Love And Resilience: A Conversation with Katherine Virdi

Love isn’t just a feeling we fall into. It can be the foundation that keeps us standing when life cracks the concrete. Our host, Donald E Coleman, is joined by executive coach Katherine Virdi for a conversation that moves from profound personal loss to practical tools for resilience, intuition, and authentic leadership. Along the way, we explore how relationships shape who we become, how grief changes our inner world, and why “knowing” often shows up before we can explain it.

We dig into the difference between mental noise and body-based intuition, including what it looks like when your foundation has “air pockets” like ignored red flags and constant second-guessing. Katherine shares how self-awareness helps you recognize what’s true for you, and how taking action matters as much as receiving the signal. We also talk about stillness in a loud world and why meditation doesn’t have to look one specific way. Art, calming music, and learning to observe thoughts rather than obey them become real practices for mindfulness and emotional regulation.

From there, we connect gratitude to nervous system calm, calling in your senses to interrupt fight-or-flight and return to center. Finally, we bring it into executive coaching and leadership coaching: wholeness at work, the humanity behind every title, and the power of being a mirror so people can see how capable they already are. 

If you care about resilience, intuition, wholeness, and authentic leadership, this one stays with you. Subscribe, share this with a leader or friend who needs it, and leave a review with the line that hit you hardest.

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 1:07

All right. Welcome back to the ICF San Diego's Coffee and Conversation podcast. I'm just going to jump right in today. Our special guest is Katherine Verde. And I have to tell you, she recently moved out to California from the East Coast. So we might there might be some East Coast vibes up in here. So being originally from New York. So Catherine, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Wonderful. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation. I'm looking forward to it.

Life Events That Shaped Katherine

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Yes, I too. I've learned that having these conversations is for me, it's sacred because I get to learn more about people, but I also get to see how the power of coaching is affecting our world, one person, one company, one community at a time. So I'm I'm looking forward to diving in here. So I start out every interview with my platinum question. I call it the platinum question. Oh, I like that. Platinum question. I'm just jumping right in. So okay. So what are what are three or four events that has most shaped who you are today?

SPEAKER_02 2:25

Wow, really great question. So there are several things. However, meeting my husband was definitely one of them. He is my absolute, he's my rock. We are both Sagittarius, but he is the stable one, and I am the one, the Sagittarius that likes to kind of bounce around the room. So that's one. The second thing, a little on the more challenging side, in 2018, our oldest child, our son, was diagnosed with a very rare pediatric cancer. And he battled for three and a half years. And unfortunately, we lost him to that cancer. So that has been a obviously probably the most significant event of our lives, you know, navigating a child who's battling something that you can't even see. And, you know, watching them fight, fight, fight, and then unfortunately not winning the battle after three and a half years was that was incredibly hard. And unfortunately, during that same time, we lost my mother very unexpectedly, who was like my absolute best friend. So some really challenging times. They definitely shaped who I am for better or for worse. And I have learned that it is part of my story. And I kind of move forward with that story of resilience and kind of overcoming really, really significant challenges, but still moving forward. And I use that in my coaching, kind of like that sense when I'm coaching.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

I'm pausing here for a moment because what you said was deeply profound. And the common thread for me was love.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Was a love that that you it's hard to describe, but you know.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Exactly. Yes. It's 100% true. The love that I have for my husband when I met him, you know, I you know, they say you know when you know, but you can't describe that to somebody, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Yep, yes, I know.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

But I knew. And then, of course, my mother absolutely adore my mother, my best friend, and then our son, our firstborn. So all different forms of love, but you're exactly right. Common theme of just love, absolute love.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

So before I I have a question here, but I do know what you mean by that. For I met my wife on the A train in New York City.

SPEAKER_03 5:32

Oh, wow. So I think there's a song with that title.

Love As The Root Of Resilience

SPEAKER_00 5:37

I do know what it is. I I was half asleep. You know how on the subway trains, when you're running late, you stick your almond, and the the train shakes.

SPEAKER_03 5:48

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

I woke up and there she was standing at the door.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

And I nudged my buddy that was next to me. We were going to work, and I said, I'm gonna marry that woman.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

Wow, that's phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

That's been and it'll be 39 years in June, we'll be married. So it's congratulations.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

So now back to to this theme of love. I see where we're going today. This is this is this is beautiful. I love this. So how or in what ways have love shaped your resiliency? Right? And how do you bring that into coaching?

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Another really great question. So love and resiliency. So with resiliency, I think uh love is the underpinning of resiliency. Wow. And so just knowing in those three different forms that love was kind of the foundation from which everything else was moving up, down, sideways, whichever way it was moving, the foundation that was set and firm was love. And so I think when you have that, that gives you the ability and the kind of the catapult just to keep moving forward. Yes, right, because uh you can't move backwards because if you think of love as like a really fantastic foundation for a house, it's built out of like cement and very strong things, right? It's really hard to kind of move backwards into cement, right? You're not gonna break it. But so you know that you have that solid foundation from which you can move, and so that's kind of like the backing that you have to keep moving forward, and so that's kind of how I think of love and resiliency. It it just kind of makes you move forward and it keeps you from going backwards.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Wow, this is so good right now. I'm pausing here so share with me if you're willing to talk to the person. No, there it is. Talk to the person that's gonna listen to this, that's not sure about their foundation being love.

When Love Feels Uncertain

SPEAKER_02 8:47

That is a really good question. Give me a moment to think about that.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Yes, I am.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

So I think if you are questioning whether something is love or not, it may have you may have some pockets of air in your foundation. Right? Yes, yes. So it's not solid. Somehow, maybe you got a dip in your cement, and so maybe it's not as strong. So if you're finding yourself questioning different things or glossing over things, you know, those proverbial red flags or yellow flags that are that are common lingo now, I believe, in the dating world. Yes. If you're questioning those, you need to listen to that. Your intuition is there for a reason. And I think as of late, we are not taught to pay attention to our intuition as much as we should. We kind of like say, oh, that's like some voice in my head, or that funny feeling in your stomach. Those things are real and you should pay attention to them. And so I think if those things are bubbling up for you in some form or fashion, and if you're questioning your love, so to speak, you should pay attention to that because from my experience, and I have been married, I have to think for a second, almost 27 years. Yeah, you go.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Um we won't tell them, okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

That you it's just not something that you question because you just it's just solid. Yes. And so it's really hard to explain to somebody who is dating or going through these processes and they say, like, when you know, you know. Like, how do you how do you put words to that? Like, how do you put words to to knowing that you saw your future wife standing at the door while you were just waking up from a slumber on the on the subway? Like, how do you how do you put that to words?

SPEAKER_00 11:16

You you you don't. You don't, and that's just it. It's it's becomes part of your being.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Yeah, it's a knowing.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Yes, yes, in the knower, right?

SPEAKER_02 11:28

It's it's a knowing, but like how do you how do you describe how do you put words to a knowing? Like right, it's like it's again back to that intuition and inside your body, somewhere, like something new, that was your wife. Yes, and it's just like wake up, I'm putting her white right in front of you. Open your eyes.

Intuition, Flags, And Taking Action

SPEAKER_00 12:01

So, so so let's go deeper, because I like three times already you've mentioned about dating, right? In in this, so and not necessarily watching out for the the red, the yellow, or the green flags, right? Let's just call all of that in in the intuition. So how do you uh how do you coach somebody through that? And I and I love your metaphor of concrete, right? Because most people used to think if you get a crack in a slab, you think that it's done. But that's not the case anymore. They can repair crack slabs. So that just came to me as I'm sitting here. But how do you how do you coach or walk with someone through this process that there's cracks or air bubbles or and they're not paying attention or they're not aware of those flags? How do you get them to notice like the shaking of the train doors? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Yeah, yeah. So I think it's a part of it, it's a little bit two-factor, it's self-awareness.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Yes, okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

So it's knowing yourself, and sometimes when you're going through these, excuse me, these processes of like dating or you know, whatever the case may be. I think if you don't know yourself, then it's a little bit harder to know when when somebody else is your future partner.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

So I'm kind of curious for you when when you kind of opened your eyes, like what like what state were you in? Like had you been working on yourself? Did you know who you are? Could you say who you were at that time?

SPEAKER_00 14:05

No. I I was I was hungover going to work on a Monday from party. I'm being very real with you. I was partying all weekend. Okay, but when I looked up, what I saw and what I heard inside was she's the one for the long haul.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

And that was it.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

That was all you paid it and you paid attention to that immediately. Okay. What what made you pay attention to it?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Like I don't know, but my whole being came alive. Wow. And I'm like, and I when I nudged my my buddy, I'm like, man, I am marrying that girl. I had no idea who she was, where she came from. And here's the thing: we were on a train, right? So the next day, it's the 705A train. I want to put that out there because every single day for the next 90 days, what I waited on the platform to see. It took me 90 days to get up the courage to say hello.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Oh, but you saw her every day for 90 days?

SPEAKER_00 15:20

I waited, but and there were some days she didn't show up and I was late to work, but I kept coming back. And I I think that's what you're saying here, right? Yeah. So we get a confirmation, but then we don't actually pay attention to the signposts, the red, yellow, and the green.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Yeah. Or act upon it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Say more about acting on that.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

Yeah. So again, it's kind of like going back to like understanding yourself and knowing yourself. And and I think in your case, it's very interesting that you know you were hungover the first time you saw her, but something in you made you kind of like flip a switch. You said your whole your whole being came to life, is what I believe is what you said. So you paid attention to that. And then that caused you to go and and be on the train platform for 90 days. Yes, it changed everything.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Yeah, it changed everything. It changed this. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:28

But can you imagine if you hadn't paid attention to that?

SPEAKER_00 16:33

Now? No, I can't. I can't imagine. Yes. That's wow, that's great. That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Yeah. Um, so kind of going back to the the flags, I think it's a little bit of knowing yourself.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Paying attention to the signs. And maybe if you're not even fully sure of who you are, I mean, I'm not sure we ever know who exactly we are. It's an evolving process.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Yes, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

Constantly an evolving process, but at least take the step. You definitely took the step, right? Yes. You made the effort to be where you thought she might be. This woman who you, I don't even think you knew her name.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

I didn't know exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

But you could describe her, you knew her if you saw her, and something inside of you was like, this is important. You need to do this. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Right?

Finding Stillness Through Art

SPEAKER_02 17:35

So I I think it really goes back to really paying attention to those signs that I I just don't think we pay attention to right now. And and I think we need to be a bit more quiet with ourselves. Yes. Just to kind of like go inward and and say, like, okay, what is going on? Like, what am I feeling? What am I thinking? Is that my thought? Am I being the observer of my thought? You know, what what is going on right now? But you have to make the effort.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Yes. I I appreciate what you said. I'm I'm gonna flow with this quietness because I have been on a stillness and a solitude journey now. I'm going on on three years. Oh wow. Okay. So if you're willing to share more about this quietness, about looking inside versus outside where all the noise is at, what does that look like for you looking inside and and quieting yourself enough to be able to hear? And you you you mentioned about your knower. Yes. Right? So it's not coming from an intellect, it's coming from something totally deeper. Are you willing to share?

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Yes, absolutely. So for me, trying to find stillness and quietness in a in a loud world, it actually takes effort.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yes, it does. Oh my goodness, it's a war girlfriend. It's a battle. It is. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

So for me personally, I have been trying to use art as that medium.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Where I find some sort of creative outlet, whether it's painting or making some little thing, ceramic coaster or something. But between being able to have some very like calming music and art, that's the time where I find that I can kind of like listen inwards and kind of you know observe the thoughts that are floating around in my head and kind of discern like what might be just noise, what might be a noing inside of me, what feels real, what feels like that might be like an intrusive thought of some something. But using art and calming music is what works for me. I've tried to meditate, it's like I can't hold still.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

It takes work, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

A lifetime, let's just put it that way.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

I think people think that you have to be just like completely silent. And and I don't think you have to be like I know people who walk and meditate, like they're just being in nature, just walking by the ocean in the forest, whatever the case may be. You have to figure out what works for you. I don't think there is a prescribed like go sit down for five minutes and close your eyes. That's like telling somebody, like, you can't eat that cake that's right in front of you. You know, it's it's you're just gonna want the cake then. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

So you use the term observer. Now from an observer perspective, it means that you're looking out and you're not actually activating or going into participation. So, what is it about observing that brings more color using your art metaphor, more color to revealing what's going on in life and who you are? How does that flow for you?

SPEAKER_02 21:45

So I'm a fan of Eckhart Tolle. And did I just say that name right?

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Yeah, you did. You did.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

Especially the power of now. Yep. His book, The Power of Now. And and that book was very insightful for me when he really called out like, if you are the observer of your thoughts. So, like giving you the ability to rise above or step aside or stand behind the thought, but that it's not necessarily you that's having it's a thought, but you are the observer of this. Yes. So that's really kind of where I started to think like, oh, okay, you know, that is exceptionally profound. And maybe I don't need to believe every thought that I have. Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Yes, yes. Keep going, keep going. This is so good right now. I hope everyone understands how deep this is going. So keep going.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Because, you know, not every thought needs to be acknowledged or believed or given any merit.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Sometimes you can just say, like, okay, well, that was a thought, and thank you very much. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

I just think it's important. And you kind of have to like swim through this and figure out which seems to be of purpose or of usefulness versus what might be just chatter and noise.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Wow. I I just want that to settle. Because from a position of observing, you can do that.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

When you're constantly trying to strive or get it, you're you're chasing everything.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

Exactly.

Gratitude And Nervous System Calm

SPEAKER_00 23:49

And yeah. Wow. This is so good. So at this point in your life, right? Where did you get to that place, this stage in life and work where what helps keep you grounded besides the the artwork, right? Because that's more about identifying inside. But what what keeps you grounded or helps you stay grounded when when outcomes do not line up the way that you've desired? Now I know you shared those impacts, but what we talked about love keeping you grounded. But is there something else working within love that keeps you grounded?

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Yes, another great question. So I try and turn to gratitude and appreciation. Yes. I think those are the things that keep me grounded in terms of I am thankful for the time that I had with my mother and my son. Yeah. And I appreciate that time. And so I use that to help me kind of get through when I'm having some challenging thoughts. I'm like, okay, right now I am very appreciative of the beautiful blue sky, the amazing ability for my husband and I to live in a gorgeous city like San Diego. You know, you just start calling in the things that are around you to help kind of chase away some of the, you know, more intrusive thoughts that you might be having.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

So I'm I'm I'm curious now because so from a position of observing, how has practicing observation been able to affect your ability to stay in a place of gratitude and appreciation? How is that how has that strengthened that muscle?

SPEAKER_02 25:50

I think when you're calling in the different things of gratitude and appreciation, I think that calls in your senses, which kind of brings you back to a focus and helps to start calm your nerve and calm your nervous system.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Because more than likely, what is going on when you're having these kind of like bouncing chaotic thoughts is your nervous system is probably moving into fight or flight in some form or capacity. Yes. And by focusing in on gratitude and appreciation and calling in your five senses, like it's a beautiful blue sky, or I hear the ocean, or I see an amazing bird, whatever the case may be, you're calling in your senses, and that is really helping calm your nervous system. So I think the two things in conjunction work together to kind of like bring you back to center as much as possible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

This is beautiful, man. I hope your clients understand what you're doing with them because it's it's actually and I and I think that's the thing, is right, that for me is what the power of coaching is all about. Each one of us has a uniqueness on how we bring ourselves into coaching, which literally just brightens up this world. You know what I'm saying? I it's like I can't explain it, but it's like this is what happens in these sacred moments that we have with each other.

Coaching As Mirror And Presence

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Exactly. It's again, it's a little bit of a knowing of something that I know I'm supposed to be doing. It's my way of being able to help others. Yes. By simply being there, being the reflection of them, parroting back to them what they're saying, observing them as they are talking, kind of reading the whole communication cycle, both verbal and the nonverbal.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

Asking really powerful questions, you know, like why did you shoulder why do you think you shoulder shrugged when you said that particular word? Or why did you wince when you say something? So just kind of reflecting back and being a mirror to an individual, I really find so much joy in it. And I think it is fostered by my desire to let people see how amazing they are. It's almost like I want you to see how amazing you are, but maybe you have to use my eyes for a little bit to see that.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Wow. Okay. Man, you just tied in love so beautifully. That's and and you're saying, use my eyes to see that you're loved, even when you can't. So for me, I I just got these words in everything and in spite of your loved.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Wow. I I want people to sit with that one. So because it it's so easy for us to get attached to the noise.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

Yes, especially now in this day and age.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Yeah, I'm not even going there. I I'm not even giving this day and age the the the the time, right? Yes. Because uh we're there's so much more to us than what is trying to come in to create those thoughts. And I love what you said is some thoughts we don't even need to acknowledge, just let it go right by on the screen and just let it keep going.

SPEAKER_03 29:57

Keep going.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

So at this point now on your journey, and I know it's been an amazing journey for you, some highs, some lows, and some in-betweens, or using the the concrete, right? Some bubbles, some cracks, but it's all worked out. So, at what moment was there a moment in your journey when you stopped trying to fix yourself or others and you began trusting the concrete, right? Trusting the concrete that was already present within or going with the intuition.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

That's a great question. And I I kind of giggle a little bit because as the oldest of four children, I'm that's a still that's still a work in progress. Let's just be honest.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Yes, that that's it. Thank you for saying that. That's that's the beautifulness of it, yes.

Decisions, Trust, And Self-Fixing

SPEAKER_02 30:54

So when I I'm not sure I could put a finger on a moment, yeah, but it's a series of just events that you have to just learn to trust yourself and and know that it's what we've all my husband and I have always tried to teach our children. You can make decisions all day long. Make them because it seems as though people are a little bit averse to making decisions, yes, because they don't want to make the wrong decisions, but in the course of that, that paralyzes you, and so what we tried to teach our children was make a decision. If it's a wrong decision, stop and make a different decision. Yeah, you can do that. There's very, very few things in life where you cannot stop and make a different decision, so just make the decision and go with it. If it's wrong, it's okay. Learn from it, make a different decision.

unknown 32:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

So we're we're getting close here. So at this point, this is a perfect time to segue into because we've been really massaging the word or the aspect of wholeness. Yes. So what is your definition of wholeness?

SPEAKER_02 32:26

My definition of wholeness is the entirety of somebody's being. Their emotions, good, bad, or indifferent, their feelings, good, bad, or indifferent, their decisions, good, bad, or indifferent. That's what comprises all of us. We are an amalgamation of all of these things, and each one of us is very unique and very different. And I think sometimes we forget that we our uniqueness is what makes us amazing. And we try and mold ourselves to fit in, to be accepted, but I think to be accepted is to be unique. Be you. There's nobody else like you. So just be you with everything that you're made up of. And are we trying to curate our life? Maybe. But like you're you're made up of thoughts and feelings and emotions, and that's all okay. You don't have to have an Instagram of your life making sure everything is picture perfect. That's kind of silly. All right. I think we're put on this earth to go through a journey to learn some things, to do some things, to help some people, to find some people. We we have different reasons to be on this earth. And so go with what makes you you. I love when people I'm walking down the street and I'll see somebody who has like a bright blue streak of hair, you know, in their hair. And I'm like, that's amazing. I love that. I love that for you. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

So and it's funny you're talking about here because my oldest daughter came home two nights ago with pink streaks in her hair. So, and the first thing she says, she said, Dad, don't laugh at me and and don't be mad at me, right? So that's about the conformity, you know what I mean? Yeah, and yeah. So it's funny because I I call her now, I'm calling her pinky. And she laughs, and I'm like, Well, if that's gonna get you to stay in a place of joy, yeah, so be it from that perspective.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

So exactly.

Wholeness In Executive Coaching

SPEAKER_00 34:54

I I'm very curious because I know you have to go here, but I'm curious now, knowing that you coach executives and everything that we've discussed today, how do you bring that into executive coaching? Because I'm sensing you're doing something incredible at a deep level. So, how do you bring that all together?

SPEAKER_02 35:19

So I think when I'm coaching, I help individuals understand that wholeness that we talked about earlier. Because I think that's what happens is that gets isolated and it gets compartmentalized. Like I'm a manager, I'm managing a team. Well, you're also a human being and you're managing other human beings, and I think that wholeness of us as individuals, as humans, gets forgotten, or it's not part of the conversation. And so I try and bring it back in by making sure one, the individual that I'm coaching, is kind of recognizing themselves, first of all, as a leader or whatever the case may be, and then kind of understanding how they might connect with their fellow human beings in their team. So kind of bringing the humanness and the wholeness is how I incorporate our conversation into my coaching.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

And see, and I think that's beautiful because when we started out with love, right? So now you're seeing love and then connecting humanity in with that love, that that's changing the world. I I'm so glad I asked that question because that just that puts the bow on all that we have been discussing here today. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Yeah, so as we get ready to wrap this interview up, Catherine, this has been awesome. And I, man, this has been beautiful. So, my last question for you as you reflect on the journey, what do you hope people feel when they're in your presence before they ever try to change anything?

SPEAKER_02 37:22

Wow. I think my answer might be kind of simple. I want them to feel because sometimes I think they we end up in a place where we kind of try not to feel. We try and numb ourselves. And so I want I want people to feel like feel how you feel. Maybe put yourself in some uh somebody else's shoes too, if you're you know having an interaction with them. But I want you to feel, yes, just just be present, be present and feel. I think it's my simple answer.

Feel, Be Present, Closing

SPEAKER_00 38:03

And and there's no better way to close out this interview with that. We start it with love, yes, and along the way we're saying be present and feel. Yes. And I'm gonna say feel that you're loved and that love is present.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Ah, ooh, there it is.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Yeah, this has been awesome. Catherine, thank you for sharing some of your time with me today.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Well, thank you. I really appreciate the opportunity. Fabulous conversation.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Yeah.