Forgiving the Nightmare of Abuse with Mark Sowersby

Get ready for an amazing episode of "Out of the Darkness with Ruth Hovsepian," where we chat about healing and forgiveness after child abuse. Our guest, Mark Sowersby, who wrote "Forgiving the Nightmare," is back to share his moving story and his thoughts on the tricky act of chasing justice while accepting forgiveness through faith. This talk isn't just about scary facts; it's about bouncing back, letting go spiritually, and finding the ability to forgive even when you've been deeply hurt.

In this episode, we dig into the ongoing journey of forgiveness, the intricate connection between God's grace and the results of our actions here on earth, and how getting closer to God can help us heal. Tune in as we chat about how faith can guide us in our healing journey, helping us reclaim parts of ourselves that were lost in the hurt.

Don't miss out on this ray of hope for anyone working through their own healing journey. Discover the rich life that's possible after trauma.

🕒 Chapters:
(0:00:18) - Forgiveness and Justice After Abuse
(0:08:32) - Journey to Biblical Forgiveness
(0:19:39) - The Process of Forgiveness and Healing
(0:27:25) - Finding Healing and Forgiveness

📚 Resources mentioned:
- "Forgiving the Nightmare" by Mark Sowersby
- National Children's Alliance stats
- Forgiving the Nightmare ministry

✨ Subscribe to our channel for more episodes that shine a light in the dark and show the way to healing. Share this video with anyone who might find comfort and courage in these words.

For more info on Mark's work and his book, "Forgiving the Nightmare," check out the links below.

Connect with Pastor Mark Sowersby:
✔LinkedIn - http://linkedin.com/in/mark-sowersby-660aa1236
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✔Website - www.forgivingthenightmare.com
✔YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKS97tXY8cSiQLfRXXBCMXw
✔Book - https://www.amazon.com/Forgiving-Nightmare-Mark-Sowersby/dp/1951475186

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Transcript

00:18 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Welcome to Out of the Darkness with Ruth Hovsepian, and I'm excited to be back with another episode of Out of the Darkness. We have a great healing, which included the act of forgiveness, and at that time he began to speak about the nightmare of abuse and years of suffering he experienced in his childhood. Mark has shared a lot more about that. He's got an amazing book out for giving the nightmare that I recommend that you check out, and I'll have all of that in the bottom. But today we're talking about forgiveness and what that looks like for those that have come through abuse and trauma in their childhood or even as adults. 

01:17
Because it's not only children that are abused and I pulled out some stats Mark from National Children's Alliance and it said 600,000 children are abused in the US on a yearly basis and 15% of those are in their first year of life. 28% of these are no more than two years old. There are 247,000 plus cases that involved sexual abuse in 2022 alone, and most of these children are abused by parents. That number is staggering, mark. It is 77% are abused by parents. As a parent, that boggles my mind because, as a mama bear, I know that I would do anything to protect my children from pain, from what the world has out there. So to think about children being abused by their parents just shatters my heart to pieces and I want, as I said, to talk about this type of forgiveness, because how do we forgive? Share with us a little bit so people understand where you're coming from. What does that mean? To be able to forgive your abuser? 

03:04 - Mark Sowersby (Guest)
Well, first, thank you for having me on the show again. I'm honored to be with you You're always a blessing and an honor and thank you for not being afraid to tackle these topics, these subjects, to bring the light of the gospel and the truth to others that are listening today. So yeah, forgiveness is not an easy journey. It's not easy regardless of what our nightmare, what our trauma was. And as you read these statistics, my heart as a father, my heart as a victim, my heart as a human being, just breaks. Like you, I have four children and I can't even imagine ever allowing, seeing, knowing, going through anything that I went through that my children would go through. I'm a papa bear, you're a mama bear. So we get to this place where this horrible, horrific things happen to people and we are faced by the gospel to forgive. And how do those two things reconcile? How do we keep our psyche about us and our wits around us? How do we live in saying God, such an ugly thing has taken place that many of us rightly so wants to see punished and damned, and we curse and we would. It's just the ugliness of all humanity abused. But then we read your word and you tell us to forgive those who trespass against us. And boy, what a dichotomy that rides in a believer's mind or in a human's mind. And how do you wrestle that? So for me and this is my story I think that when you start dealing with forgiveness, you have to first deal with the abuse. 

04:38
Sometimes, as believers, we just want to automatically jump into forgiveness. It becomes our default. We know what the word tells us. We strive to be there, we want to be people that forgive because Christ forgave us. Without going through the season, without walking through the valley, without dealing with through the issues, it kind of leaves the forgiveness a little short, because we have to say you know what? I'm angry, I'm hurting, I'm sad, what happened was wrong. So, going through those emotions, going through that process, going through that psychological feeling I guess you'd call it and then being able to come through it all and say, no, I was offended, I was wrong, I was a victim, what happened to me was illegal. So in a sense, I think, how do you put those things together to say, you know what? 

05:36
Forgiveness is not saying it's okay, I can forgive because Christ forgave me, but I'm not accepting what my abuser did to me, I'm not accepting what, what that brokenness brought in my life by forgiving. I'm not saying it's okay, I'm not saying that I'm fine with it. I'm not saying, hey, we're good, those things are not what I'm saying. I'm saying I forgive you because Christ forgave me, but yet I still could seek justice. I can still seek those things that make me whole and better because of the sins of another, because of that damnation of Abuse that comes upon. 

06:16
So I think the first thing we have to realize, the two do not negate each other, do not. You know, forgiveness is not acceptance, forgive, approval, forgiveness is simply that. And Sometimes it's that slow, see that slow. A piece of forgiveness is saying I forgive you through Christ. You may not be able to speak it out to anyone, but it's in that, in that prayer closet, it starts saying God, I'm trying, help me forgive. At the same time I may be calling the police, you know, at the same time I may be seeking, I may be going to court, at the same time I may be whatever I need to do on this side, but also knowing that I can truly forgive because Christ told me to. 

06:58 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
You know, I appreciate you know, you and others who tell of their story of abuse. Because you know, this is one area where I've I've often heard people say it, it you can't forgive your abuser because forgiving them will mean that you are giving them the go-ahead or the green light to continue because you forgive them. And and it is hard, you know, for someone that has an experience that type of abuse to be able to, you know to, to give them the words that they need. And I am, you know, and I Appreciate what you said that you know, forgiveness does not mean that we are not seeking justice for what has happened. And you know, I've had other people say to me and I don't know how you respond to this, but I didn't know how to respond was they said, well, justice is not mine, it's the Lord's, and I think that's the whole other spectrum, end of the spectrum, where you have those that say, well, I can't forgive because it gives them the green light to go ahead. And then there's others that say I forgive them and I'm not gonna seek, you know I'm not gonna look for justice or, you know, legal punishment for this person, for what they are doing, because it's not mine to do, but the Lord's. 

08:31
And you know, I think, we go from one extreme to the other extreme of this and there has to be Somewhere in the middle which is biblical. What does the Lord tell us? You know what is our? You know how do we treat this. It's such a Well, a difficult. 

08:51 - Mark Sowersby (Guest)
You're diving into, like some really deep theological waters, right, yeah, because we know that by the grace of God, our sins are forgiven, right, thank God, all of us. You know God is forgiven every sin, like the thief on the cross. Remember me today we're, our sins are forgiven, but unfortunately there's consequences to our sin and there's always gonna be a consequence to our sin. Now, Ultimately, that consequence was nailed to the cross and by the blood of Jesus Christ on the day of redemption, when the trumpet blows, we're with Christ in heaven, but here on this earth there's prices we need to pay. Not because we're being punished, because it's the result of God's not damning us and set us apart, say why I gotta punish you harder. No, the result of our sins comes with consequences and that's no matter what in life. There's consequences. 

09:43
So, yeah, with somebody, does that evil act of abuse like, like happened to us and mine and my childhood, when the, when the man stole my innocence, when he raped my body, sold me to others, I Could tell him I forgive him, but yet there's still a consequence. 

09:59
Now God is the one that hands out justice and hands out consequences, not us. But we also live in a society that we believe has been. It's not far, it's not perfect. It's, you know, as it's home, the society which we believe God, god gives us, these societies we live in, that says when this act happens, when this takes place, there's justice for those that have been abused and victim. So, in the sense, how you know, I could say I forgive you and I truly can forgive you, but then the consequence of that sin may lead you to prison, may lead you to bankruptcy, may lead you to there's many and again, I'm speaking just in general on that way, and the great thing is if God is with us during those consequences. God is with us in those trials, god is with us in the valleys and on the mountaintops, but it does not, you know, jonah still got swallowed by a whale. 

11:02 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
You know, I think also yeah, it was a big fish, you know. I think, though, that there's this element of healing and, and when those of us that have gone through trauma in the past come through the healing and we are on the other side of healing, we can look back and see things and be, and we talk about those traumas in a very different way, like I can talk about it and and not, you know, like in my. In my instance, I can talk about it as though I watched a movie and I'm I'm just telling the plot line of it, and I recently was told by a therapist that said when you talk, I know you've come through to the other side and you're ready to help other people because you've healed. Just in the way you word things, you know, go figure, they can tell from it. 

12:08
But I know in my heart that, even though I thought I had forgiven certain people in my life, it was a mental kind of forgiveness and not the forgiveness that the Lord is telling us or the Bible is telling us. That forgiveness came only when I took my burden to the Lord and was healed from the past, yes, and when I said, lord, I can now forgive this person. Wow, I understand what forgiveness means. This burden rolled off my shoulders. Mark, I can't explain that feeling. It was, yeah, it was the. It was the oddest feeling because I didn't know I was carrying that burden and yet the moment it, it fell off my you know that sort of that story it falling like pilgrims progress right. 

13:11
The burden that he carried. When it fell off my shoulders, I went aha, that was the burden I had been carrying around for a long time, unbeknownst to me, and I understand that journey. 

13:29 - Mark Sowersby (Guest)
You know, I think you articulate it very well, but I can express many of those same feelings as I look back on and past. It's like watching a movie and talking about the narrative and all those parts of it. But yes, I agree with you, it's when we go to Christ. And that's why I said earlier, this is our story, this is mine. I didn't start my journey by saying, god, I want to forgive the man who raped me, right? I started my journey saying God, I want to know you. And that's really where I started. I didn't start by trying to figure out the nuances between forgiveness and you know, I'm not that smart, I'm not that brave, I'm not that good. I just wanted to know God. And here I am on a journey in life up and down left and right, victories and failures, mistakes and blessings and everything in between. 

14:23
And in that journey I'm just following God and I'm learning the nature of God, I'm learning the character, I'm learning the grace, I'm learning the mercy, I'm reading his word, I'm hearing his voice. If you would in that, my heart of hearts. You know, as God becomes bigger in my life, the hurt, every hurt, starts becoming smaller. Not that it went away, it just started to become smaller because God started to become bigger. And then God would again challenge me to say forgive and at one time God asked me to forgive. I say no way, god, I want my abuser to go to hell. You created hell for my abuser because he raped me and he beat me and he stole so much from me. 

15:09
But the more of God's nature, the more of God's grace, the more I saw his face you know, if you would, I didn't ever the more I knew God, the more those things that once consumed me, like anger and justification and all those things once it consumed me, seem to be so small. 

15:26
Because now I want to be consumed by God and it's kind of keeping my eyes on the Lord and as I keep my eyes on the Lord, all those other things not that they're easy, but become doable in Christ, and I think that's that's where I stand is that, yeah, I was full of rage and anger and I wanted my revenge and I was mad because of everything, not just the body and the pound of flesh, but the psyche and the insecurities and everything that was left by my abuse, and I wanted I just want to be fixed overnight, and I wasn't. But in the journey of letting God become bigger, I began to see forgiveness, not through my perspective, but through Christ's grace, but through Christ's perspective and realizing that I'm a sinner and my sins rejected me, that I am. You know that I am just a man with clay feet and a forked tongue, but by the grace of God, there I go and in God said now can you pour that out into others? And eventually you say, yeah, that's your user. 

16:40 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
And you know I think this may be a little um, I don't know controversial if I say it, because you know, I've heard often times it being said that forgiveness is your first step in in healing. Now, when I look at what we are saying and what I went through, I needed to work on my healing and what you said is work on ourselves first, you know, bringing ourselves to the Lord, working on ourselves, and in that process then we understand what, what forgiveness is. Forgiveness is not necessarily forgetting or giving them the green light to continue again. It just it's a biblical forgiveness that our, our culture does not understand what that forgiveness is about. And I think that's the difference, right, when we look at forgiveness from the biblical point of view or we look at forgiveness from the world's point of view, they're different. You know it's a whole different thing. You know I, I know, um, I spoke to one woman who said you know, I forgave my abuser, but that abuser is not in my life any longer. 

18:07
She said forgiving them did not mean that I opened the door to my life and said come on in. You know, she said God has given me discernment, god has helped me understand what it is and what I need to do as a child of God, to forgive and forgiving. I have forgiven that person, but that person is not of in inside of my everyday life, because this is a family member. Sure, sure, I totally respect that because, as you said, she did the work on herself first, before being able to step out and do the next, whatever it is that she had to do, you know, in my book Forgiven the Nightmare, I actually kind of talk a little bit about the journey of the five principles and of what forgiveness is and what it isn't, and what forgiveness isn't forgiven. 

19:08 - Mark Sowersby (Guest)
Forget we don't, god forgets. How could we forget these traumas? So you know, forgiveness again is not forgiven, but you could still forgive. It's having safe boundaries. Like you said, my abuser was a family member, or my mother's husband, but you know, it's always in our family and I had to have boundaries. I had boundaries among my mom, not because I was angry, you know, even after, because she was just, she was just hurting her life and that hurt spilled out and others. I had to have boundaries. 

19:38
Forgiveness is not a one time event. You know, sometimes a different emotions rise up, different memories rise up. You know a trigger, a smell, a place, a sound may rise up and at that moment I have to cling and say God, by the name of Jesus, I stand on this rock of forgiveness. And so it's not a one time event. You can forgive often and more times, because you're just really releasing and saying God, I put this person in your hands and you're a righteous and good judge and you will judge far better than I ever can. So my forgiveness is me putting them in God's hand and saying, god, they're yours, god, and having those boundaries and again saying not approving of what they did not, supporting of what they did not, that you know, damning it as much as it is, but also saying, god, I've been set free from forgiveness. 

20:33
The unforgiveness was the poison of my life. The unforgiveness gave my abuser a link to me. I woke up every day remembering thinking about my abuser. We were connected. He had space in my heart, in my head and in my life, and the unforgiveness and that, that unforgiveness just kept them there. And when I forgave it it severed that connection and it almost turned my hate into into just pity. You know, oh, how sorrowful. And may God, may God have your way. 

21:11 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
And you know that that statement about space in your head or in your heart, that is so true because, honestly, when we, when we have not worked through things and we have not forgiven, they take up space in our everyday life and that is so damaging to us. And you know the other person who may you know whether it's your abuse, or someone who, emotionally, has abused you or sexually abused you, or someone who has hurt you for different. You know, in so many different ways. When we let them take up space in our life, we're not allowing, we're not, we don't have an, we haven't opened up the space for the Lord to come in, for the Holy Spirit to be part of us, and the other person doesn't even know that they're taking up all this space in your head. You're the one that is having to deal with all these thoughts and emotions. So, yes, it's a cleansing process that we go and I think that that is what healing really means. You know, like I know people. 

22:28
I had one person say, oh, you know, these are just, you know key words, or you know words that we use. You know trauma and healing. Oh, you know, like it's all, it's just lingo. No, because healing has to be done and healing is like a wound and if you cut yourself and that you know every time that that it scabs over, you pick at the scab, you're never allowing it to heal right, it just does its healing. You're pulling the scab back and but it has to get to that point where it's healed. And if you do pick at that scab, it's healed on the bottom because the scab remained there Until it healed underneath, and I think that this is huge. 

23:27 - Mark Sowersby (Guest)
I agree with you. I agree with you. It's that process of healing and and where can we find that? But only in Christ. And I think it's a lot about perspective. You know, the unforgiveness kept that, that issue before me 24 seven. I couldn't, I couldn't close my eyes and not see it. I could never find peace in my ears without hearing it. It was always about me. You know, I grew up in the eighties and, and you know, in America we have a channel called PBS, the public public channel, and there was a guy on that channel called Bob Ross. I don't know if you guys had a big kid with that. Yeah, love this guy. 

24:04 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Yes. 

24:06 - Mark Sowersby (Guest)
So we've come home from high school and we didn't have 158 channels, we had like three, and PBS was one of them, and there would be Bob painting his, his masterpiece. Remember, happy little mistake, yes, yes, happy little mistake. And at the end of almost every picture, you know, after this masterpiece, it was, you know this, this kid who didn't know anything about art. Watch this man in a half hour, paint this Picasso. You know, in my mind he would take. He would usually put a tree in the middle of his painting. Yep, I don't know if you remember that, but he'd paint a cabin, a waterfall, yep, he'd paint something, a lake, and then, right about like two minutes before the show was over, he'd paint a tree in the middle of it. And I come to find out what he was doing in art. He was changing the perspective. He was taking the subject and moving it back. You'll buy placing that tree. Now, he was giving depth to his picture so the one who saw it could see the main, the subject, further away. 

25:10
And I thought about that and I prayed on that and the Lord said to me in my heart of hearts he said, mark, when you put the cross in front of that pain. 

25:20
When you put the cross in front of your abuser, when you put the cross in front of the hurt, when you put the cross in front of the sorrow, it doesn't take it away, but it pushes it back. It gives you a a different perspective and, I think, healing. I had to get that different perspective because it was so much here all the time, always about me. I couldn't go anywhere without the reminder of that, what this abuser did to me, the words of my abuser calling me a loser and fat and stupid and ugly, and was always, always about me. When you put the cross before me, even though there's still times where the pain shouted out, even though there's times where they're hurt shouted out, my perspective began to change and in that God became bigger, greater, stronger, and through that was I able to say I can forgive those who trespass against me, because I couldn't do it on my own strength, I couldn't do it in my own might, and as I began to get freer, I was able to give even more and more and more. 

26:37 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
Yeah, you were allowing your abuser to hurt you over and over and over again on a daily basis, even though they were no longer, you know, actually doing that. You know, Mark, can you? Can you give the listener who is struggling with their own pain, with their own past abuse of you know, whatever that abuse look like, you know everybody's on a journey. Everybody is coming at it from a different place. What words of advice can you give them? What hope can you give them? Today, you know that there is a hope for them, for healing and forgiveness. 

27:18 - Mark Sowersby (Guest)
You know it's going to sound cliche-ish because we hear it all the time but God loves you. God loves you. And it's hard for those of us that have been so broken whatever caused that abuse when that trauma that wants to lie to us and say to us you know you're nothing but trash, but God does love us and even though we've had these horrible and horrific experiences, you know we're trying to wrestle with where God, where were you? And if you're real, why? And you know, and even those of us who have fine questions to ask, real questions to ask, know that God loves you and he's there for you and you're not alone. 

27:57
There's people like Ruth and I and countless others that have been through these stories, that are looking back and saying, listen, there's a way out, there's a way of hope that that pain doesn't have to be your identity, that pain doesn't have to be what you're all about. You can have life, and life more abundant. And that's not about a wallet or a new car or a jet, it's about having life. That's that's quality, and falling in love and laughing and not. You know, there'll be a day when you realize, hey, I haven't thought about my abuser this week and I haven't thought about my pain, this, this, today, and you'll find out. It becomes longer and longer and I think, ruth, I can say we're just regular people. You know, there's nothing special Except Jesus, and if we can do that, he can call anybody out. I would say amen. 

28:49 - Ruth Hovsepian (Host)
So amen to that. Yeah, mark, I want to thank you so much for taking the time out to be with us again today and to my listeners if you are looking for healing and forgiveness and freedom, go to the show notes and I'll have a link there for Mark's ministry, called Forgiving the Nightmare, and get a hold of his book. It's an awesome read. It's just it's it's just an amazing story and thank you, mark, for for sharing with us. 

29:20 - Mark Sowersby (Guest)
Thank you for having me, Ruth. God bless you.