Church Potluck: A Smorgasbord of Christian Curiosity
Church Potluck serves up thoughtful, friendly, informal conversation at the intersection of Christianity and contemporary culture. Just like a church potluck, we offer variety: a variety of topics, a variety of academic disciplines, and a variety of Christian traditions. Guests are friends and colleagues who are also experts in the fields of sociology, political science, theology, philosophy, divinity, and more.
Church Potluck: A Smorgasbord of Christian Curiosity
Jimmy Carter's Faith-Full Legacy
What was it about Jimmy Carter's legacy that touched so many lives beyond his presidency? Join us on Church Potluck as we share a captivating discussion with Mike, Christy, and newcomer Dr. Steve Terry, who braved the weather to be with us. Together, we explore the personal and political journey of a leader whose influence transcended his time in office. From stories of attending Carter's Sunday school class to heartfelt memories of meeting him in person, we paint a picture of a man whose genuine warmth and unwavering moral integrity left an indelible mark on those who crossed his path.
In this episode, we unravel the complexities of Carter's presidency, reflecting on his steadfast commitment to justice and humility amidst significant challenges like inflation and the Iran hostage crisis. Dr. Terry offers a unique perspective, having experienced Carter's impact before he ascended to the highest office in the land. We ponder the transformation of evangelical Christians' political involvement during Carter's era, and the emergence of the Moral Majority, while celebrating his remarkable interfaith efforts that brought diverse communities together. We also play the game show "Jimmy Carter or Dalai Lama?"
The views expressed on Church Potluck are solely those of the participants and do not represent any organization.
We are recording Even before we get started. I'm going to start off with a couple of thank yous for you all. So, first of all, especially to Mike and Christy, thank you for coming out before the semester has even started getting here, and especially to all three of you, thank you for coming out in this kind of weather. The roads are not nearly as treacherous as Michael Bailey implied in his text message. All three of you, Thank you for coming out in this kind of weather. Oh, you're great. Yeah, the roads are not nearly as treacherous as Michael Bailey implied in his text message.
Speaker 1:West Rome is awful, but just getting out of the cold didn't have. This is something I don't want to be doing. But thank you all for coming out very much, and I want to thank you and welcome everyone to Church Potluck, where we are serving up a smorgasbord of Christian curiosity. I'm your host, Dale McConkie, sociology professor and United Methodist pastor, and you know there are two keys to a good Church Potluck plenty of variety and engaging conversation. And this is exactly what we're trying to do here on Church Potluck. We're sitting down with friends and sharing our ideas on a variety of topics from a variety of academic disciplines and a variety of Christian traditions and today we got a very special episode. I was very excited and in fact everyone agreed to come out before the semester has even begun to get started recording, because we are going to kind of celebrate and reflect on the presidency and the person of Jimmy Carter James Earl Carter, who died December 29th at age 100.
Speaker 1:So lived a very long and certainly very full life. His state funeral is tomorrow, we are recording this on Wednesday and his state funeral is on Thursday, but he's already gone through Layton State. In fact, Chrissy, we'll just get started. Your son actually saw him. Layton State, yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So my son just happens to be in Washington DC right now for a conference and I was trying to get him tickets to tour the Congress but my former student who works there is like, oh no, we can't because Jimmy Carter's lying in state. So I told him that and he and his buddy went last night and yeah, there was a big crowd there as people cycled through and could stand around the conference and yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, kind of a sad opportunity, but a cool opportunity for him to get to do that. Yeah, so, especially with a mom who teaches history, and we'll do that as a way of introduction. Welcome to Christy Snyder, who specializes in American history. So for you, happy New Year. Yeah, good to have you and our other guests. You know them, you'll love them. Michael Bailey, happy New Year. And, michael, you're always an expert, but you are particularly an expert this time, even though you said that you didn't prepare. I'm going to call you out much, but you teach a course on American presidency, so who better to talk to us about?
Speaker 2:I can name about 10 people on this hall, but thank you.
Speaker 1:And we have a third guest who is a first-timer and we have Dr Steve Terry. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Happy New Year, Dr Terry. You were not here at Barry, but you are here, a local guy who taught AP history for quite a number of years. Say a few more things, introduce yourself to the audience.
Speaker 4:I'm originally from the metropolis of Cave Spring or the suburb of Foster's. Mill but I lived in Roswell for 30 years and was the department chair at Roswell High School Social studies. Wonderful place to work, great colleagues, and convinced my wife to move to Rome with me as she got to know Barry, our son played baseball, attended Barry, and so we moved here about 13 years ago. Here I am.
Speaker 1:And, as you said, you're Cave Spring born, so something that the three of us don't have is you kind of experienced Carter even before his presidential years, and so looking forward to hearing about your experiences there too. But the most important thing you left off is you're my golf buddy.
Speaker 4:That's true. That's right. Yeah, and he speaks to me in public. That's right?
Speaker 1:Anyway, great to have you on the podcast, great to be here. Let's talk about Jimmy Carter, his legacy, both the legacy of his presidency, the legacy of his presidency, the legacy of his life and the legacy of his faith, and I just thought we'd start off by each of us sharing a fairly brief reflection to get us started on what you know during this time of you know, reflecting on President Carter, what things come to mind and what have our experiences been?
Speaker 2:Anybody want to jump in, I would say Carter is the first president I remember right.
Speaker 1:Oh, I was going to say the same thing, so let me check that off of my notes here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was born in 1970, but I remember his presidency. I remember in elementary school talking about when he was running for re-election, whether people were going to vote for him or Reagan and what parents thought so yeah, he was definitely the first president of my memory.
Speaker 1:Do you think that was formative in any way?
Speaker 2:I think so. Yeah, and you know, my parents at the time were very much kind of working class Democrats and so they were much more supportive of Carter and his re-election attempt than they were of Ronald Reagan. So I think that played into it too.
Speaker 1:And it's interesting because I guess there's about five years difference between us. In fact I can only say this for seven more days. Dr Terry is the only one in his 60s at the table. You know, us young ones who are 59 and 358 days old are not quite in our 60s yet, but I have the exact same. But it's interesting that you remember kind of the Reagan portion at the end, because I'm five years younger than you. I actually don't remember Watergate. I vaguely remember Nixon resigning, little bits and pieces of the brief Ford administration, but I remember the campaign between Ford and Carter. I remember things about that. The biggest thing I remember actually I didn't mean to jump in here but I will go ahead and jump in One of the things I remembered was the first campaign ad that I saw and they never mentioned, as far as I can recall, that Jimmy Carter was governor. It was just this peanut farmer running for president.
Speaker 1:And I did not understand how in the world this peanut farmer thought he could be president of the United States, and so I was very confused. I remember that and, speaking of campaign, here's a little ditty from. This is going to take us back to another time. This is the very end of one of our Carter's campaign songs. We need Jimmy Carter.
Speaker 4:Why settle for less America?
Speaker 3:Once and for all. Why not the best we need, Jimmy Carter?
Speaker 4:We can't afford to settle for less America. What are your thoughts on this? I'm surprised you didn't get Bob Dylan or Willie Nelson to sing for you.
Speaker 1:The Allman Brothers did perform for William Pinson Is that right, why not the best? All right, Steve Michael. Why don't you jump in? What are your?
Speaker 4:reflections. As I said, I'm the elder statesman here. Carter was the first president I voted for, so 76 was the first election and I was living in Athens at the time. I was an undergrad at Georgia and I was a volunteer at the Athens headquarters for the Carter campaign, mondale campaign. But just being from Georgia was just a blast. I think somebody from the deep south Of course Watergate helped tremendously, yes but I had met him when I was in, I guess, the eighth grade.
Speaker 4:A friend of our family, john Adams, was the rep, local legislature from the area and I was able to be a page at the Capitol. I also did when Lister Maddox was there. But Jimmy Carter was the first time that I'd been as a page. And of course then he was governor of Georgia from a place no one had ever heard of Plains, sumter County. But then to be able to be the first time to vote for him, I will always remember that and I used to tease my students. I had a running average of my wins versus losses my first win and he was my first loss as far as voting. But he's always been a hero for not just being from Georgia but for a lot of other things In fact.
Speaker 1:I've seen your study.
Speaker 4:so tell us what's in your study. I have one of the campaign posters that I'd gotten from the Athens headquarters and I've always kept it. First it was in my classroom, and being in Roswell and have a Democrat up on your board of any sort bastion of Republicanism as it was at the time, I had always got a lot of reaction. But yeah, he's sitting up there right next to Lincoln and MLK on my wall. Good choices.
Speaker 1:You get a little bit of a pass from him being in Georgia, right?
Speaker 4:That's right, absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I do remember him running in 76 against Ford. But I remember in December of 76, being at the airport, kansas City, and picking up my my family, picking up my grandmother from Detroit and she was also kind of a blue-collar Democrat and I remember at that time she expressed such high hope that this was going to be a good era, things were going to turn around, and I remember her saying that she had this good feeling that he would be like another Franklin Roosevelt. She would say Roosevelt and looking back on it, it just shows how, when there's a winner and you haven't entered office, everything is possible. But then, of course, reality creeps in.
Speaker 1:And we'll talk about that reality. But before we talk about the presidency and other things, let me go ahead and share a memory, also fast-forwarding many years. This is probably 2005 or so and, as most people know, one of the many things Jimmy Carter did after he was president was he would teach Sunday school at his church, at Maranatha Baptist Church down in Plains, georgia, and one of the best Father's Day gifts I ever got by far was a weekend down in Americas, georgia, in Plains, georgia. On Saturday we toured Habitat for Humanity the headquarters was down there at the time and had a wonderful time there. I've got a very heartwarming story related to that regarding my son. Maybe not now, but maybe in the leftover section. I'll tell you that part of the story as well too.
Speaker 1:But then Sunday morning we get up and we go listen to the formerly most powerful person in the world talking about how Easter Day was the most pivotal day in all of human history. There was just something about the way he taught it. Some people say that with a lot of power and that would make you scared perhaps, but there was something about the way Carter sang it. It just felt so profound and we loved it, and Ingrid, my wife was in a wheelchair at the time, and so they actually had her wheeled up. It was as you would imagine the sanctuary was packed, she was wheeled up, so we were right beside Carter when he was doing this, and when he left he reached over and just put his hand on Ingrid's head, just like a little blessing, almost, as he walked, and that meant a tremendous amount to her. That was always very special, that he took a moment just to. You know, he didn't even say anything to her.
Speaker 1:And then afterward they allow all the families who've been there to line up and we do line up in a big semicircle outside and the Carters will come and take a picture with you. But they make it very clear they won't have time to talk, they just come and take, you know. So it's a very regimented activity and the Carters are taking a picture with each of the families and about two people, two families before they get to my family, kristen just decides to move from the right-hand side to the left-hand side of our family and it was a little bizarre. And then all of a sudden I realized what she was doing. She had seen that Jimmy was always on the left-hand side. Smart girl. Yeah, not only was she a smart girl, but this was before the time of editing. We get the photo and she gets a copy of it and she cuts the rest of the family out. Oh, no.
Speaker 1:So somewhere she gets a copy of it and she cuts the rest of the family out. So somewhere she has a photo of just her and Jimmy Carter the two saints together.
Speaker 3:That's right, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1:But that's a very special family memory that I have.
Speaker 2:That's very cool.
Speaker 4:Do you remember when you were there, did he open the service with asking if there were missionaries or pastors there that wanted to open in prayer.
Speaker 1:I have forgotten. It is funny how I remember that one line that he said and I have it on VHS tape so I have some editing to do so I can watch it again. But I do hope to very soon be able to watch it again to see what he said. But I have forgotten the details of the sermon.
Speaker 4:My wife and son took me for a birthday present. First time I saw him there and he opened up with that question and there was a missionary family there and the gentleman led the prayer. But there he comes out with bolo tie. He didn't wear a conventional tie, but the one with the little string. And then later we took my mom and my stepfather and were able to listen to him. And, like you said, there's the former president of the United States and he comes in and starts off with what he had done that week and what he had done what he had been to Ghana, and then pulls out the scripture and then he does a Sunday school. But they ask you, please stay for the service, don't just come for the Sunday school class right.
Speaker 1:I don't know how much they emphasize that because we definitely had many people leave. I think they encouraged, but we had. It was definitely smaller after the Sunday school.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but it was just special to realize who. You're sitting there listening to a Sunday school class.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I agree very much and clearly that faith of Jimmy Carter's was incredibly genuine and it influenced everything he did. And let's let one of all three of you are experts Somebody jump in and just talk a little bit about the Carter legacy, whether you want to talk about his presidency in particular, or you know, clearly he's known for being the greatest post president rather than the greatest president. I looked up, you know, in the rankings of presidents. He usually ends up in the middle somewhere all the various polls of scholars, every now and then in the lower third, but usually right in the center somewhere. So someone just get a start. What should we be thinking about? President Carter and his public legacy.
Speaker 4:When he passed and they started talking about it, we started watching little snippets on TV and my wife looked and she said you know, what stuck with me was the fact that when they asked him what his wanted to be his legacy, and he paused and he thought and he says to be remembered as a good father and a good grandfather and that was it. It stopped right there. But I think you and I discussed that whenever I think of him, you think of Micah 6'8" do justice, love kindness and walk humbly, and that, to me, that sums him up in just as concise a way as possible.
Speaker 2:I mean, I guess, whenever I think about Carter, I don't know. So, yeah, I have the ways that I talk about him in class, depending on what the subject is, and then the way I think about him personally, which is, as this, like really honest, good guy who tried to live his faith in his presidency and after his presidency, and it's just really, I think, amazing how he is able to stay kind of that humble servant leader even after being president, where it seems like it just doesn't happen for a lot of other presidents.
Speaker 3:You know, I think if you think about the question was about his presidency in particular. It's hard to. I think there's a kind of a reevaluation of his presidency and it's ticking upward as well, in part because as we get more removed from that circumstance we realize just how context plays such an important part of any president's success or failure. And he came into office on a really narrow, thin margin. He did not have anything like national support before that set of primaries in 1970. He was not very well known, but he was. You played this advertisement right.
Speaker 3:It was the music and it was designed intentionally to reflect his humility and his simplicity and a kind of alternative to the swamp at the time.
Speaker 1:Turn over.
Speaker 3:I will not lie to the American people, and because of Nixon, and I think he was seen as an alternative to the kind of Machiavellian politics of Johnson and Nixon at that time. And even Ford was sort of implicated that, by the way. He came into office and then his pardon, but he didn't have a constituency group that really supported him all that much going into the presidency. He didn't have a really clear political ideology. He didn't have a really clear political ideology and he was just faced with a lot of very difficult problems with inflation and employment and energy. And then you had the Iran crisis. That was very difficult to address and solve in the manner he tried. He was a great moral leader and I think he was just as upright as one could be morally, spiritually. He hardly liked politics though. He thought making deals and bargaining and negotiating and compromising was sort of beneath him. He had a kind of self-righteousness and he stood apart from the political side of it. That did not serve him very well.
Speaker 3:A devout Christian being self-righteous that all the things that caused him to be perseverant and devoted to the causes he believed in also were the same kind of forces that propelled him to see himself above at all.
Speaker 4:He didn't like negotiating.
Speaker 3:He you know both like I mean think about an LBJ who would strike any deal and bargain with anyone, and just that's what he lived and breathed. And Jimmy Carter wanted to present facts to people in a kind of professorial way and was shocked that they didn't kind of buy into it. So I think he was in some sense a very good moral leader. But I think his presidency is going to always be marked or checkered. At best I could say yeah, makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the only place I would disagree with you is when, if you look at his foreign policy, I think he did have like an ideology that he followed there, right, so that we're going to operate more on a moral ground of foreign policy rather than, you know, kind of a Kissinger realistic. You know, let's make sure that we're looking out for, I mean, I think Carter would say we are looking out for America's best interest by acting in a moral, in a more moral way with other nations. But it definitely went against the grain of how things had been done for a long time.
Speaker 3:I agree with you that his foreign policy came from this kind of devotion to human rights, especially in peace, and that stayed with him post-presidency as well, especially in peace, and that stayed with him post-presidency as well, and he put himself in physical danger at times, going to very kind of unstable and dangerous places for the sake of peace. No one doubted his character in that. The question, though, from a political standpoint, is how much of that really had a very high payoff, and you know his trying to bring Panama Canal to the Panamanians I mean, that might have been the right thing to do. It probably was. I don't know what kind of political payoff it had at home, so I think he always offered.
Speaker 1:One of the things I remember as a child was all the bumper stickers that said keep the canal, give away Carter, Right, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I'm not trying to be critical of Carter's decision making, but I think he was so devoted to doing the right thing that he didn't always do what was expedient or popular.
Speaker 1:So this is interesting because you're you are making kind of an argument that I wanted to make, but you're doing it kind of on him, taking the moral high ground, which I was also taken kind of the opposite thing because of his humility. Is that a characteristic that a president can have? And one of the things I've always wondered is we see him as such a great post-president? It's because he didn't have power and he was operating from the bottom right or from a position of a servant, which you can do when you're not president. And that's kind of, is that a necessity of Christian leaders, faith in Christian action, that it has to be done from a position of a servant rather than from a position of power? And so I've always wondered about that, that if Carter tried to do it from a servant as president, whether that works. I mean.
Speaker 3:But wouldn't we all agree that there's some issues that are more obviously heavy in moral content, like civil rights, and there's some that seem a little bit more technocratic, like how do you solve an energy problem? There might be an underlying kind of moral imperative to solve the problem, but I think you know, had Jimmy Carter been in office in the 60s with the same values you know, he may have been a very tremendous president. He would not have got involved in Vietnam. He probably would have, you know, deferred to Congress on some of that legislation, some of the welfare legislation, but he would have taken a lead on civil rights. But he just wasn't faced with those questions and he was dealing with difficult foreign policy questions with the Soviets and Afghanistan and energy crises. And I'm not sure what the Christian perspective is on that, any more than what's the Christian perspective on plumbing or being a chef. I mean, there probably is, but it's not enough.
Speaker 1:After that, you just tell me. After the episode I'll tell you what the Christian perspective is on each of those. Hey, y'all want to play a game show? Yeah, we need Jimmy Carter. Press the wrong button.
Speaker 2:Well, we can always sing this song again. We can take a quick nap.
Speaker 3:Who was the singer in that? Did you say?
Speaker 1:I don't remember.
Speaker 3:I was wondering if it was Billy.
Speaker 1:Carter. No, this is the button that I meant to play. All right Game show. Today's game show Jimmy Carter or Dalai Lama.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love it All right.
Speaker 1:All right, and we're going to, rather than each of you fighting against it, we're going to let this be a collective decision. So you all collude with each other and figure out what the answer here is, and don't look at my notes here for me, please. All right, so here's the first one. Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive. Jimmy Carter or Dalai Lama Right both Well, most of these are.
Speaker 2:You can imagine both saying that's the point of the game Love and compassion.
Speaker 1:Dalai Lama.
Speaker 2:I'm going to go with Dalai Lama too.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'll go with Carter. The two votes carry.
Speaker 3:Oh man, I got my buttons all wrong.
Speaker 1:What's going on with me and my buttons. But happy new year again. But also, you got it right that was the Dalai Lama. Okay, religion is not something we can impose on others. It must come from within. I'm trying to hear that with an accent, jimmy.
Speaker 4:Carter or Dalai Lama, southern accent.
Speaker 2:I'm going to go with Dalai Lama again, but I don't know. Yeah, I'm going to go with Dalai Lama again, but I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm just going to keep going with Carter.
Speaker 1:I'll take.
Speaker 4:Dalai.
Speaker 1:Lama, again, I don't have a no buzzer, but Michael Bailey, that was Carter. So we're good, good. The bond of our common humanity is stronger than the divisiveness of our fears and prejudices. President.
Speaker 3:Carter, the bond of our common no, that's more Clinton, sorry. Focus on the common.
Speaker 1:The bond of our common humanity is stronger than the divisiveness of our fears and prejudices.
Speaker 2:Right now I feel like I'm flipping a coin. Yeah, I'll go with Dalai Lama again, Carter.
Speaker 1:It was Carter. Yeah, that's good, that's good, that's good, that's good, that's good. How about this one? If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion. Sounds like Dalai.
Speaker 3:Lama, I'm going to switch it up, I agree.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Yes, that one was Dalai Lama.
Speaker 4:It's kind of interesting, though, that all these quotes could go to either person. That is really cool. Yep, yep, which is kind of the point I wanted to make here.
Speaker 1:There's more, but I just want to be the last one. I see the work of God in each of us, regardless of our faith and beliefs. That sounds like Carter, that's Carter.
Speaker 2:Yes, I agree, carter. All right, very well done.
Speaker 1:I think, overall, that the collective effort was very good and it is interesting how it's difficult to discern between the two and it does remind us of the moral. You know, many of these were things that he said afterward, but he shared his faith, you know, very, very openly throughout and some people don't realize that he was actually quite the interfaith president, and this is one of the things that has always intrigued me about Carter. He may have been the first, but I know that he was one of the first to have an interfaith prayer service sponsored as president. He was the first. I'd be curious, as a Catholic, whether you're surprised by this. Jimmy Carter was the first person to invite the Pope to the White House.
Speaker 2:Seriously, I am surprised by that.
Speaker 1:Not until 1970. I don't remember which year, but he was the first one Also probably the first president to light a menorah publicly. Someone told a very touching story on CNN yesterday during the funeral about how after the Camp David Accords where you know Carter was negotiating a peace between Egypt and Israel. That like just a few days after that, he attended a Seder with many of his Jewish friends and said he stayed for the entire thing and Seders can be quite long and participate in every way and it just meant much to the person who was relaying this story. And it's interesting to me and I was wondering if this is almost like one of those things. Only Nixon could go to China because he had spoken out so harshly that only someone with these strong Christian convictions could also do these things in an interfaith way, because nobody was going to question his conviction.
Speaker 4:And at the very beginning that was somewhat of a liability. He came across as this people didn't know what the word saved meant, yes, and he came across as such a pure lily white, you know, just perfect guy that they convinced him to do the Playboy interview, which backfired tremendously, yes, and probably drove some away from it.
Speaker 1:Remind people what happened at the Playboy interview.
Speaker 4:Yeah, he was being interviewed Because you read the article right. Just the article and it was a very long video and he felt like it was just a complete waste of time and he finally at the end I guess to make points or get headlines said that he had lusted in his heart for other women, which is a very fundamentalist way of saying he committed adultery.
Speaker 4:His heart, no, absolutely Just in his heart, because of just thoughts. And that became everybody was like what's that mean? And then they were looking at what this seemed to be saying. At the beginning I said I guess he was a Southern Baptist. But he also left the First Baptist Church of Plains because of a racial situation. They wouldn't allow blacks to serve in the church.
Speaker 1:And then later not late in his life, but later in his life he actually left the Southern Baptist Convention altogether over the issue of women's ordination.
Speaker 4:That's right. And so Maranatha, I guess, is an independent or associated with some other group, but he you're talking about earlier that he didn't really have a constituency, he didn't have a following, but he received 95% of the African-American vote which he had never really taken an overt stand in the civil rights movement.
Speaker 4:But two things that always came to mind was when his father died and he left the Navy, came back to run the Carter Warehouse, pino Warehouse. There was a movement then because of Brown v Board for segregation and so forth in schools and there was a group called the White Citizen Council. That were the folks that didn't wear sheets during the day but probably did at night and they came to him in the warehouse and handed him an application to join the White Citizen Council because he was a leader of the community.
Speaker 4:And he took the application. The story goes and the last thing the guy heard was him flushing it down the toilet in the office. And he made it very clear when he chose Andrew Young to be the first African-American to be the ambassador to the UN. In fact, when he went to Andrew Young, he says you should get somebody like Barbara Jordan from Texas or whatever. He says no, and he says why me? He says you knew Dr King personally, so that's who you're going to. You know.
Speaker 4:And he had Daddy King, mlk's senior lead, the invocation at the Democratic Convention in 76. And I remember watching as a kid, a young man, and there and it was in New York, and there were these sea of delegates and Daddy King gets up and you know most people are thinking head bowed. Daddy King looks up in this loud, thunderous voice, oh God. And he started talking to God in a prayer and you could just see all these heads popping up like what's this? And President Carter, president-elect, was just there, that famous grin, that famous smile on his face. So he paid homage to the fact that he had gotten 95%, which was a dealmaker, because you were referring to how close it was.
Speaker 4:It was so close like two or three million votes across the whole country, and they were very loyal. The blacks were to him, and so he reciprocated in ways.
Speaker 3:I think at that convention Coretta King and Jesse Jackson and others joined. I think they did. I think they did yes.
Speaker 4:Because he did not come out during his early years as either a senator or governor when he was running. No, right.
Speaker 4:But you're talking about. He was humble and he didn't like to make deals, but at points he would work the plan, work the system. Because when he ran in 70, I think it was for governor he didn't really say much about civil rights, so he was kind of hedging his bets with the good old boy system in Georgia. But then, on the steps in his inaugural address, that famous line the time of racial discrimination in Georgia is over, and you could feel the eyes pop up because behind him it's all white. Ben Fortson, in fact, is sitting in his wheelchair, secretary of State, and you can see they're like oh, so he knew how to play the system at the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you mentioned how sometimes, when you use words like saved and born again was one of the key terms.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 1:The mainstream media sometimes did not know how to deal. These were not common terms.
Speaker 4:Not a clue.
Speaker 1:People weren't familiar with this and I encourage our listeners and all of you to go on YouTube and search, and I wish I remembered the name of the very famous broadcaster. But there is a news report saying they're called evangelicals. Jimmy Carter claims to be one and we found out that this is not a rare thing and it was like they were interviewing aliens, right. And the news report was just like hey, we just found this whole new group that we never knew about.
Speaker 4:It was because it was northern establishment kind of media, all things southern, became the thing at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I thought that was very interesting. And here's one of the provocative points that I want to bring up, and I actually shared this with Dr Terry on the golf course. But I think you can make a case that Jimmy Carter is responsible for the rise of the religious right in the United States.
Speaker 4:I hadn't thought of that until you explained that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my first response is no. But yeah explain your theory here.
Speaker 1:Before Carter, conservative Christians, evangelicals, were largely isolationists. They were largely politics is something that's worldly, we don't get involved, that's something that we just leave and we focus on heaven, and so they were not particularly involved. Carter's presidency kind of legitimized, you know, christians in politics and they came out and supported Carter but quickly became disenchanted with his policies that he. You know some of the things. Carter was in support of the ERA and had the National Conference for Women and were very disappointed in some of the policies and points that were being made there. Carter was personally opposed to abortion but did not think that the government should get involved.
Speaker 1:There are many things about policy and Carter's faith that he thought that Baptist version of separation of church and state and so the Christians who had said, hey, we want to get our Christian views, what about God? And very quickly turned over to the moralal Majority and Jerry Falwell's organization and you can see where the Republican Party quickly rallied, this group that was kind of a new voting bloc and very effectively brought them over to the other side. This is where you see the Southern shift after the Carter years. And so even though Carter brings Christians into the voting booths, he doesn't hold them and so you can—.
Speaker 4:That's the bo-weevil Democrats, the ones that were Democrats that became Republican. Complete shift over yeah.
Speaker 1:Dr Bailey pondering over here, trying to decide whether that's a worthy assessment or not.
Speaker 3:I mean I think there's more to it than that, but I think he was definitely in office when some of that switch happened. I think I would owe more of the switch to like Roe v Wade and busing and kind ofa perceived view of the Democrats in general as first of all being in favor of civil rights but also soft on communists, and I don't think he did much to dissuade evangelicals and fundamentalists. If that was the case, you're right that he caught them originally but didn't hold them. I think there were other forces at work. Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Although I mean. The part that I find most persuasive is the idea that it showed maybe evangelicals that somebody who has this philosophy can win national office right, can run for office and be successful, even though that's not what you know Jerry Falwell or someone did. They used other politicians to, and I'd say that's how most evangelicals still are engaged in politics is by choosing people who support their beliefs.
Speaker 1:Pat Robertson tried yeah.
Speaker 2:He did.
Speaker 1:Yeah that's a good point, christy. So, steve, you and I need to address the elephant in the room, though you know we've been saying mostly good things about Carter. We got you know in 70 years, carter is the only president who did not golf.
Speaker 4:That's right. He was a tennis player. That's right, he ran a jogger.
Speaker 1:He thought it was very elitist. I said he's never golfed at our course you would think otherwise, wouldn't you? That's right. But he did not golf, he did not like the message that it sent. That's true. I know that's a funny step.
Speaker 4:It made me realize when you're talking about his inability to work, he had this sort of righteous attitude. That here's my idea. But Tip O'Neill, who I think still holds the record of the longest reigning speaker of the House, served with and under a number of presidents and they asked him near the end of his career to assess his presidents and he said JFK, I loved him like a brother. Lbj, if it weren't for Vietnam. Nixon, he said I served in the House with him, played poker with him and he never paid off his poker bets. So I don't trust him.
Speaker 3:And then he got to Ford and he simply so. I don't trust him.
Speaker 4:And then he got to Ford and he simply said the right person for the time. And then he got to Carter and he said the most intelligent. But then he went on to explain how difficult it was to work with him, because after the election they come in the leadership's sitting around with a prayer breakfast and the breakfast they normally had, I assume, was quite lavish and it was like finger food. I mean, everybody's looking at the table and he leans over. One of the gentlemen says you know, mr President, we won the election. So I don't know if he was able to work well with the northern or national Democrats as well, because he did come in with that kind of attitude. I know what I'm going to do and this is what we need to do.
Speaker 1:I would imagine that's a challenge for anyone who's governor that you kind of have learned how to govern, which is a very positive trait to have.
Speaker 4:But if you have the network of relationships and that elitism, you know, I don't play golf, I'm not an elitist. It's like I'm not going to work with this old system the way it was. We're going to do something different.
Speaker 1:I remember that was something that was maybe different about Bill Clinton, that he was a governor of a tiny little state, absolutely. But there were all those FOBs out there, right, friends of Bill. He had this whole network that he had developed over the years, which is very different from what Carter had, I think. What haven't we talked about yet that we need to say he was a low?
Speaker 3:church guy. Right, what I mean? He was kind of a low church guy. Oh very much. I mean Baptist and I mean, but he personally I think he brought that sensibility into the fact. You know he wouldn't have a fancy breakfast.
Speaker 4:No alcohol.
Speaker 3:And he got rid of the presidential yacht which was used to take people out and make deals and so on. And I think in general you were asking earlier about is it interesting that he was pluralistic. But I think that his emphasis on human rights and his emphasis on religion being something that the individual themselves has to decide for themselves is consistent with that. So he wasn't threatening to more secular folks, I think because he was inclusive in his religiosity folks. I think because he was inclusive in his religiosity and he did sort of make a distinction between in part I think, between, as you said, with abortion what he personally believed and what he thought was appropriate for government to do. But a lot of that comes from him personally having those low church sensibilities I think.
Speaker 1:What would faith in the United States look like today, had the low church folks and I'm not terribly low church, but I'll include myself in this you know, took on a Carter-esque type of approach to faith American?
Speaker 3:exceptionalism would play out very differently because he just wasn't triumphalist at all and that's, I think, one of the biggest differences between how he used religion and how others do, one of the biggest differences between how he used religion and how others do. I think others see the United States as especially blessed and having the favor of God and therefore issued a kind of warrant to do whatever it wants in the world, and I think he saw the United States as hopefully being an agent for bringing about human rights. For others it was more humble, but I think people in this country they don't appreciate the prophet coming in and telling us how we're failing and falling short. They appreciate being told that we're chosen. It might have been the right moment for post-Watergate, but that type of attitude has never played out very much, especially now.
Speaker 1:He talked about the United States being in a moment of malaise. I think that was the term that he used.
Speaker 3:He didn't use that term.
Speaker 1:Oh, did he not.
Speaker 3:No, he did not use the term, but the speech became associated with that. I think maybe a pollster at the time described it as a speech that addresses the malaise of the country, and that is what the reporters picked up. Wow.
Speaker 4:It's never in there. He also made the remark that it wasn't the United States that created human rights. It was human rights that created the United States.
Speaker 1:That was one of the quotes I did not use. It was a little bit too. Obviously Carter, not the Dalai Lama, but that may have fit into?
Speaker 4:where in the world has he been the most effective or most influential? It was Africa. You're talking about low church. He's in the villages. He's walking around holding children that are getting treated for the eye blindness, river blindness and all that. But that may have played into that. But when he was a child, his father, james Sr, would not allow blacks to come to his front porch, front door, and so the bishop of the I think it was the African Methodist Episcopal would always park, his driver would park in front and Mr Carter would come out to him. But when Miss Lillian was home by herself, they came to the front door because she was a nurse and you know.
Speaker 4:You see that sort of low church to use that phrase, to be humble with people, to be the same. Because he said that when growing up his true friends were the children that worked for his father, the African-American kids, that he really didn't have any white buddies growing up and he stayed over the family and so forth and so on. But the connection to him to Africa he's got to be thought of almost as a godlike person over there with what he has done almost not single-handedly, but at the Carter Center.
Speaker 1:Yes, and just a little side note we've been using the term low church a lot and what we really mean by that is kind of the Baptist and the community church folks without a lot of liturgy, without much formality or pomp. What Without pomp? Without pomp, yeah, and this would kind of be in contrast to Catholicism and Episcopalianism and it would be more high church, much more formal, much more liturgical and more pomp in the way that they do things pomp in the way that they do things.
Speaker 3:People definitely turned away against that with Reagan, who is a thespian, after all, and loved all the trappings of glory and patriotism.
Speaker 1:And I'll try not to do this in a supercritical way and I don't want us to get hypercritical but there is a difference in the way our former and soon-to-be president approaches life in terms of very much all the pomp, right, it's like Nixon's the imperial presidency, when he wanted the special uniforms for the presidential guard and the Reagans coming in with the China, the White House, china and all the friends from Hollywood that were there with him.
Speaker 4:But, yeah, definitely much more pompous.
Speaker 2:So I had just finished reading the book that Carter wrote when he was 90, where he is I think it's called A Full Life where he looks back.
Speaker 1:And actually it was only nine-tenths of a life.
Speaker 2:But I didn't realize, apparently, when he went to Poland during his presidency and met the chancellor there who was communist at the time obviously, and you know they were having a private meeting and you know the Polish leader is like, yeah, my mom's Christian, but you know communists aren't. And Jimmy Carter asked him would you like to accept Jesus? And I had never heard that story before. It's just proselytizing in Poland.
Speaker 1:It's funny you should say that because it wasn't that story. But yesterday on CNN somebody said oh, but he let people be who they were and we've kind of had that little tone too right that he was very interfaith. But then someone corrected and said but he did proselytize, he did try to get people to accept Jesus as a Savior, which is again a very Baptist thing to do. That's awesome and you know, I guess he's always been, you know, kind of a quiet hero of mine. But when I think about you know what I'm hoping to do on Church Potluck in terms of, you know, still be very well grounded in Christian faith and promote, you know, devotion to Jesus while still exploring all the differences, he's kind of like an icon for us to look at, to try to hold both those things together somehow. Well, have we not said about Jimmy Carter that we need to say about Jimmy Carter?
Speaker 4:I like the family walking behind the horse-drawn coffin to mimic his presidential walk with Rosalind and Amy when they walked to the, I think it was the Rotunda, I assume somewhere in that area. I guess, other than Jefferson, he's the only president to ever walk the presidential inauguration.
Speaker 1:But going back to that. I vaguely I was only 11, but I do remember that there was concern about that. Some people were saying how cool, what a symbol that is. But also, hey, he was, yeah, he was.
Speaker 4:Walter Cronkite was just aghast because it was live and he says what he's out of the car you know, and so that was definitely something like you. Going back to the pomp and circumstance, that was something that we just weren't used to after the Ford Nixon era.
Speaker 3:I think it'd be impossible to talk about this man, either in his presidency or afterwards, without emphasizing that he was so profoundly devoted to peace and would do anything, you know, to secure that peace and didn't really care about, I think, the glory of the country or, to some extent, sometimes, his reputation. He really just he was concerned about the end result and so if bloodshed was spared, that is what he was devoted to. And whether or not that's what you want in a leader is an ongoing question. The question you asked earlier not that's what you want in a leader is an ongoing question. The question you asked earlier. I mean do you want someone who is willing to set that ahead of national reputation and future power? It's an ongoing question.
Speaker 1:When I think about that, with the Iranian hostage crisis right, that Carter was all about negotiation. What 400 plus days? What can we do to make sure that this is resolved without bloodshed? And he did, Reagan, I will not negotiate with terrorists, right. And there's the flat line, and it's two very different approaches to how you handle a situation, but he was negotiating with them up until, literally, the inauguration of Reagan and got them out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the irony of all that, of course, is that he was willing to use military force to at least secure the hostages, and that was a very sad incident. Maybe, the first use of Delta Force as a working unit and just again, bad circumstances.
Speaker 3:It seemed to be kind of the epitome of Carter's presidency. It was well-intended, it was well thought through and just circumstances beyond his control made it impossible. It was well thought through and just circumstances beyond his control made it impossible. But it did reveal that the United States was willing to put its military into play, despite the emphasis on peace, and I can't help but think that helped get the hostages out eventually. That he was willing to use. The message was out there, the country was in general, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow Great the country was in general. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, and you emphasize peace and I think about again post-presidency, but everything on human rights, but everything you did with Habitat for Humanity, right, oh yeah, just diving into that wholeheartedly and how his connection with Habitat for Humanity, which starts just a little bit away from Plains in America's Georgia but then ends up becoming this international phenomenon and just really committed to that and, like you said, in Africa, all the events you said you had a friend who's very committed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so this is coming back from break now, and over break I went to Texas to go to Big Bend National Park and went with a good buddy and I've been more or less sick since break and I'm still. You can tell it is I don't have the exuberance, I'm still recovering from it, but one of the manifestations of that was I had a severe case of laryngitis and so it was great for my friend.
Speaker 4:It was the first time we were ever together.
Speaker 3:And I would whisper questions and he was more than willing to sort of fill in the gap and I learned and this is the truth, I learned so much about my friend. I did not know and I knew he was involved in a ministry called Ancora Ministry. I didn't know his role in starting it by himself, but I would encourage all of the listeners honestly to check out Ancora Ministry. It's a Latin word Ancora for anchor, but you can see it by going to the website feedkidsrightnowcom. But you can see it by going to the website feedkidsrightnowcom. And all this ministry is devoted to is bringing school children food for the weekend and the evenings that they wouldn't have otherwise in Texas, but also families in Guatemala and in terms of messaging, that is the message. That is the form of proselytizing, is just the service to these children and he doesn't even meet the kids. It's through a third agent and I just saw where he works and he spends so much time trying to maximize food for every penny and it's actually worth checking out and maybe giving him a boost.
Speaker 1:Very cool, thank you. That's impressive and it is interesting and I think that this reflection, this national reflection that we're having with Carter's passing, is just reminding me of the various ways that all come back to humble servanthood. But it's, you know, the feeding of people, the environmental care, the building of houses, the efforts at peace, just it. Really his tentacles do stretch in many different directions, but they all come back to this idea of humble service for the greater good of people.
Speaker 3:And election integrity too. That was another emphasis. You know what?
Speaker 1:You tend to forget these things and so hopefully so. Do you think that this is maybe a little blip because of his passing, or do you think that over time that maybe there will be some greater, maybe that his post-presidency will start to seep into our understanding of his presidency in ways that that he's seen with a little more presidential reverence, or maybe not?
Speaker 3:I think that he's never going to be seen as a great president. Really, to be a great president you have to address some very massive problem successfully and he wasn't faced with that kind of massive war or depression. But the crises he was faced with he kind of muddled through. But I think that people realizing that it you know that it was circumstances that caused the real problems of that presidency as much as his character. So I think he'll be considered to be a middle of the road president.
Speaker 2:And I do think I mean one of his greatest achievements, I do think, is the Camp David Accords. But given all of the tension in Israel and the Middle East right now, it's even hard to see that, as you know, having been fulfilled or being the start of a path towards peace. Yeah, it's hard to imagine a huge re-envision.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's probably right, Dr Terry. Any last thoughts before we sign off here before we sign off here.
Speaker 4:I was talking to a colleague the other day and I just said that I'm just not convinced we'll ever see his likes again. From humble beginnings to what he did in the post-presidency, it's almost beyond imagination that somebody could do what he has done or even come close to it. So that will be his legacy, no doubt Very good.
Speaker 1:Thank you. So how was it for your first time? Very enjoyable, well, good. Yes, thank you to all of you for coming out and I hope you're feeling better, sir. Thank you, I can tell there's just a little down there. I want to thank our audience for sitting around the table. Hopefully you're in warmer conditions Then. I hope we have provided you with some food for thought and given you something to chew on. But we aren't done yet. After we finish the music, we always have some leftovers for you to enjoy. We have some additional thoughts we share with one another after we wrap up. So feel free to continue listening and hopefully we're going to get some much more regular here. I got some things in my life hopefully straightened out and not that there was any terrible thing, but just over committed and hopefully we'll get some regular podcasts going this semester. So looking forward to that going this semester. So looking forward to that. If you have a chance to rate and review us, please do that.
Speaker 3:But until we gather around the table next time. This has been Church Potluck. Thanks for listening, so I'm going to say it again. It's feedkidsrightnowcom, and the website name just says exactly what this is about. I'm very inspired by this and it is in, I think, keeping with Jimmy Carter's heart as well.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think you said it right the first time.
Speaker 2:Very good. How did y'all learn of Carter's passing? Did like a notification come up on your phone.
Speaker 1:I think I saw a Facebook meme. Oh, that's where I did see it Before I saw my New York Times breaking news.
Speaker 4:It was something that came up on my phone. That's exactly what it was. I said something to my wife about it.
Speaker 1:And it was very unsurprising. It was like, oh, it's happened yeah.
Speaker 4:Did you hear they asked him about before he went into hospice? His goal was to live past Mrs Carter, that he did not want to leave her alone.
Speaker 1:And I thought, wow, it kind of sounds selfish.
Speaker 2:I want to live older than my spouse.
Speaker 1:Like so many things in life, it depends on your motivations for wanting that it won't leave her alone. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I do believe she was having memory issues towards the end.
Speaker 4:Family was very private and I think people more or less respected that.
Speaker 1:That was interesting. I didn't read the full article, but I saw there was an article about how Amy Carter has chosen a very private life.
Speaker 4:Most of the Carter kids in one way or another, because I had forgotten the names of the sons. I'd forgotten that there was a Jack, I mean Chip and Jeff and all that sort of stuff. I forgot there were sons.
Speaker 1:I just remember Amy going to public school.
Speaker 2:One of them just ran for governor like not that long ago.
Speaker 1:Jason Verger, you know what that's a grandson, I guess. But still I forgot about that too. I've got his bumper sticker on something in my garage. Somebody said who's that?
Speaker 4:And I said, therein lies the problem and it didn't warrant being put up on your study next to the Carter campaign poster.
Speaker 2:I was so far about putting stuff up, and stickers were not allowed, oh so there is a former Barry Dean who is convinced that Jimmy Carter decided to run for president while visiting Barry College, krishnadeer.
Speaker 1:Krishnadeer, yeah, I actually texted him last night because he sent me a picture of when Carter was on campus. I know that part and I said I'm having trouble finding the verification. He gave me some sources. I haven't looked into them yet.
Speaker 4:So what was the event that motivated him so?
Speaker 2:he was here in 1966 for I don't know, barry was hosting something and he met Burt Lance, who was from Calhoun yeah, and becomes a big friend of his raises money for his campaign.
Speaker 1:So that's verified. He met Burt Lance here In 1966.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even if he didn't make the decision here, then that's so.
Speaker 1:that is the you can definitely say that was the catapult there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was the budget guy. Right. Yeah apparently he got. Banks yeah, and had to leave early on in the Carter presidency and Carter dug in to support him and it.
Speaker 4:Hurt him oh his poll numbers dropped tremendously because of that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you my Habitat for Humanity story about my son and I don't remember exactly his age, but somewhere probably between five and seven. And we go to Habitat for Humanity and we first watched two videos, one that was kind of the domestic building that happened and one was the international building, and they were both lots of joy, but especially the International one. That's just the exuberance that when people had their homes, just the crying and just so grateful. And so my children are watching this. And then, after you go out and have you all, did you all ever go to the Habitat for Humanity headquarters?
Speaker 1:They had about 20 different homes on site that reflected the different homes that were built in different parts of the world. Oh, and most of these were two-room buildings, Right, Not two bedrooms, just two rooms. You know, maybe twice the size of my office here, Wow, Maybe a little bit bigger, but not much. And so we're walking around and my son just looks up at me. My little five seven-year-old says Daddy, is this what they were so excited about? And I said that's exactly right, and you could just see his mind spinning in terms of that this is something super special for some folks.
Speaker 4:What he had and what they were. Yeah, oh, wow Is this what they're excited about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was just one of those special moments that you see your child realize something.
Speaker 4:There was a story where he and President and Mrs Carter, the post-presidents they were in Nepal, tibet, wherever and they caught him watching these people, these ladies, coming back with bundles of sticks and he says watch this. And he says that's their chore. They go out and hours long looking for it because it's a treeless area. And he immediately turned to Rosalind and says and think about what we burned at the farm. You know the clearing up, and that was their day's fuel. And he said think about what. So he was always going back. Is this what they get excited about? Yeah, and this is what we burn up, cleaning up the fields or whatnot. That's cool.
Speaker 4:Yeah that's cool, had you seen his house. I mean, you can't see it from the road, just pretty well.
Speaker 1:No, there's also a really big peanut there, though we took a picture right next to the humongous white peanut.
Speaker 4:When we went to his church service I asked somebody at the church. I said you know we're staying in Americas, but where can we get lunch? Plains is small even compared to Cave Spring. And they said really they laughed that's hard to do.
Speaker 3:It really is.
Speaker 4:They said there's really only one place and it's called it's either Mom's, Mother's or something of the sort downtown. So I think it was when my mom and stepdad went with us and we walked in and they showed us to the table and all of a sudden you hear something. It is the only place for Sunday lunch and here comes the Carters and they of course have a room in the back. It's nothing fancy, but they obviously privacy and they spoke to everybody and everybody respected their privacy. Nobody got up and wanted to. Selfies didn't exist then, but still, I just thought this is where he came back home.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And it never crossed their mind to go elsewhere. They're coming back home Every time they went somewhere, always back home, and yet he still had that global influence.
Speaker 4:Absolutely yeah. Some foreign dignitary came and visited them in their little ranch-style home. They enclosed the carport for his office slash woodshop and they were getting ready. It was somebody very famous. I can't recall who it was, but it was global in its connection and they went in to have lunch and they sat down and they were drinking out of Burger King plastic cups and I thought this could be it. My mom and stepdad said this because they never threw anything away and they never thought about putting on the ritz because of who they were. It's what. This is what we do, so this is what you're going to do. You're never going to see that again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of the stories he told in his book is after being elected they visit the White House and they're talking to the servants who will be cooking meals and explaining like do you think you can cook food that we will like? And they're like oh yeah, we make that all the time for the servants.
Speaker 3:For us.
Speaker 4:Yeah, for us. So I thought that was great. That's cool. I had thought about that. This is what we eat.
Speaker 1:Now I have heard that I don't know if it was Jimmy and Rosalyn or it was just Rosalyn were not terribly ingratiating to the staff, that there was a bit of a formality and coldness even.
Speaker 2:I haven't, I don't know, it doesn't seem to fit.
Speaker 4:He had a very complex personality, though I mean that wouldn't surprise me.
Speaker 3:I mean, he was not. I don't think of Jimmy Carter as having a great sense of humor right. And I think he had that kind of smile that won people over. But I think he was known as being cold and prickly in a lot of ways and I don't know if he had a lot of really close friends in the way that you know Bill Clinton was friends with everyone Too many people yeah.
Speaker 3:So too many people. That's right. So I think in some sense maybe, as Tip O'Neill pointed out, he wasn't the most likable. I mean, Tip O'Neill loved Reagan. They would just hang out and drink and chat and tell stories and talk about their Irish background or whatever.
Speaker 4:That's true.
Speaker 3:And Jimmy Carter just wouldn't have it. He would pray over you.
Speaker 1:So that's interesting. It's interesting. So Carter maybe did it more out of principle, whereas some of this happens out of relationship.
Speaker 4:Oh, that's good some of this happens out of relationship.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's good.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he probably had very good friends, but very few friends Close friends, interesting.
Speaker 1:So what did Andre think of the experience?
Speaker 2:He didn't say a whole lot about it. I think he thought that he was like I mean, you know, neither of my kids love history the way I do? They're both very non-historical, but I do think he felt like this is a part of history that I am experiencing. So, that was nice.
Speaker 1:Did he say how long he had to stand in line? That was the longest lines ever.
Speaker 2:He did not say but he sent me a picture and he's like yeah, I think I might get up to the viewing area in about 20 minutes. Did that surprise?
Speaker 4:you, I mean to the viewing area in about 20 minutes. Yeah, maybe 30 minutes or so. Did that surprise you? I mean, we're talking about him being a middle-of-the-road president, which is accurate, but the number of people coming to pay respects? They were lined up. I think they were closing the rotund at a certain time. They were standing out in freezing weather.
Speaker 2:Yeah snow, oh snow yeah, and they were.
Speaker 4:I mean, as far y'all been all these years, we're talking about doing the right thing without a political payoff.
Speaker 3:So just one small aspect of that would be and this was I can't remember, I'm embarrassed to say I don't remember if this is in the Times or CNN recently, but there was kind of a review of his policy towards migrants and how, after the Vietnam War, he opened up dramatically number of migrants from Southeast Asia who could come per month Tremendously.
Speaker 1:So is this when the Cambodians?
Speaker 3:I think it was a little bit before, but yeah, because my mother-in-law was very involved with Cambodian refugees, cambodians and Vietnamese both, and one of my dear friends from grade school came over on a boat and so I don't know if she was part of that wave. But regardless, I'm grateful, but that is not going to pay off at the poll.
Speaker 4:No, and he was told that. He was told that the American people do not want this and they did whatever they did in the 70s as far as polling, and he said it was basically I think that was the title of his book Do the Right Thing, he said this is where we're going and it was like I how to do the right thing. He said this is where we're going and it was like I forgot like a 70% increase or something.
Speaker 3:It was dramatic.
Speaker 4:It was huge. I'd forgotten about that.
Speaker 2:But it was Southeast Asia, a Vietnam legacy by the way, yeah, yeah, same with him pardoning Vietnam draft resistors as soon as he becomes president.
Speaker 4:And Ford had started that and they had his statue in the rotunda last night.
Speaker 2:Oh really.
Speaker 4:Yeah, on purpose, making sure that it was brought out, or at least because of their close relationship, they developed that from that.
Speaker 1:That'd be cool to make a list of all the things that Carter decided that did not have a political payoff. You know, or done without knowing that there would be.
Speaker 3:He was very good for the environment. He was good for the environment as governor of Georgia, and you're talking about him not being on golf courses, but the dude was on the Georgia rivers and I mean just almost religiously and canoeing. He was a huge outdoorsman and he helped make I think it's the Chattahoochee river in Atlanta. Be a national, I don't think it's a monument, but like a wildlife. Yeah, that's right Receive some sort of national park designation.
Speaker 4:Oh, and Cumberland Island. He was responsible for it becoming national seashore.
Speaker 3:But that's not going to get tons of voters You're going to have some you know environmentalists who are very impressed by that. I love it, but it's not going to win you over if you have high inflation, do you?
Speaker 4:remember he also did that in Alaska.
Speaker 3:Yes, right, yes, that's right.
Speaker 4:And he caught grief from Alaskans that he was protected because even though he made it national whatever and now they're seeing his praises because of what they have and you know. So you're right, no political payoff there, but for the right reasons.
Speaker 1:Something that sounds to me conservative. He also is kind of known as a champion of deregulation, especially transportation industry Airlines.
Speaker 4:Yeah, at&t Southern Bell. I guess I think at the time of communications Was it the Carter administration that broke up the Bell. That's what I'm trying to think. I can't remember.
Speaker 3:I know they negotiated it.
Speaker 3:Henry Kirsberg, who was one of his speech writers and then later became editor at the New Yorker. He writes about how, when Carter was going through this process of deregulation it was, you know he listened to a lot of experts and he thought it was the right thing to do. So he moved forward. Is that he gave a speech, and so they set this giant stack of papers on his desk and what they asked him to do was to push the papers into a, you know rubbish bin. And so he gets up there and he says my staff has prepared this prop.
Speaker 3:It's just really blank papers you know, but you know he just would not play that game. He was not a thespian, you know, but he would try to explain why, for the reasons of efficiency, it was the right thing to do, but you know he just wouldn't do that Reagan-esque type of thing. You know we should do this because, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:And I do think he was. I mean another way he's conservative in some ways, is fiscally right.
Speaker 1:He wasn't poor, he was big on the balance budget.
Speaker 3:yeah, and he built up the military. That's true, dramatically, you know, and so that was. Of all the claims that Reagan made against him, I think that was the one that he found most personally hurtful was the claim that he had made the United States weaker when he did build up the military a fair bit and he just felt like he didn't get credit.
Speaker 4:It's kind of ironic that he was a graduate of the Naval Academy and served on the first experimental. And Reagan made movies for the Army, but that was his World War II service movies for the Army, but that was his World War II service.
Speaker 1:It's kind of surprising how little the naval service plays into the persona of who Carter is, even though I'm sure it was very formative.
Speaker 4:He was in there for like eight years and Mrs Carter did not want to leave that life. They drove back when his father died of pancreatic cancer which has been the ruin of their family and I think they had one son, maybe at the time, but the little boy said that he was their intermediary. She would not speak to her husband the entire drive from wherever they were maybe Norfolk or wherever to Plains, Because she loved the life of the ensigns, so I guess he was a lieutenant at that time. The social aspect of it. She'd go back to tiny little planes, but they said they never went to bed mad. I find that difficult in 77 years.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you start those arguments late at night, is this?
Speaker 1:count as today, dear and this is another topic for another day, but I've never been a subscriber to that. It's like go to bed mad and if you wake up mad then you should talk about it I like that, but so often I'd wake up and say what was I mad about?
Speaker 4:It's a good thing. I didn't bring it up because I can't even remember why I'm mad. That's funny. Thank you all very much.
Speaker 1:I'm going to do my best to try to get this up and out quickly.
Speaker 2:Thank you for asking me. You made it sound more Georgia. It was good having you here.
Speaker 1:We'll have to figure out some other topics. Do you know anything else you can talk about? No, that's it. That's the breadth and width of my knowledge. Thank you all so much.
Speaker 4:The accent. I don't think that I have a terribly southern accent. So years ago my wife and son and I took a van trip. We drove through New England. We stopped in New Hampshire. My wife goes into a convenience store and she comes out laughing. She doesn't have a terrible sense of humor. She comes out and I said what's funny? She said the ladies in there were just having a hoot with my accent and she said you have to go in. I my accent and she said you have to go in. I said you've got what we need.
Speaker 1:She says no, I told them if you think I have an accent, so we're still recording. Let me tell you real quick the first time my parents come down to visit me here and it wasn't a food line, it was like a red line or something like that, it was a grocery store and someone gets on the intercom and says you know, we need Jimmy on aisle six. And my dad starts Jimmy on aisle six. I said that's not just the person talking that is everybody here?
Speaker 2:This is the exit you have in northwest Georgia this is how people talk, and he wasn't being malicious in it, no, just thought it was funny yeah.
Speaker 1:I said everyone around you. Dad is talking like this.
Speaker 4:I'm lecturing. One day in class I taught a senior elective on the american civil war and we were discussing whatever it was, and I was talking about the massacre, fort pillow in tennessee, with nathan bedford and the kids of that. There's someone who took notes. And what? What'd you say? I said, for pillow, how do you spell that? I thought, what do you mean? And they said spell it, spell it. And I said well, you know like. And I saw they went oh, pillow, oh and it's two words fort and pillow you said you worked as a certain kind of aide in the legislature.
Speaker 4:Oh, I was a page, yeah, when you first said that.
Speaker 3:I thought you said peach.
Speaker 4:Oh, I was a page, which was funny. I went there and it was in the House, not the Senate. And no, I was a paid, which was funny. I went there and it was in the House, not the Senate. And Tom Murphy both times of course, was the Speaker of the House and I would they send you at the time cigars or cigarettes or something. It's hilarious. Right Now you hear that and you'd carry it down onto the floor and it was just. I was looking at this chaos, thinking how in the world do they make laws? And I finally just gave up and went and sat up in the gallery and so for the rest of the day I just sat up and I was just mesmerized. And so Tom Murphy you know, he was the cigar chewing guy from Bremen. And so as I got older and older, I was lucky enough to be a friend with a gentleman who taught here in Floyd County, bruce Wingo.
Speaker 4:We wrote A3 Georgia history books and it's back in the 80s, I guess it was, and part of the thing he wanted. That Bruce wanted was a chapter on transportation. And I said he says we need a photo of Spaghetti, junction 285 and whatnot in Atlanta. And so that was my job so I would help write some things, but I was mainly that. So I called the DOT and I said do you? Oh yeah, we have one. And I said you know, here's what it's for. And he says now, is this for profit? I said it may be, but it will be very little.
Speaker 3:So he immediately says we can't provide it.
Speaker 4:I said what do you mean? He says, well, if it's for profit, you got to call this guy. So I called this aerial photographer no drones at the time, $900. We had no budget and I thought this is because that was going to be the lead photo. So I thought so. I called the speaker's office and a gentleman answered and I said my name is Steve Terry and a friend of mine.
Speaker 3:Bruce Wingo. I got real quiet. He says WT, bruce and I they called him.
Speaker 4:B. He says B Wingo. And I said yeah, and he said they went to school together. So the good old boy connection. I said yeah, this is what we want, but I can't afford that. And he says let me make some calls. 20 minutes later the person. And he said call me back, pietro. 20 minutes later, the same person from DOT called me and he said, I've just received a call from Speaker.
Speaker 4:Murphy's office when do I mail the photos? And his last words were would you please call Speaker Murphy's office back and tell them that?
Speaker 3:I did this.
Speaker 4:And I went this is how it works. This is how it works Very interesting.