Surviving Transphobia

Every day seems to bring another headline, or another policy, another attempt to make trans lives disappear altogether. As Mama Dragons, we know this fear intimately. We carry it in our bodies, even as we keep showing up for our kids and our communities. Today In the Den, Sara sits down with Dru Levasseur, an openly trans attorney, nationally recognized advocate, and a leader in the fight for trans rights for more than 25 years, to discuss what it really means to survive transphobia—not just legally or politically, but emotionally, spiritually, and collectively. It’s a conversation about what the power of authenticity looks like and feels like in these times and includes some practical strategies for staying grounded and strong amid unrelenting attacks. 

Special Guest: Dru Levasseur

M. Dru Levasseur, Esq. is a high-energy presenter, leading advisor, and seasoned strategist with extensive experience in law, diversity & inclusion, advocacy, policy, and

philanthropy. A recognized leader in the LGBTQ+ equality movement for more than 25

years, he now leads his own coaching and consulting practice, Dru Levasseur Consulting , LLC. He previously served as the Director of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion for the National LGBTQ+ Bar, creating and leading its DEI Consulting Practice, the first LGBTQ+ inclusion coaching and consulting program designed specifically to enable the implementation of best practice standards for LGBTQ+ equity in the legal profession. Dru directed Lambda Legal's Transgender Rights Project from 2009 to 2019, attending the first transgender policy meeting at the White House in 2011, and serving as counsel in landmark impact litigation cases and amicus briefs in federal courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court. He co-founded a national trans-led nonprofit, the Jim Collins Foundation, and currently serves alongside Gloria Steinem and other notable feminists as a board member for the ERA Coalition and Fund for Women's Equality. A national and international media spokesperson, Dru contributed the chapter, “Your Authenticity is Your Power: Tales of a Trans Lawyer” in the 2023 book, Surviving Transphobia. Harvard Law School selected him as a Wasserstein Fellow. He is admitted in New York, Georgia, D.C., and Massachusetts.

Links from the Show:

• Surviving Transphobia is available here.
• Dru’s website
• Join Mama Dragons today

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons. A podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here.

Hello, Mama Dragons. You know, life right now feels a little relentless, especially for trans and non-binary beloveds and the families who love them. Every day seems to bring yet another headline, or another policy, or another attempt to try and make trans lives disappear altogether. As Mama Dragons, we know this fear intimately. We carry it in our bodies, even as we keep showing up for our kids and our communities. And that's why today's conversation matters so much. Today, we are so honored to welcome Dru Levasseur, an openly trans attorney, nationally recognized advocate and leader in the fight for trans rights for more than 25 years. Dru has spent decades on the front lines as a litigator, as a DEI strategist, as a grassroots organizer, pushing back against systems that harm trans and non-binary people, and helping build something stronger in their place. Dru is also a contributor to the beautiful book, Surviving Transphobia, with a powerful chapter titled, “Your Authenticity is Your Power, Tales from a Trans Lawyer.” I can't wait to talk more about that one. We're going to get into what authenticity looks like and what it really means to survive transphobia, not just legally or politically but emotionally, spiritually, collectively, and talk about how the power of authenticity plays into that, especially in these times. So Dru, welcome to In the Den. It is so good to have you with us.

DRU: It's so wonderful to be here. Thank you for having me.

SARA: You're so welcome. Not too long ago, you gave a keynote for the Provincetown Business Guild Trans Week – that they have a Trans Week is beautiful – and I know that your talk was called “Stronger Together, Resilience in Unprecedented Times,” where you talked about how we navigate this continued relentless anti-trans backlash that we're seeing and experiencing. And I wanted to start there. You name it in your title, Unprecedented Times, and so many of us and our beloveds are struggling with how much is coming at us all at once, how unprecedented it is. So, give us your wisdom. What does resilience look like right now, and how do we build it and strengthen it?

DRU: Yay! Okay, thank you. I love this prompt. First of all, I just want to say Thank You to all of the parents, all the mamas out there for supporting your trans kids. I feel emotional starting off this interview because I just feel so grateful. It's been such a scary, hard time. And when anybody ever tells me they have a trans or non-binary kid, the first thing I say is, “Congratulations! And how awesome! And how lucky are you?” And so I kind of want to just start off with that. But yeah. It's been an unprecedented time. You know, I transitioned a couple of decades ago. And thought, “Oh, you know, I got all my identity documents changed and now let me go off and fight for my community and, you know, help other people.” And I have to say,, this past year, I have never felt the level of fear myself on a personal level. So I can only imagine people who are maybe new to the community or new to having a trans or non-binary kid and how terrifying this is. This is not normal. This is unprecedented. And the reason I wanted to talk about resiliency at the Trans Week conference was because I think there was a mixture of folks in the room. This is the longest running trans conference in the world. It is as old as me. They started it in 1975. And it used to be called Fantasia Fair. And it was a conference where a lot of people would fly in from around the world and be themselves for a week. And then fly back to their lives and struggle and just wait for the time where they could go be themselves again. And that was our history. And so, I started off this talk in P-Town asking how many people were here in the decade of 1975 to 85, and we had one person in the room raise their hand. And I went through all the decades so that the community could feel the history in the room, how we've always been around and we always will be no matter what they try to do to get rid of us. I mean, we're part of the fabric of society. And we're not going anywhere. So, it was really important for me to kind of tap into the history, the shoulders that I stood on of the people who came before me, you know, helped make the world a place where I could envision being who I am. And the work that I've done, and seeing the next generation of people who have a different experience, and so on. So I feel like that resiliency is really important right now when we're all feeling really unsettled and overwhelmed, to remember the strength that we all have inside of ourselves but also when we're here in community together.

SARA: Oh, thank you for that. In the busyness, I sometimes forget about all of that, forget about that long arc, if you will, of existence and surviving and thriving. And I'm delighted to know that about the conference. But thanks for that affirmation for all the parents and our community, as sometimes we can forget what a blessing it is. You know, as you were talking about unprecedented times, I just wanted to bring in the most current headline as an example to just talk about together. I'm thinking of Erin in the Morning’s reporting about Chicago's Lurie Children's Hospital, one of the only independent, research-driven children's hospitals in Illinois, rolling back healthcare for trans youth basically, because of federal investigation threats from the Department of Health and Human Services. And we're just watching that across the country, long-standing institutions. And I know that that builds up so much anxiety for people to try to think about, what do we do in this moment? How do we resist? But also how do we protect? And how do we care for our kids and our beloveds? What are some practical strategies you've learned over the decades for staying grounded and resilient, as you mentioned, but also present?

DRU: Yeah. It's so unbelievably disappointing seeing all these rollbacks. That's just an understatement. It's enraging to see people's behaviors and institutions. They’re failures right now. It's just, it's not okay because there is a real impact, as you know, on people's lives. And we have to fight. Right now working as a consultant, as a health equity consultant for Equality Connecticut. And we saw similar steps taken by the Children's Hospital and Yale in Connecticut, preemptively doing these steps. And you know, we just saw GLAAD file the lawsuit in that case. And so I think we need to take all these actions to fight like hell. But getting back to that thought around resiliency, one time I attended a Zoom funeral for a trans elder, and Susan Stryker, who wrote Transgender History, was there on the call. And she spoke, talking about how we existed before there were any laws, or before there were any clinics like this in the hospitals where we didn't have protections. And a lot of people right now, I've only known a world where we passed these laws, and then they're being taken away. But it was powerful for me to hear from somebody saying, reminding us that we came from nothing, we didn't have any of that, and we were okay. And we survived. So we are going to get through this, and it's important to connect with people who have been around through those times to know the creativity that we've had to have all these years. And pulling from those kinds of strategies now is critical. We need all the strategies. We need the litigation. We need the activists. We need the families telling stories. We need everybody stepping up. And I keep saying this over and over, but we have never needed our allies more than now. We need you to stand with us and up for us. And so this is a moment, this is an opportunity for so many people to be on the right side of history. And I think it's really appropriate to feel fear and also rage and then get back out there. Take a breath and then get back out there and continue to fight. 

SARA: Thank you. It reminds me of – you know, we've heard that story go around before in moments like this of being in a choir. And when a choir has to sustain a long, long note at the end of a piece and people sneak breaths in between, but the choir as a whole is sustaining itself. And resistance movements look like that as well. It's okay to take your breath. But come back in so that someone else can take their breath. You're talking about allyship, which is great, and how important it is for allies to really step up in this moment. What does that look like specifically? What are some things that we could go and tell ourselves as allies, our friends who are like, what do I do? How can I help?

DRU: Yes, I mean, I keep offering this to people. If you need, in your context, to know what you could do, I would love to hear directly from you because I will give you a task. It's always so context-driven. You know, it's like, “Well, what can we do?” It's like, well, there are so many opportunities all day long for all of us to be allies to someone. Like, we're all allies to someone. And it's either we're going to do the work, and say the thing in that moment, and step up. Or we're going to let it go and not do the thing. And so, I think it's a daily practice of allyship, is where there are opportunities for people to say something. But staying silent right now is being complicit. And that's what's really tricky. The number one thing I hear from trans and non-binary people, when they say, “Where are the pain points?” It's the silence. It's the bystander silence. Speak up. Otherwise, you are part of what's happening right now. I mean, was it last week they talked about, in Genocide Scholars, saying that we're the beginning to mid-stages of genocide for trans and intersex people in the United States. That is the call to action for everyone that you are going to either step up right now and stand with and fight for trans people. Or you are going to be part of what is happening, the larger United States right now, which is targeting of trans and non-binary and intersex people. So, I really do think there's so many examples of what action you can do. But you know best, throughout your day, whether it's you overhear a comment. You say something to a family member. You take that action. You reach out to a trans person that you know. You attend the group. You're in community. There's so many different things you can do. You can move resources and money to trans-led organizations. I could go on and on. But it really is, if you don't have an idea, I'd love to inspire people and give people an action item.

SARA: What you just named is really helpful, really good practical ways to think about how we show up as allies. And we'll also put Dru's website in our show notes. And so if folks want to get in touch with you directly and have a deeper conversation, thanks for inviting that. Because I think also for some parents in particular, and I'm thinking parents maybe who are newer on this journey, and just beginning to learn and know and understand who their kids are, who their kids are telling them they are. And that can be a real struggle. And so the early phases of that allyship is just listening and learning.

DRU: Absolutely.

SARA: And then working your way to how you show up in bigger and more public ways.

DRU: Yes. And sometimes the biggest ally move, like you said, could just be really personal. It's about trusting your child, or like you said, listening and learning and taking a pause. That could be really powerful. I just learned yesterday during my own coaching call, it was about, how you can't take away other people's suffering in the world, which is so hard that we can't, especially when it's a family member. But you can control how much suffering you're adding to the situation. Like, we can all add more suffering, right? We can't take it away. But we could make sure we're not adding more. And I want to think more about that, because it's like, how are we contributing to the suffering? And then what are the things we are doing that can try to stand up for people?

SARA: Yeah, thank you. In thinking about not adding more suffering, but also in addressing it in some way. How do we engage with it? And we cannot take it away, but we can certainly support and offer some care. And this idea of collective care and community care is being talked about in a lot of organizing spaces, in a lot of identity spaces. Can you talk about that a little bit, and how people and communities can practice that intentionally?

DRU: Yeah. It's funny, because – I'll talk more about my journey if you want – I thought, “Oh, the way to go is to become a lawyer. And then you fight and you win these cases and you do all this stuff.” And most of my career, I was so purposefully unavailable because I would be out here. I have to do this policy work. I have to work on this litigation, or so on. And you couldn't really reach me. Like, I was the director of the Trans Rights Project at Lambda Legal, which is the oldest, largest LGBT legal organization. And we would get 7,000 calls a year. And we would only take a handful of cases. So it was of high volume. And I thought, “Oh, this way to really impact is to win these cases, talking to the media, and being out there.” And it’s funny because as the wave goes with justice and the circle happens, a lot of the cases that I won, they’ve all been overturned. So I think in my journey, I realized that the biggest impact I can have now is be more available. And the antidote to so many dangers and problems for us – the isolation – to be in community. And the power of community cannot be understated, especially in this moment. It is what we need the most. And so my full circle of that, even on a personal but also on a political level, is that we are most powerful when we’re in community and we’re not isolating. And we need each other. And we need each other very much right now. And that’s how we find our way. So what I want people to think about is just that, if you’re feeling isolated, there are ways to plug in. And it can look, again, like so many different things. It might be getting out of the house, showing up somewhere, connecting with somebody, coming to groups, knowing you’re not alone. That is the journey where we get stronger. So I just think that’s our survival right now. And so a lot of the work I’ve been doing has been trying to create spaces, particularly for trans and non-binary people to be in community. I started a couple of groups. But right now one of them is called the Trans Legal Professionals Networking Program. And it’s for law students, judges, lawyers, business professionals who work in law firms, everybody. So we have federal employees, trans lawyers who are working for the federal government, non profit. So it’s been an amazing group where people are coming from all different points in their career. And what we have in common is that we’re legal professionals and we’re trans or nonbinary. And it has been life-changing for a lot of people. The feedback I’ve had – it's just one hour a month every last Friday of the month – The feedback I’ve had from people is that it not only helped them stay in their career, but it also helped them stay alive. And that’s a sign that people need to be in community. And it works. So that’s just one example. But I just think being available and leaning into the community – and myself as a member of the community – has been really life-giving.

SARA: That is incredible. That sounds amazing. And I have no doubt a really valuable place for professionals in this moment. And I just think, what a gift particularly for those either working in the federal government or against the federal government, just what can feel like a very lonely place, I’m sure. And one of the pieces of wisdom that we continue to hear, I think comes up a lot right now, is particularly with the trans and queer communities, is that survival is resistance. Surviving and thriving is resistance. And I’m thinking about your chapter that you wrote for the book, Surviving Transphobia, and your chapter title “Authenticity is Your Power.” Can you talk more about how that chapter came to be and why you decided to hone in on authenticity as a power for survival?

DRU: Yeah. I have experienced that the more authentic I’ve been able to be in m life, the more powerful I feel, the more I’ve been able to enjoy my life, the more I can be in my body and be present. It’s a powerful thing. And I know that data supports that, like people in the workplace, when they’re able to be themselves, for example, that they do their best work. They’re not doing all this energy of trying to pretend or hide parts of themselves or try to play a role. It’s when people can actually bring their most powerful version of themselves. So we know that. But I wanted to talk about that because I think my journey, my life so far, has been about accepting who I am and allowing myself to be myself. That’s just been a really hard thing to do when you’re a queer, trans kid and the world is telling you that there’s something wrong with you by who you happen to be. And it’s not your fault who you are, a beautiful part of humanity. But when you’re feeling like, “Oh my gosh. There’s something wrong here. I spend so much of my life trying to be a good kid and please the people around me.” And when you’re at war in trying to hide parts of yourself, it’s just so unhealthy. It’s not good for you. It’s not good for anyone around you. And that’s a really scary thing when we’re pressuring people. So my survival and my thriving has been a journey of allowing myself to be my authentic self, realizing that’s healthy, realizing that this is a normal human variation of being transgender. That we’re everywhere and that’s OK, and that it’s not my fault and that there’s nothing wrong with me. And, in fact, there’s something really powerful about this life journey that gives me so many insights and powers. So I wanted to write this chapter also because I was this fancy, well-known, the trans lawyer. There were like five of us and we all knew each other at the time. And I felt the pressure to show up and be so presentable. And that’s not really true. My journey was way messier and harder than when I would stand in front of lawyers and try to act like I know everything. That’s just not the truth. And it’s been a journey for me to be able to acknowledge how difficult my life was and how much I’ve overcome and how messy it was. That’s not what they want to hear when I’m presenting before thousands of lawyers and acting like the expert. So I wanted people to know that if I can do it, you can do it. So it’s a messier version, it’s a more authentic version of my story, of being a first-generation lawyer, being poor, being visibly gender-nonconforming and the struggles I went through. I didn’t go straight through school. I ended up taking the nine-year, four-schools, women’s studies degree, only to transition to be a dude in law school. It was very complicated. And I needed to find my way in a backdrop of so much struggle and a lack of support in so many ways from society and beyond. And even my parents’ journey, I touch on that in my chapter. I was raised Catholic. My mom was a nun – And thank God that didn’t work out very well for my sister and I – but that being raised in a religious background really actually gave me a lot of my social justice passion and framework. But it also put a lot of barriers there around, I wanted to be a good kid and it was a very hard journey for – not just for me but for my parents to understand my first time I came out as gay and then ten years later as trans – it was like they were scared for me, all the things that you know, just doubting, “Is this the right thing?” And they had to trust me. And the hardest part was that – I say this in the book – the moment that I needed the most support in my journey when I was at most risk and I was the highest struggle was the moment where they had the least information or understanding. And that is a hard kind of timing I see that happens to a lot of people when they’re looking for their family acceptance and it’s the time where the family – they need time and they need the information. They need to process it. Sometimes those are very critical, badly-timed moments. And that happened for me. And somehow I got through that and my family went on their own journey. And my mom later testified before the Connecticut Legislature for the Trans Bill in 2010, you know, kindergarten teacher with a trans, lawyer son. And they’re champions for trans rights now. But their journey was hard. And so was mine. And so I wanted to share that. You see me as this put-together lawyer, and no. If you are struggling, I’m sure I had that struggle too. And there’s nothing wrong with you and if I could do it, you can do it.

SARA: Wow. I have so many questions. Thank you for naming the struggle. And so given you’re on the other side of it with, now, your champion parents, if you could go back to that time when you said the worst part and what you needed most was when they weren’t there, what do you wish? For the parents among us, we need to hear this. What do you wish your parents had said to you or done for you?

DRU: I wish that they could’ve said something that actually someone else said to me which really got me through. When I was transitioning during law school, I was terrified. It was a really bad timing, honestly. And I went to find the LGBT professors because I thought, “They’ll help me.” And they were highly unavailable, to be honest. And I ended up becoming a lawyer and sitting here with you right now because this straight, white clinical professor lady with five kids said these words to me, “Dru, I don’t know anything about this, but we’re going to get through this together.” And I talk about her. Lauren Crassick was her name. I needed someone to say that to me. I didn’t need my parents to know or understand or get it. I just needed them to say, “I don’t get it, but I’m with you and I trust you.” And that was, I think, what was really the most difficult. And I saw this professor this past year, 20 years later and I said, “Lauren, I’ve been telling this story to 40,000 people.” And she was like, “Oh, I don’t remember saying that to you.” It’s like, well don’t worry about it. You did. It was funny.

SARA: Thank you for that honesty. It’s so important. Even speaking for myself and I’m years and years into this journey now, but to recognize and understand how powerful those simple words can be to anyone in my life who comes to me who is coming out, or with any struggle really, that I might not understand, those words are just really powerful words. And I appreciate that so much. I’m also curious to hear a little bit more about your coming out story in your journey too because it also helps people understand, both the variation of the journey but there is also some universality to it as well when we hear all these other stories.

DRU: Yeah. Well, the first coming out, I was like 17, 18. I went off to college and I was like, “Oh, I think I’m gay.” And it’s funny because I look back on childhood photos and I’m like, “Wow that was so obviously probably to everybody but me.” I was such a tomboy. I was a jock. And I was like all the things. But that coming out, there was the extended Catholic family, was like the disappointment, the fear, “Oh, -- her at the time – her life’s going to be harder!” And that kind of, everybody seemed a little ashamed of me. And I felt that. I’m a very empathetic person. I was like, “Uh-oh.” I could feel the disappointment in that. We, queer – trans kids especially – have spidey sense. We can pick up on it, so just to be aware. But for that coming out there was a sub-culture. You could go to a gay bar. There was magazines. I found a bookshop, a lesbian softball team. I did all the things. It was like a subculture where, yeah, you’re like a second-rate citizen, but there’s a place for you. That was before Ellen in the early 90’s. And so the second coming out was drastically different for me. As I had to acknowledge that I had been swimming in a culture that was not just homophobic, but incredibly transphobic. And I had internalized a lot of that, like little nuances in songs I heard growing up or little comments here and there. I had to address that I was very transphobic. And when I thought I might be trans, it felt like digging my heels in and saying, “Please, don’t let this be me.” Because I just couldn’t imagine being okay with myself. I really, deeply didn’t want to be trans. And it was very hard for me to accept myself. I tell people that because when someone gets to the point where they’re actually sharing with you that news, they probably had to deal with their own struggle around that to get to the point. And that is such a hard journey. The first wave when just you and yourself know, and you’re swimming in a world – even especially now – so much hatred. It’s a terrifying thing. So good for you that the person is at the point where they can tell somebody, even just one other person. But that coming out was like, I looked around – this was in 2002 – and I was like, “Oh boy.” The isolation. It was the opposite. It wasn’t like, oh there’s all this community and it will be – it was like, you’re going to be alone and the only thing I could find was stories of people like me being either dying by suicide or being killed. And also, if you need any healthcare as part of your journey, you’re going to have to figure that out yourself. So that was the landscape. There was no laws. Nobody even knew about it. And it was very, very, very scary for me. And I found, I had to go through a few therapists. That’s something I’ll share is that sometimes a therapist doesn’t know everything and isn’t good. So you have to find somebody who actually works well with you. And I credit my therapist who has now passed away, Nancy Kirk. She gave me the feeling, I think she said to me in the first meeting, “You’re in the driver seat. And I’m in the back seat and we’re in this together." It was the same feeling of somebody trusting me that I know myself and that they’re going to be with me. I didn’t need anyone to fix me. I needed someone to be in the back seat with me so that I wasn’t alone. And I needed them to trust me and remind me that I know how to drive my own car. And that, for me, was how – then she said, “You really need to go meet with other trans guys.” And I was like, “I don’t want to meet any other trans people, ever. I just want to stay alone.” And it was really hard for me to show up to some support groups. And it was really, really hard. And that was the opening. So it was then I started realizing that everything I’m thinking, someone else is thinking too. They have the same fear. They have the same struggle. And then that’s how you start realizing there’s nothing wrong with me and there’s nothing wrong with us. And it built from there. And then my activism began because immediately, every day, going out in the world and I didn’t want to medically transition at the time. And I just didn’t look like how I felt. And so everybody, all day long, was getting it wrong. And it was so incredibly painful to be called the wrong pronoun. It was like a thousand paper cuts. And on top of that, I was trying to go to law school which was just “Whoo”. So it was so difficult for me to, every day, decide how I was going to present myself, what clothes to wear, how I’m going to handle that. And you have to find little breaks for yourself of support, the person who sees you, the one who gets your pronouns right, the person who tells you they like whatever you’re wearing, those types of things. Those community members got me through that to the place where I started being that person for other people. And that was my journey.

SARA: Wow. I’m listening to you and hearing the journey of survival through all of that to where you are now, out and loud and active and authentic. And it’s such a beautiful story and I’m sure relatable to a lot of people. For trans and nonbinary folks who are being told, as you’ve experienced – explicitly or implicitly because that transphobia hasn’t gone away and our attachment to binary culture still rages pretty hard despite the growth that we’ve seen – so in that environment, and people are either being told or feel they have to hide themselves for safety. How do you think about or help them through this tension between authenticity and survival and safety?

DRU: Yeah. There’s a cost either way. And I think it’s such a personal decision around what you need at any given time. You have to be on your own timeframe without any judgement. But I will say that, for trans people and nonbinary people, it’s not going to keep you safe to not be who you are. You’re still going to be who you are and you’re going to be suffering in a different way. There’s a power to really embracing it and saying, “This is who I am,” because then you have a purpose. You can overcome anything when something really matters to you. Like how do you overcome fear? I’ll be afraid to speak in front of a large crowd or something. But I have a panic attack. And then I’m like, “Wait a minute. No. This matters to me. It matters to me to say these words.” And that’s how you can overcome your fear. So when you’re trying to analyze, is it safe for me to be out right now? How could I be my authentic self in this hellscape where everybody’s targeting trans people?

SARA: Right.

DRU: It’s like, well what is at stake if I don’t do that? And there are real studies, again, around the health implications of people when they’re in the closet. There’s an impact on you. And I’ll say this also, not just to trans and nonbinary people, but to people being afraid of being associated with us, that we saw a lot of our natural allies in the past year head for the hills, like people within the LGB community even, just being like, “What?” Just trying to distance themselves from the targeted group. “They’re coming for trans and nonbinary people first, so let me not be associated. Let me cut ties. Let me not be vocal.” You’re not safe by doing that, either. So the idea that I’m going to keep myself safe by shutting up and staying over here or hiding out, it doesn’t feel very good to do that. And we all had to do some level of that, I’m sure. I had a couple of weeks there where I was like, “Oh my God, I’ve never felt this level of fear.” And then I had to take a breath and then realize what matters to me and then get back out there. But there’s something about, there’s a calm and a presence that comes when you are living your life in your authenticity because this is what you’re here for. Tomorrow’s not promised and you’re a unique person, and you have a journey. And when you embrace it, it’s kind of amazing what comes with that and how much you can impact people and how great you feel. I don’t know, there’s just something really important about that that I realized. And I won’t say that I didn’t have those moments where I was like, “Maybe I’ll just try to hide it and not be that.” It felt so bad to me to do that that I realized there was some power for me to go the other way.

SARA: Yeah. This conversation about the distancing, particularly from people in the queer community, and I’m curious how you think about one of the conversations that we’ve been having that’s been kind of a through-line of late on the podcast in this political climate, this political idea on the left of distancing so that in order to win back, take back the political sphere, we – the progressive liberal left – have to distance ourselves from this highly inflammatory niche space of trans rights in order to win and that that should be understandable. People should get on board with that. How do you think about that? How do you talk about that?

DRU: I mean, from my perspective, I feel like I’ve been experiencing that, observing that, feeling that happening the whole time. So on one level, I feel like this past year has been a little bit refreshing because it’s been like, this is what people will say behind closed doors. And now they feel emboldened to be like, “Oh yeah, I don’t know why the ‘T’ is part of that anyways.” My career, when I became a lawyer, I combined my identity. I did an email to my extended Catholic family that said, “Graduation and Gender Update.” My career has been at the same time as being a trans person and being a lawyer. And my work has been largely in LGBTQ+ spaces where the ‘T’ was marginalized. And I have been that pain in the butt trans person at the table saying, “What about trans people?” And the impact, the work that I really try to do was to create space so there's more trans people at the table. That has been my mission. And so I have known about that tension since I’ve been in the movement, which is close to, I guess, 30+ years. So even when I was not part of the ‘T’, I knew how the ‘T’ was treated within the community. And that was partly, probably why, when I was telling you that I wanted to dig my heels in and not be that, I was like, “Uh, oh,” even within the LGBT.” The first activist thing I did, I went to use the men’s bathroom right – it was 2002, my best friend had died unexpectedly of a brain aneurysm – that night I wanted to go to the gay bar. And I said, “You know what, life is short. My friend just died. I’m going to finally use the men’s bathroom.” And I walked in there and they called the police on me. It was a lesbian owned bar. This was my community of ten years. And I was like, “What do you mean?” They looked at me. They looked down at my chest. They ID’d me. And I had an F and they kicked me out and they had called the police. It was horrible. I was so deeply betrayed. So I had already had the shock of that experience. And I actually filed with the Human Rights Commission and we had a hearing. This was in North Hampton Massachusetts at the time where there was not a gender identity law yet. And we had a hearing. And I remember the lesbians who owned the bar showed up and they said, “We don’t have to do anything for those people.” And I was like, “Wait? Am I those people?” I’m just saying that I have personal experiences, I have seen politically. I have witnessed it within the LGBT organizations, how the ‘T’ is marginalized. So it’s like this is not news to me. It’s kind of insider baseball, I guess, for a lot of community members. But now, with the larger world being anti-trans, that kind of betrayal is something I’ve been deeply familiar with. And as for what to do about it, what I’ve done about it in the last year has been creating trans-led spaces, creating the Trans Legal Professionals Networking Program, working with the national Trans Bar Association. For us, by us, we need to be in our own spaces doing it ourselves. So that, for me from where I’m sitting, has been an antidote to that kind of deep betrayal is that it’s made me want to empower our leadership more. I’m doing a leadership development program, in person, at a law firm in New York City on the International Trans Day of Visibility in March specifically to give trans community members tools to lead. So that’s what I’m doing about the betrayal. But it’s painful. And I’m curious what other people are experiencing around that. But, like they say, “They’re coming for us now. They’re coming for you next.” But it’s very frustrating.

SARA: It is. It’s hard to wrap your brain around that story in 2002 and then where we’ve kind of made some gains and then we’re kind of back there again.

DRU: Yeah.

SARA: So as a trans rights litigator, as someone who’s really just centered themselves in that space of trans rights in the legal sphere in particular, what do you wish more people understood about how anti-trans laws actually impact the daily life of trans folks?

DRU: Well, so part of my journey was that I did 11 years of trans rights litigation. I was the first staff attorney at TLDEF, Transgender Legal Defense. And then I was at Lambda for a decade. The last six years, I moved over to doing Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion work, which is also now targeted, because I saw that it really matters who’s at the table. I wanted to make space for more trans lawyers doing the work. So I will first say that one principle that’s really important is that – I said before was biased – but Ayanna Presley from Massachusetts Congresswoman, she says, “Those closest to the pain need to be closest to the power.” It’s very important for trans people to be speaking for ourselves. And so I’m just doing a lot of work around that. But in terms of the laws and litigation, sometimes I just feel like – I did this as well – but in the beginning of my career I was like, “This is where it’s at. We just need to win cases and pass laws and then we’ll be safe.” And as we know, that is not always the most protective thing we can do. So I think it’s really important we’re in a defensive posture now where we are defending and trying to fight to protect some of the gains that we had over the years. But it’s become very politicized. So you can’t put all of that energy into what the Skrmetti Decision’s going to say or that type of thing. You can’t let the courts – which are just a group of people and it’s political – you can’t let the courts determine how you are living your life. So it’s ironic for me, this is literally what I was like, litigator and doing all the stuff. But what I’ve learned is that’s not where it’s at. You have to have your own power from your decision that you actually inherently belong here and you get to exist and you get to be happy. And you don’t need permission from a law to continue to live your life. We did it before we had any laws, and we can do it now. So I think the level of fear and terror people are having right now, “What about the law? And what about these policies and stuff?” They could issue Executive Orders day after day, but think about it. We’re not going anywhere. And I really do think, getting back to what you said about people pushing off trans people as this small niche or whatever, but the issues that impact us, impact everybody. It’s about gender. So if you’re not connecting it and you’re thinking, “Oh, that’s just a small group.” – Williams Institute 2.8 million people in the US – No, these issues impact every single one of us. And we’re just being used as political fodder right now. And picking on the – I guess we’re easy targets.

SARA: What you just said about “You get to be here, deserve to be here, you don’t need a law to tell you,” is a beautiful answer to the question I was going to ask, but i was like, “Dru just answered it. But I’ll ask it anyway so you can hear.” Because I was going to ask, what does winning look like to you, not just legally, but in terms of human dignity and collective liberation? And I think that answer sums it right up.

DRU: Yeah. I would say, winning for me, I think a lot about winning and losing and I don’t agree with those strategies. I mean, ironically, you’re trained as a lawyer to think in those frameworks. But winning to me would be a trans kid accepting themselves and realizing that they have everything they need inside of themselves. Or that parent feeling that trust of their kid and realizing that quiet moment sometimes at home where they’re like, “Actually, everything’s okay.” That, for me, is a win when trans joy, when you see a trans person enjoying themselves or talking about their special interest or something. Those are the moments that it’s like, “Oh my gosh, I love that.” This is a victory that they weren’t thinking that moment that there’s something wrong, that they’re different, that they’re just being themselves. That’s what we all want. That’s what we all deserve. And that’s the work. And is the world’s saying – whatever the world’s saying, it’s about carving out your own resistance and your own resilience in your personal and political life. I think that’s what it is. So those are the victories that I’m looking for. And I’m no longer thinking of the community. I’m somebody in the community. I’m thinking about what do I need right now? It’s those little steps of wellness that are the victories that we can all do right now, knowing that we’re all in this together.

SARA: Beautiful answer. And I love that. And I also want to say and affirm, Dru, we’ve had a few trans lawyers on the podcast and queer lawyers talking about all the legal ins and outs of trans rights. And I just want to say, you all do a lot of behind the scenes work. It doesn’t always get out front. In my world and the folks who are kind of living the day to day and trying to push back and just kind of wondering what’s happening and who’s doing what and feeling powerless. I love that I have a vantage point, and many of us get this vantage point of seeing lawyers, trans lawyers, queer lawyers, out there fighting in the Supreme Court, in our local State Courts, in our State Supreme Courts. And it doesn’t get enough attention. And so that is a significant part of the fight and I’m grateful for all of the lawyers out there who do that. So thank you.

DRU: Thank you. That’s beautiful. I mean, I really do feel like it was really significant to see the first trans person argue before the Supreme Court. You know, Chase and I came up around the same time. And I’ll just say it was really inappropriate and horrible to watch cis people argue on behalf of us when we exist and we are the experts on or in our own lives. We’re the experts. And so it was so powerful when that happened. And I want more of that. I just listened to the most recent oral argument. And it’s still – what other community has somebody from not that community arguing for them before the Supreme Court? So we really need to see that as unacceptable and expect, not just an anomaly of, oh good, we got that box checked. No. Every trans case should be argued by trans attorneys. So my investment has been to support this legal community to say, these are the people that we need to support, check in on, what do you need? How can I help you? What do you want to do with your career? How can I support you? Sponsoring them, so that they can get to be in those positions. They’re not getting the mentorship and sponsorship they should in organizations. I would do training at law firms and it would be like the one or two exceptions in the organization. And they’re all struggling because they’re not structurally set up to support us yet. So there’s just so much. That’s why I keep getting back to the workplace, to the DEI work, because it is like we need to be able to lead the work. It’s exciting that you have people, it’s not just like three of us anymore. But I also am looking at how are trans lawyers doing. And also what is the role of lawyers in the movement? Using the law to support everyone else out there. So whatever role you have is important. But lawyers are just human beings and we all have a really important role.

SARA: Thanks for naming that and reminding us of that. I appreciate it. We’ve talked about hard things and struggle and the challenges of survival in this particular political moment and the intensity of it in the midst of all that is unfolding around us. And I think I just also want to name the attacks on our immigrant community are overwhelming. So, on top of the attacks on our trans community is so much happening, so many attacks that people are feeling a little hopeless. So where are you finding hope?

DRU: Well, yes. I mean, I feel like it’s been really inspiring to meet the parents of trans kids recently. I think it’s exciting for me to be having this conversation with you and learning about the work that you all are doing because I’m now doing consulting but also coaching work. And a lot of my clients are parents of trans kids. And it gives me so much hope to hear about what’s going on in their lives. Yes, the backdrop is scary and people, if they have resources, are moving to different parts of the country. I know people who are moving out of the country. But what gives me hope is just knowing that we’re growing in support. And I think it’s just been amazing to interact with some young trans and nonbinary kids and looking at my future in so much of the stuff – the stuff I talked about in that chapter and the stuff that happened to me – hopefully a lot of that actually is not going to happen in the same way to these kids. So I just feel so inspired by young people and I learn so much from them. And all of that struggle has been so worth it to get to meet a young person who is informing and helping me understand gender better and helping me accept myself better. So I’m just so grateful to all the loving parents who are on the journey with their kids and they are our future.

SARA: Thank you. That’s beautiful. If you could offer one truth, one piece of wisdom, to trans and nonbinary people of any age who might be struggling to survive this moment, what would it be?

DRU: It’s not your fault. There’s nothing wrong with you.

SARA: Thank you. I can’t believe the time has flown by. I have so many more questions. But before I let you go, we do have some final questions that we like to ask all of our guests. The first question has to do with the Mama Dragons name. So Mama Dragons came about out of a sense of fierceness and fierce protection for our kids. And so we like to ask our guests, in addition to all that we’ve talked about together in this hour, what is it you are fierce about?

DRU: I am fierce about the fact that trans people belong here.

SARA: Full stop. The final question is, Dru, is what is bringing you joy? Where do you find joy? And we name that in these times, part of that resilience, part of that survival is finding joy in all the places we can. So where are you finding it?

DRU: I am finding joy in so many things that are smaller. But some is about travel. I find joy in – I have a Jeep, and I just love driving around in my Jeep. I am Peloton-obsessed, and so I find joy with particular instructors who make me cry on the bike and scream and laugh. And it's amazing. So I find little moments of joy here and there. And my partner and I just got a house bunny. And he is about 12 pounds. And he's a French lop with huge ears. And I find a lot of joy in taking care of our bunny.

SARA: What is your bunny's name?

DRU: Theo.

SARA: Oh, that's adorable. How sweet! I love that. And shout out to all the great Peloton instructors out there! Thank you so much for this time and for this conversation. And more importantly, thank you for all the work that you are doing to just support the trans community, to be out front and be authentic, and remind people of the beauty of who they are.

DRU: Thank you. Thank you for the work you do. This is amazing

SARA: Thank you so much for joining us here In the Den. Did you know that Mama Dragons offers an eLearning program called Parachute? This is an interactive learning platform where you can learn more about how to affirm, support, and celebrate the LGBTQ+ people in your life. Learn more at Mamadragons.org/parachute or find the link in the episode show notes under links.

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