this.
37:12
And then I said, dad, but this is the danger when we lift up one or two people and we are constantly looking at them and I it's not to say that I don't listen to sermons, I don't listen to pastors, I don't read books, I do, but I've never, I've never, even as a child, never been one of those fans where this person can do no wrong. It was just sort of you know what it is and that's really damaging to the church, because the damage done by these very well-known evangelists and speakers and theologians, well, they're human and they mess up and with it, they bring down a whole lot of people, Well, and they surround themselves with the yes men and yes women who can be controlled and won't call them out, and you know.
38:16 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
And then, when you know, you see things. It's this thing called confirmation bias. You don't want to believe that you could have been wrong all these years, believe that this person is a man of God or a woman of God, and so you look for all the reasons to prove that you really weren't wrong and the heart is deceitfully wicked and we lie to ourselves.
38:40 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Yeah, it is a very difficult situation that we put ourselves in, but, yeah, I think that we just need to be alert. We just need to be aware of who we follow, what we read that's a whole other area to books that we read, whether it's Bible studies or devotionals. Be aware where it's coming from, you know. Make it come, let it come from reputable publishers. Do your research before you know just taking it and accepting it, for you know solid, you know theology. Make sure that what, who you're listening to, you know music, wise, sermon wise, that they're, you know, really rooted in the word of God. Yeah, athena, I really want to thank you for being on here and touching on a lot of different subjects, but I think these are so important. It's to make people aware of what is happening. I really thank you. And to my listeners, if you want to follow Athena and see more of her content, please check out the show notes. All the contact information is there, athena, thank you so much.
40:03 - Athena Dean Holtz (Guest)
Thank you so much, Ruth. It's been a delight. Thank you.