Unlock the secret to leaving a legacy that will stand the test of time. Tom Tonkins is the CEO and founder of the Conservatory Group, providing high touch services to business executives to help them improve themselves, their teams, and their environment. He is currently writing a book entitled "Sincerely Yours" which explores the difference between authenticity and sincerity in relationship building.
SHOW NOTES
In this episode, Tom Tonkin, Founder of The Conservatory Group, an organization that provides high-touch services to business executives that want to improve themselves, their teams, and their environment.
In this episode, you will learn the following:
"What got you here is not what is going to get you there. And so the term recovering executive is one that says, I've kind of been around the block a few times, and I've made a few mistakes, and I've learned from those mistakes, but it does take a toll on you after a while."
Get in touch with Tom:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drtomtonkin/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrTomTonkin
Website: https://salesconservatory.com/
Get in touch with Sheri:
Schedule your Free Clarity Call! calendly.com/sherimiterco/dycclaritycall
Get the Free 5 to Thrive- Strengths Quick Reference Guide: https://bit.ly/Your5toThrive
Lets be friends on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/sherimiterco
Join our Discovering Your Calling Facebook Community: https://bit.ly/DYCFBGroup
Head over to https://www.sherimiterco.com/
Connect or work with Sheri - I'd love to hear from you!
Ready to learn more about YOUR strengths or the Discovering Your Calling Academy?
Book a Coffee & Connect Call
Send me a Direct Message - https://m.me/sheri.miter
Social Media - @SheriMiter
Website - www.sherimiterco.com
Do you have questions or thoughts about this episode, or do you have a true-calling story you'd like to share?
Email - sheri@sherimiterco.com
Learn more about Clifton Strengths Clifton Strengths Assessment.
Matthew 5:14-16 is the inspiration for this podcast.
Gallup®, Clifton StrengthsFinder®, StrengthsFinder®, the 34 Clifton StrengthsFinder® theme names, and the 10 Entrepreneurial StrengthsFinder® theme names are trademarks of Gallup, Inc.
Unlock the secret to leaving a legacy that will stand the test of time. Tom Tonkins is the CEO and founder of the Conservatory Group, providing high touch services to business executives to help them improve themselves, their teams, and their environment. He is currently writing a book entitled "Sincerely Yours" which explores the difference between authenticity and sincerity in relationship building.
SHOW NOTES
In this episode, Tom Tonkin, Founder of The Conservatory Group, an organization that provides high-touch services to business executives that want to improve themselves, their teams, and their environment.
In this episode, you will learn the following:
"What got you here is not what is going to get you there. And so the term recovering executive is one that says, I've kind of been around the block a few times, and I've made a few mistakes, and I've learned from those mistakes, but it does take a toll on you after a while."
Get in touch with Tom:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drtomtonkin/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrTomTonkin
Website: https://salesconservatory.com/
Get in touch with Sheri:
Schedule your Free Clarity Call! calendly.com/sherimiterco/dycclaritycall
Get the Free 5 to Thrive- Strengths Quick Reference Guide: https://bit.ly/Your5toThrive
Lets be friends on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/sherimiterco
Join our Discovering Your Calling Facebook Community: https://bit.ly/DYCFBGroup
Head over to https://www.sherimiterco.com/
Connect or work with Sheri - I'd love to hear from you!
Ready to learn more about YOUR strengths or the Discovering Your Calling Academy?
Book a Coffee & Connect Call
Send me a Direct Message - https://m.me/sheri.miter
Social Media - @SheriMiter
Website - www.sherimiterco.com
Do you have questions or thoughts about this episode, or do you have a true-calling story you'd like to share?
Email - sheri@sherimiterco.com
Learn more about Clifton Strengths Clifton Strengths Assessment.
Matthew 5:14-16 is the inspiration for this podcast.
Gallup®, Clifton StrengthsFinder®, StrengthsFinder®, the 34 Clifton StrengthsFinder® theme names, and the 10 Entrepreneurial StrengthsFinder® theme names are trademarks of Gallup, Inc.
00:00:00 Sheri: This is one of the most insightful episodes I've had the privilege of being a part of. My guest, a self proclaimed recovering executive, Tom Tonkin, and I talked about topics like leaving a legacy, authenticity versus sincerity, fixing weaknesses, and, of course, my favorite, CliftonStrengths. You've got to listen to this entire podcast. It is full of so much wisdom, so many insights. Before we jump into it, let me just tell you a little bit more about Tom Tonkin. He is the CEO and founder of the Conservatory Group. This organization provides high touch services to business executives that want to improve themselves, their teams, and their environment. And in case you're curious, Tom's top five are ideation, input, activator, intellection, and strategic. That's why this was such an insightful conversation. Enjoy.
00:01:10 Sheri: Welcome to the Discovering Your Calling podcast. I'm your host, Sheri Miter. I'm here to help you unleash your strengths and get clarity on your calling. I believe when you find your purpose in life, fulfillment, joy and success will follow. If you're ready, pop in those earbuds, hit that follow button, and join me on this journey toward discovering your calling.
00:01:36 Sheri: Well, welcome, Tom, to our discussion here to our show, and thank you for being willing to do some morphing with us, as we are now really guiding people to dive into their strengths and to discover their calling and the different paths that we can go on so that we can live the best life possible.
00:01:57 Tom: Excellent.
00:01:58 Sheri: And we've already been having some good discussion before we hit the record button, and I'm really excited to go a little deeper into the stories you already started. You were teasing it out, teasing me a little bit with what's coming next. So I'm really excited to get into this conversation, but why don't you tell the audience a little bit about who you are?
00:02:18 Tom: Well, Sheri, thanks for having me on the show. And it's going to be fun and exciting to just chat about things that I know you and I both have a passion for. We've talked about passion already. I have a tagline of a recovering executive many, many years in corporate America, and arguably still I am, obviously. But I'm talking more from a structural perspective and all that that comes with it. All the experience, all the failures, all the successes that get all wrapped up and the self awareness that comes with it. And so I'm thinking, “How can I bottle that up and maybe shortcut some of that for certain people?” So I do a lot of consulting around sales enablement. I do management consulting. And I also do Diversity, Equity, Inclusion type of consulting because I've been in that space a very long time, even before it turned into what it is now from a social movement and a lot of research in that area. So, again, I think pretty much what you're doing here with your podcast, just bottling things up, getting people's opinions to see how we can become better.
00:03:22 Sheri: Right. I love that, and I did love. I was going to ask you about that recovering executive, actually. Can you go a little bit more on that? What does that really mean, your recovering executive? And I asked because I know a lot of people I work with are in executive positions right now, and they're trying to get out of it. It's not their calling anymore.
00:03:44 Tom: Yeah. And again, I think everyone's got a season. I mean, I believe that what got you here is not what is going to get you there. And so the term recovering executive is one that says, “I've been around the block a few times, and I've made a few mistakes, and I've learned from those mistakes.” But it does take a toll on you after a while. Decision making. I can get into all sorts of interesting research, but decision making and willpower, those are all limited. We wake up in the morning with X amount of units of willpower, let's say. And we have to use them wisely. And we use them throughout the day. And decisions are part of that. And working out is part of that.
00:04:27 Tom: The idea here is that towards the end of the day, you run out of willpower type of points, for lack of a better term, and you do that for 30 years. It takes a toll on you. And so you're like, ‘Well, I'm not necessarily done or not necessarily ready to hang it up,” if you will. But at the same time, it's a season in life that you go through. I mean, one of the introspectives that I've had or reflections that I've had lately is I'm not that old. But at the same time, I am thinking of my legacy. I'm thinking about, “What is it that I'm going to do that's going to stay here and continue to reap goodness while I'm done,” whether it be retired or onto the next life kind of thing. And it starts now because I think, again, looking at the experience and all that I've reaped over the many years, I think it's time to give back.
00:05:23 Sheri: Yeah. I know, and we said this in the opening. We can go in a lot of different directions, and I think we're about to take another little path that maybe we weren't going to go on. But I'm curious now on, that of leaving a legacy. I love that thought. What ways are you thinking you're going to do that?
00:05:41 Tom: Well, I think the first way is whatever knowledge or expertise that I have gained over these several years and a PhD student at one point, the idea, the tagline there was standing on the shoulders of giants, right? So much of the research that goes on is based upon research that has happened in the past, and that informs how you move forward in the next set of research. The people before us had to do what they did, but we also have to do what we do to move and advance and progress whatever is we're trying to learn from. So that's part of it is my legacy, is what are the things that I can do in research, in practice as well, that would live on and have other people, for lack of a better term, stand on my shoulders and be able to move forward with whatever they think they need to move forward in the future.
00:06:34 Tom: So I think that's part of what you do. I think there's also the learnings and the mentoring, the coaches, the one on ones, the example that you might set, whether it be for your clients but for your children or for your friends. And what does your obituary, your epitaph read? And you have to start thinking about that because it becomes a checklist. We'll find out a little bit about my strengths, and everybody can chuckle why he used that term because it describes exactly who I am. So I mean, I think that's the leaving the legacy part, and I do think it's a broad net. It's not just professional but obviously personal.
00:07:20 Sheri: Yeah, I love that. We have a large family so that legacy of relationships and the example that we set in relationships and our intellect and everything else. And I know one of the other legacies you're leaving is you are in the process of writing a book, correct?
00:07:39 Tom: I am. And that's a big one. That's a big one because it is my life's work. And the book is called, at least the working title, got to deal with the publishers at one point. But it's called Sincerely Yours, and it really takes a look at sincerity as a relationship construct. It all started with me way back in the early 2000s, maybe the late 19th, previous century, looking at authenticity. I was all in on authenticity. I thought authenticity was great. I thought everybody should be authentic. And so I dove into it. I got into the literature. I interviewed. I did assessments. I did all this other stuff. I'm going to tell you and the gotcha here is, each time I did that, I look back and say, “I'm not necessarily sure that authenticity is the right construct for relationship building.”
00:08:36 Tom: And throughout my entire academic life and till now, I continue doing to the point that my dissertation was a comparison between authenticity and sincerity to find out again what the similarities and differences are between those two constructs as it pertains to leadership relationships. And I quickly came to find out that authenticity has its place. But I guess I'm not an advocate of authenticity when it comes down to building relationships between two people. And I'm documenting that the book is going to be interesting because it's got exercises in it. I want to make it real practical. One of the things that I am known for is taking wonky academic wording and literature and turn it into something that somebody can do tomorrow. And that's how the book is styled. There's three dimensions in Sincerity. I talk about each one of them, give you exercises, give you a perspective. Yeah. Chalk that up into the legacy column.
00:09:39 Sheri: Yeah. I think anytime you're writing a book that hopefully will last forever. It's there.
00:09:45 Tom: Certainly, one book that it's got a perspective here in the year 2022, that will last. And people will read and look. And then maybe they'll come up with some different idea. And they'll stand on that. I mean, a lot of my perspective, as I research, there's a book called Authenticity and Sincerity, written in 1972 by a gentleman, Lionel Trilling. And that book basically is an advocacy for authenticity. 1972, I'm sure it was, right? So as cultures and things change and research changes, literally 50 years later, and I'm thinking about it the other way around. Maybe 50 years from now, they'll think a bit differently as well. And that is part of the ongoing progress that I want to leave behind.
00:10:29 Sheri: Right. And we might come back to the book because I do have some more questions about the book and the difference between authenticity and sincerity. Can't say those two words together five times fast, right?
00:10:41 Tom: I have a lot of practice when I went to [dissertations].
00:10:46 Sheri: But let's go back a little bit to your top five talent themes. And as a certified coach, it's so fun for me because I saw here. I was like, “Oh, yeah, there's this intellect shining. There's the ideation. There's a little strategic.” It's so fun for me to pick up on the clues of people's top five themes. But I'm curious. How were you first introduced to the CliftonStrengths or StrengthsFinder as a lot of people know it?
00:11:16 Tom: Well, it was a problem looking for an answer. So we have to take a running start here a little bit. So as I said earlier, I was a musician, and I started when I was very young. I started when I was 13 and have been so playing ever since. My perspective at the time was, if I were good, if I was great, if I was the best, then fame and fortune would follow. And everything would be great. And it all just worked out. So, Tom, all you got to do is just practice, practice, practice. Learn. Make mistakes. Get help.
00:11:54 Sheri: Put your 10,000 hours in, right?
00:11:56 Tom: Exactly. And then all this other stuff would just show. Well, that didn't work. I was a decent player. I would say above average and all this. It's got to be a point. But it really didn't do what I thought it would do. Fast forward into my professional life, you were given roles and tasks. You're an individual contributor. You start your career. Again, that same premise was, I was just the best at all of these tasks. If I just got them all right, I would get promoted and get a lot of money and be successful. Well, that didn't work. So finally I'm thinking, “Why is it that I have this in my mind? Why is it that I have to be detailed and analytical and research centric?” This is not doing anything.
00:12:50 Tom: As a matter of fact, I was a math major when I started at work because I thought, mathematics, science, STEM, get that right, and all this stuff will be fine. It got to be a point where I then started looking for assessments or self awareness and reflection, because apparently I don't really know what I'm doing. And I challenge you to pick an assessment that I haven't taken. And I looked at it, and obviously strength was one of them. I probably have four or five times I've taken this in the last 15 years or so over a period of time. By the way, they don't really change too much. Maybe the order, but that's about it. But that's how I got introduced. And it made sense to spend time on the strength that I have, but to not misplace it because that's what I was doing, right? I was taking these strengths and misplacing them.
00:13:45 Tom: And so I actually changed my major. I went back to school. I got an Organizational Behavior Bachelor's. I got an Organizational Leadership Master’s as well as a PhD in this because what I did was I moved away from what the analytical hard skill type stuff, and I moved over to the behavioral social science perspective because I thought that that was the thing that I was missing. Because the analytical stuff, you can't beat it out of me. It's just there. So I didn't think I needed to feed that. And I ended up being a statistician when I went to social science, right, instead of calculus and all of that in mathematics. I ended up finding statistics and everything there in the social science world.
00:14:28 Tom: And once I had a perspective of self awareness, of the fact that these were my strengths that were innate, no one told me to do this. That self awareness really kicked in for me. And I've been a fan ever since because it gives me a perspective of understanding who I am and then be able to, again, work on my strengths. But I would take it a step further to say, “Not misplace my strengths when they're not there.” For example, I also know my weaknesses. My weaknesses are around communications and things along those lines. And so what I would do is, if there was a scenario or situation, where it was more people oriented, I'd go get help. Because I know on my list of strengths that that's towards the bottom. So don't go it alone. Go find some help. And having that self awareness allows you to understand how to call on your resources when you need them.
00:15:22 Sheri: Right? I love that. And just to let everybody know so Tom's Top five are ideation, input, activator, intellection, and strategic. And going to come back to those again in a minute. But I want to address what you said about knowing what your weaknesses are. And we call them your areas of lesser strength because they're not really a weakness unless they get in the way.
00:15:48 Tom: And then I used weakness on purpose on that term because you're correct. I used it on purpose because again, the theme here of this little thing is not necessarily knowing, which that's a good thing, but also the misuse of them in the context of the situation where, for example, maybe my intellection is high, but that isn't the strength required in this particular context. That requires some level of collaboration and communication, which is further down the list for me. Okay, then let me go get somebody as opposed to what I used to do was, “Well, how hard can this be? Let me just go learn stuff.” And get in trouble from that. And so I'm big, right? I'm big on resources. Books and people consider resources. People resources, where I look for advice, where I look for help. And I don't consider that act of weakness, but more of a self awareness and appropriateness. So when I say weakness, what I'm saying is a misuse of my skills.
00:16:55 Sheri: Right, right. Or when you are looking at the things, like you said, of the lesser talents, to know how can I, like you said, collaborate with somebody else, how can I call in a team, how can I use a different talent theme to help with that? All those things that we do in order to navigate areas of that lesser talent. And I love what you said that sometimes you don't need an intellection. Sometimes you need a pull from other talent themes to accomplish the job. And I think that's where a lot of people get confused when they first learn about strengths and talents is that they're all firing at the same time. That's not the case at all. It's pulling from what do I need right now in order to accomplish this task or what talent might get in the way? I call it dialing up. And as a musician, I am not a musician. But as a musician, I was talking to somebody who wasn't a music one time and I said, “Just think of it like dialing up and dialing down.”
00:17:59 Tom: Sure. I think of a hammer, wrench, the tools, right? You need a nail. You need a hammer.
00:18:07 Sheri: Right.
00:18:08 Tom: I guess you could use a wrench. But it's going to take a long time, and the job is not going to get done right. So I think there's an appropriate to. I do believe, though, I am a strengthsfinder and user, and I've used it with other people to help them. But I'm not nowhere near your level of knowledge and expertise. And yet, I will say that many people do get caught up on the weakness and the strength part. And we, in the west, by the way, this is not so prominent on the east from a cultural perspective. But we, in the west, have this bravado that kicks in that says, “Well, that's a weakness. Well then I got to go fix it.” And then off they go to take courses on said thing. And that is, again, a misuse of the information and unfortunately a very futile view of what you can do because you'll never be what it is that you need to be at that level by doing that way. So sticking to your strengths and mitigating your weaknesses or your lesser strength ones is probably the way to go.
00:19:20 Sheri: Right. I know we were talking about that before we hit record, that when you do that, no matter how, even if you put in 10,000 hours on your weakness, you're never going to get as good as if you just focus on what you're already good at and make it better. It's going to be easier. And you're going to do a way better job at whatever that it is, that activity you're working on, that task you need to accomplish, the job you need to do. If it stays within your natural talent realm, it's going to feel good. You're going to excel at it, and you'll just keep getting better and better and better at it.
00:19:58 Tom: I think this is an appropriate little topic to introduce because we know that we're going through some economic struggles. And unfortunately, we have a lot of layoffs going on. And I have been on both ends of that phone call. I have laid people off. I myself have been laid off in the past. And I want to give somebody a perspective on how these things usually happen. When a large company says, “We have to cut.” It's a mandate that comes. It's all numerical, and it trickles down. And you have to pick who it is that you're going to have to lay off. And in that room, where you have people deciding that this is exactly what happens, people look at the best at something. We have a perspective as workers, especially younger workers, who want to have a jack of all trades kind of thing, right? Which by the way, that jack of all trades is actually misquoted because there's another phrase like, when it says, “Jack of all trades, master of none.” But then it moves on and says, “But you have at least.” And I forget exactly. I'm paraphrasing a skill, right? The jack of all trades is actually the good thing, not the bad thing, because it says at least you are working towards something. And again, people can look that up on the internet.
00:21:23 Tom: But my point behind this is that people get branded in an organization about being really good at X. And so when people say, “Well, I got to formulate a team. I still got to work. I know I got to get rid of two people out of ten,” whatever the number is, they have to figure out like, “How am I going to get my work done with less people?” And the conversation always moves into who is the best at something, and that's who all gets selected to stay. And those that have a skill across the board are the ones that are probably more at risk. And that is probably a microcosm of what we're talking about here. Because if you want to improve where you are, you really need to work on your strengths and be the best. And that's how you're actually going to produce. And we're talking about productions of five X, right? I mean, people go, “Well, how much better could I possibly be?” Actually, you could be a heck of a lot better. You'd be surprised, if you utilize your strengths, invest in your strengths, and appropriately use them.
00:22:31 Sheri: Definitely. But I was looking at getting ready for this conversation today. And I was looking at your specific strengths report that really gives a customized view of it. And I love, like in your intellection, that you love to discover a new way of thinking. And even in this conversation, there's been three or four times, Tom, that I've heard you, even just the jack of all trades. You have a new way of looking at it. The sincerity and authenticity, you have a new way of looking at it.
00:23:04 Tom: I’m a great case study.
00:23:05 Sheri: Right. And I don't know if you've even been aware of that. I mean that's the thing with our natural talent strengths. We don't even recognize them in ourselves most of the time because they are so innate in us, and we do them naturally that we don't even realize we're using our talents and strengths. That's why an assessment to me is valuable because otherwise, we really don't recognize them. And we need that assessment to show it black and white.
00:23:31 Tom: I had a boss many years ago. And truth being, we just didn't care for each other. We didn't like each other, but we had to establish a working relationship. It worked that way. And eventually, we parted ways. But as we parted ways, I did get a card, a note from this person and in there, this person said, “I really like the way you look at things differently. And that is something that I will always take away from our relationship.” And so it falls into that. I mean, I had a perspective. But again, I'm assuming that most of your listeners have their strengths and have run their report. But if you haven't, or maybe you haven't in a while, I would encourage you to do that. Because it's almost like when you've decided to buy a car and you know the model and the make, and then now you're driving it. And all of a sudden you're like, “Is everybody driving this car now?” You're noticing it. Obviously, they're not. It's the same amount.
00:24:36 Tom: But now, because of the heightened awareness of your mind looking for it, once you understand those things, you end up finding, looking. And you'll be able to use them appropriately. And I have done that, and I look at that. And at one point, I have to tell you. I always thought that was a weakness of mine, that this is the challenge, this idea that I'd be the only person in the room that would say something contrary. I don't mean wrong, just different than everyone else in the room. In my younger years, I would sit there and go, “Maybe I'm the one that's wrong.” Maybe I'm like, “Is it my fault? Do I not know what I'm talking about?” You have all of this self doubt kicking in. Now, you have something to call it. Like me.
00:25:19 Sheri: Right.
00:25:20 Tom: And you're like, “Oh, okay. There are people like me that do this.” And it isn't wrong. And it's just different. And I can appreciate it. So, yes, I have an appreciation of that.
00:25:32 Sheri: Yeah. And I think that's such a valuable idea to bring up, and especially in today's environment, where so many people are trying to figure out, like, “What am I supposed to be doing?” I mean, let's face it, COVID just gave us that pause to evaluate our lives. That's my perception on it. And I think a lot of people that they're, “Do I want to continue to do this anymore? Is it worth it?” Or maybe they were laid off too. Some people were forced to have that, reevaluate where they are. There's also, again, the great resignation, where so many people, as you already mentioned before, that may be retiring, but yet, it's a young retirement.
00:26:15 Sheri: My husband is about to retire in September. He's 60. He's not ready to, as he says, sit in the rocking chair or the recliner. He knows there's gifts inside of him, left to give. So what's that? What next? Or people in college, going to college, “What am I supposed to do? I don't want those high student loans.” That's the big controversy right now. So many stages in life trying to figure out, “What am I supposed to do?” And so many times, they're in that spot. But I'm different. And that difference has never been encouraged. It's been stifled. How did they bring it up?
00:26:56 Tom: It still is.
00:26:57 Sheri: Yeah.
00:26:59 Tom: So there's a few things that you just said, that I want to capitalize on. I think one of them is now I'm talking to young kids and those that are young in their career. I was a college professor as well.
00:27:13 Sheri: Okay.
00:27:13 Tom: I taught part time, and organizational behavior, leadership, that kind of stuff. And I used to have lots of students come to me in that moment of crisis. They go to school. This is like, “Well, my parents got a college degree and I got to go through the motions.” And the question that they would always ask me would be, “What major? What should I major in? What should I major in?” And I said, that's the wrong question to ask. The right question you should be asking is, what problem do you want to solve? And then go get the skills to solve it. And it was interesting because there was one young lady that had a business degree or something, and you could just tell that this just wasn't into it. And she says, “What major should I get?” And I said, “Well, it's clear that what you're doing now is not what you want to do because you wouldn't ask the question. But I also do think that you're asking the wrong question. What problem you want to solve?” And she was really wrapped up on the environment. I just feel that the environment and the pollution and all this other stuff. I said, “Well, your business degree is not going to help you with that.” “What do you think if I could be an environmental engineer?” Well, then go do that because those are the skills for that. And that's exactly what she did. She flipped majors, went, and is doing environmental engineering now and as happy as can be.
00:28:36 Tom: So I would say that to the young people, but I would also say that to the older people. And this is actually dovetails back into sincerity. One of the dimensions of my book and sincerity is this idea of non coercive altruism. There's still a lot of skepticism in the literature about altruism as being truly altruistic. Meaning the idea of altruism is I do something with no compensation or no reward to myself. However, a lot of people say, “Well, if I do something, for example, if I give or if I do to charity or something like that, I'm getting the satisfaction of helping people as they're truly altruistic.” I mean, again, I'm not here to debate that. And what I am here to say is it really is about intention. And the way you fire that off, the way you fire that passion to take that altruistic step is to seek for what I call social injustice. So what is the social injustice that you see in the world? That's what's going to tease out your sincerity, and that's what's going to tease out action.
00:29:39 Tom: And so again, for those that are past college age or you're in the middle of your career and you might be asking yourself, “What is it that I should be doing? What's that social injustice that you want?” And that social injustice can come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. It's not some golf and protest about something. It'd be as simple as, “I just don't like the way employees get treated at companies.” Okay, well, what skill would you need and what position would you need to be able to change that? Is it an HR skill? Whatever that is. And so I think this starts leading more to your calling. And something that I said earlier before we hit record is this idea that clarity is usually preceded by action, not the other way around. Lots of us think, for example, going back to the kids, trying to figure out what their major is. Well, first I get my major, and I get all these skills, and then I go act on it. No, unfortunately, that's not really where you get clarity. You got to go, do, right? You start by figuring out what problem you want to solve, get those skills, go do those things. Clarity comes from that. And I would say that to those in their careers and towards their end of careers, continue asking yourself those questions. I'm going to pause because I talked way too much.
00:30:55 Sheri: I love all that. And you're right. We're so on the same page with all that. I love your question of what problem do you want to solve? And I call that's part of what I take my clients through too. It's like one of the questions is, I call it your heartstrings. What tugs at your heartstrings? And again, like you said, it doesn't mean it has to be this. I'm going to go on a mission trip.
00:31:15 Tom: Exactly.
00:31:16 Sheri: Solve major things in the world. It can just be a small little problem that just always bothers you or tugs at your heart, makes you cry, makes you mad, makes you laugh, whatever. It's an emotional thing that stirs you up.
00:31:32 Tom: Because that'll get you through the messy middle, right? Because it's all exciting when you're like, “I'm going to go off and do it.” And then there's the messy middle of, “I've actually got to do all this stuff. And it's really hard. And I don't like it anymore.” But you're not there yet.
00:31:43 Sheri: Right, yeah.
00:31:44 Tom: What's going to pull you through the messy middle is going to be those kinds of things. I like to add. So you're talking about clients. So I've got a few coaching clients, not many. It's not quite what I do, but I go through an exercise of what I call the amplified mission statement. The amplified mission statement is actually two pieces. First, it's a vision. And it's not a vision statement. It's a vision story. Because the idea of a vision is you have to ask yourself the question, “What do you want the world to look like when you're doing your thing?” Susan G. Komen’s vision, breast cancer, kind of work themselves out of a job, if you will. And it's pretty simple. So ask yourself, whatever the thing you're doing, what's the world look like with you doing it? And then the mission is what effort are you going to place on creating the vision?
00:32:38 Tom: Because obviously, even with Susan G. Komen or what about breast cancer, that takes a lot of different things to happen. And they chose fundraising for research. That's their thing, not the research itself. They're going to get the money so people can do their thing. Hopefully there's somebody out there who has the same vision, world without breast cancer. But they're the researchers. So everyone does their piece. So the question I have for people when they want to solve the problem is like, first of all, what's the world look like when you're doing your thing? Second of all, what effort are you going to place to make that vision to become a reality? And I think it's a good visualization because next thing you know, you find yourself, “I did this to myself” and found myself in the wrong spot, didn't have the skills that I wanted to do. On and on and on. And so then, now, you got a checklist, “Hey, look at that. And there's that checklist thing again” to go off and prosecute what it is that you think you should be doing, which is your calling.
00:33:37 Sheri: Right. I love your example with the Susan G. Komen because there's so many ways we could have a passion. And I did see one of your videos with your wife and some of your AHA moment video.
00:33:52 Tom: Oh, yeah.
00:33:52 Sheri: Right, yeah. So my mom passed away from a different cancer. But you can care. Have cancer as your cause. But like you just said, based on going back to your strengths, your skill set, all those things, you may be the researcher. You may be the influencer out there raising money for that. You may be the caregiver taking care of somebody. There's so many different ways you can support one cause.
00:34:24 Tom: That's correct.
00:34:25 Sheri: So find your way to support that same cause.
00:34:29 Tom: I used to work with a lot of nonprofits. And sometimes, you have the business analyst, who sits in the cubicle, not much different than most cubicles out there. And they get up, and they look at spreadsheets. And they make sure numbers match, and all this other stuff. And they get disheartening by the job. There was a nonprofit that I really enjoyed working with, an organization called Girls on the Run. Now, I'm going to tell them this. I don't know if they'll listen to it, but it's a terrible name because it's really more about empowering girls.
00:35:09 Sheri: They're running away.
00:35:11 Tom: Nobody's running from anything like this.
00:35:12 Sheri: The girls are running away.
00:35:14 Tom: It’s empowering young.
00:35:17 Sheri: There's your intellection giving a new way to think about that title.
00:35:21 Tom: That's right. Yeah, I was talking to the CEO at the time. I'm like, “I really love your mission. I'm not necessarily unsold on your name. But in there, you had people in the business office and all this.” And one of the things I encourage people to do is think, “How do you connect that work that you do to the cause?” I talk about leadership and leadership being a cause finder and a cause maker and a cause solver is a leader. You got a thing that goes out. And I'm going to look, “This is my thing. And I'm going to be the best at it. I'm not going to try to boil the ocean.”
00:36:02 Tom: But if you look at a lot of these nonprofits and they have people that love the cause, but then they find themselves, like I said, in the cubicle doing spreadsheets. Sometimes they're like, “I'm irrelevant to the outcome of this,” which is just downright not true. They may not see it. They may not say the indirectness or the connections that get into that, but if we don't know what the money is and we don't know how to do it, how can we spend it and therefore be able to solve some of these problems? So you're a very important part of this cog. You're cog in this machine. And so I always encourage those to understand how they fit into whatever machine that they're in.
00:36:37 Sheri: Yeah, I like that. Yeah, absolutely. Because every piece plays a part. And like you said, one little thing is missing, the machine is not going to run correctly.
00:36:48 Tom: No matter how maybe. I like watches. I like mechanical watches. And that's one that comes there. And you take one little tiny piece of that thing, the whole thing is just dead. You can't just use it.
00:36:59 Sheri: Yeah. So we're going to start wrapping things up here. But I know too, you mentioned something about not following your passion.
00:37:08 Tom: Yes.
00:37:09 Sheri: Can you expand on that a little bit, and what you mean when you say, don't follow your passion?
00:37:15 Tom: Well, first of all, again, this is my strengths at help, at work here, right, the idea that looking for different things. There's a book, a couple of books, actually. But there's a book by Cal Newport that talks about it. I think it's called, Be So Good They Can't Ignore You. And he talks about this idea of not following your passion, at least at first. The idea that you take a look at it. One of the things, for example, that I did was my passion again, going back to music. I want to be a musician. That was my passion. And then over a period of time, as I thought, what I thought, which was just become incredibly proficient and everything will work, all of a sudden became a big drag and a hassle. And I really wasn't very good, and I hated it. And I didn't even want to play anymore. And I thought, “How did I get here?” I remember, every musician has this day, at least ones that aren't getting paid anymore. And it was February 6, 1986, where I swore that I would never take another dime or play music. If I played music, I would do it for my consumption, my passion. And it was so liberating to put that in my mind and yet have to let go of any kind of professional musician career.
00:38:31 Tom: And over that period of time, I've learned to let go of things that potentially were my passion and became no longer my passion. And they completely changed what those things were to begin with. I do believe that you need to move to gain clarity, but I don't necessarily. And by the way, when you move and gain clarity, the skills will come. I think that if you follow your passion, you bring that heartache that comes with it, number one. Number two, I think, you also bring disappointment. You also bring a bunch of baggage that you can't let go. I have a perspective of what music should be. And anything less is not good enough or different, even though I should probably let go of some things to become better.
00:39:29 Tom: And one of the things that I found was when you walk into something that is not necessarily your passion, more like your calling, your moving, gaining clarity. You're starting to angle into something that you never thought of. If you told me I was going to be a PhD in organizational leadership 30 years ago when I was trying to be a musician, are you kidding me? There's no way. But that movement gave me clarity. I took that next step, that next movement, and it pushed me away from that. And none of that was necessarily passionate. It also provided a very objective clarity that I was able to consume and then take in and live and be able to adjust. You do this for a living. How hard is it to get somebody to move off of a preconceived idea or limiting belief, things that are passionate in that way? Now, I'm not saying that you don't land back when you do all this. Maybe you do land back to your passion, but I don't necessarily think that's out of the gate would be a good start.
00:40:34 Sheri: I love that perspective. Again, your intellection there of that fresh perspective, because so many people, they think that's where they need to start in order to find their calling or to be a better [crosstalk].
00:40:48 Tom: I mean, it’s a good place to start. But I just don't think that.
00:40:51 Sheri: Yeah, that makes sense, what you said.
00:40:53 Tom: I just don't think that with all of the baggage that comes with it and I mean, that's an emotional way of saying, “This is what my fantasy is,” if you will, “in my head about how something should be,” and then it's not. The great theologian and philosopher, Mike Tyson, the boxer, says, “Everyone has a punt.” Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.
00:41:24 Sheri: Right.
00:41:25 Tom: That's probably one of the deepest things that I hold that dear to me. It's true, right? We all have this thing in our mind. It's clarity, right? And all of a sudden, boom in the face. And all of a sudden, it's like, “Whoa, now what?”
00:41:40 Sheri: Right.
00:41:42 Tom: That's my perspective. I mean, I think Cal Newport does a better job of explaining it. I do have a post that I wrote about it a while back. If I can dig it up, I can send it to you for the show notes, if you'd like. But it's one I actually did a webinar on this and got really good feedback. And I think the movement of gaining clarity, I think, is probably the punchline here.
00:42:05 Sheri: Right. And I think that's what really people are looking for. They think they're looking for their passionate calling, but they're really looking for clarity, “What should I be doing?”
00:42:16 Tom: Exactly. So they contemplate about this in the dark room of their house, like, “Okay, now let me just wait till I'm really good at whatever. And I'm super clear, and then I'll go do that.” And that will never happen. And so I just encourage people to take steps and to try. It's been great since I've been out doing my own thing. Let's just say, I've gained a lot of clarity because I've made a significant amount of. And see, I don't like the word mistake either. I was just having this conversation with my business partner. People say, well, they do something, and then the outcome is not what they expected it to be. So therefore, it must be a mistake. I don't know how else you would have known that it's a mistake had you had not done it.
00:43:06 Sheri: Right.
00:43:07 Tom: And so I think it's a mistake when you know something and then you don't execute. And even then, that's probably more of an accident. But I think a lot of people look at that outcome and go, “Oh, I made a mistake.” There's the old Thomas Edison, right, 990 ways of how to not make a light bulb or whatever that. There's probably some truth to that as well.
00:43:30 Sheri: Right. And being willing to try the things. And if it's not right, just, for instance, you and I were supposed to be originally talking on my Navigating Your Leadership podcast. I did that for a year and realized, like, “Wait, there's something else I'm supposed to be doing right now.” So it wasn’t a mistake.
00:43:49 Tom: And you would have never known that.
00:43:51 Sheri: Right, it was never a mistake.
00:43:51 Tom: But you would have never known that if you had not done that other one, right? I mean, there's that clarity that comes in again. So I can't stress that maybe that's the punchline of this podcast. And by the way, people say, “Well, just make sure you move forward.” Maybe you're not moving forward. Maybe you're moving backwards. But you're moving.
00:44:08 Sheri: You're dancing. Sometimes you're moving forward. Sometimes you're going backwards. Sometimes you're going side to side. Life is a dance. Life is a dance, right?
00:44:16 Tom: You'd be surprised, like the level of clarity, that life slows down for you. It's a great place to be.
00:44:26 Sheri: Yeah. Well, Tom, I knew, like I said, this conversation was going to be a deep one, an interesting one. And I hope that the listeners, the people that watch the video, that they pick out the nuggets, that they're supposed to hear and go back and replay it. Because Tom, you did drop a lot of great nuggets to pull from. Anything else as we wrap this up that you want the listeners to really get from this conversation?
00:44:56 Tom: I do think that there's an aspect of uniqueness that I think we should all appreciate. This is something that I did not appreciate for a long time. Unique felt wrong because I didn't look like everyone else. So actually uniqueness is right. I talk a lot about Diversity, Equity, Inclusion. And I don't think everybody has an appreciation of the fact that what progresses lives, companies is diversity of thinking, not homogeneous views of things. And so, you, with your uniqueness, you are needed and don't stop being unique.
00:45:33 Sheri: I love that. I love that. Yes. And appreciate everybody else's.
00:45:38 Tom: Amen.
00:45:39 Sheri: Uniqueness.
00:45:39 Tom: That’s right.
00:45:39 Sheri: Yes. It’s beautiful. And how can people follow you? How can they learn more about what you are doing for organizations out there? And how can they follow the progress of your book?
00:45:50 Tom: That's a good question. I'm in the middle of having the conversation with the publisher, set of publishers, to figure that out. But my little party trick is if you Google my name, Tom Tonkin, I get the full first page of Google with the different things. I'm on multiple podcasts. I've done a lot of webinars. I write a lot about a lot of different things. Again, just testing things out, leaving the legacy. And so, certainly LinkedIn is a great place to find me as well.
00:46:20 Sheri: Yes. And anybody with high input, ideation, intellection, strategic, and activator, follow Tom because there's so much good stuff. I enjoy it. I got to go back, what was sent to me, to introduce you to me, and some videos. It's like, “I want to go back and watch all your videos now.” Please continue to put on all the good information out there.
00:46:43 Tom: I think this podcast is great because I do think, as much as StrengthsFinder has been a staple in a lot of people's organizations, we still haven't figured out that it's okay to let go of the weaknesses and just mitigate them. And I think that's what you're doing is a great service to us.
00:47:02 Sheri: Thank you, Tom. I appreciate that and saying back to you. So thank you for being a guest on this show.
00:47:09 Tom: Thank you for your time.
00:47:15 Sheri: Thank you, friends, for spending this time with me. My hope is something you heard today inspires you to take action towards discovering your calling. But before you sign off, just two more quick things. One, if you found value and enjoyed this episode, can you do me a huge favor and leave a review or share this with a friend? Help us grow the podcast to make a bigger impact on the world. And second of all, if you haven't yet, don't forget to check the show notes to grab your Five to Thrive guide. It's my gift to you. It's a guide to help you intentionally invest in your natural talent so you can turn them into strength. Think of it as your personal navigational guide on your journey to a fulfilling life. And until next episode, remember you've been created to live a life of fulfillment, purpose, success and joy.