The Stigma of Therapy with David Brannock

Join me, Ruth Hovsepian, as I welcome David Brannock, a former pastor turned mental health advocate, for a powerful discussion about the stigma of therapy, especially within the church community. We shed light on the often difficult relationship between faith and mental health support, confronting the myths that suggest seeking therapy indicates a lack of faith or trust in God's power. With David's unique perspective, we explore the importance of embracing both spiritual guidance and professional counseling as complementary paths to healing and how leaders in the faith community can advocate for mental health awareness and support.

Listen in as David and I tackle the distinctions between therapy and counseling, addressing the church's historical challenges in dealing with personal and familial issues. We stress the necessity of offering understanding and practical tools to those grappling with mental health struggles. The conversation culminates in a heartfelt discussion on creating church environments that encourage congregants to seek the help they need and the vital role of church members in fostering a supportive atmosphere. Don't miss this enlightening exchange that aims to bridge the gap between mental health care and spiritual support, reaffirming that reaching out for help is not just courageous but a testament to one's strength and faith.

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Transcript

00:18 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Welcome back to Out of the Darkness with Ruth Hovsepian. Today, my guest is David Brannock, who is a lifelong follower of Jesus, a former pastor with 30 years of preaching experience and he hasn't stopped. He's still going on. He is also a mental health advocate who serves God as a licensed professional counselor, a writer of devotions and plays and a speaker. David's mission is to help reduce the church's stigma against therapy by building a bridge with mental health. I am so glad that you are here with me today, David. 

00:55 - David Brannock (Guest)
Thank you so much, Ruth. Thank you for having me. 

00:58 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Well, right out the gate, I want to ask the one question that I get asked a lot of, and I know that in the last year, with my podcast, we've discussed this thing about how, when we are having issues within the church or having personal issues, that we sometimes are told to just go and pray in our prayer closet and sometimes we are given counseling by our pastors, but we seem to shy away with professional therapy. So why is that? First of all, as a pastor, how do you address that? 

01:39 - David Brannock (Guest)
That is an excellent question and I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this. There are a couple of things come to mind right off. One is that there are those in the body of Christ who do believe. It is simply a faith issue that if we have more faith then we could get over whatever it is, overcome our depression, overcome our anxiety, overcome the effects of the trauma. And then there is another segment, I believe, of the church that says no, there is value in going to therapy, but if that therapy is not done by a distinctively Christian therapist or a pastor, then there is the risk that, well, they might be led astray by a quote, secular, unquote theory and that might not line up with their biblical values, and that that could be an issue. I think those two things, the lack of faith segment, and then the well, I don't know that I can trust what a licensed person would say I think those two things conspire to make it a barrier. 

03:01
A third thing that comes to mind is, while there is certainly much more talk about mental health in the news today, I think there's still a lot of misunderstandings and, like often when there is some sort of tragedy say, you know, a mass shooting. Well, was mental health involved? Were they mentally ill? And you know, the vast majority of folks with mental illness are not a danger to themselves or to other people, and I think, when bad things happen and it's attributed to mental illness or it's blamed on mental illness, that it can people can. It can send a message. Well, gosh, if you have a mental illness and there's something really wrong with you, that's something to be ashamed of. 

03:53
Whereas in this day and age, depression, anxiety even if we don't clinically meet the definition for a diagnosis, we're still going to have those times when we're going to feel sad, we're going to feel unmotivated, we're going to feel concerned about the future, and so I think it's helpful to be able to access those resources that can help us to live better, which is why I'm glad I can stand in the gap. I've had my foot in the church world. It's still in the church world, no more full time, but on the front lines of mental health and the vast majority of my folks if you saw them walking down the road, you would never know that they needed to come to counseling. 

04:41 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
I think that that is one of the things that I have also discovered that as a church community, as you know, the body of Christ, we there is this group thought in some areas where, as a believer, we should not have these mental issues and we don't talk about it. And what we're saying is that when we come to Christ and we lay it at His feet, that everything will be cleared off. But we are humans, right, and we struggle with what we've had to deal with in the past. I know I have issues that, because of my past and the journey that I have been through, that I need to work on consistently, and it's not an overnight cure. And I believe that there will be people that will struggle with certain things, whether it's a chemical reaction, whether it's something that was put in there through childhood trauma or something that they have experienced in their journey of life. And what we're saying is there's a stigma against feelings, against you know what we experience and feel, and we don't talk about it anymore. There's no discussion. It's take it to the Lord in prayer or keep quiet about it and deal with it. 

06:17
And how do we, as a church family, support people? How do we make it so that they feel comfortable to go to a pastor, to go to the leadership of a church and say, look, I'm struggling, I need help. I don't know what that help is or what it looks like. Right, because I know I didn't know what that help looked like. I didn't know I could turn to someone when I was dealing with my issues. How do we make it so that in the church family, in our churches, we make it easy for you know, church family members to come and say I'm struggling, what do I do? What's my next step? 

07:04 - David Brannock (Guest)
It is imperative that pastors and other top leaders in the church be able to say it is okay if you are struggling to seek help. Seeking help is not a sign of weakness, it does not mean it is a lack of faith, it is a sign of strength. Because I think people one of the struggles that I see and that I hear is people of faith who do come into my office and they feel like gosh. You know, if my church knew I was here, I would be outcast almost or no, that's you or they feel like well, gosh. God must think that my faith is weak. They feel that themselves, even if nobody is telling that. And I go back to in Isaiah, chapter 9, verse 6, I believe it is the four different titles that are used when talking about the coming Messiah. Wonderful counselor, mighty. 

08:20
God everlasting father, prince of peace. But the first one is wonderful counselor. And so I hold on to that verse and say counseling is God's idea. That God knew when sin entered the world that we would have troubles in our minds as well as our bodies and spirits. And the Holy Spirit, jesus, the Holy Spirit, god, is the perfect counselor. But just as God has called doctors to heal the body, god calls counselors to help heal the mind. So I think when pastors and other top leaders can say things, communicate in verbal and written form, it's okay word of mouth. Then people can feel like they're not going to be shamed, they're not going to be looked down upon, they're not going to be looked down as gosh. 

09:15
If you're struggling with this, does this mean that you are, you know, building a bomb in your basement? No, the vast majority of people who deal with mental health issues, you know, are not a danger, and somebody can go through stuff for a season. You know we also confuse that I mean somebody can have a. Just because I have the flu or have COVID doesn't mean I have it for the rest of my life. I can have it for a season to get better. 

09:42 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
It's not our identity, we're just going through it. 

09:46 - David Brannock (Guest)
Thank you for pointing that out. Yes, and I've told clients that you are not PTSD, you suffer the effects of post traumatic stress disorder, but you are not your diagnosis, you are not the problem. And to also speak out to say, especially from men, there's the overwhelming majority of people I see are women because men we have been conditioned, we've been taught that the only acceptable emotion we can express is anger, the only acceptable negative emotion we can express is anger. 

10:28
You know we can express happiness, joy, all of that. But as far as you know, anger, okay that's. But anger is a surface level emotion we need to communicate, it's okay to let's talk about what's underneath that. What is the hurt, what is the feeling disrespected, whatever it is that's fueling that, and let's deal with that, because it's not going to go away on its own. 

10:57 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Do you think that pastors are equipped to deal with some of these emotional and mental issues that we are seeing in in this time, in this generation? 

11:14 - David Brannock (Guest)
I would say the vast majority are not, and I in no way mean that as a slam against those who are pastors. I'm speaking from my own experience when, when I started pastoring back in the 1990s, I would always tell folks when they came to me for for counseling, I say I am not a trained counselor, I am not a licensed counselor. I provide pastoral care. 

11:42
I will talk to you, I will listen, I will share scripture, I will pray for you, pray with you, but if what they needed was above what I could offer, I would refer them to a place where they had people who were specifically trained. I know as a trained clinician and some of what I see, I mean it's challenging and I have to stay on my toes, keep up with research and so, with all of the many, many, many duties that a pastor has, I just don't see how it's possible without specialized training, how the average pastor could. I mean they can be excellent at pastoral care, they can listen and all of that. But there comes a point when it's like what you need is beyond what I can give. Just like you know, you go to your primary care physician and then you end up being referred to a specialist. Same difference. There's no shame in that, it's just somebody who is better equipped. 

12:39 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
I think we need to allow our pastors to be able to speak up and say look, I've done my pastoral duty. Now you need, you know, something different. You need to go to this and that there is no stigma on that. It doesn't mean that you, you know you have something wrong with you. It's just over and above what a pastor of a church has the skills to deal with. I think we need to start at that level. You know where pastors are, given that, you know the permission, if you want to call it, to say I'm not equipped for this, someone else needs to help you on this. There's another question here that just for clarification in your eyes, is there a difference between therapy and counseling, because I see that sometimes we use them interchangeably. Is it interchangeable, or is there a difference between seeing a counselor and seeing a therapist? 

13:57 - David Brannock (Guest)
That is a really interesting question. I typically use those terms interchangeably. Now I'm sure that you could find other colleagues of mine who would say now there is a distinct difference. One reason that I use the term therapist is because there are different kinds of counseling. You know, you can have a camp counselor, you can have a career counselor, you can have different kinds of counseling. But as far as as a licensed professional counselor, then I can get really into the therapy with the thoughts and the feelings. So I'd say there is a difference. But to me I don't really. I will use both terms interchangeably, even though there is a distinction. Um, because some people are more familiar with the term counseling, some are more familiar with the terms therapy, right or wrong, whether I'm doing it right or not, I use both. 

15:04 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Right. I know that therapist tends to have a little bit more of a negative um connotation, so to speak, in the church environment. I think we I think we've heard about it and used it so much within the church and you know circles that I think we tend to use that more often. I know that someone had explained to me recently that a therapist will, will provide you the tools and the healing methods to deal with certain issues that you have collected over the years, whereas a counselor will tell you and direct you and and I could be wrong with remembering what they said but the counselor was someone who gave you the advice and said, okay, now go in and do this, whereas one was giving you maybe the tools to deal with it and one is more sort of giving you answers. And I could be wrong, but this is sort of what I got from what he said to me. 

16:13 - David Brannock (Guest)
So that that is it. Okay, uh, I've done both. I mean, the goal is to provide tools that are stuff you know, we don't fix people, we can't fix anyone Right but to give the tools. But then, but they in the process of giving tools, there are times when we will be give some more direct advice in a particular situation. So, again, interchangeably, and circling back just as far as the, the, the negative connotation of therapy in the church. Interesting that mental health therapy has a negative connotation, but yet physical therapy and occupational therapy, uh, that does not have a negative connotation, uh, at least from a stigma in the church. 

17:03
So, that's a curious as to why, but when you deal with the mind and not the body, therapy is all of a sudden bad or something to be avoided. 

17:15 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Yeah, I wonder. You know, like I grew up in the church I'm a pastor's kid and and even before my dad became a pastor you know seeing the whole gamut and the changes over the last 50, 60 years of where we were at one time. You know where we didn't talk about things from behind close doors. You know marital issues, child abuse, and I think what we're doing is allowing generations of believers and families to think that they are very unique to a situation, whereas there are others out there in the church community dealing with certain issues and as the number grows, there's more support. There should be more support with one another, and you know one of the things I find that is very difficult to deal with in churches is divorce, and you know the first thing that comes out of you know the congregation's mouth. It could be in all sincerity, in love, in in being wanting to support, and the leadership is. You need to change yourself. You need to. You know work through it without ever listening to what the person may be dealing with and the danger of pushing people into certain and into a corner without us understanding what they have been dealing with, and I think that this is true for any situation. If somebody is depressed, why is that? Why can we not talk about it? I don't know. You know, like in my mind, I don't understand this. 

19:11
I've heard it that if you're, you know and we said this right out from out of the gate that it's because you know, as children of God, we need to have all of that under control. You know we're saved and now everything is perfect, and I have yet to find a verse that everything is perfect and honky dory in our lives, if anything, we we're dealing with Satan coming in, you know, trying to knock us off our feet, and we're dealing with other issues. You know, from around us, around the world. Right, the world is inundating us with all kinds of stuff. I don't know. I really wish there was a way to to support our church family in this. How do we do that? Is there a way to do that? We said that you know, maybe we need to give our pastors permission, or, you know, the, the, the training, to say I'm not qualified for this as a church family member. How can I help someone? Is there a way for me to support them and encourage them to seek outside help as well? 

20:31 - David Brannock (Guest)
Well, so like if, if you saw somebody else in the church, how could you support them? 

20:37
Well, for one thing is is I'm concerned for you and let's find a way to to have some, some places where you could look. Perhaps the pastor or the church would have a list of referrals of people they know and trust, of places that people could go where they feel like that the help they get would be good, that places that would even if it wasn't a distinctively Christian place, but to have people who are Christians, who you know would then support them in their, in their faith and helping them to work through that. Where it could feel, feel confident that they're they're not going to, you know, be be told something you know really weird, that that's going to be going against their faith, but they can feel confident about that. Right, it's okay, just like you know, giving you a referral for a physical issue. Here's some referrals for a a, you know, a mental or a relational issue, because you know all, all couples at some point could use some help you know doesn't mean you're about to get divorced, to just you know any long-term relationship, right? 

22:03
You know we could all sometimes we can get the communication patterns that. So I think that more education as to what therapy is. It doesn't mean that you know that, that you had a bad childhood or that your mother was the problem or anything. It could just mean that I just need some tools on how do I, how do I navigate life today because life today is just so, can be so chaotic and overwhelming. 

22:30
And um, jesus said in the gospel of John you know, in this world you will have trouble. To take heart, I've overcome the world. So, yes, we know in the end God wins, but in the meantime we're gonna have trouble. Because the enemy is still the prince of this world. You know, he's on, he's on a ticking time clock, but still he's still coming around to still and kill and kill, steal and destroy as best he can and and. 

23:00 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
I've heard it said a few times that if I go to therapy they're gonna blame it all on my mother. 

23:06 - David Brannock (Guest)
I think that is the you know the thing that we? 

23:09 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
kind of imagined, but you know, at the beginning, you, you made a point that I think we we need to really reiterate here that when we are talking about, you know, seeking counseling and therapy outside of the church, we're talking about seeking a therapist or counselor, and we'll use that interchangeably, that they are those that that are of the same faith, because I think that they're gonna give you different advice. You know, you know, just think about going to, you know, like a couples therapist. Let's, let's pick on that one area. If you go to a therapist that does not have a Faith-based practice, then you're not gonna get the advice that is biblically based. You know what God wants us to do. They're gonna give you the worldly advice, not to say that it's necessarily wrong, but it doesn't align to our Beliefs and to what God has set there for us, you know, as our, as our guide. Yeah, and I think that is one of the things that we need to keep in mind is the importance of finding help outside that is Based on our belief as well. 

24:29 - David Brannock (Guest)
Yes, but to access, Use one's faith as a, as an additional support, which you know, the foundation, you know. When God is the foundation of a marriage or a home, of a business, anywhere, you know, then that's the strongest possible foundation. So, yes, when faith is an active part of the of the sessions, absolutely yes, and then one's faith can be a real resource instead of just something that's on the shelf, that's being ignored because the professional does not have the same faith beliefs that we do. 

25:13 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Yeah, I really want to also, you know, just step away from the stigma of seeking therapy, seeking counseling for issues that we are dealing with on a day to day basis. And I know that I I had fallen into that trap of believing that it was wrong, it was not biblical, you know to, to seek help because I should be able to resolve it, you know, on my knees and be able to overcome certain things. And, yeah, I've learned the hard way that that is not so. It doesn't mean it doesn't mean that you don't have a faith or you don't have faith in the healing power of God. I believe God heals us, but we also need to put some effort into it. 

26:04
In some instances, you know I'm I am nine years sober now, you know, from my addictions. The Lord has healed me and brought me into this beautiful life that I have. But I had to take that first step. That was, that was what I mean. You know it, that is what it is. You know I took that first step as as much as I would have loved the miracle where, you know, I suddenly was, you know, free of my addiction to porn and addiction to alcohol and sex. That's not how it works. I'm a human, I need to take that first step and my first step was just going to the Lord and saying, lord, I can't anymore. And working, but I, I, I see the value of yeah, I, I'm a great proponent of, of, of seeking help. You know, go to your pastor, you know, like, start off with the very simple step, go see the pastor you know and, and and. 

27:13
If you have women leaders and if you're, whatever the case or the scenario is because every, every situation is a little different, seek it out. And you know the, the and. If you you're not getting the help you need, look. You know you have to start looking elsewhere as well. You know pastors are can be known to be making mistakes as well. 

27:36
You know, yes, yes, we, we need to to to get over that as well, that pastors are just perfect, because we also put a lot of pressure on our pastors with the thought that pastors are, you know, are just perfect. 

27:53 - David Brannock (Guest)
No, unfortunately we're not. Yeah, people who live with us are all too know that, all too well. 

28:03 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
And they're the first ones to step up to the plate. As a PK, I totally attest to that. You know, I've I've always been the one to you know, with my dad, you know, just kind of like push the envelope a little bit, you know and question him and and you know he has said over the years you know he, he is who he is as a pastor today because of all the things that he has experienced, and I think that's what it is. You know, a younger pastor will deal with things differently. A pastor of you know 30 years, like yourself and or like my dad, you know, for 40 years, is very different. You know you. You, you look at things differently and have a different perspective. 

28:48
I want to thank you so much for your time and I know this is such a. There's so much to talk about different types of therapy and you know what we should look for and whatnot, but I really wanted to talk just about the stigma of it and that we need to go out there. In closing, is there anything that I may have missed out and you would like to share with my audience? 

29:16 - David Brannock (Guest)
Wherever you go, whether it's to your pastor, whether it's to a, a licensed counselor, remember and this is not something you miss, I just want to reiterate God is the wonderful counselor and God will meet you whoever you talk to, wherever you go, and it is the Lord's healing. So it's not so much the person that ultimately, this is God doing this and so hopefully that would take some of the pressure off of, you know, having to find the person to talk to. 

29:53 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Well, my friends, thank you for listening today to out of the darkness with Hovsepian and and with David Brannock. I appreciate your time. If this is your first time here, I suggest that you go ahead and click the button and subscribe so that you know when the next episode comes out. David, I really thank you for your time today. 

30:15 - David Brannock (Guest)
Thank you so much for having me, Ruth.