The Inside Game: A Conversation with Dr. Nana Gyesie

Something happened to how we lead after 2020, and it wasn’t just remote work or new policies. It was the moment the noise got quiet enough for truth to show itself. Our host, Donald E. Coleman, sits down with Dr. Nana Gyesis for a deep, spiritual conversation about what he calls the “inside game” and why the inner world quietly determines the outer results we chase in leadership, coaching, and life.

We talk about what it means to see beyond the veil, to carry the discomfort of feeling different, and to turn that sensitivity into resilience and compassion. From there, we trace how the coaching profession points us back to internal states like presence, metacognition, and real awareness. We also zoom out to the culture shift leaders are facing now: AI changing the value of overfunctioning, a redefinition of work and identity, and why concepts like narcissistic leadership and the loneliness epidemic are suddenly part of mainstream business language.

Then we go all the way in: unbecoming, ego death, and non-duality. Dr. Nana breaks down how the protective self forms, why letting go can feel like a void, and how acceptance is not defeat but the release that allows new possibilities to emerge. We close with practical grounding practices, including Vipassana meditation, observing the mind, breath, and self-compassion as strength.

If you’ve been feeling the pressure of uncertainty, a career change, or the AI era’s constant acceleration, this conversation offers language and tools to lead from alignment rather than attachment. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs steadiness, and leave a review. What part of the “inside game” do you want to practice next?

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 1:07

All right. Welcome back to ICF San Diego's Coffee and Conversation Podcast. I have a special guest today. Like all my guests are special, but I have Dr. Nana JC here with me today, and we're going to go deep. I can feel that this is going to be a deep conversation. So if you're listening, driving in your car or somewhere, you might want to pause this one and pull over because we're going to wear we're going to go yeah deep. That's what I'm going to say. So, Dr. Nana, how are you, man? How are you doing today, brother?

SPEAKER_03 1:41

I'm keeping well. I'm keeping it good to be here with you. Wonderful to be here with you, Donna. It's great to be connected.

SPEAKER_04 1:47

Yes. See, look, he just said something profound, and I and I hope you caught that. He said keeping well, right? So no, he wasn't doing well. See, I'm I'm gonna pick up on all the nuances. Do you understand what I'm saying? So I I love this, man, because in this conversation, I'm just gonna put it up front. I want to go spiritual, I want to actually integrate the spiritual into this conversation because I don't think we do it enough, right? We we cause ourselves to be separate, which we can't, right? So yep.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Okay, all right.

SPEAKER_04 2:25

So so Dr. Nana, man, I'm I'm I'm gonna keep the doctor in front of that. Is that okay with you, man? Because I I know it takes a lot of work to get there, man. So I start out every interview with the platinum question. It to me, I think it's the question that kind of breaks the ground for us. So, what are the three or four events in your life that has most shaped who you are today?

SPEAKER_03 2:55

That's a very, very powerful opening. I'd say in no chronological order. The first is when I begun to see with the spiritual eye, see beyond the veil. And that's been a progressive journey, so that's probably the most profound. The second would be becoming a father to my three children, who are very special in the one right. And the third is is actually not an event, it's it's continuous. It's seeing the presence of an invisible hand in my life in every moment, minute by minute by minute by minute, even as we speak and the kind of day-to-day as did, and just flying with it. Yes. And you just see that from being in the presence and being with things as they are. So these these are some they're probably not simple, but I know that we are on the same wavelength. Your wavelength is probably more profound than mine, so you're sensitive into what I'm I'm pointing to.

SPEAKER_04 4:24

Yes, and and and I I again I'm going deep here because I I I just from from my own edification, I'm just gonna be honest with you. So you use the word, you said begun, right? Begun. And that to me means that as as you and I we were walking along, and then we noticed a shift, right? So can you speak about the begun or beginning and the noticing, right?

SPEAKER_03 4:53

Yeah, yeah. So when to be as accurate as I can be, I think the beginning was in the early memories have always been different in some way, but not knowing why one was different. Yes. Right? Even if one was in the neighborhood with similar people in the same schools or what have you, right? There was always a sense of I'm an outsider or I'm an observer or I am apart from, not better than or where's done. Yes. Sometimes the film was done because that was the impact of sensing that one was different, and then traumas that come with that. So that that was then that sense of one is a little outside that the matrix framework. Yes, yes. But until one matured over time, that always felt like a burden. But a burden of discomfort that I was okay with most of the time, but it's now a burden of comfort and discomfort that I'm I'm totally grateful for. Yes. Because it it's the the journey with that understanding, that beginning until now, has led to a certain sense of internal resilience that is relevant for the times, an internal sense of compassion that is relevant for the times, an internal sense of expansiveness, even in times when there seems to be contraction.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

And this firm recognition from one's perspective that there's nothing outside. That it's it's all an inside game. It's all the internal determines external circumstances. As counterintuitive as that may sound to us as humans, as leaders, as coaches, as opinion shapers, as leaders of the near earth, yeah. That that that may take some shifting because we are reliant on external frameworks and methodologies, but really the real framework is is internally driven. So I wandered off a little bit, but no, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 7:19

You didn't wander. You're never gonna hear me say you wandered because all that we're gonna get today is divinely ordered. Okay, so I I want to make sure we say that. So you said it's an inside game, yes, and and and I'd like for you to expand on that as we get ready to kind of open up the realm of leadership, right? And and even working in the public sector or working in the business sector. Let's talk about the inside game.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

Yeah. So you look at our competent ICF competencies and the ethics we adhere to. If you pay attention carefully, they're they're pointing to internal states. Yes. You may use more management friendly, leadership-friendly terminology like meta-cognition, presence, and things like that. But fundamentally, that's what it is. Leadership is also an insight game. It really is. If you pick any example of a great leader, and you can give me any example you want. Yes. And and we would very quickly find it's an insight game. In fact, I often quote this now, something I listened to about three weeks ago as an interview that the CEO of Palantir Technology, I mean, Equal Opportunity references, Palantir Technologies, right? Alex Carp was having with these two young men who appeared to be in the early 20s. So they asked him the question Well, you know, Alex Carp is very energetic, neurodivergent. So they asked him, uh, so what who's gonna run the feature? You know, in this AI-dominated change paradigm, who's who's gonna run it? And you know what he said to them? You can find this interview anywhere on TikTok, it's just two or three weeks old. Right. He said it's the neurodivergence. So neurodivergent, I mean, not to add labels, we want to go past labels, yes, but is referencing a way of being and seeing. And then he followed up with where it's like artists, speaking to that neurodivergent mindset, empathic, right? And so on. And in many ways, I would profit that a lot of coaches are neurodivergent in one way or another. And that's the framework that's needed in this paradigm we're in, this shift, the so-called great separation, great shift that we are now firmly in. For example, if we talk about capitalism, capitalism is pre-2020. We are now in an economic framework that some, like the former Greek finance minister called techno feudalism. Technofeudalism, not capitalism. Right. Then you look at what the predictions for AI and what it means for jobs, all this talk of universal basic income, and you realize what is the role of a coach in this paradigm that leaders are leading in. And then, of course, what it means to be a leader has been redefined. Yes. And there'll be bad behavior before there's good behavior, but now you're hearing terminology like narcissism in the workplace. Or not I I I was listening to uh actually saw LinkedIn as a post from Adam Grant and um Renee Brown doing a webinar on narcissistic leadership. I'm like, what? Yeah, this word is now in the mainstream. Yeah, it's like this this thing that only existed on the spiritual paradigms and some psychotherapeutic paradigms is now that Arthur Brooks is writing about this constantly in the Atlantic in the Atlantic. Yes.

Neurodivergence And The New Economy

2020 As A Global Threshold

SPEAKER_04 11:21

So this is what we're talking about. So so Dr. Nana, I I I'm so glad that that you're saying this, man, because I I've been saying this for a while now, that I believe that we are in a sacred convergence. That's what I'm calling it a sacred convergence. And what's happening is is that what we know spiritually is all starting to come to mainstream. It's it's right here in front of you. Just by that example, you're telling it's showing us exactly what's happening. It's all it's all merging, and and out of it, I'm seeing a level of truth that's coming with that. Like all this knowledge and all this information is confirming what ancients didn't have words for. Do you understand what I'm saying? It's like they didn't have a word for it, but yet they knew. They knew in the inside game. I'm I'm loving that word, bro. I'm I think I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna run with it because it's only right the inside game. But before we progress here, you mentioned about 2020, and I've said this over and over again that we can't tell now, but we're gonna look back and see that 2020 was a threshold, it was an awakening, a global awakening. What what what what say you about that?

SPEAKER_03 12:55

I it sounds like I'm talking to myself, just if happened, and doesn't it feel good to have somebody? There's no there's no explanation for stuff. Yes, you're you're right. I think if if we're to be metaphorical about it, yes, 2020. Oh, see 2020 vision.

SPEAKER_04 13:19

You went there, man. Yeah, like okay, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:23

2020 vision, yeah. Yes, that's that's the whole enchilada. What what that shutdown did is it forced all of us, yes, to stop running away from what we run away from that we call our lives, you know, this kind of useless busyness, yes, running around. And you realize that it was a force and function for all of us, from trillionaire to the person who sits on the streets and watches that goes by and it's a deep philosopher who understands it all. Yes, had the same experience. Yes, from Pacific Palisades to the homeless encampment just three blocks away from me. Yes, right. That there was no running, and when there's no running, what is always there reveals itself. Truth. Yes. So we saw how fragmented we are. Then you the former Surgeon General released a report on the loneliness epidemic in 2023, I think it makes. Yeah. The loneliness epidemic. Yeah, we and you think about this in the behavioral science, it says it takes seven days to recreate a new routine, 21 days to make it a habit, 90 days to make it a lifestyle, right? Right. I may be missing some of the dates there. But we went through approximately 18 to 24 months of behavioral change. Yes, yes, all different. Yeah, everything is shifted. What it means to interact with each other is changed. What it means to socialize is changing. What it means for interpersonal relationships is changing. What it means for intimate relationships is changing. What it means for leadership, subordinate relationships is changing. What it means for corporate social responsibility is changing. What it means for race relationships is changing. What it means for gender relationships, everything. Yes. And we are now family in the what Ecatolia would call the now. And the now is always a no. So this shift or the sacred convergence you talked about, doctor. The sacred convergence is then the nounness that we've never been to before, but for those who are connected to what Wayne Chandler calls the Asian future, which you pointed to, by referencing the shamanic and the modern, understand this. And for those who are seeing the challenges as a portal, are the ones who are prepared for the new earth. The new earth is not only for billionaires and trillionists with safety parts. Yeah. It's for those who prepared themselves for the most supreme safety part, which is alignment between the heart and the mind, or the body-mind, as someone called it. Yes. Coming into that kind of oneness, right? And therefore can transmit it to a toxic web culture where a leader may be able to influence that, to a family dynamic in couples' coaching where that affects five other families. One-on-one coaching, good dynamics. That there's the possibility of co-creating this near earth, which is very aligned to something in the Buddhist framework, and I'll stop here because I want to hear from you. Go ahead. Then this this this framework called the Bodhisattva. And the Bodhisattva, I'll just mention one of them. But I think this is what most coaches do. It doesn't matter what kind of coaching, transitions, executive, and so on is this. Sentient means are innumerable. A vow to save them all. Of course, with the right safeguards and boundaries, right? But sentient means are innumerable. A vow to save what we do.

Coaching As Sacred Unbecoming

SPEAKER_04 17:53

So you're you're touching on another thing, right? Like if you if you've talked to Anna, you understand that I I believe that coaching is a calling. I believe that we are called to this gift, let's just put it that way, right? It is a gift, and every time we have conversations, I now see those conversations as sacred. And you touched on a little bit about the power of coaching. So, but I want to bring in how has the power of coaching, so understanding the spiritual, but then bringing in the power of coaching, how has it changed your life personally and how you show up for others?

SPEAKER_03 18:48

Coaching has made me acutely aware of how we all want to be seen. And perhaps this goes to quantum physics feels very thin. And I think it's a potential observed, right? And so you think about I'm sure we've all seen a variation of this meme of a child at their school play, not sure if their parents have showed up, so they look worried while everyone is focused, and suddenly they see more and more dad, and then they light up. Yes, yes. This is what coaching does to me at a at an optimized apex level is to help a leader, uh a group, a put a leadership team, an individual, a family see in themselves what they cannot see.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

Well said.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

To see deeply, right? And here I'm going a little young in into the shadows. Because when you make what's hidden conscious, then there's infinite, yes, it's an adjustment to come into that infinite understanding from finite understanding. Yes. But it's all there, there's there's nothing to become. Apologies, Michelle Obama. There's there's there's there's more to unbecome. There's more to unbecome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well said. Well said. There's more to unbecome. Yes. And I think this is what we do is we help our clients unbecome on their own terms, and then unbecoming what what is or what can be is obvious. That path from the trauma you formed limited self-beliefs to I can do anything or I can achieve that or write that book happens, and that's the alchemy of what a true coach is.

Ego Death And Non-Dual Awareness

SPEAKER_04 20:58

Yes. Yeah. Unbecoming, man. Unbecoming. And and you you touched on something that I'm just gonna bring it up because in the in the part of the information you talked about an awareness of non-duality, yes, and ego death, right? Yeah, so in that aspect, is that not all part of the unbecoming, right? Right? I mean, look what you're saying here. So, like you said, healed from trauma, right? When you get healed from trauma, right? Healed from the wounds, and then the awareness of non-duality and ego death, because that's all it allows you to create something. I call it the protective self, psychology calls it the false self, you know, or the authentic self. But you are you're creating something so that you can be seen, heard, and you know what I mean? So, so say a little bit more about this awareness of the non-duality and the the process of ego death because I know it's not sudden, I know it's gradual, and it's a life journey.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

Wow, wow, wow, wow, awful.

SPEAKER_04 22:18

You went all the way in. I did. I'm like, I'm we're we're sitting here at the riverbank. Let's dive into the water now.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

So we think about the two, they disaggregate them first. Ego death. Yes. So what does it mean to have an ego dead? We know the ego is useful as far as saying that's done on that's nana, so forth, right? But then the conditioned ego becomes a problem. Yes. Because it inhibits it limits. Well said. So so the ego death that's spoken off in transformation or spiritual awakening is about no longer identifying with this false self that, as you said, needs to be seen, this adaptive, yeah, false self or protective self because identity. So that's the purpose of the ego death. And when that initially happens, there's a nothingness, a void, a seeming void. Who am I? I'm not a man, I'm not a woman, I'm not whoever, I don't have this car, that kind of thing. There's a seminvoid. And the purpose of that seminavoid is to strip you of the false accoutrement that creates a Z voy. Yeah. Don't all the E callword. Right, right. Right? To wait, I am not that. And whatever the appellations were, it could be a marriage, it could be sure, a promotion, it could be anything that brings you to that understanding. And when you're separated from the false things that made the false open, there's no nothing solid to hold on to.

SPEAKER_04 24:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

Right? Then you begin to identify with what is no longer solid.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 24:07

And when you start to identify with what's no longer solid, you become accepting of your circumstances in that transition. And in that acceptance, in that moment of transition, there is spaciousness. And in that spaciousness, there's a connectedness to something beyond the self. Yes. But you didn't do that. And that's where you shift from duality separation to non-duality. Because think about it, good and bad are not supposed to be points of separation judgment. Like you know, sister chapel, angels and demons, hierarchy.

SPEAKER_04 24:50

Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

What they are are found is a spectrum of dark and light, of unwise to wise, of unoptimized to optimized. And the thing that separates the spectrum is wisdom or the lack of wisdom or ignorance or the prevalence of ignorance. So in that you're not even judgmental of somebody who is seemingly problematic. Yeah. Because if they are walking up to ego death and non-duality, they would not be driven by the ego. So if they are driven by the ego, then immediately you know this is a person who suffers from the illusions and doomself. So the wiser leader can resolve conflicts fast. Yep. You know, the relationship dynamic can be shifted. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Because that false self is an illusion. But it's an illusion that it is real and solid until you're confronted with things that force on ego death.

Bringing Spirit Into Business And AI

SPEAKER_04 26:04

Yes. So so Dr. Nana, how do you how do you bring this? Or how do you, with your clients and stuff, how do you get this into the business arena, man? Because in reality, it's like, man, that's too woofo for me. You know, it's too far out there. But in reality, it's everything, bro. What we're talking about is the lift.

SPEAKER_03 26:27

Internal family systems is not talking about uh spirituality. Yes, Richard Schwartz stuff. You're not talking about metacognition as a leader. What's metacognition? That's observing your thoughts. Yes. And by the way, you actually get smarter when you allow yourself to breathe. The moment you breathe, space, intelligence in the moment. Yes. That's dix dramatic healing. You know, leaders are readers. You read, study, then you practice, then you realize, optimize. Yes. That's that's the same thing on the spiritual world. And by the way, everything is spirit. The internet is based off the world of the spider's web. Bluetooth, and who's ever seen Bluetooth? That's based off ESP, extrasensory perception. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 27:19

Do you see? Okay. I I am seeing now. So here's the thing what's interesting, because you just said Bluetooth. Now I've seen that movie. I've never watched it. I've seen the advertisement for multiple different times. And in my, I would say, in my uninformed state, I bought into the Bluetooth, right? And and the and the Blackberry, right? Same, same concept. But you just you just threw something out there. And it's like, again, we're all being attached. And the unbecoming is unattachment, right? Even to outcomes and circumstances.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

Especially now when you are at a point in time where a certain level of exertion is no longer needed because we have artificial intelligence. So what kind of brain is adapted for this paradigm? Okay. So if you're traumatized and used to overfunctioning, your value from overfunction is no longer relevant in a paradigm when you have AI tools that can spin out an email in five seconds. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So what is the mind and consciousness that's adapted for the now moment? And I think a lot of taking a spiritual perspective gives the answers to this great unknown. All the certainty is in the unknown.

SPEAKER_04 28:41

I I wow, that was wonderful. And the in the now moment, I love it because I call it stay in the present, right? And for and the present and and for for me, I've learned to I've learned to live at this place where I call it being empty, where I spent 25 years in the corporate arena, and I was so full that nothing else could come in. Does that make sense? Like I had all of these agendas, these plans, these goals, and all this stuff, and it's so full that nothing new could literally come in.

SPEAKER_03 29:20

That's it. And when nothing new can come in, there is no neuroplasticity. Yes. Yeah. When there's no neuroplasticity, you are a dinosaur.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

And when you're at a dinosaur in this current moment, you become part of what historian Yuvan Moah Harari called the useless class.

SPEAKER_04 29:49

I'm sitting with that, Doctor. That because we don't see it that way, man. Do you understand what I'm saying? And I think that's what you're talking about, unbecoming or or being awakened, right? Because I I believe that we're in one of the greatest spiritual awakenings of human history, right? And what's happening is you're you're seeing a lot of noise, but those that are awake and aware, they're tuning in away from the noise because that's where where where reality is and that's where truth is, right? That's it.

SPEAKER_03 30:28

You said it. You said it. I feel like we can go on and on for all. No, we can't.

Grounding Practices When Pressure Hits

SPEAKER_04 30:34

So for the sake of our listeners, man, here's here's one question that I want. So at this stage in your life and work, what helps you stay grounded when outcomes are uncertain and the pressure is high? I think you just said it, but summarize that for me to help the listener.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

So personal practice that I have is I practice vipassana meditation. Okay. Which is effectively observing of the mind. Okay. And then breath. So that for me is everything. Observation of the mind. Because in that you can disaggregate between ego and point to that out. Sure. Yep. Between duality and non-duality, and then acceptance. And acceptance is not defeat. Acceptance is a releasement of an attachment to outcomes. So new possibilities can emerge organically. That's the magic of acceptance. Yes. And meditation gives me space, yes. Got it. Yes. It's all internally driven. There's nothing outside.

SPEAKER_04 31:43

So, Dr. Nana, how how does one begin? Right? That that's your personal practice. I I have the same. I I go into solitude and stillness. But but how does one begin? They're sensing this, man. Like you're being led to this, but they don't know that they're being led.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

Exactly. The the first in some quarters is you know, fame begins by hearing. Yes. Yeah. So so whoever's hearing this, kudos. Yes. Let it let it seed that then if it plants the seeds, it will germinate. So it's exposing yourself to a different paradigm that pushes your comfort level to discomfort. Because discomfort, good discomfort or good trouble, as John Lewis would say, is a point of growth. Yes. Right. So good discomfort in this. If this makes you uncomfortable but piques your interest, that's the first step. Now the second step is who's doing what you want to do and find out how they did it. Whether they've mastered resilience, they've mastered wisdom, they've mastered cowl, they've mastered non-responde, non-reactiveness, whatever the thing is. How do they do it? Because it's non-accidental. You, my dear brother, I know either sway because of intentional practices. Yeah, there's native wisdom, but also your intentional practices. And so there's no accident to this. Absolutely. It's cultivated. And as they say, before enlightenment, chop would carry water. After enlightenment, chop would carry water. Meaning just start where you are. You cannot start anywhere else but where you are. And and and that's all you need. Yeah. To just begin.

SPEAKER_04 33:39

Oh man, I love it. I I truly appreciate what you just said because intention and attention changes everything.

SPEAKER_03 33:49

Yes, yes. Yes. Intention, attention.

SPEAKER_04 33:52

You know what I mean? It's like it's it allows you to like, okay, I'm no longer just going to wander through. I'm gonna pause in this moment or I'm gonna do this. And it just it shifts. Man, I I can't explain it in words, but something happens, man. It's just like, yeah, I don't even know how to say it, brother.

SPEAKER_03 34:15

That's it. Yeah, that's exactly that's exactly it. Yeah, so so wonderful to connect with you. This has a real been a real pleasure.

SPEAKER_04 34:24

So, and I know we're getting ready to go. I know you gotta go here. So as we end this, I I just and I'd love to have you back because I want to go deeper conversation, all right? So we we can come back. But as you reflect on your journey, what do you want people to uh what do you hope people feel? I'm I'm using the word feel here when they're in your presence before they ever attempt to change anything.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

I want people to feel they are perfect as they are where they are and to begin exactly there.

SPEAKER_03 35:20

I think that's we're so hard on ourselves, yes. And softness and self-compassion is the portal to strength. Yeah, softness is strength, yes, you know, so so starting from a position of self-compassion, yes, it's okay, Nana, it's okay, Donald. You know, the past doesn't matter. I made that decision and it cost me this much. I did this, I got laid off, whatever the thing is. Being soft first, yes, because when you start there, then you know like nothing can stop you. Right, right. It's like a sissy, you know, you can there's nothing to stop you.

SPEAKER_04 36:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

And I appreciate no one can give you that. No one can give you that.

SPEAKER_04 36:13

No, and I agree, and I appreciate what you did, and I want the listener and I want to point this out that you just modeled a sacred pause. So you didn't just automatically go into an answer, you you you sat in that, and that's part of living in that now, and that's part of the spaciousness of being, you know what I mean? So, man, I don't want to say so long, right? Because to be continued, I want to end this with to be continued. This has been awesome.

SPEAKER_03 36:46

Uh sending you lots of gratitude, and I also look forward to learning from you.

SPEAKER_04 36:51

Oh no, we're we're gonna connect. I for sure, for sure. We're gonna connect on this one, man. And thank you for granting me some of your time today and and more to come. I appreciate it. All right. All right, all right, brother.

SPEAKER_03 37:03

Peace, please, please, please.