Raising Trans Kids: What to Expect When You Weren’t Expecting This

The moment your child says something that changes the story you thought you were living, time can seem to split in two. There’s the before — the assumptions, expectations, and dreams you carefully built — and then there’s the after, where love, fear, confusion, grief, joy, protectiveness, and possibility all arrive at once. For many parents of trans kids, that moment can feel overwhelming, not because they love their child any less, but because they suddenly realize they’re stepping into unfamiliar territory without a map. Today, we’re joined by Rebecca Minor, therapist, educator, coach, and author of the new book Raising Trans Kids: What to Expect When You Weren’t Expecting This. Sara and Rebecca talk about the emotional journey many parents experience when their child comes out as trans, the myths and misinformation families are navigating right now, and how parents can move from panic and uncertainty toward connection, confidence, and advocacy.

Special Guest: Rebecca Minor

Rebecca Minor, LICSW (she/they), is an internationally recognized gender specialist, therapist, educator, and author of the book Raising Trans Kids: What to Expect When You Weren’t Expecting This (Row House, Sept 2025). As a gender specialist, Rebecca partners with trans and gender nonconforming youth through their journey of becoming and serves as a guide to their parents in affirming it. With over 10,000 hours of experience working with trans and gender-expansive youth and their families, she’s helped parents move beyond fear and uncertainty to become confident, affirming advocates for their children. She is the founder of Prism Therapy Collective and serves as adjunct faculty at Boston University’s School of Social Work. Rebecca has been featured in The New York Times, Parents, The Bump, Health Magazine, Them, and The Trevor Project docuseries. 

Links from the Show: 

• Rebecca’s website
• Buy Rebecca’s Book Raising Trans Kids
• Rebecca’s Blog 
• Join Mama Dragons today

In the Den is made possible by generous donors like you. Help us continue to deliver quality content by becoming a donor today at www.mamadragons.org. 

Transcript

SARA: Hi everyone. Welcome to In the Den with Mama Dragons, a podcast and community to support, educate, and empower parents on the journey of raising happy and healthy LGBTQ+ humans. I’m your host, Sara LaWall. I’m a Mama Dragon myself and an advocate for our queer community. And I’m so glad to be part of this wild and wonderful parenting journey with all of you. Thanks for joining us. We’re so glad you’re here. 

SARA: So many of us Mama Dragons, we remember that moment our child came out and said things that perhaps changed the whole story that we thought we were living. In those moments, it feels like time can just kind of split in two. There's the before with assumptions and expectations, and there's the after with love and maybe confusion and some grief and joy and possibility. And all of it arrives at once, and the moment can be really overwhelming. Not because we love our child any less, but because they realize, we realize that we are stepping into unfamiliar territory without a map. Today, our guest is here because she has written a book that speaks to that very experience. We're joined by Rebecca Minor, therapist, educator, coach, and author of the book Raising Trans Kids, What to Expect When You Weren't Expecting This. Rebecca's work reaches far beyond the pages of her book. She also offers trainings, workshops, coaching, and helps parents and schools and communities and allies navigate all of these complex and complicated conversations around gender identity to invite more compassion and confidence and care. In this conversation, we're going to talk about the emotional journey that many of us have experienced or are in the midst of experiencing when our child comes out, the misinformation that continues to plague us in this particular political climate, and explore some of the bigger conversations that are happening around gender and language and why our curiosity matters, and how we can create spaces where our queer, trans, and non-binary people can actually feel seen and safe and celebrated. Rebecca, thanks so much for being with us. Welcome to In the Den.

REBECCA: Thank you so much, I'm thrilled to be here.

SARA: I want to start with your story. I'm curious how you found your way into this work and what made you to decide to write that particular book for parents of trans kids.

REBECCA: Well, that is a bit of a winding road but to put it succinctly, it started probably in my early life. I'm a third-generation social worker. And I grew up in very queer spaces, being a theater kid. And so I spent a lot of time in community before recognizing my own identities and reasons for wanting to be there. And when I went to college, I took a seminar, a freshman writing course called Queer and Pleasant Danger. And in that course – I know – in that course we read, Kate Bornstein's memoir. And it was the first time I'd been exposed to a trans narrative that was beyond the kind of sensationalized ones you'd see on TV and in movies. And that's really what kicked things off for me. And then, you know, fast forward, I pieced together my education because at the time, there was no specific coursework on how to become a gender specialist.  I studied psychology and queer theory and kind of mash things together, got my master's, started my own practice. And over time realized that as much as I could help young people, it was only as helpful as it would be when they then got home to parents and caregivers who had a lot of questions, and maybe weren't equipped to support them in the way that they needed to, not because they didn't love them, but because they didn't have the education. And so that's really what led me to write the book.

SARA: Wow, so much of that story is so interesting. Really quickly, though, for our folks who are listening who might not be familiar, can you share a little bit about who Kate Bornstein is? 

REBECCA: Yes.

SARA: A very pivotal person in the trans history.

REBECCA: Yes, so Kate Bornstein, um, is actually a friend of my professor's. We were lucky enough to meet her. She came to school. But she, at the time I think, described herself as an author and performance artist. And has now written multiple books, including one fairly recently. But at the time, that was really her life story. And it was a bold title and one that kind of fixed with you. So when I got the reading list, I was like, “Are we even allowed to say things like that??  And so, yeah, I think Kate is known for being bold and brave and leading the way in a lot of ways.

SARA: Yeah, one of the early pioneers in academics to really push the envelope around gender and identity and expression and language and how exciting that you got to learn from her. And then I'm also curious, you mentioned, at the time, there wasn't an academic path yet for gender identity. How did you know that's what you wanted to study and explore and really dive into?

REBECCA: So, I knew I wanted to be a therapist, if I didn't become famous in musical theater, which I eventually gave up on. I knew that I wanted to be a therapist, and likely work with teens. It was then through reading Kate's story, and continued experiences clinically where I was like, people deserve to live their truth no matter what that looks like, and I want to be able to help them get there. That's really what led me in that direction. For a while my focus was around trauma and the body which, as you can imagine, there's a lot of overlap. Then two, I was working in an eating disorder facility as my first job out of college. And again, I had people there who – we call them patients on that setting –who when actually we finally addressed some of the gender dysphoria and things they were experiencing on that front. some of their eating disorder symptoms started to slip away. And it really affirmed for me that these things are connected and what's possible when we listen to people when they tell us who they are and believe them.

SARA: That's amazing. One thing you said in your intro that really captured my attention and that I appreciate about your book is your ability to make space for parents and to understand, to allow for the real emotions that might come with a trans child's coming out or even just a queer child's coming out, especially for parents who have never been in that world without shaming them. But it was really interesting to hear you mention how you were starting to notice how the home life, parents and caregivers could be a barrier to a person's full experience for themselves and their own identity. Can you talk a little bit about kind of that swirl of things, what it looks like for parents to explore those emotions and really think about the stages of their journey with their kids, and why that balance is so important.

REBECCA: Sure, I think it can be really messy. And that messiness wasn't captured in a lot of the books and resources that were out there. And that's part of the reason why I wanted to create this resource, was to name that it's okay for you to not want this. And you still have to show up for your kid. Right? It's okay for you to have a whole host of feelings about this, and have it be bringing up all kinds of things for you and how we're going to hold that and still make sure that your child has the support that they need. So I think, to more specifically answer your question, it's a complicated thing I think, as a parent or caregiver to admit that you don't have all the answers. And I think it's a necessary, one. But especially when it comes to gender and identities, really, when it comes to gender and sexuality, especially, I find that parents have a hard time not knowing everything. And so when your kid tells you, “I'm this thing,” and it's a thing that you don't understand, not only do you feel like you don't understand your kid, and maybe you're losing them or they're slipping from your grasp. But you also may experience some sense of shame, for not understanding more. And that combination, I think, is often a painful one. And it doesn't have to be if people are armed with the right resources. And so, I think really being able to say, like,” I hear you, and I'm going to learn more about that,” is actually an okay thing. I feel like I've lost the thread on what you originally asked me.

SARA: No, I think that was great. I was just curious about the whole idea of how do parents work through their own stuff. But also recognizing how important that is, because without that work for parents, they can be a barrier to their child's flourishing.

REBECCA: Big time.

SARA: And at any age, really, kids of any age, and who are navigating that . . . 

REBECCA: Yes.

SARA: . . . their own coming out. What are some of the tools that you offer parents for how to navigate that space of being present but also working through their own stuff without it getting too, without letting their own stuff take over?

REBECCA: I think that’s a great question. 

SARA: That's hard as a parent sometimes.

REBECCA: And that's really where I advocate so much for having your own supports. Right, so the work that I do with parents and parent coaching, I think, is such an important container to be able to have that protected time to say like, “Yes, when you're here, you can say all the things. You are not going to offend me. You're not going to hurt my feelings. I may not always agree with you, or I may push back a little bit to challenge some of the ideas or assumptions that you have. But I'm going to do so in a way that still has care.” And I think, really make space for the fact that, yes, you can be experiencing what you may articulate as a grief process. And that's not something that your child should or needs to be exposed to. And so how we make space for that is sometimes in the session itself. It could be making sure you have a friend or someone in your life who you can vent to about this. Maybe get a journal. There are a multitude of ways that you can express this, because the idea is not to say, like, you're not allowed to feel that or you shouldn't feel that. We know you have to feel it to heal it. So how you go about feeling it and processing it is, there's a multitude of ways, but I think making sure that that work is separate from your kid is essential.

SARA: That's really helpful. And in your work with trans kids and folks, what do you hear that kids most wish the adults in their lives understood?

REBECCA: I mean, I think the number one thing is that they wish they believed them when they told them the first time. And the second thing, I think, is how hard it is when it's taken you so long to gather the courage to tell the grown-ups in your life who you are, and that you are met with a sense that that has hurt or saddened them. And it's not uncommon for parents or caregivers to say, you know, “I feel like I'm losing my son, or I'm losing my daughter. I need time, I need you to be patient with me.”  And while patients and grace and all of that is warranted, I think parents are not always processing in that moment what it's taken for the young person to get to that point to come to you and say, “I figured it out! This is who I am.” And to have that, like, moment that could potentially be joyous, then feel squashed and how hard that is, while still holding the reality that parents are, of course, going to have their own reaction and feelings and fear, and often also a sense that this came out of nowhere. And so I think sometimes feeling completely sidelined by this then results in a response that is not ideal and maybe not people's best moments. Again, not because they don't love their kid or they don't support them, but because they didn't see this coming.

SARA: That is totally fair. And I'm thinking, as a parent myself, I know one of the really difficult bits of parenting, of anyone parenting, is managing and even the work of letting go of your own expectations for how this was gonna go. I think about my own child, and my two children being so very different, and one of them just being so very different than how I showed up in the world in terms of school and motivation and ambition and all of that stuff. And it was just so wild to not have any understanding, because it was so completely different from how I approached the world. And it continues to take so much unlearning. Talk about that a little bit in terms of what, what's the best advice for parents in terms of how we work with and let go of those expectations that maybe we don't even realize we're carrying, because I think some of us more progressive parents might like to think I don't have any expectations, I just want my kids to be happy.

REBECCA: Absolutely, and I cannot tell you the number of parents that have been in tears in my office saying things like, “I'm liberal, or, like, I went to Wesleyan. Why do I care?” And you can read all the queer theory. You can identify as a feminist. You can feel all these things. And then when your own kid transitions, it can still bring some stuff up. So I think some of it is recognizing that so much of what you're attached to is a story.  Right, that it's not actually that you're losing your child, it's not actually that your child isn't who you thought they were, but that they're not becoming the person you imagined they would be. And those are two different things. 

SARA: What kind of work do we parents need to do to try to meet our kids where they're at? How do we do that?

REBECCA: It's a big question. And I think some of it is recognizing where you end and they begin because so often children become an extension of ourselves. And so we see their academics as our academics. We see their gender as our gender. We see – Right – what we think we would do through them and that what they do is therefore a reflection of us.  And so I think seeing yourself as separate –  while connected in a loving way – but as separate from your child, I think is one of the ways to start to create a little bit of space there to then be able to truly meet them as they are, rather than be so bumped up against each other that you can't quite tell who's who. And so I think that's part of it. And I think also continuing to practice the, I think, difficult work of letting go of all of the expectations that you have, whether you meant to or not. Right? Like, no matter how affirming and supportive and all the things you are, like, you may still want certain things for your kid, and that is human. And what does it look like to let some of that go and embrace the fact that we cannot control the outcome. We can help guide. But ultimately, your kid is their own person.

SARA: Yeah. Yeah, you know, there's a lot of, I think particularly in this moment, conversations, the dialogue around gender and identity is really fraught and can feel really overwhelming. And I think, for some parents, that can feel like – that can add to the fear of making a mistake, of messing up.

REBECCA: Mm-hmm.

SARA: How do you talk parents through that fear and how to repair when they know or when their kid has told them they've made a mistake and messed up?

REBECCA: Yeah, so, I mean, first things first, anytime I give a training or I work with families I always say, “It is not a matter of if, but when.” You are going to make a mistake. You are going to say something that your kid is like, wow, that was not cool. Or, they won't tell you it wasn't cool, but they'll go to their room and act weird for the next 7 days, and you'll have to wonder what wasn't cool. Or they'll text you and tell you what it was, even though they're in the other room. And these are the moments. I think more than anything, being willing to admit when you were wrong. is actually incredibly reparative, regardless of what kind of parenting like, not just around gender, but just as a parent. And I think especially when it comes to this subject, it can be quite tender. And so if you have made a misstep, I think acknowledging it, taking accountability for it, and not belaboring it for too long. I think one of the biggest mistakes is then like, the over-apologizing or continuing to make it such a thing to the point where then your kid or whoever is involved then has to do the emotional labor of comforting you, even though you were the one that made the error.

SARA: Yeah, yeah, that's really good. That's really helpful to just be able to try to find that place of repair and then keep going.

REBECCA: Yes. Yeah, because otherwise it's like, “Mo-m, Stop.”

SARA: Easy for us to go on and on sometimes when we've made a mistake. I know that in your work, you do a lot of work around ally-ship in schools and organizations. And I'm curious to hear you reflect on –  because I think this is a question that continues to come up in this moment – the difference between, and I almost hesitate to use this word performative allyship and really active support. And I want to just clarify my hesitation because sometimes allyship starts with those things that we might call performative. So I don't want to say that that's not necessarily a bad thing or the wrong way. That may be the doorway.

REBECCA: Yes. I appreciate you naming the nuance to that, because I do think sometimes the things that could fall under the category of performative, could also be the beginning of someone dipping their toes into much more active and radical allyship.

SARA: Yeah, because I also think the conversation is, we get a little finger waggy about performative allyship. And then that's a barrier for people to feel like they can't do anything because they don't know where to start or what to do and don't want to be shamed for whatever they choose.

REBECCA: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think a lot of harm has been done. And that doesn't mean that we want to be so finger-waggy, that then people don't feel like it's okay to even try. So I think, when we think about performative allyship, I think more about, like, companies that then do their rainbow washing, where they put their pride flag up just for Pride. And then the rest of the year, they do nothing to help the LGBTQ plus community, or they don't actually care. Or they have the rainbow up, but they treat their employees terribly, or, you know, like, they're not actually walking the walk. And when I think of active allyship, I think more about people who have some skin in the game, in the sense that they're putting themselves out there in ways that may be a little bit beyond their comfort zone, even. But they're doing it because they know that that is something that's needed, and it's something that they maybe have some privilege and power that other folks don't have, and they can utilize it effectively. So if you know you have a position at work where you can go to the HR department and say, “Hey, I noticed that we don't have a neutral restroom. Like, what's up with that?”  That's a thing that you can do without risking your job, whereas the trans person you work with might not feel safe asking about why there isn't a bathroom available for them. That's just one example, but I think…

SARA: A great example.

REBECCA: . . . really putting yourself out there. And one of the things that I think about a lot when people ask, it's like a common question is, “What what's your number one allyship tip?” And what I usually say, and it can be a little bit startling at first, is like, “Get clear on what you're willing to lose.” And what I mean by that is, are you willing to have the hard conversation with your uncle? Or are you willing to put your job on the line? To what extent are you willing to go speak up at a PTA meeting, even if it means other moms might look at you funny or what they'll think about you and your family? Are you willing to say something to church leadership? What are you willing to do to really kind of push the envelope?

SARA: That is a really great question to start with, and I think one that often we don't, folks don't necessarily consider and might be helpful so that they can really make some active choices.

REBECCA: Because then you know where the line is, right? And you don't have to go all the way up to the line. You really don't. But you know where your limits are that way.

SARA: Yeah. When you're doing this kind of work, what are some of the most common misconceptions that you hear that people have, particularly about trans inclusion?

REBECCA: About trans inclusion, I think specifically would be that it's harmful to non-trans people, which it just simply isn't. And I think more broadly, one of the biggest misconceptions is that it's medically dangerous.

SARA: Yeah. I think that’s. . . 

REBECCA: And I don't know if you wanted to go there yet, so I was sitting back on that question.

SARA: You can go there, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of this, I mean, I know we talk about a lot about that on the show because there's a number of us that live in very conservative states who sort of just live with that constant rhetoric that there is something harmful about the medical transition support and healthcare for trans people.

REBECCA: Yes.

SARA: Particularly young people.

REBECCA: Yes. Yeah. Which I guess, you know, if you zoom out, the even the biggest misconception is that kids are too young to know.

SARA: Yeah Yeah. And talk about how you push back against that in your work, what you've learned from your clinical work.

REBECCA: I mean, I feel like I have such privilege in my experience in terms of being able to have witnessed so many young people that I feel with such certainty that they know who they are. Once you've spent time with a 4-year-old, who is like, “No, I'm a girl.” And really means it. You don't wonder in the same way if kids are too young to know. And I mean scientifically, like research-wise, we know that kids are able to identify their gender and that all people tend to identify their gender by age 3. That's typically where I start when I push back about something like that is like, “Do you remember when you knew your gender?” And most people will be like, ”No, um, you know, I don't know, maybe I was however old,” And I'm like, “Okay, well, were you sure?” And usually it really starts to break down this thinking of, like, well, I don't know, people told me I was that it's like, okay. And you just went with it. These kids are actually saying, like, I know this is who I am. . . .

SARA: Yeah.

REBECCA: . . . despite what everyone is telling me.

SARA: Yeah. That's very interesting. You talked in your intro in your early career about  starting with in the world of trauma. And I know you talk a lot about and we hear a lot about trauma informed therapy these days and how important that is. And I've been thinking a lot about the intersection of trauma and trans identity, particularly when there may be families who look at their family life and think “It's great,” right? My kids have all their needs met. It was a healthy family to the degree that, you know, all any of us can be fully healthy. I mean, there's always issues in families, but when a parent may look at their family landscape and say, I don't understand what trauma is and how did my kid have any trauma? And I'm wondering if you can speak to a little bit about how are trans kids –  where trauma comes in when it isn't like capital ‘T’ obvious trauma from some outside force, some accident or sexual assault or something like that.

REBECCA: Yes. So you've already started to name the difference between what we consider, like, big ‘T’ and little ‘T’ trauma. So, big ‘T’ traumas, just like you were saying, where it's this, usually a major event, oftentimes a single event, not always. Whereas little ‘T’ trauma are the kind of persistent things that happen over time that – I had a professor who described little t trauma as, like, droplets of acid on stone where it lands, it rolls off. But over time, there's corrosion that occurs. And that corrosion does make an impact. And so I think parents will often feel like, “I tried to do everything for them. Nothing that terrible happened.” But what we don't always think about are the little ways in which maybe they felt like they weren't really seen, or they weren't accepted by their peers, or they had a teacher who persistently misgendered them. And those experiences are the ones that kind of add up over time. And if you think about the minority stress model, when we think someone who has an identity that is marginalized, simply moving through the world that is not necessarily designed for them. is its own kind of Little ‘T’ trauma.

SARA: And I've been thinking a lot about how, given the antagonism and the hate that's really happening to trans folks these days, that's actually growing that trauma. It's escalating and then it's bigger and bolder than it has ever been before.

REBECCA: Yeah.

SARA: And as a parent, I've also really started to think a lot about just the trauma of trying to come to terms with one's identity. Think about my own trans child before they really decided they were ready to come out. But the challenge, so then the challenge of like, there's this identity that I'm living with that isn't the reality that I am moving through the world with yet. And there is some trauma in kind of that push and pull and wrestling with that and experiencing life in that way that I'm really been puzzling through myself.

REBECCA: Yes. Absolutely. And it impacts them. It impacts the family, too, right? If there was a time when your kid had shared with you, “This is who I really am, but I'm not ready for grandparents to know, or I'm not ready for extended family to know.” And so then when you're on the phone, talking to your sister in whatever city she lives in, you're having to use different name or pronouns, and you're doing this kind of gymnastics, emotionally and cognitively, to respect your child's privacy. But all of that. adds up.

SARA: Yeah, yeah, that's true. Thank you for naming that, because I know there are a lot of parents that are still trying to navigate that back and forth space, and it gets complicated.

REBECCA: Yes.

SARA: It takes a lot of work. How can we encourage people, parents and people, how can we encourage curiosity and learning – and I'm thinking in particular about the ways in which we show up as allies for our own kids and for others – and without centering the comfort of the people who are resistant, right? I think we see a lot of this when anytime there's any kind of level of oppression and change that's required. It's often the people who are the most comfortable or the least aware that are the most resistant.

REBECCA: Yes.

SARA: It's really easy, you see society sometimes tipping over. We're watching it right now, right? Girls in athletics, trans girls in athletics, right? That is more about people's comfort than it is about any of the biology and science and hormones that people like to say it's about.

REBECCA: Yes.

SARA: So how do we help people, how we bring, how do we help people bring people to more curiosity when that's the tension?

REBECCA: That's the great question. And I think it's really the work, is how do we do that? Because shaming people has actually not worked. It is not productive despite the desire to sometimes shame people for some of their beliefs. I think the name of the game is actually creating that curiosity. And the way that I have found that most effective is by inviting people to consider the ways in which the binary of gender has also not always worked for them either.

SARA: Yeah, say more about that.

REBECCA: So when I will give a presentation about the -- the thing that's coming to mind right now is I talked to, my grandparents' assisted living once, and all these people in their 80s and 90s. And I asked them, about their experiences of growing up. And a lot of the women were so angry, and were like, “I wanted to wear pants”. And I wanted to do this and that. And through that conversation, we were able to get to a place of, yeah, so the expectations around gender have not always been fair or reasonable and have made you feel certain ways. And what if the ways that you feel are maybe similar to the way your grandchildren feel? And can we honor them when when they say, this doesn't work for me either. And I think the reality is that most cisgender people have never really called their gender into question, because they never had to. It just is. 

SARA: Right.

REBECCA: People told me I was this, so I went with it. I buy clothes that the signs say are for that group of people. And I may or may not perform femininity or masculinity in these specific ways. Nut I think really inviting people to question that has been what I've found most fruitful over the years.

SARA: That is a beautiful story and a beautiful example. Particularly for the older population, I think that to just really explore like, well, when have I been treated differently and how have I wrestled with that? You just said something really interesting, and I want to hear more about this because we haven’t address this like quite like that on the podcast around performing femininity and masculinity rather than assuming this is what goes with the gender identity that I've been assigned or told or adopted.

REBECCA: Yes. Yeah, I mean…

SARA: What is performing femininity and/or masculinity mean?

REBECCA: Sure. So, really what I'm getting at is the difference between gender identity and gender expression. So gender expression is that outward-facing like, how are we showing people that I'm more feminine or more masculine. And so how one decides to style their hair, whether or not you wear makeup, what accessories you wear, all of the way you take up space, the way you walk. All of those things are parts of that kind of performance of gender. And I think COVID was a really interesting time where people started to not have to do that in the same way because many of us were home and stopped wearing makeup and stopped wearing bras sometimes. And then maybe stopped wearing a tie and things to the office. And people were able to kind of let go of some of those trappings or the things that we'd all been socialized to do and really started to be like, “Why do I do this? Like, do I actually like wearing makeup every day or do I just do that because that's what I thought I had to do, and that's what's, like, appropriate for work?” And so there's been an interesting wave of seeing people come out after the pandemic. 

SARA: So many new drag artists during the pandemic. I'm learning all of these stories of these wonderful drag artists and all of them discovered drag during the lockdown

REBECCA: You know, you got time on your hands. You got time to think. And you've also got time to not be perceived. And I think having some permission to kind of turn inward and not be worried about how that performance is being read, was an interesting experience for a lot of people. But your original question was really more about just what is the performance of  femininity, masculinity, yeah?

SARA: Gender, yeah.

REBECCA: And I think we could talk forever about the ways in which we're socialized to perform gender and also the ways in which that's connected to, like, motherhood and what it means to be a good mom and so many. things.

SARA: It's just interesting to think about it as a performance, and maybe how it changes the way that you understand that you're making choices about – particularly those of us who are cisgender – I think our trans community are very clear about what choices they want to make about how they show up in the world. And the rest of us might just say, this is just me, without really sort of thinking, but actually I am. Every day I’m making choices about how I show up and whether or not that is how that might align with how I understand my gender.

REBECCA: Yes. Yeah, and also to make some sense, I think, of the choices your kids are making, because sometimes, parents will be like, “Wait, we have finally made a name change. We're using he-him pronouns, we've told all the family, and now he wants to wear heels to dinner?” Or, “Now he started wearing eyeliner?” And it's like, well, yeah, because those two things actually aren't the same.

SARA: Yeah. I appreciate you mentioning that. That's such an important piece that we don't talk about enough, I think, particularly as parents, right, is that like, “Wait, wait, wait I thought it was this way.

REBECCA: Yes. Yes.

SARA: And that it doesn't have to be and that and support doesn't necessarily look like, you might think gender transition means 180 degree turn.

REBECCA: Yes.

SARA: Now this is who this person should be, or how they should present, and that's not how it happens.

REBECCA: Yeah, and you might have a kid who's still not interested in brushing her hair. 

SARA: Yeah, my trans daughter who still wants to just wear basketball pants?

REBECCA: Exactly. Yep, and some of that may be a sensory thing.

SARA: Because they're comfortable.

REBECCA: Yes.

SARA: Because they've never, as a child, never wanted to wear jeans, never wanted to wear anything. So yeah, that is really helpful. And then, and your point too about the pandemic helps us then self-reflect, right, about like, yeah, want to wear these things, either because I like the way they feel, or I like the way I feel in them, or the way they make me look in them.

REBECCA: Yeah.

SARA: I want to just do a hard pivot here, because as I was researching, I was noticing that some of your work has included a lot of support around bi-visibility and your Bi+ Invisibility Support Group, particularly for bisexual folks who are in straight relationships or opposite sex relationships. I should say straight perceiving. And we have not really dove into bisexuality much on the podcast. And I think it's a lot. It's pretty misunderstood, both outside and inside queer communities.

REBECCA: Mm-hmm.

SARA: So what are some of the myths and stereotypes that bi folks still face?

REBECCA: Well, certainly, I think the main one is that they should pick a side, that they're doing it for attention, that there's something greedy about it, that infidelity is guaranteed, right?, like you can't trust a bi partner, that they're going to leave you for someone else, because then the pool is double. 

SARA: Oh, yeah, Okay.

REBECCA: Like it’s not just other men are a threat, but other women are a threat too, and God forbid non-binary people also. Then everyone's a threat, potentially, to your relationship which is simply not the case. People still just don't just blanketly feel attraction to everyone. And then I think certainly for people who are in a straight assumed, or presenting relationship, they just often feel like their identity is erased. Or they're not perceived that way at all. And the thing that's been most fascinating about starting that community is just how many people there are. predominantly women, but there are plenty of men, who are in their 40s, 50s, up. who were like, I don't know, I got married young, I had kids, I never really thought about it, and now I'm realizing this about myself.  Or folks who grew up in high-control religion, that's another big portion of people in our community and really navigating these questions. And I think We also have a decent number of people who have trans and queer kids. Who, in then, their kid's identity journey, then starting to really call into question their own identity, and being like, well, yeah, actually, like,

SARA: Sure.

REBECCA: Did I ever question that. Or did I ever consider that? Because when you start to question the binary of gender, too, you start to question so many things we were taught to just believe.

SARA: So many. Yeah, it is a very interesting journey, and I've appreciated the way it has made me really be more aware and question my own choices and socialization and upbringing. And it has really helped me understand gender, my own experience of gender very differently.

REBECCA: Yeah, I feel like – and it's probably annoying to people depending on where they are in their kind of process – but I have always said that I think a young person's transition is actually an opportunity for the whole family to really expand upon so much of what they've been taught and do so much of that unlearning. It's not work everyone wants to do or signed up to do, necessarily, but people do often come out the other side, I think. better for it.

SARA: Yeah, that is really – that's a really great invitation, I think, to families when going through this, like this is an opportunity for you to really think differently and maybe discover things about yourself and your own upbringing. I'm curious about this idea of invisibility, and I notice and hear about it a lot, particularly from bisexual folks, and particularly from those who are in maybe a straight-presenting relationship that looks a particular way, and the invisibility, particularly in the queer community, where they might even feel like, I know I belong, but I'm not sure I would be welcome . . . 

REBECCA: Yes.

SARA: . . . navigating those spaces, because people are judging me based upon their perception of this thing. And it's not obvious. And there's so much to unpack there, because I think the spectrum of queer identity is complicated, and we want it to be neat. We want to be able to look at someone and say where they belong, in what box, in what label.

REBECCA: Absolutely. You know, you hit the nail on the head there. I think that is one of the pain points that I hear about the most. And it's the reason why people have found the community that I've started – at which I didn't really do intentionally, by the way – I thought it was just going to be a one-time pop-up meeting thing. And then it's now turned into a multi-year, we have a Patreon and monthly meetings, and Discord, and it’s kinds of taking on a whole life of its own because I never thought that many people would –  Well, first of all, I didn't know that many people were experiencing it. But then, if you do the math, bisexual people make up more than half of the queer community. And so, it's like, well, right, that makes sense, then, that there would be a large number of people. And then that of those people, there potentially in relationships that are street assumed. And this month being Pride especially, is one of the times that people who reach out the most, saying, you know, I really want to go to the Pride Parade, or I want to go to this event, but I feel like people are going to be like, ”Well, why are you here?”  And a lot of people have had negative experiences in queer spaces, feeling like they've either felt unwelcome, or they've been overtly told that they were not welcome because of their relationship.

SARA: That's really interesting.

REBECCA: Yeah. And then, even more interesting, is when we have trans folks who have transitioned. And then their partner, who they previously moved through the world together as a visibly queer couple, now may be moving through the world, in a way where they're perceived as just your average straight couple. 

SARA: Yes. 

REBECCA: And then it's like, are we still welcome in queer spaces, like, can we still go to the Lesbian Music Festival? Do we want to? How will that work? All of a sudden, all these things shift and change, and there's so much renegotiation of roles and identities. for everyone involved.

SARA: Yes, that is such a good point, too. And how I think the internal, as the conversation has grown around there being this spectrum of gender identity and expression – and those don't always match – it's pushing the boundaries for all of us to have to try to remember and recognize that we just don't know by appearances where people are. 

REBECCA: Yeah. 

SARA: I am curious, though, if in the growth of acceptance in queerness and queer identity –  and I say that one also with some trepidation, because I know it doesn't feel like that now – but when we look at the long growth of history, right, we're still in a different kind of place where people are understanding that spectrum differently . . . 

REBECCA: Yes. Yes.

SARA: . . . And their own identities differently Because I'm just kind of going down this thread of bisexual identity being, you know, 50% of the queer population, and just kind of puzzling through the sense of, like, as society has opened a little bit more allowance, you know, is it something that people are also discovering about themselves that maybe they couldn't before?

REBECCA: Yes.

SARA: And just how interesting it is that there's sort of the two are related in some way.

REBECCA: Yes, and statistically, we're seeing that shift with younger people being more non-binary and also attracted to people of all genders. 

SARA: Yeah.

REBECCA: They are categorically moving away from – well, moving away from all these categories.

SARA: Yeah. How can allies, queer communities do a better job of making bisexual people feel more visible and included? And really everybody who we might perceive to be not part of the community.

REBECCA: I think that's the danger right there, is in assuming. And that's certainly been my experience with holding that space is how many people I also wouldn't have expected have been shared all kinds of identity things with me that I'm like, “Wow, you look like the dad who coaches the soccer team, and I had no idea.” One of the things I do on that page is an anonymous secrets box and boy, are there secrets.  So I think my overarching response to that is just we can't assume. And our best bet is to be welcoming and kind to everyone who wants to be there. Of course, there are always going to be bad actors, and that's unfortunate and sad. But I think we're better off assuming the best of people if we're going to assume at all.

SARA: Yeah, there is something, as you're speaking I'm hearing, there's some larger piece, some meta piece about when we talk specifically about parents and trans kids about believe people when they tell you who they are. And that translates so far beyond just your own kids and your own queer kids.

REBECCA: Yes. Yeah.

SARA: Yeah, that's such an orientation to the whole world, really, I think, that all of us could do a little better to live out

REBECCA: Absolutely.

SARA: For our listeners who may be realizing later in life that they fall somewhere in the queer spectrum, anywhere on that spectrum, what would you want them to hear?

REBECCA: That it's never too late. It's never too late. And I think that honoring the fullness of who they are, is still important regardless of whether or not they intend to change their life in any dramatic way. I think the main barrier I see for folks who are married and have kids and all the things, they're like, “I don't want to hurt anybody. I'm not trying to break up my marriage, I'm not trying to do this or that. I just want to be myself.” And I think to remind people that that is actually possible. And being who you are doesn't always – granted. some relationships cannot sustain, you know, people are going to have their opinions and reactions and things – and I think being known is really, really important and essential to intimacy. 

SARA: That is beautiful. 

REBECCA: And people deserve to feel known.

SARA: Yeah, what a great message. My last question for you, kind of bringing it full circle back to your book for parents listening.

REBECCA: Sure.

SARA: If our parents who are listening could leave this conversation holding on to just one nugget about loving and supporting their LGBTQ+ kids, what would you want it to be?

REBECCA: You don't have to have all the answers. You already know how to love your kid. And you need to just keep doing that.

SARA: That is great. Just keep loving your kid.

REBECCA: Yeah. Maybe you need to learn some vocab. Maybe you need to process some of your own feelings about grief or something. But on the whole, you need to listen to your kid and keep loving them. And that's already something you know how to do.

SARA: Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you, Rebecca. That's a beautiful way to wrap up this conversation 

REBECCA: You’re welcome. 

SARA: And both of those questions, really heartfelt, beautiful advice. Thank you so much for your time. And I want to let our listeners know that we'll have a link to the Mama Dragons Bookshop where they can buy your book.

REBECCA: Wonderful.

SARA: Yeah, and all of the links in our show notes, and so encourage folks to go out and buy that book and grab that book for other friends as they're new in this journey. Thanks so much for the conversation today, it's been great.

REBECCA: Thank you. I really appreciate it.

SARA: Thank you so much for joining us here In the Den. We want to tell you about free, public QPR classes. QPR is question, persuade, refer and it is a powerful suicide prevention training designed to equip you with the skills and confidence to recognize warning signs and respond when someone you love may be in crisis. The training is online, secure, and just two hours long. It’s a small time commitment that can make a life-saving difference. You can register for this training on our website at mamadragons.org. 

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